Caliphate system and Slavery
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Some people seem to feel that God, if He speaks in the Qur'an rather than in the Bible or the Universal declaration of Human rights, or whatever "document" they deem respectable as opposed to the Qur'an, that God should pander to their pickiness and feeling of the Qur'an, in order to be forgiven, having to be up to their most suspicious expectation of what a good god should do and reveal in order to win their approval.
God does not need anybody's approval. If one is are interested he should go and try to learn with sincerity, if one is not interested in learning and knowing but on exercising as an allknowing judge, he will waste his time. God does not pander to those who rank themselves as judges and are full of themselves.
Salaam
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Some people seem to feel that God, if He speaks in the Qur'an rather than in the Bible or the Universal declaration of Human rights, or whatever "document" they deem respectable as opposed to the Qur'an, that God should pander to their pickiness and feeling of the Qur'an, in order to be forgiven, having to be up to their most suspicious expectation of what a good god should do and reveal in order to win their approval.
God does not need anybody's approval. If one is are interested he should go and try to learn with sincerity, if one is not interested in learning and knowing but on exercising as an allknowing judge, he will waste his time. God does not pander to those who rank themselves as judges and are full of themselves.
Salaam
What I have noticed by some Muslims is that they are not really able to believe The Koranist arguments are Koranic. They have convinced themselves that Islam has no freedom and is outdated that they are not able to comprehend that our beliefs are Koranic and not some secular enlightenement ideas. I have seen this particularly among the liberal intellectuals in the Muslim world.
I think this is why they try to find some oxygen when they try to critique the Koran. They look for anything they can to find some areas that they can critique. Many of them have adopted the historicity arguments where the best they can come up with is the laws of the Koran are outdated and need to be modernized so to speak. I think this has a lot to do with inferiority complex that made many Muslims give up about Islam's ability to be compatible with modernity and the concept of democracy and human rights etc. Liberal intellectuals generally want a secular Sunni/Shia Islam. This is of course not acceptable to us since our differences with these religious sects goes beyond secularism and public policy. They are not able to comprehend how we dare attack some of the taboos they were brought up with.
Secularism does not actually do anything but limit religion in the public sphere and leaves it to individuals. This is not enough for us. We have an alternative interpretation of Islam.
I think many intellectuals want to discredit us as they have convinced themsleves that Western democracy is the only way foreward. How else can u explain their often flimsy arguments and desperate critiques? Their selective quotations from the Koran and their continious insistence on hadith inspired interpretations tells me they are desperate to discredit us as being Koranic.
I am not against democracy, and anyways given the Koran's fanatic emphasis on freedom is not really an issue to us since a democracy is a system that we can easly adapt to unlike the Islamic sects who have to deal with the numerous contradictions between their sectarian teachings and a democracy. However democracy does not change religions but limits them in the public sphere.
But our agenda as Koranist is much larger than that. Muslim intellectuals detect that and that scares them.
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you are right. These questions too came to my mind before and I was wondering , may be after all Quran is incomplete or some verses are taken out by earlier generations like Rashad khalifa did. Then when I ponder over following Ayats , my mind found peace.
37 He is the One who sent down to you the Scripture, from which there are governing verses; they are the essence of the Scripture; and others which are similar. As for those who have disease in their hearts, they will follow what is similar from it seeking to confuse, and seeking to derive an interpretation. But none know its interpretation except God and those who are well founded in knowledge; they say "We believe in it, all is from our Lord." And none will remember except the people of understanding.
There is an Ayat , can.t find it now , which tells you to ask if you don.t know.
4142 No falsehood could enter it, presently or afterwards; a revelation from a Most Wise, Praiseworthy. (keeps open the possibility of something taken out from it)
I think MMA, slavery, forbidden months etc. were important for the people when Quran was revealed. As these things are not important any more , Allah Makes us forget about those Ayats regarding these things. Allah knows best.
Is this the ayat that you are looking for?
1643 And We did not send any except men before you whom We inspired, so ask the people who have received the Reminder if you do not know.
This is what other people are doing or earlier people did. They don't understand some of the ayat in the Quran and they went to ask other people they think able to give them the explanation. From here, this ayat, starts all the ulama, imam, mazhab etc.
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Right. Things like MMA are tests the Quran is doing to see what future generations will do and what kind of spin they will try to put in the Koranic verses. We are told that we must never specualte on verses that are not made clear to us...........
This kind of thinking or comment can be observed in the forbidden months issue or threads and for you, after I brought up the forbidden month issue.
Quranists usually are not easily giving up type of people. They really demand or insist for very good explanations, arguments and 'dalil' before accepting something because they appreciate knowledge which give them advantage. Below is one of the evidences;
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603264.10
If the MMA is a test then you are the first to fail because you had associated Al-Quran with other kitab or hadith. I think with the above comments, your 'concubine' theory is no longer valid. If Quran does not explain something in details then Quranists just have to forget about it.
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This kind of thinking or comment can be observed in the forbidden months issue or threads and for you, after I brought up the forbidden month issue.
Quranists usually are not easily giving up type of people. They really demand or insist for very good explanations, arguments and 'dalil' before accepting something because they appreciate knowledge which give them advantage. Below is one of the evidences;
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603264.10
If the MMA is a test then you are the first to fail because you had associated Al-Quran with other kitab or hadith. I think with the above comments, your 'concubine' theory is no longer valid. If Quran does not explain something in details then Quranists just have to forget about it.
you misinterpret the brothers answer. Quranist are very honest, if there is something they dont know they admit it or they admit the disagreements. We do not fear disagreements.
Al quran it self says 'ask the one who knows' so it is not a sin to seek knowledge in the old testament as brother bigmo did. What is forbidden is to consider other books divine, which is the case with sunnies and shiites who consider ahadith for being divine LIKE the quran.
His understanding of concubines are not that bad. I can to a large extent agree to that. Concubine is a marriage, like we have something similar to marriage in europe as well. However it should be noted that women can have male concubines as well as stated in surah noor.
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This kind of thinking or comment can be observed in the forbidden months issue or threads and for you, after I brought up the forbidden month issue.
Quranists usually are not easily giving up type of people. They really demand or insist for very good explanations, arguments and 'dalil' before accepting something because they appreciate knowledge which give them advantage. Below is one of the evidences;
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603264.10
If the MMA is a test then you are the first to fail because you had associated Al-Quran with other kitab or hadith. I think with the above comments, your 'concubine' theory is no longer valid. If Quran does not explain something in details then Quranists just have to forget about it.
The whole point I was making is that we do not need to know what MMA is for our salvation. The verse you quoted tells us these kinds of speculations are made by those who have an agenda to legalize stuff and introduuce stuff in Islam for their own benefits. I have said before we can not create a legal framework from verses that are nort made clear to us. There are plenty of verses that are clear to us that we may not debate or discuss here too often because its clear to us. Its just our way of understanding the Koran. We try to see what we can get most of the Koran. Most Quranist enjoy discussing and debating Koranic verses. However for salvation we do not need to know everything the Koran says since the Koran is filled with mysteries as life is filled with mysteries and its a scripture that is divine in nature and only God would know all of its meanings.
Unlike the sects we do not use verses that are not made clear to us to impose on others.
Can you imagine if MMA was not slaves the crimes these Sunnis and Shias created? The millions of lives being devestated. The kindappings from their homes, the anguish of the mothers and fathers not knowing where their sons and daughters went and whether they are alive, the countless women who were violated and forced into situations they despised, the many dreams shattered only to see their children meet the same fate as theirs. Can you imagine that?
Maybe this is what you should be criticizing.
Its your desperate attempt to find a reason why the Quran is not sufficient that surprises me. Because your argument of "why did not the Koran then say this" or "then why would the Koran say this but not that" argument tells me that you are desperate. Often you would accept hadith inspired interpretations of the Koran since they are easier to criticize. I have seen this done by many Christians who try to undermine us as being "unIslamic" who are influenced by Western thoughts. This is because its easier to critique Sunni and Shia Islam than it is to critique the Koranist. Many Westerners also want to believe that its only Christian European civilization that can inspire freedom and equality. They therefore have a need to undermine us. How else can u explain their continous attempt to deny that our views and analysis are not taken from an ice cream shop but form the Koran itself? I think many people just can't believe the Koran is saying what its saying.
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Slavery was existed in Islam because the Muslim authorities wanted it and they relied on the verse of the Koran about "ma malakat aymunukum"(right hand possess) to justify that.
That's wat ive always been wondering... why DOES this verse allow it? I mean surely the Holy Book condemns slavery.. but why not here? Why are men allowed to have sexual relations with their wives as well as those your right hand possesses? Just seems wrong.
Peace. -
That's wat ive always been wondering... why DOES this verse allow it? I mean surely the Holy Book condemns slavery.. but why not here? Why are men allowed to have sexual relations with their wives as well as those your right hand possesses? Just seems wrong.
Peace.The reasoning for why there is a demarcation is because MMA is a different set/subset depending on how we see it, needs to be clarified because there are variations in what can and can't be done in certain cases. Quran doesn't allow slavery once and for all, it condemns it by showing it is oppression and MMA are not slaves. There is to be no sexual congress without marriage unequivocally. 424/2433/43. Former is about independent/free women contrasted with women under your oaths of protection etc. The MMA seems to be a subset of people who are supposed/pledged to be taken care of/protected, with/without families, who aren't financially well off or for other charitable etc reasons 436. Notice the categories and commonalities. Peace.
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That's wat ive always been wondering... why DOES this verse allow it? I mean surely the Holy Book condemns slavery.. but why not here? Why are men allowed to have sexual relations with their wives as well as those your right hand possesses? Just seems wrong.
Peace.There are many verses that talked about freedom that were abrogated. Many isisues like stoning adulterers are not found in the Koran and in fact contradicts a life for a life and yet was introduced by the sects. Many verses that talked about Christians and Jews generally were made specific and many verses that talked about specific Jews and Christians were made general. In the end these sects care about what hadiths tell them and they simply adjust the Koran accordingly. So what the Koran would have said or noy would have never meade a single difference to them so we must not waste our time with what these sects did or would have done.
From a Sunni website
Authority of the Sunnah
- Definition of the Sunnah, and the History of the Sunnah, and the Efforts of the Scholars in verifying the Sunnah.
One thing that must be mentioned here is that many Muslims get confused between the general term of Sunnah, which includes all the sayings and actions of the Prophet, and between the term Sunnah when used in fiqh issues where it means "recommended". For example, since the Prophet used to pray 2 rak'at before fajr prayer, we say that it is Sunnah for us to pray these 2 rak'at, which means that it is recommended to pray these 2 rak'at and not obligatory.
In this article we are discussing the Sunnah in the general sense, and not in the fiqh sense. We are talking about the Sunnah as a source of Islamic legislation. Therefore, when we say it is obligatory to follow the Sunnah, we are talking about the Prophets commands for us in the Sunnah and not about the recommended actions such as the 2 rak'at before fajr for example. Please make sure that you understand the difference here.
- What does the Authority of the Sunnah mean?
In Arabic, the wording is Hojjiyat As-Sunnah. This basically means that the Sunnah can be used as evidence in Shariah, and that Allah (swt) has ordered us to follow the Sunnah and avoid anything it has prohibited for us. In other words, this means that it is obligatory on every Muslim to believe in what the Sunnah tells us, and to act according to the Sunnah in all aspects of our life and ensure that we do not commit any actions that contradict the Sunnah.
- The Sunnah and it's place in relation to the Holy Qur'an
The Sunnah can be divided into three parts
Confirming Sunnah. This is the part of the Sunnah that confirms what is in the Qur'an, and reinforces it.
Explanatory Sunnah. This part of the Sunnah explains the holy Qur'an and the various Shariah injunctions that come in the holy Qur'an. It includes four parts expanding on what is mentioned only briefly in the holy Qur'an, explaining difficult verses or issues, putting limits on general statements in the Qur'an and finally specifying generalities in the Qur'an.
Sunnah that brings new legislation. This part of the Sunnah is the one that brings new legislation, and new Shariah that is not in the holy Qur'an.
http//www.al-islami.com/islam/authority_of_sunnah.php
So what the Koran says or would have said has no bearing to them.
This reminds of this verse
10.15. But when Our Clear Signs are rehearsed unto them, those who rest not their hope on their meeting with Us, Say "Bring us a reading other than this, or change this," Say "It is not for me, of my own accord, to change it I follow naught but what is revealed unto me if I were to disobey my Lord, I should myself fear the penalty of a Great Day (to come)."
Basically what the Koran is saying is Muhammad does not have the authority to do what these sects claim the Sunnah came to do. Which is to bring forth another revelation that can change many aspects of the Koran. So what the Quran says or does not say is not relevant to these sects.
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The whole point I was making is that we do not need to know what MMA is for our salvation. The verse you quoted tells us these kinds of speculations are made by those who have an agenda to legalize stuff and introduuce stuff in Islam for their own benefits. I have said before we can not create a legal framework from verses that are nort made clear to us. There are plenty of verses that are clear to us that we may not debate or discuss here too often because its clear to us. Its just our way of understanding the Koran. We try to see what we can get most of the Koran. Most Quranist enjoy discussing and debating Koranic verses. However for salvation we do not need to know everything the Koran says since the Koran is filled with mysteries as life is filled with mysteries and its a scripture that is divine in nature and only God would know all of its meanings.
Unlike the sects we do not use verses that are not made clear to us to impose on others.
Can you imagine if MMA was not slaves the crimes these Sunnis and Shias created? The millions of lives being devestated. The kindappings from their homes, the anguish of the mothers and fathers not knowing where their sons and daughters went and whether they are alive, the countless women who were violated and forced into situations they despised, the many dreams shattered only to see their children meet the same fate as theirs. Can you imagine that?
Maybe this is what you should be criticizing.
Its your desperate attempt to find a reason why the Quran is not sufficient that surprises me. Because your argument of "why did not the Koran then say this" or "then why would the Koran say this but not that" argument tells me that you are desperate. Often you would accept hadith inspired interpretations of the Koran since they are easier to criticize. I have seen this done by many Christians who try to undermine us as being "unIslamic" who are influenced by Western thoughts. This is because its easier to critique Sunni and Shia Islam than it is to critique the Koranist. Many Westerners also want to believe that its only Christian European civilization that can inspire freedom and equality. They therefore have a need to undermine us. How else can u explain their continous attempt to deny that our views and analysis are not taken from an ice cream shop but form the Koran itself? I think many people just can't believe the Koran is saying what its saying.
Well said. bravo bravo
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Is this the ayat that you are looking for?
1643 And We did not send any except men before you whom We inspired, so ask the people who have received the Reminder if you do not know.
This is what other people are doing or earlier people did. They don't understand some of the ayat in the Quran and they went to ask other people they think able to give them the explanation. From here, this ayat, starts all the ulama, imam, mazhab etc.
Yes . this is the Ayat. Thank you.
You should ask others and listen carefully , what everyone says. But at the end , you have to use your own brain/logic to decide and accept the best of the opinions you get. Not to follow the all the ulama, imam, mazhab etc blindly.
3918 The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom God has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.
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Salaam,
Here is a part of sura Yusuf, dealing with the subject.
InshaAllah it helps to understand the subject a little better pr1219 And a traveling caravan came and they sent their man to draw water, but when he drew he said "Good news, there is a boy!" So they hid him as merchandise. And God is aware of what they did.
1220 And they sold him for a low price, a few coins of silver, and they regarded him as insignificant.
1221 And he from Egypt who had bought him said to his wife "Make his stay generous, perhaps he will benefit us or we may take him as a son." And it was thus that We established Joseph in the land and to teach him the interpretation of the narrations. And God has full control over his situation, but most of the people do not know.
1222 And when he reached his independence, We gave him judgement and knowledge. It is thus that We reward the good doers.
1223 And the woman, in whose house he was staying, attempted to seduce him away from himself. And she closed the doors and said "I have prepared myself for you." He said "I seek refuge with God, He is my Lord, He has made good my stay; the wicked do not succeed."
1224 And she desired him and he desired her, if it had not been that he saw the proof of his Lord; it was thus that We turned evil and immorality away from him; he is of Our loyal servants.
1225 And as they rushed towards the door, she tore his shirt from behind; and they found her master at the door. She said "What is the punishment for he who wanted evil for your family? Is it not that he be imprisoned or punished painfully?"
1226b He said "She is the one who seduced me from myself," and a witness from her family gave testimony "If his shirt was torn from the front, then she is truthful, and he is the liar."
1227 "And if his shirt is torn from behind, then she is lying, and he is truthful."
1228 So when he saw that his shirt was torn from behind, he said "This is from your female planning, your female planning is indeed great!"
1229 "Joseph, turn away from this. And you woman, seek forgiveness for your sin; you were of the wrongdoers."
1230 And some women in the city said "The wife of the governor is trying to seduce her young man from himself; she is taken by love. We see her clearly misguided."
1231 So when she heard of their scheming, she sent for them and prepared a banquet for them, and she gave each one of them a knife. And she said "Come out to them," so when they saw him they exalted him and cut their hands, and they said "Praise be to God, this is not a human being, but a blessed angel!"
1232 She said "This is the one whom you blamed me for, and I have seduced him from himself but he refused. And if he does not do as I command him, he will be imprisoned, and he will be one of those disgraced."
1233 He said "My Lord, prison is better to me than what they are inviting me to do. And if You do not turn their plans away from me, I will fall for them and be of the ignorant."
1234 So his Lord responded to him, and He turned away their plans from him. He is the Hearer, the Knowledgeable.
1235 But it appealed to them, even after they had seen the signs, to imprison him for a time.
Salaam and may Allah increase us in knowledge,
Bender -
Is this the ayat that you are looking for?
1643 And We did not send any except men before you whom We inspired, so ask the people who have received the Reminder if you do not know.
This is what other people are doing or earlier people did. They don't understand some of the ayat in the Quran and they went to ask other people they think able to give them the explanation. From here, this ayat, starts all the ulama, imam, mazhab etc.
The verse you mentioned was concerning the pagans of Mecca and their asking why God does not send angels and sends humans as messengers. Here the Koran says to look into the previous scriptures and see if God send anything but humans as messengers. Apparently the pagans of Mecca found the notion of God sending humans as strange. Humans who very much looked normal and ordinary.
Thats what I did and looked at the previous scriptures, however I do not think that a Koranist state can ever rely on anything except explicit verses of the Koran when it comes to anything that concerns the general public. But i do rely on previous scriptures as better understanding.
There is nothing wrong for a Koranist to accept any source if it does not contradict the Koran. But only explicit verses of the Koran is binding.
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The verse you mentioned was concerning the pagans of Mecca and their asking why God does not send angels and sends humans as messengers. Here the Koran says to look into the previous scriptures and see if God send anything but humans as messengers. Apparently the pagans of Mecca found the notion of God sending humans as strange. Humans who very much looked normal and ordinary.
Are you referring to verse 1643? If yes, show me the relation with Mecca's pagan?
Thats what I did and looked at the previous scriptures, however I do not think that a Koranist state can ever rely on anything except explicit verses of the Koran when it comes to anything that concerns the general public. But i do rely on previous scriptures as better understanding.
There is nothing wrong for a Koranist to accept any source if it does not contradict the Koran. But only explicit verses of the Koran is binding.
So there is nothing wrong also for the rest of the sects to accept any source if it does not contradict the Koran.
Back to the seriousness of Al-Quran to abolish slavery. I'm not going to ask what are the punishments Al-Quran had imposed for those who capture, sell and keep slaves but I want to ask why there is no punishment at all for these wrongdoers or criminals in Al-Quran?
Unless you disagree criminals need to be punished in this life to keep the order in the community then you don't have to respond to this question and the next one.
Also what are the suitable punishments Quranists - as a group not individual - want to impose on these wrongdoers?
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Are you referring to verse 1643? If yes, show me the relation with Mecca's pagan?
So there is nothing wrong also for the rest of the sects to accept any source if it does not contradict the Koran.
Back to the seriousness of Al-Quran to abolish slavery. I'm not going to ask what are the punishments Al-Quran had imposed for those who capture, sell and keep slaves but I want to ask why there is no punishment at all for these wrongdoers or criminals in Al-Quran?
Unless you disagree criminals need to be punished in this life to keep the order in the community then you don't have to respond to this question and the next one.
Also what are the suitable punishments Quranists - as a group not individual - want to impose on these wrongdoers?
16.43-44. And before thee also the apostles We sent were but men, to whom We granted inspiration if ye realise this not, ask of those who possess the Message. (We sent them) with Clear Signs and Books of dark prophecies; and We have sent down unto thee (also) the Message;that thou mayest explain clearly to men what is sent for them, and that they may give thought.
Here it says just like we sent before you the message we also sent you the message. Those who possess the message is generally the Jews and Christians.
Of course the prophet of the Koran could not be told to ask himself. so the message here, or rather the zikr here is the previous scriptures. The Koran refers to the previous scriptures as a zikr, reminder. We are told
5.14 From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done.
We are also told
10.93-94 We settled the Children of Israel in a beautiful dwelling-place, and provided for them sustenance of the best it was after knowledge had been granted to them, that they fell into schisms. Verily Allah will judge between them as to the schisms amongst them, on the Day of Judgment. If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord so be in no wise of those in doubt.
As far as punishment of slavery, any punishment in the Koran must fulfil certain criteria. It must be a punishment for a crime that someone has inflicted on someone else, it must be a punishment that fits the crime (eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth) and it must be a punishment inflicted on the person who made the crime and not on someon else as the Koran tells us not let someone else carry another person's burden (no tribalism) and it must be crime someone commited intentionally. If its not intentional than the person who was wronged has a chance to forgive as an act of charity.
These are the legal framework laid out in the Koran. Any punsihment must fit the crime. The Koran rejects preventive punishment as the Sunnis and Shias do. Preventive punishment usually takes the form of an eye for an eye lash and a tooth for a jaw. Since the goal here is not justice but fear. The Koran orders justice. Justice based on qist( equity). This is why the symbol of justice is always the scale. Equal proportion.
Anyways Sunnis attach slavery with prisoners of war. The Koran gave two options for prisoners of war (freedom or ransom) and considered prisoners of war and act of charity.
765.-11 As to the Righteous, they shall drink of a Cup (of Wine) mixed with Kafur,- A Fountain where the Devotees of Allah do drink, making it flow in unstinted abundance. They perform (their) vows, and they fear a Day whose evil flies far and wide. And they feed, for the love of Allah, the indigent, the orphan, and the captive,- (Saying),"We feed you for the sake of Allah alone no reward do we desire from you, nor thanks. "We only fear a Day of distressful Wrath from the side of our Lord." But Allah will deliver them from the evil of that Day, and will shed over them a Light of Beauty and (blissful) Joy.
Can u imagine then selling captives as slaves? Sunnis even allowed execution of a captive if the dictator desires. Its a dictatorial sect establishmed by dictators for the dictators. It has nothing to with Islam.
Treatment of prisoners-of-war in Islam
Prisoners should be detained until it is decided what is the best move. The ruler of the Muslims should detain prisoners until he decides what is in the Muslims? best interests. He may ransom them for money, or exchange them for Muslim prisoners, or release them for nothing in return, or distribute them among the Muslims as slaves, or kill the men, but not the women and children, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) forbade killing the latter. The purpose behind detaining prisoners is so that the Muslims may be protected from their evil. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) used to enjoin the Muslims to treat prisoners well, whereas the Romans and those who came before them the Assyrians and Pharaohs, all used to put out their prisoners? eyes with hot irons, and flay them alive, feeding their skins to dogs, such that the prisoners preferred death to
http//islamqa.info/en/ref/13241
The blue parts are from the Koran, the red from the Sunnah.
Need I say more?
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16.43-44. And before thee also the apostles We sent were but men, to whom We granted inspiration if ye realise this not, ask of those who possess the Message. (We sent them) with Clear Signs and Books of dark prophecies; and We have sent down unto thee (also) the Message;that thou mayest explain clearly to men what is sent for them, and that they may give thought.
Here it says just like we sent before you the message we also sent you the message. Those who possess the message is generally the Jews and Christians.
Of course the prophet of the Koran could not be told to ask himself. so the message here, or rather the zikr here is the previous scriptures. The Koran refers to the previous scriptures as a zikr, reminder. We are told
5.14 From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done.
We are also told
10.93-94 We settled the Children of Israel in a beautiful dwelling-place, and provided for them sustenance of the best it was after knowledge had been granted to them, that they fell into schisms. Verily Allah will judge between them as to the schisms amongst them, on the Day of Judgment. If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord so be in no wise of those in doubt.
My question related to this issue was;
Are you referring to verse 1643? If yes, show me the relation with Mecca's pagan?
As far as punishment of slavery, any punishment in the Koran must fulfil certain criteria. It must be a punishment for a crime that someone has inflicted on someone else, it must be a punishment that fits the crime (eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth) and it must be a punishment inflicted on the person who made the crime and not on someon else as the Koran tells us not let someone else carry another person's burden (no tribalism) and it must be crime someone commited intentionally. If its not intentional than the person who was wronged has a chance to forgive as an act of charity.
These are the legal framework laid out in the Koran. Any punsihment must fit the crime. The Koran rejects preventive punishment as the Sunnis and Shias do. Preventive punishment usually takes the form of an eye for an eye lash and a tooth for a jaw. Since the goal here is not justice but fear. The Koran orders justice. Justice based on qist( equity). This is why the symbol of justice is always the scale. Equal proportion.
Anyways Sunnis attach slavery with prisoners of war. The Koran gave two options for prisoners of war (freedom or ransom) and considered prisoners of war and act of charity.
765.-11 As to the Righteous, they shall drink of a Cup (of Wine) mixed with Kafur,- A Fountain where the Devotees of Allah do drink, making it flow in unstinted abundance. They perform (their) vows, and they fear a Day whose evil flies far and wide. And they feed, for the love of Allah, the indigent, the orphan, and the captive,- (Saying),"We feed you for the sake of Allah alone no reward do we desire from you, nor thanks. "We only fear a Day of distressful Wrath from the side of our Lord." But Allah will deliver them from the evil of that Day, and will shed over them a Light of Beauty and (blissful) Joy.
Can u imagine then selling captives as slaves? Sunnis even allowed execution of a captive if the dictator desires. Its a dictatorial sect establishmed by dictators for the dictators. It has nothing to with Islam.
Treatment of prisoners-of-war in Islam
Prisoners should be detained until it is decided what is the best move. The ruler of the Muslims should detain prisoners until he decides what is in the Muslims? best interests. He may ransom them for money, or exchange them for Muslim prisoners, or release them for nothing in return, or distribute them among the Muslims as slaves, or kill the men, but not the women and children, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) forbade killing the latter. The purpose behind detaining prisoners is so that the Muslims may be protected from their evil. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) used to enjoin the Muslims to treat prisoners well, whereas the Romans and those who came before them the Assyrians and Pharaohs, all used to put out their prisoners? eyes with hot irons, and flay them alive, feeding their skins to dogs, such that the prisoners preferred death to
http//islamqa.info/en/ref/13241
The blue parts are from the Koran, the red from the Sunnah.
Again, my questions related to this issue were;
..... why there is no punishment at all for these wrongdoers or criminals in Al-Quran?
Unless you disagree criminals need to be punished in this life to keep the order in the community then you don't have to respond to this question and the next one.
Also what are the suitable punishments Quranists - as a group not individual - want to impose on these wrongdoers?
Need I say more?
I'm not sure. You are avoiding my questions. We don't have neutral judge here and it is hard to value your arguments or comments.
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Actaully it did say about murder.(intentional murder).
5.27-34 Recite to them the truth of the story of the two sons of Adam. Behold! they each presented a sacrifice (to Allah. It was accepted from one, but not from the other. Said the latter "Be sure I will slay thee." "Surely," said the former, "(Allah) doth accept of the sacrifice of those who are righteous. If thou dost stretch thy hand against me, to slay me, it is not for me to stretch my hand against thee to slay thee for I do fear Allah, the cherisher of the worlds. "For me, I intend to let thee draw on thyself my sin as well as thine, for thou wilt be among the companions of the fire, and that is the reward of those who do wrong." The (selfish) soul of the other led him to the murder of his brother he murdered him, and became (himself) one of the lost ones. Then Allah sent a raven, who scratched the ground, to show him how to hide the shame of his brother. "Woe is me!" said he; "Was I not even able to be as this raven, and to hide the shame of my brother?" then he became full of regrets- . On that account We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land. The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter; Except for those who repent before they fall into your power in that case, know that Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
For murder the law of soul for soul or at the minimum exile from the community (life imprisonment)
For unintentional (manslaughter)
2.178 -179 O ye who believe! the law of equality is prescribed to you in cases of murder the free for the free, the slave for the slave, the woman for the woman. But if any remission is made by the brother of the slain, then grant any reasonable demand, and compensate him with handsome gratitude, this is a concession and a Mercy from your Lord. After this whoever exceeds the limits shall be in grave penalty. In the Law of Equality there is (saving of) Life to you, o ye men of understanding; that ye may restrain yourselves.
4.92. Never should a believer kill a believer; but (If it so happens) by mistake, (Compensation is due) If one (so) kills a believer, it is ordained that he should free a believing slave, and pay compensation to the deceased's family, unless they remit it freely. If the deceased belonged to a people at war with you, and he was a believer, the freeing of a believing slave (Is enough). If he belonged to a people with whom ye have treaty of Mutual alliance, compensation should be paid to his family, and a believing slave be freed. For those who find this beyond their means, (is prescribed) a fast for two months running by way of repentance to Allah. for Allah hath all knowledge and all wisdom.
There are some who interpret verse 5.27 -34 as talking about fighting. However fighting in the Koran uses the verb qital and not harb. But what I believe the Koran is saying is not war in the meaning of fighting but oppossing as the war on drugs or the war on poverty etc. If it was fighting than we are talking about prisoners of war and this the Koran has talked about already and given either freedom or ransom of some sort as the conditions to deal with prisoners of war.Th fact that the verse came in the context of muder and the fact that it talked about capital punishment being the highest sealing tells us its about murder since any other issue than murder can not be punished by capital punishment or esle that will violate the law of eye for an eye.
We are also told the Israelites violated this law by insisting that only jews deserve eye for an eye but for gentiles than its an eye for a thousand eye and a teeth for a thousand teeth.
The Talmud (i.e., the Babylonian Talmud) text of Sanhedrin 37a restricts the duty to save life to saving only Jewish lives.
The book on Hebrew censorship, written by Jews themselves (Hesronot Ha-shas), notes that some Talmud texts use the universalist phrase
"Whoever destroys the life of a single human being...it is as if he had destroyed an entire world; and whoever preserves the life of a single human being ...it is as if he had preserved an entire world."
However, Hesronot Ha-shas points out that these are not the authentic words of the original Talmud.
In other words, the preceding universalist rendering is not the authentic text of the Talmud and thus, for example, this universalist version which Steven Spielberg in his famous movie, Schindler's List attributed to the Talmud (and which became the motto of the movie on posters and in advertisements), is a hoax and constitutes propaganda intended to give a humanistic gloss to a Talmud which is, in its essence, racist and chauvinist hate literature.
In the authentic, original Talmud text it states that "whoever preserves a single soul of Israel, it is as if he had preserved an entire world" (emphasis supplied). The authentic Talmud text sanctions only the saving of Jewish lives.
http//www.revisionisthistory.org/talmudtruth.html
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Sex slaves is one of the most degrading and disgusting things honored by hadith. Does this sound Godly? God does Godly things.
Just makes my blood beyond boil... ughh!
Salaam
Please read this article see the difference between sheltered girls(your right hand possesses) and these poor girls of today Bangladesh?s teenage brothels hold steroid secret
http//www.dawn.com/2012/03/19/bangladeshs-teenage-brothels-hold-dark-steroid-secret.html
peace