Death Penalty for Murders...

Sha

Dear LoteTree

You say human life is sacred. I agree with you. I also believe that human life is sacred. For me, killing a single human being is like killing all of humanity.

You say that while the life of the killer is sacred (no death penalty for a murderer), the life of the killed is not sacred (no right to seek justice). Am I correct in my assumption?

Sha

unknownuser

Hello Sha,

Dear LoteTree
You say human life is sacred. I agree with you. I also believe that human life is sacred. For me, killing a single human being is like killing all of humanity.

You say that while the life of the killer is sacred (no death penalty for a murderer), the life of the killed is not sacred (no right to seek justice). Am I correct in my assumption?

Sha

Yes. I say all human life is sacred and as society as whole we should either uphold this principle or we don't. The murderer should recieve punishment for his/her crime, but society as a whole should not practice murder as a punishment.

I hope this answers your question.

Regards,

unknownuser

Hello LT,

Your conclusions related to the topic of this thread or any other topic are apparently based on "your" intuition and imagination.

We are all human beings and are not perfect. Only The God is perfect. We can make mistakes. According to you intuition and imagination can lead us to truth, but how do we know what we arrived at through intuition or imagination is the actual truth?? What is the absolute criterion or yardstick by which we can determine that what we arrived at through our intuition or imagination is the actual truth?? So by following "our intuition" or "our imagination" there is a possibility that we can be misled.

The reason I put "our" within quotes is because what we think is "our" may not be "our" !!. It could be the "whispers" or the "wasawas" of satan or the jinn. But now you will probably say you dont believe in jinn or satan. The question is whatever knowledge you arrive at through your intuition and imagination (which might not be "your") how can you ascertain it is the actual truth?? That is how we as human beings could be misguided by our (or the satan's) desires. That is why The Merciful sent us guidance or The Criterion (Al-Furqan) to ascertain the actual truth so that nothing will be able to mislead us. That is why when "our" intuition or imagination tells us something we have to compare it with The Criterion to determine if it is the truth or if we have been misguided. That is why "our" intuition and imagination should be subservient to The Criterion and not the other way around. Unless you think you are god or "your" intuition and imagination can never lead you astray, or you think you can sense the wasawas of the jinn and distinguish them from your thoughts, you have to use The Criterion to distinguish the truth from falsehood.

We have already made too many blunders using "our" intuition and imagination. We do not need to be making any more. We got expelled from our heavenly existence, we accepted the trust like a fool, and now we continue to make the same mistakes.

References

720 But the devil whispered to them, to reveal their sin which was kept from them; and he said "Your Lord did not forbid you from this tree except that you would become Angels, or you would be immortal."
20118 But the devil whispered to him, he said "O Adam, shall I lead you to the tree of immortality and a kingdom which will not waste away?"
2399 And Say "My Lord, I seek refuge with you from the whispers of the devils."
1145 "From the evil of the sneaking whisperer,"
1146 "Who whispers into the chests of mankind,"

253 And We gave Moses the Scripture and the criterion, perhaps you would be guided.
2185 A month in early autumn, in which the Quran was sent down as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion.
34 From before as a guidance for the people, and He sent down the Criterion.
2149 And We had given Moses and Aaron the Criterion, a shining light, and reminder for the righteous.

4135 O you who believe, stand with justice as witnesses to God, even if against yourselves, or the parents or the relatives. Even if he be rich or poor, God is more worthy of them, so do not follow your desires from being just. And if you twist or turn away, then God is Expert over what you do.
551 And We have sent down to you the Scripture with truth, authenticating what is present of the Scripture and superseding it. So judge between them by what God has sent down, and do not follow their desires from what has come to you of the truth.
6121 Many misguide by their desires without knowledge; your Lord is fully aware of the transgressors.
6152 .....nor follow the desires of those who deny Our revelations
1960 Then generations came after them who lost the contact-method, and followed desires. They will find their consequences
2373 And if the truth were to follow their desires, then the heavens and the Earth and all who are in them would have been corrupted.
2851 But if they fail to respond to you, then know that they follow only their desires. And who is more astray than one who follows his desire, without guidance from God? God does not guide the wicked people.

6118 And if you obey the majority of those on Earth they will lead you away from God's path; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess.
1037 Most of them only follow conjecture. While conjecture does not avail against the truth in anything.
5329 While they had no knowledge about this; they only followed conjecture. And conjecture is no substitute for the truth.

1737 And do not uphold what you have no knowledge of. For the hearing, eyesight, and mind, all these you are responsible for.

Peace,

Tanveer

unknownuser

Hello LT,
Your conclusions related to the topic of this thread or any other topic are apparently based on "your" intuition and imagination.

Hello Tanveer,

Yes. I have said we need to use our INTUITION and IMAGINATION but you have left out REASON! -)

I have always said we have to use our REASON, INTITUITION AND IMAGINATION to arrive at an understanding of God which goes beyond scripture. But because God is beyond LANGUAGE and REASON then REASON itself can only take you so far and no more. This is the insights of the Great Seers, Sages, Prophets, Meditators and Mystics. Reason can only lead you to limits of human understanding and thats it. But God has given us the gift of intuition and imaginations. Intuition and imagination allows us see beyond LOGIC and REASON and grasp some understanding of God which lies beyond language and reason...

I hope that answers your question.

If you want to pursue this then we can discuss this under a different thread perhaps?

Regards,

marie

Peace all,

I'm very confused
oops
This thread "Death Penalty for Murders...." is the the continuation of "Death Penalty for Murders".
I wanted to split from it the post about muslim but I selected by mistake the posts above.oops

I was obliged to split them from this the new thread on the meaning of muslim to God.

Thanks for your comprehension.

Fahad1

peace dear moderators .
this thread was 5 pages long , last time i checked . so where did the first 4 pages vanish to ?

marie

Please check this link

Death Penalty for Murders

Death Penalty for Murders... is the continuation of Death Penalty for Murders

Perhaps Layth or Zenje can merge them.

unknownuser

Hello Lote Tree,

I have always said we have to use our REASON, INTITUITION AND IMAGINATION to arrive at an understanding of God which goes beyond scripture. But because God is beyond LANGUAGE and REASON then REASON itself can only take you so far and no more. This is the insights of the Great Seers, Sages, Prophets, Meditators and Mystics. Reason can only lead you to limits of human understanding and thats it. But God has given us the gift of intuition and imaginations. Intuition and imagination allows us see beyond LOGIC and REASON and grasp some understanding of God which lies beyond language and reason...

Before you state your understanding as a fact please provide evidence for the above from Al-Quran. It is not a good practice to uphold something based on conjecture without knowledge. I have provided all the evidences from Al-Quran in my previous post supporting my understanding which looks like you have conveniently ignored. This habit of basing opinions, especially opinions about understanding The God or understanding laws for mankind, on conjecture is what has led to our downfall always. I have noticed that in all your posts you rarely produce any concrete evidence to support what you say. Not a good practice.

Bring me your proof or evidence that what you are saying is the truth

2124 Say "Bring your proof. This is a reminder of those with me and a reminder of those before me." But, most of them do not know the truth, so they turn away.
2875 And We will extract from every nation a witness, then We will Say "Bring forth your proof." They will then realise that all truth belongs with God, and what they had invented will abandon them.
3035 Or have We sent down to them a proof, which speaks to them of that which they have set up?
4714 Is one who is based on proof from his Lord, as one for whom his evil works have been adorned for him and they followed their desires?

I agree that we have to use our senses and reasoning abilities to discover or understand or confirm the truth but after using our senses and reason if we arrive at an understanding that contradicts the Word of The God then it cannot be the truth.

3192 Those who remember God while standing, and sitting, and on their sides, and they ponder in the creation of the heavens and the Earth "Our Lord you did not create this without purpose, be You glorified, spare us the retribution of the Fire!"
89 So that truth will be manifest, and the falsehood will be confounded; even if the criminals dislike it.
1856 And We do not send the messengers except as bearers of good news and warners. But those who reject will argue using falsehood to overshadow the truth with it. And they took My revelations and what they have been warned by as a joke!
4223 Or do they Say "He has fabricated lies about God!" If God willed, He could have sealed your heart. And God erases the falsehood and affirms the truth with His words. He is fully aware of what is inside the chests.
474 That is because those who disbelieve followed falsehood, while those who believe followed the truth from their Lord.

Our reason, intuition or imagination can mislead us. From now on I will disregard you on any topic unless you bring me a proof or evidence of whatever you proclaim to be the truth and not follow just conjecture and falsehood

5329 While they had no knowledge about this; they only followed conjecture. And conjecture is no substitute for the truth. So disregard he who turns away from Our reminder, and only desires this worldly life.

Proof or evidence is either scientifically verifiable or based on any authentic Word of The God.

Regards,

Tanveer

Fahad1

Hello Lote Tree,

Before you state your understanding as a fact please provide evidence for the above from Al-Quran.

peace tanveermd.
Lotetree doesnt believe in the koran. he thinks the koran is an fallible interpretation of the Muhammad's encounter with God. ie a joke .

1856 And We do not send the messengers except as bearers of good news and warners. But those who reject will argue using falsehood to overshadow the truth with it. And they took My revelations and what they have been warned by as a joke!

4714 Is one who is based on proof from his Lord, as one for whom his evil works have been adorned for him and they followed their desires?

asifwadud

I agree with brother Tanveer, whatever he said in his last two posts are truths and nothing but truths. I am new here, but I can already see I will be regular here.

zenje

I am new here, but I can already see I will be regular here.

Welcome to the forum asifwadud. Please feel free to be as regular as you wish.

Perhaps Layth or Zenje can merge them.
Actually I think I can only split topics. ops

marie

Perhaps Layth or Zenje can merge them.
Actually I think I can only split topics. oops

I will pay more attention the next time before spliting topics.

Indeed there is only 4 possibilities of management d, b, s and move.

Maybe you can find a solution in "Administration Panel"

Thanks

unknownuser

Salaamun alaikum brothers Saladin, Asif

First of all I welcome brother Asif to the forum.

Lotetree doesnt believe in the koran. he thinks the koran is an fallible interpretation of the Muhammad's encounter with God. ie a joke.

Brother Saladin I had an inkling about the above. Thanks for clarifying it for me. If LT does not believe in Al-Quran as the Word of The God then he should bring his proof and evidence from any other source to support what he says and not use only his reason, intuition or imagination to arrive at a conclusion or to discover his own "truths". I have noticed that he does not bring any proof or evidence for what he says and expects people to accept his "truths" as the absolute truths without any supporting proof. If Al-Quran is fallible in LT's opinion then his (LT's) interpretations of the truth are even more fallible. I do not understand how he can believe in his own versions of the truth without any concrete supporting proof or evidence !

I agree that no one can understand Allah completely as He is beyond logic and reasoning but at least I am presenting His Words as evidence for what I am saying rather than just conjecturing using "my" reason or intuition or imagination. Reason or intuition or imagination are not infallible and can mislead or misguide us. That is why we need a yardstick or The Criterion to distinguish truth from falsehood.

Regards,

Tanveer

unknownuser

I agree that no one can understand Allah completely as He is beyond logic and reasoning

All religions assert that God is beyond Reason and Language. So how do you describe with words something that is beyond language and reason? How do you describe the truth of colour to someone who is born blind? or truth of music to someone who is born deaf? You can't, not with words. They have to experience this truth for
themselves to "know" that it exists. Some truths, have to be experienced and can't be described with words. The Truth of Divinity is one of them. But this has not stopped human beings in trying to describe this ineffable experience with words. Scriptures therefore, are the attempts to describe this ineffable experience of God in human language. Therefore scripture is an "interpretation" of a reality that is beyond words and reason.

Think Tanveer, think. God has given you reason, so think. God is indeed infinitly more complex than you can possible imagine. The more you think about it more you can gain some understanding of this complexity. God is not out there Tanveer, God is within ourselves. Look into yourself and you will find what you are looking for you...

Regards,

unknownuser

Hello LT,

So how do you describe with words something that is beyond language and reason?

I am not describing it in Al-Quran, it is The God Himself who is describing with words (I am talking about the original scripture, not the human interpretation or translation). According to your philosophy you should not speak or write any words anymore but you still keep using them !! Words are how we communicate our thoughts to each other even though it is an imperfect means of communication and that is how The God chose to communicate with us. Some understanding through words is better than no understanding at all or false understanding. According to your own philosophy you should stop using words and stop communicating with me through words.

Again as usual, no proof and no evidence. I am afraid I will have to disregard you from now on.

Regards,

Tanveer

Fahad1

salam Lotetree.

All religions assert that God is beyond Reason and Language. So how do you describe with words something that is beyond language and reason?

the koran is a guide for our lives . it tells us the laws of God . the laws of God are not beyond language and reason . dont u agree ?

Think Tanveer, think. God has given you reason, so think.

God has also given us the Koran as the Criterion . so pay some heed .
salam.

unknownuser

Hello Tanveer,

Hello LT,

Quote
So how do you describe with words something that is beyond language and reason?

I am not describing it in Al-Quran, it is The God Himself who is describing with words
(I am talking about the original scripture, not the human interpretation or
translation).

Scripture came through a human being so how can you be sure that scripture is God's words and not humans? There is no way of getting around this Tanveer. And that is my argument. You either have faith in it or you don't, or in my view, we can use our God-given reason, intuition and imagination to develop an understanding that goes beyond scripture.

Words are how we communicate our thoughts to each other even though it is an imperfect means of communication

Hey Tanveer this is the insight of the Great seers, sages, prophets, meditators and mystics! And you are right we use words to communicate our thoughts to each other. But God is beyond language and reason Tanveer.

Do you know how religious experience comes about?

It comes from meditation, contemplation and reflection. It is these things that Prophet Muhammad used to do in his Ramadan retreat according to traditions (I know you may reject all these traditions as basis of religious doctrine and thats ok, but they provide some historical insights how the revelations came about, and so do the experiences of the Hebrew Prophets, Seers, Sages and Mystics provide further insights into the nature of the human experience of Divine). You enter the Divine Realm when you go beyond yourself, when trascend language and reason in a "meditative trance" - this the "wordless" and "reasonless" reality that we call God. The only way to verify that there is a another level of perception from the ordinary rational thought processes is to practice meditation, reflection and contemplation...

Again as usual, no proof and no evidence.

If Great Seers, Sages, Prophets, Meditators and Mystics say the same thing about the reality of God, which is also in the Quran - what does that tell you about the human experience of the Divine tanveer? Even some indiginous tribes of africa, cut of from Monotheistic traditions, assert that their "supreme God" is beyond human language and reason - so what does the tell you about the nature of God? You want proof, you want
evidence? Why don't you go and find out yourself? Read and try to uderstand what all these people are saying about the reality we call "God". God is just Tanveer. If you seek God, you will find God. God does not impose on humanity but if you seek him you are sure to find him, not out there, but within yourself.

Question everything Tanveer, try to think outside of the scripture, use your God-given reason and not make scripture your REASON. Read as much as you can read, learn as much as you can learn. Find your own insights and proofs. Don't make scripture an obstacle to your intellectual and spiritual growth. Scripture is not God. Scripture should only be used as GUIDE to understanding God. And once you have developed some understanding of God then use of this GUIDE is no longer required...try not to make idol out of any scripture... -)

I am afraid I will have to disregard you from now on.

That is your freedom of choice Tanveer, but I will continue read what you have to say and may comment on the things you have to say... -)

Take care,

With due respects,

Regards,

unknownuser

Hello Saladin,

the koran is a guide for our lives . it tells us the laws of God . the laws of God are not beyond language and reason . dont u agree ?

You are still here Saladin? -) Since you did not reply to my last post I thought you have gone away to do some serious reading and thinking! -)

If Quran is a good guide to your life Saladin then I am happy for you. But my understanding of God is now beyond any particular scripture. You may disagree with this view and thats fine and as I said before I don't mind. I am not here to make people agree with me. In my view the idea is not to agree with each other (but if you agree thats good) but to air our thoughts so that we can refine and develop our own understanding of God and religion.

God has also given us the Koran as the Criterion . so pay some heed. salam.

I have Saladin. And this is my understanding of QuranPractice Compassion, Be Compassionate, cultivate compassion in yourself and in others. Be God conscious.

Rest of the scriture can be regarded as "Commentary".

Regards,

Fahad1

You are still here Saladin? -) Since you did not reply to my last post I thought you have gone away to do some serious reading and thinking! -)

salam Lotetree .
i thought replying would be useless since u repeat the same thing over and over again .

unknownuser

Hello Saladin,

salam Lotetree .
i thought replying would be useless since u repeat the same thing over and over again .

Nice to hear from you -) I thought I upset you -(

But you kept asking me the same question Saladin! -)
I had no choice but to give you the same answer...

I have read your "God Alone" story Saladin (just by chance because I was browsing that section)- I guess it was hard hating God wasn't it? And then certain scientific facts in the Quran made you believe in God again which is a good thing Saladin -)

I hope one day you find God within yourself too...
...all the best.

Take care.

Regards,