Caliphate system and Slavery
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At least Bigmo, Rashad Khalifa, our sunni friends and I have the courage to put out opinions or thoughts for public to judge. Do you have the guts to do so? Or guts to at least comment whether you agree or not to Bigmo's argument on the concubine?
Of course not, I do not have any guts.
Salaam
Appreciate your honesty but sad to say that I do not deal with any person who does not have guts to express their own opinion or thoughts. This will be our last 'conversation' until you have the guts.
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Appreciate your honesty but sad to say that I do not deal with any person who does not have guts to express their own opinion or thoughts. This will be our last 'conversation' until you have the guts.
The issue here is whther its talking about slaves and whether the Koran allowed slavery. Your argument is that since the Koran did not explicitly ban slavery then it is allowed. There are many things the Koran did not explicitly ban but we know its wrong. Sex with animals is one of them.
There are many verses in the Koran that talked about freeing slaves. This to me is more important than just banning slavery since a person would not have slaves and not care about what others are doing. But here the person should strive to free slaves he does not own. Plus the Koran banned idol worship but still gave humans the freedom to commit shirk. Its not banning that should be looked at but what to do when it happens. When the Koran says to feed the poor, its not giving you a choice. When it says to do good with relatives and obey your parents, its not giving you a choice. So why is it with slavery you seem to see it as a choice?
A Koranist state can never legalize slavery anyways because it does not have that kind of authority. The authority to have one human own another.
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I have researched on the issue and can frankly agree on the point huruf was making.. nowhere do the quran says anything about MMA being sold and bought. What really confuse me is that if mma are war captives then there are dozens of verses in the quran talking about war but MMA are not mentioned even once in these war verses?! MMA are only mentioned in situations which has nothing to do with war. Another thing which has caused my doubt is that if MMA are slaves why are they called MMA And not slaves?!
An honest thanks to bigmo who made me do some research historically and quranically on this issue
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The issue here is whther its talking about slaves and whether the Koran allowed slavery. Your argument is that since the Koran did not explicitly ban slavery then it is allowed. There are many things the Koran did not explicitly ban but we know its wrong. Sex with animals is one of them.
There are many verses in the Koran that talked about freeing slaves. This to me is more important than just banning slavery since a person would not have slaves and not care about what others are doing. But here the person should strive to free slaves he does not own. Plus the Koran banned idol worship but still gave humans the freedom to commit shirk. Its not banning that should be looked at but what to do when it happens. When the Koran says to feed the poor, its not giving you a choice. When it says to do good with relatives and obey your parents, its not giving you a choice. So why is it with slavery you seem to see it as a choice?
A Koranist state can never legalize slavery anyways because it does not have that kind of authority. The authority to have one human own another.
The main issue is Al-Quran alone is not sufficient to guide mankind. Or in other word, Al-Quran is not complete or perfect.
Another good study case is the Forbidden or Sacred Months. What are the names of the months?
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The main issue is Al-Quran alone is not sufficient to guide mankind. Or in other word, Al-Quran is not complete or perfect.
Another good study case is the Forbidden or Sacred Months. What are the names of the months?
It sure is sufficient for me. What does knowing the months has to do with my salvation?
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It sure is sufficient for me. What does knowing the months has to do with my salvation?
You should asked the same question when we started the slavery and MMA discussion? And continue to ask the same question for each verse that you can't find the explanation inside Quran itself.
Verse 2461 There is no blame upon the blind, nor is there any blame upon the crippled, nor is there any blame upon the ill, nor is there any blame upon yourselves, if you eat at your homes, or the homes of your fathers, or the homes of your mothers, or the homes of your brothers, or the homes of your sisters, or the homes of your uncles, or the homes of your aunts, or the homes of your mothers brothers, or the homes of your mothers sisters, or that which you possess their keys, or that of your friends. You commit nothing wrong by eating together or as individuals. When you enter any home, you shall greet each other a greeting from God that is blessed and good. God thus explains the revelations for you that you may comprehend.
This where-to-eat verse suggests that Al-Quran's author not able to set priority. He kept the slavery, MMA and forbidden month cases hanging and busy detailing on less important matter.
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You should asked the same question when we started the slavery and MMA discussion? And continue to ask the same question for each verse that you can't find the explanation inside Quran itself.
Verse 2461 There is no blame upon the blind, nor is there any blame upon the crippled, nor is there any blame upon the ill, nor is there any blame upon yourselves, if you eat at your homes, or the homes of your fathers, or the homes of your mothers, or the homes of your brothers, or the homes of your sisters, or the homes of your uncles, or the homes of your aunts, or the homes of your mothers brothers, or the homes of your mothers sisters, or that which you possess their keys, or that of your friends. You commit nothing wrong by eating together or as individuals. When you enter any home, you shall greet each other a greeting from God that is blessed and good. God thus explains the revelations for you that you may comprehend.
This where-to-eat verse suggests that Al-Quran's author not able to set priority. He kept the slavery, MMA and forbidden month cases hanging and busy detailing on less important matter."We did not leave anything out of this book? 638
?Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?? 6114
?The word of your Lord is complete, in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient? 6115
?This is not fabricated ?hadith?; this confirms all previous scriptures, provides the details of everything, and is a guidance and mercy for those who believe? 12111
?We have revealed to you this book to provide explanations for everything, and guidance and mercy and good news for the submitters? 1689
"In their histories there is certainly a lesson for men of understanding. It is not a narrative which could be forged, but a verification of what is before it and a detailed explanation and a guide and a mercy to a people who believe" 12.111
"For We had certainly sent to them a Book based on knowledge, which We explained in detail , a guide and a mercy to all who believe" 7.52
"A. L. R. These are the Ayats of Revelation,- of a Qur'an that makes things clear . "
"We have not instructed the in Poetry, nor is it meet for him this is no less than a Message and a Qur'an making things clear (3669]
A.L.R. These are the symbols (or Verses) of the perspicuous Book."
"These are verses of the Book that makes things clear "
"These are verses of the Qur'an,-a book that makes things clear;
"These are Verses of the Book that makes things clear "
"By A.L.R. These are the symbols (or Verses) of the perspicuous Book. "
"These are verses of the Book that makes clear."
"These are verses of the Qur'an,-a book that makes clear;"
"These are Verses of the Book that makes things clear "
"The day will come when we will raise from every community a witness from among them, and bring you as the witness of these people. We have revealed to you this book to provide explanations for everything, and guidance, and mercy, and good news for the submitters."
Sure seems the Koran is sufficient to me.
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"We did not leave anything out of this book? 638
?Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?? 6114
?The word of your Lord is complete, in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient? 6115
?This is not fabricated ?hadith?; this confirms all previous scriptures, provides the details of everything, and is a guidance and mercy for those who believe? 12111
?We have revealed to you this book to provide explanations for everything, and guidance and mercy and good news for the submitters? 1689
"In their histories there is certainly a lesson for men of understanding. It is not a narrative which could be forged, but a verification of what is before it and a detailed explanation and a guide and a mercy to a people who believe" 12.111
"For We had certainly sent to them a Book based on knowledge, which We explained in detail , a guide and a mercy to all who believe" 7.52
"A. L. R. These are the Ayats of Revelation,- of a Qur'an that makes things clear . "
"We have not instructed the in Poetry, nor is it meet for him this is no less than a Message and a Qur'an making things clear (3669]
A.L.R. These are the symbols (or Verses) of the perspicuous Book."
"These are verses of the Book that makes things clear "
"These are verses of the Qur'an,-a book that makes things clear;
"These are Verses of the Book that makes things clear "
"By A.L.R. These are the symbols (or Verses) of the perspicuous Book. "
"These are verses of the Book that makes clear."
"These are verses of the Qur'an,-a book that makes clear;"
"These are Verses of the Book that makes things clear "
"The day will come when we will raise from every community a witness from among them, and bring you as the witness of these people. We have revealed to you this book to provide explanations for everything, and guidance, and mercy, and good news for the submitters."
Here are the contradictions of Al-Quran. Leave nothing, full of details, makes things clear etc. but its believers until today can't come to an agreement on MMA, slavery, forbidden months etc.
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Here are the contradictions of Al-Quran. Leave nothing, full of details, makes things clear etc. but its believers until today can't come to an agreement on MMA, slavery, forbidden months etc.
you are right. These questions too came to my mind before and I was wondering , may be after all Quran is incomplete or some verses are taken out by earlier generations like Rashad khalifa did. Then when I ponder over following Ayats , my mind found peace.
37 He is the One who sent down to you the Scripture, from which there are governing verses; they are the essence of the Scripture; and others which are similar. As for those who have disease in their hearts, they will follow what is similar from it seeking to confuse, and seeking to derive an interpretation. But none know its interpretation except God and those who are well founded in knowledge; they say "We believe in it, all is from our Lord." And none will remember except the people of understanding.
There is an Ayat , can.t find it now , which tells you to ask if you don.t know.
4142 No falsehood could enter it, presently or afterwards; a revelation from a Most Wise, Praiseworthy. (keeps open the possibility of something taken out from it)
I think MMA, slavery, forbidden months etc. were important for the people when Quran was revealed. As these things are not important any more , Allah Makes us forget about those Ayats regarding these things. Allah knows best.
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you are right. These questions too came to my mind before and I was wondering , may be after all Quran is incomplete or some verses are taken out by earlier generations like Rashad khalifa did. Then when I ponder over following Ayats , my mind found peace.
37 He is the One who sent down to you the Scripture, from which there are governing verses; they are the essence of the Scripture; and others which are similar. As for those who have disease in their hearts, they will follow what is similar from it seeking to confuse, and seeking to derive an interpretation. But none know its interpretation except God and those who are well founded in knowledge; they say "We believe in it, all is from our Lord." And none will remember except the people of understanding.
There is an Ayat , can.t find it now , which tells you to ask if you don.t know.
4142 No falsehood could enter it, presently or afterwards; a revelation from a Most Wise, Praiseworthy. (keeps open the possibility of something taken out from it)
I think MMA, slavery, forbidden months etc. were important for the people when Quran was revealed. As these things are not important any more , Allah Makes us forget about those Ayats regarding these things. Allah knows best.
Right. Things like MMA are tests the Quran is doing to see what future generations will do and what kind of spin they will try to put in the Koranic verses. We are told that we must never specualte on verses that are not made clear to us. Things like forbidden months are rituals, like haj and ramadan. The Koran reminds us in verse 2.177 that rituals like Qibla are a means to an end and not an end by themselves. When the Koran is says its detailed and clear, it means that everything we neeed for our salvation is made clear to us. You are also right to say that the Koran is timeless and many things that may not beclear to us now maybe so in the future as many things may not be clear to us now but were for the people of past clear. In the end what we need for our salvation is made clear to us, as verse 2.177 tells us. In the verse freeing slaves is clearly mentioned as a way for our to gain salvation. Somehow some still see it as a choice to free slaves when its clearly not. Charity in the Koran is not a choice but an order.
1071-7] Do you know who really rejects the faith? That is the one who mistreats the orphans. And does not advocate the feeding of the poor. And woe to those who observe the contact prayers (Salat) - who are totally heedless of their prayers. They only show off. And they forbid charity.
You shall give the due alms to the relatives, the needy, the poor, and the travelling alien, but do not be excessive, extravagant.
74.49. And (ask) of the Sinners "What led you into Hell Fire?" They will say "We were not of those who prayed; "Nor were we of those who fed the indigent; "But we used to talk vanities with vain talkers; "And we used to deny the Day of Judgment, "Until there came to us (the Hour) that is certain." Then will no intercession of (any) intercessors profit them.
So freeing the slaves when we can is not a choice but is placed by the Koran in the same category as feeding the poor and orphans and relatives. These are the saviors on the day of Judgement.
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Some people seem to feel that God, if He speaks in the Qur'an rather than in the Bible or the Universal declaration of Human rights, or whatever "document" they deem respectable as opposed to the Qur'an, that God should pander to their pickiness and feeling of the Qur'an, in order to be forgiven, having to be up to their most suspicious expectation of what a good god should do and reveal in order to win their approval.
God does not need anybody's approval. If one is are interested he should go and try to learn with sincerity, if one is not interested in learning and knowing but on exercising as an allknowing judge, he will waste his time. God does not pander to those who rank themselves as judges and are full of themselves.
Salaam
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Some people seem to feel that God, if He speaks in the Qur'an rather than in the Bible or the Universal declaration of Human rights, or whatever "document" they deem respectable as opposed to the Qur'an, that God should pander to their pickiness and feeling of the Qur'an, in order to be forgiven, having to be up to their most suspicious expectation of what a good god should do and reveal in order to win their approval.
God does not need anybody's approval. If one is are interested he should go and try to learn with sincerity, if one is not interested in learning and knowing but on exercising as an allknowing judge, he will waste his time. God does not pander to those who rank themselves as judges and are full of themselves.
Salaam
What I have noticed by some Muslims is that they are not really able to believe The Koranist arguments are Koranic. They have convinced themselves that Islam has no freedom and is outdated that they are not able to comprehend that our beliefs are Koranic and not some secular enlightenement ideas. I have seen this particularly among the liberal intellectuals in the Muslim world.
I think this is why they try to find some oxygen when they try to critique the Koran. They look for anything they can to find some areas that they can critique. Many of them have adopted the historicity arguments where the best they can come up with is the laws of the Koran are outdated and need to be modernized so to speak. I think this has a lot to do with inferiority complex that made many Muslims give up about Islam's ability to be compatible with modernity and the concept of democracy and human rights etc. Liberal intellectuals generally want a secular Sunni/Shia Islam. This is of course not acceptable to us since our differences with these religious sects goes beyond secularism and public policy. They are not able to comprehend how we dare attack some of the taboos they were brought up with.
Secularism does not actually do anything but limit religion in the public sphere and leaves it to individuals. This is not enough for us. We have an alternative interpretation of Islam.
I think many intellectuals want to discredit us as they have convinced themsleves that Western democracy is the only way foreward. How else can u explain their often flimsy arguments and desperate critiques? Their selective quotations from the Koran and their continious insistence on hadith inspired interpretations tells me they are desperate to discredit us as being Koranic.
I am not against democracy, and anyways given the Koran's fanatic emphasis on freedom is not really an issue to us since a democracy is a system that we can easly adapt to unlike the Islamic sects who have to deal with the numerous contradictions between their sectarian teachings and a democracy. However democracy does not change religions but limits them in the public sphere.
But our agenda as Koranist is much larger than that. Muslim intellectuals detect that and that scares them.
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you are right. These questions too came to my mind before and I was wondering , may be after all Quran is incomplete or some verses are taken out by earlier generations like Rashad khalifa did. Then when I ponder over following Ayats , my mind found peace.
37 He is the One who sent down to you the Scripture, from which there are governing verses; they are the essence of the Scripture; and others which are similar. As for those who have disease in their hearts, they will follow what is similar from it seeking to confuse, and seeking to derive an interpretation. But none know its interpretation except God and those who are well founded in knowledge; they say "We believe in it, all is from our Lord." And none will remember except the people of understanding.
There is an Ayat , can.t find it now , which tells you to ask if you don.t know.
4142 No falsehood could enter it, presently or afterwards; a revelation from a Most Wise, Praiseworthy. (keeps open the possibility of something taken out from it)
I think MMA, slavery, forbidden months etc. were important for the people when Quran was revealed. As these things are not important any more , Allah Makes us forget about those Ayats regarding these things. Allah knows best.
Is this the ayat that you are looking for?
1643 And We did not send any except men before you whom We inspired, so ask the people who have received the Reminder if you do not know.
This is what other people are doing or earlier people did. They don't understand some of the ayat in the Quran and they went to ask other people they think able to give them the explanation. From here, this ayat, starts all the ulama, imam, mazhab etc.
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Right. Things like MMA are tests the Quran is doing to see what future generations will do and what kind of spin they will try to put in the Koranic verses. We are told that we must never specualte on verses that are not made clear to us...........
This kind of thinking or comment can be observed in the forbidden months issue or threads and for you, after I brought up the forbidden month issue.
Quranists usually are not easily giving up type of people. They really demand or insist for very good explanations, arguments and 'dalil' before accepting something because they appreciate knowledge which give them advantage. Below is one of the evidences;
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603264.10
If the MMA is a test then you are the first to fail because you had associated Al-Quran with other kitab or hadith. I think with the above comments, your 'concubine' theory is no longer valid. If Quran does not explain something in details then Quranists just have to forget about it.
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This kind of thinking or comment can be observed in the forbidden months issue or threads and for you, after I brought up the forbidden month issue.
Quranists usually are not easily giving up type of people. They really demand or insist for very good explanations, arguments and 'dalil' before accepting something because they appreciate knowledge which give them advantage. Below is one of the evidences;
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603264.10
If the MMA is a test then you are the first to fail because you had associated Al-Quran with other kitab or hadith. I think with the above comments, your 'concubine' theory is no longer valid. If Quran does not explain something in details then Quranists just have to forget about it.
you misinterpret the brothers answer. Quranist are very honest, if there is something they dont know they admit it or they admit the disagreements. We do not fear disagreements.
Al quran it self says 'ask the one who knows' so it is not a sin to seek knowledge in the old testament as brother bigmo did. What is forbidden is to consider other books divine, which is the case with sunnies and shiites who consider ahadith for being divine LIKE the quran.
His understanding of concubines are not that bad. I can to a large extent agree to that. Concubine is a marriage, like we have something similar to marriage in europe as well. However it should be noted that women can have male concubines as well as stated in surah noor.