Why didn't God guide all the sunis, shia an the rest who believe in the Quran?
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Because they're dumb people who simply want to go to Jannah.
And what Mmkhan said
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This is a question that has recently been pushing me into omnistic belief from wich I have recovered. Its simply about the people who actually believe in the Quran and that is why didn't God help them in rejecting the hadith. I reject it but why weren't they helped.
My answer to this is that they are worshiping tradition blindly or that maybe they don't sincierly believe.
I would however like to hear what others think!
The reason for this is that until recently Muslims didn't even hear of hadith. They understood Sunnah very generally and simply practiced the rituals. It was the rise of Wahhabism in the 1920s in now Saudi Arabia and the printing press invention that made Muslims for the first time acquainted with hadiths. In the past hadith was an area covered by clerics and religious scholars centered around tradition learning places. Often people would have to travel to such learning centers to learn about hadiths. Bukhari and Muslim were unknown personalities until very recently.
The Muslim nation was dominated by Sufism that shuneed legalism and politics and focused on religious and spiritual matters. To this day if you watch the Sufi TV channels you can see they rarely preach but focus on poetry and music. The Sufis try to appeal to emotions and example. They were careful with the masses who they believed did not need to know more than the very general issues like whats haram or not and how to pray and pay zakat etc. They focused on manners and conduct and piety.
The Wahhabis meanwhile emphasized hadith and sunnah. They focused on an Islamic state and Shariah law. They used huge amounts of money to spread many hadiths and fatwas. To understand all this you need to go back and study the conflict with Ibn Thaymiya and the Sufis back in the 13th century.
So hadith is a very recent phenemenon and it gave the rise to the so called Islamist movements. The Islamist and Wahhabis accused the Sufis of not implimenting Islam completely and simply kept it confined to rituals and worships.
In short most Muslims do not really know what is Sunni or Shia Islam. They do not know many aspects of Shariah law or mpre importantly how they are derived. Or to be more specific, most Muslims are totally unaware the role the hadith play in Islam as compared to the Koran.
I know when I was a Muslim Sunni I did not really know the difference between Koran and Sunnah and was not aware of how they both operate. It never actually came across me. But looking at my shift I can see that its not that difficult for people to see. Its a time issue and will happen soon.
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My belief is they are guided.
There isn't only one straight path, some of us were blessed with the guidance to seek out the true form of Islam, from the Qur'an alone. At the same time God understands that some are simply incapable for various reasons to do this, and it is simpler to have them accept the hadith and the sunnah, as at the end of the day they are still worshipping God alone.
But obviously, I don't know God's methods, that's just my theory.
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Greetings and Peace, all group
My belief is they are guided.
There isn't only one straight path, some of us were blessed with the guidance to seek out the true form of Islam, from the Qur'an alone. At the same time God understands that some are simply incapable for various reasons to do this, and it is simpler to have them accept the hadith and the sunnah, as at the end of the day they are still worshipping God alone.
But obviously, I don't know God's methods, that's just my theory.
There is one straight path--monotheism. Then again, we label monotheism with all sorts of labels--normally those of religions or philosophies. One path, many labels.
6117 Your Lord is fully aware of who strays from His path, and He is fully aware of the guided ones.
Path is singular.
877 Except for what GOD wills, He knows what is declared and what is hidden.
Our labels don't matter.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Shalom Aleikhem,
You brought up something that is very emotional for me. A lot of close friends differ in opinion with me when it comes to Islamic things. Many times they made super awful comments after I shared my view. I am discussing the issue of hadiths with one of my closest friends ever for the past 5 years. Almost every week until recently, I shared my findings with him. My friend's email is flooded wit history of my transformation process. From the first weird hadith, first baffling ayaat against hadiths.... to extreme analysis of almost all major aspects of hadiths....... its all their in my friend's mail box.
It was always the case that when someone raised an issue, I would differ, and inform them of Qur'an's ayaat. They would bring up hadith. I would refute using Qur'an. Then I would share with them the analysis of their hadith collector and hadiths. But doing this for 5 years straight.... nothing changed. These people still obey their sheikhs. Qur'an is of no use in their case. Trust me, nowadays... I am constantly being asked to debate with "Zakir Naik" !!!! brickwall
Just to make them ponder.. I asked them if they will believe me if all scholars disagreed with me but Zakir naik alone agreed ? They said yes. So I informed them that I have only ONE GOD, and I was wrong to assume that we follow the same God. I told them that my goal is to be in agreement with GOD not other slaves of God.
My friends know almost as much as I know about the flaws in hadiths and its so called "science". Yet, their only problem is that all their scholars can't be wrong...lol. So.... the problem is not GOD never helped them..................... they have received every evidence they ever asked for.... but they denied Truth to stay as sheep of their dictators......
1311 Present with him and behind him are retainers, they preserve him from the command of God. God does not change the condition of a people until they change the condition of their souls. And if God wanted to harm a people, then there is no turning Him back, nor will they have any protector against Him.
By the way... these traditionalist friends know about more flaws with more hadiths and hadith sciences than many quran alone follower that I meet here or online...lol. This is the side effect of being my close friends..lol. They share with me what they learn..I share what I learnt.
Peace
-------------- Student of Allah -
Shalom Aleikhem,
You brought up something that is very emotional for me. A lot of close friends differ in opinion with me when it comes to Islamic things. Many times they made super awful comments after I shared my view. I am discussing the issue of hadiths with one of my closest friends ever for the past 5 years. Almost every week until recently, I shared my findings with him. My friend's email is flooded wit history of my transformation process. From the first weird hadith, first baffling ayaat against hadiths.... to extreme analysis of almost all major aspects of hadiths....... its all their in my friend's mail box.
It was always the case that when someone raised an issue, I would differ, and inform them of Qur'an's ayaat. They would bring up hadith. I would refute using Qur'an. Then I would share with them the analysis of their hadith collector and hadiths. But doing this for 5 years straight.... nothing changed. These people still obey their sheikhs. Qur'an is of no use in their case. Trust me, nowadays... I am constantly being asked to debate with "Zakir Naik" !!!! brickwall
Just to make them ponder.. I asked them if they will believe me if all scholars disagreed with me but Zakir naik alone agreed ? They said yes. So I informed them that I have only ONE GOD, and I was wrong to assume that we follow the same God. I told them that my goal is to be in agreement with GOD not other slaves of God.
My friends know almost as much as I know about the flaws in hadiths and its so called "science". Yet, their only problem is that all their scholars can't be wrong...lol. So.... the problem is not GOD never helped them..................... they have received every evidence they ever asked for.... but they denied Truth to stay as sheep of their dictators......
1311 Present with him and behind him are retainers, they preserve him from the command of God. God does not change the condition of a people until they change the condition of their souls. And if God wanted to harm a people, then there is no turning Him back, nor will they have any protector against Him.
By the way... these traditionalist friends know about more flaws with more hadiths and hadith sciences than many quran alone follower that I meet here or online...lol. This is the side effect of being my close friends..lol. They share with me what they learn..I share what I learnt.
Peace
-------------- Student of AllahThe problem is here is more complicated. Most people are conformist. Because most Koranist today became so out of their own free will and did so by their own reasearch, we have a problem relating to the masses who follow religion as part of their upbringing.
I do not waste my time discussing too much of this stuff with people outside the net. The good thing about the net is you can find people who are specifically interesting in the topics we discuss. I am not sure what you expected them to do. Did you expect them to stop being Sunnis? And what does that mean, like to shave their beard and not having to eat with the right hand?
What are the changes you were looking for?
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The problem is here is more complicated. Most people are conformist. Because most Koranist today became so out of their own free will and did so by their own reasearch, we have a problem relating to the masses who follow religion as part of their upbringing.
I do not waste my time discussing too much of this stuff with people outside the net. The good thing about the net is you can find people who are specifically interesting in the topics we discuss. I am not sure what you expected them to do. Did you expect them to stop being Sunnis? And what does that mean, like to shave their beard and not having to eat with the right hand?
What are the changes you were looking for?
Shalom Aleikhem,
When someone claims that Sahih-Bukhari is flawless, and then they are shown that it isnt the case, I would expect them to not call me a kafir. Specially when they finally agrees that it is not flawless. Specially when they are shown and they agree on the flaws in hadith science and ridiculous tafsirs by their sheikhs. I would like them to stop being robots.
Unfortunately ...that is not easy. The point you made about conformism is kinda true. Although the idea of "No god beside The God" is simple, most find comfort in setting partners....
I just do my part of the job, I do some "dawah" , it sometime works, sometimes it does not.
PEACE
------------ Student of Allah -
Shalom Aleikhem,
When someone claims that Sahih-Bukhari is flawless, and then they are shown that it isnt the case, I would expect them to not call me a kafir. Specially when they finally agrees that it is not flawless. Specially when they are shown and they agree on the flaws in hadith science and ridiculous tafsirs by their sheikhs. I would like them to stop being robots.
Unfortunately ...that is not easy. The point you made about conformism is kinda true. Although the idea of "No god beside The God" is simple, most find comfort in setting partners....
I just do my part of the job, I do some "dawah" , it sometime works, sometimes it does not.
PEACE
------------ Student of AllahWhat I meant is what actual changes did youe xpect of them. So lets say they say Bukhari is false. Ok, and then how is that going to change their life?
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What I meant is what actual changes did youe xpect of them. So lets say they say Bukhari is false. Ok, and then how is that going to change their life?
Shalom aleikhem,
lol...
ok.. then they would want to be righteous instead of cutting corners to heaven in the name of sunnah. They are more into eating dates and keeping beards to get into heaven, so they reading and implementing principles in Qur'an would make them better.
When you are brain washed with the idea that holding a 2unit salat near kabah and kissing a black stone guarantees your entry to heaven, its not healthy for you. That kind of mentality is held up by HADITHS. So, after they realise that it isnt the case... since they all want to enter heaven, they would do the right things, or atleast think about doing things.
PEACE
----------- Student of Allah -
Shalom Aleikhem,
When someone claims that Sahih-Bukhari is flawless, and then they are shown that it isnt the case, I would expect them to not call me a kafir. Specially when they finally agrees that it is not flawless. Specially when they are shown and they agree on the flaws in hadith science and ridiculous tafsirs by their sheikhs. I would like them to stop being robots.
Unfortunately ...that is not easy. The point you made about conformism is kinda true. Although the idea of "No god beside The God" is simple, most find comfort in setting partners....
I just do my part of the job, I do some "dawah" , it sometime works, sometimes it does not.
PEACE
------------ Student of AllahShalom Aleikhem SoA,
I understand what you were discussing but I am not to force anyone except for suggestions.
With respect I disagree with your highlighted sentence above. As I believe that what you were doing is not to be considered as dawah.
Reasons
16125
16125 Invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and good advice, and argue with them in that which is better. Your Lord is fully aware of who is misguided from His path, and He is fully aware of the guided ones.Similar aayaats 2267, 2887
4133
4133 And who is better in saying than he who invites to God, and does good works, and says I am one of those who have submitted.I might be completely wrong but I did not find such reason in your blue part above. And my way also the same, inshaAllah.
12108
12108 Say "This is my way, I invite to God in full disclosure, myself and whoever follows me. And glory be to God; and I am not of the polytheists."Please don't take it wrong, I was saying something similar to brother Bigmo before and he misunderstood the whole thing.
May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path pr
mmKhan -
Shalom Aleikhem SoA,
I understand what you were discussing but I am not to force anyone except for suggestions.
With respect I disagree with your highlighted sentence above. As I believe that what you were doing is not to be considered as dawah.
Reasons
16125
16125 Invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and good advice, and argue with them in that which is better. Your Lord is fully aware of who is misguided from His path, and He is fully aware of the guided ones.Similar aayaats 2267, 2887
4133
4133 And who is better in saying than he who invites to God, and does good works, and says I am one of those who have submitted.I might be completely wrong but I did not find such reason in your blue part above. And my way also the same, inshaAllah.
12108
12108 Say "This is my way, I invite to God in full disclosure, myself and whoever follows me. And glory be to God; and I am not of the polytheists."Please don't take it wrong, I was saying something similar to brother Bigmo before and he misunderstood the whole thing.
May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path pr
mmKhanBut Student of Allah is using the Koran so i don't think he violated those verses unless he is using insults and foul language which i doubt. What i meant was whether the issue he is looking for in terms of change is actually important. This is because most Muslim simply perform the rituals of Islam and these rituals in the end are a means to an end not an end by themselves. I say this is because i think the main difference between the Koranist persuasion and Sunni Islam could be in our concept of an Islamic state. It is that where we and Sunni islam differ the most. Our understanding of justice, freedom differ greatky. But i think Student of Allah was looking at superstitions and faulty mentalities like black dog and going to haj to forgive sins and eating with right hand etc. But sometimes I wonder whether its the average Muslim we differ with or with political Islam.
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But Student of Allah is using the Koran so i don't think he violated those verses unless he is using insults and foul language which i doubt. What i meant was whether the issue he is looking for in terms of change is actually important. This is because most Muslim simply perform the rituals of Islam and these rituals in the end are a means to an end not an end by themselves. I say this is because i think the main difference between the Koranist persuasion and Sunni Islam could be in our concept of an Islamic state. It is that where we and Sunni islam differ the most. Our understanding of justice, freedom differ greatky. But i think Student of Allah was looking at superstitions and faulty mentalities like black dog and going to haj to forgive sins and eating with right hand etc. But sometimes I wonder whether its the average Muslim we differ with or with political Islam.
Salaam brother Bigmo,
As per my understanding we are only allowed to spread the word of Allah. Let them ponder on it, then tally with their belief and then decide to accept or reject the word of Allah. They will be asked whether they get the aayaats of Allah recited on them or not. Allah is not gonna ask them whether no one shows you flaws in what you believe.
23104
23104 The Fire will scorch their faces, and in it their grin will be with displaced lips.23105
23105 "Were My aayaats not recited to you, then you denied them?"23106
23106 They said "Our Lord, our wickedness overcame us, and we were a misguided people."It is not for us to show flaws in books that they believe in. And we are not be questioned if they don't believe in what we say. So, why wasting time on that and the most dangerous part is IF they run away from the path of Allah after seeing the flaws in their loving books, we may have to carry some of their burdens. And we cannot guide anyone whom we wish the most also.
1637
1637 If you are concerned for their guidance, God does not guide whom He misguides; and they will have no supporters.It is always better to forward the aayaats of The Book in the best possible way and we are finish with our duty, inshaAllah.
1452
1452 This is a Message to be delivered to mankind that they may be warned by it, and that they may know that He is One God, and that all possessed of minds may remember.May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path pr
mmKhan -
Salaam brother Bigmo,
As per my understanding we are only allowed to spread the word of Allah. Let them ponder on it, then tally with their belief and then decide to accept or reject the word of Allah. They will be asked whether they get the aayaats of Allah recited on them or not. Allah is not gonna ask them whether no one shows you flaws in what you believe.
23104
23104 The Fire will scorch their faces, and in it their grin will be with displaced lips.23105
23105 "Were My aayaats not recited to you, then you denied them?"23106
23106 They said "Our Lord, our wickedness overcame us, and we were a misguided people."It is not for us to show flaws in books that they believe in. And we are not be questioned if they don't believe in what we say. So, why wasting time on that and the most dangerous part is IF they run away from the path of Allah after seeing the flaws in their loving books, we may have to carry some of their burdens. And we cannot guide anyone whom we wish the most also.
1637
1637 If you are concerned for their guidance, God does not guide whom He misguides; and they will have no supporters.It is always better to forward the aayaats of The Book in the best possible way and we are finish with our duty, inshaAllah.
1452
1452 This is a Message to be delivered to mankind that they may be warned by it, and that they may know that He is One God, and that all possessed of minds may remember.May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path pr
mmKhanI see ur point. I think its a question of whether one should focus on things that are not Koranic or things that contradict the Koran. Eating with the right hand may not be Koranic and so is circumcission but they do not necessarily contradict the Koran.
There are Koranist who critique hadiths and Sunni jurisprudence as a way to spread the message. Others simply talk aboyt what the Koran teaches. However wehn I debate Sunnis I find myself having to counter many Sunni teachings since many Sunnis will quote Sunni interpretations of the Koran.
Remember that Koranist came to the Koranic persuasion for a variety of reasons. Some left Sunni islam due to what they saw was inconsistent and often puzzling teachings. Some came from a non Sunni background and couldn't care less about what the Sunnah teaches. I came from a Sunni background and I was at one point Ikhawn/salafi" type and used to attend a lot of Islamic conferences and even went with the Tabligh Jama't in their khurooj. So I understand where Student of Allah is coming from since many things I used to believe in and do today I look back in horror to some degree. So I understand the tendency to want to share that with other Muslims who still believe and do many of these things.
Anyways the Koran did attack many aspects of the Talmud and also commented on some of the pagan belief systems. So even if you just quote verses of the Koran many of the verses of the Koran does have critique of other religious persuasions. Sunni Islam came after the Koran so you won't find verses that attack the Sunnah but by looking at how the Koran critiqued the Talmud its not that different the way Student of Allah is doing with the Sunnah.
2.80 And they say "The Fire shall not touch us but for a few numbered days" Say "Have ye taken a promise from God, for He never breaks His promise? or is it that ye say of God what ye do not know?"
Gehinom (Gehenna), according to rabbinic literature, is a place or state where the wicked are temporarily punished after death. ?Gehenna? is sometimes translated as "hell", but the Christian view of hell differs from the Jewish view of Gehenna. Most sinners are said to suffer in Gehenna no longer than twelve months.Those who are too wicked to reach paradise are sometimes said to be punished forever. Other accounts reject the idea that a merciful God would punish anyone forever, in which case those too wicked for purification are destroyed (see annihilationism)
Sanhedrin 57a . A Jew need not pay a gentile ("Cuthean" the wages owed him for work.
The Koran condemned this
3.75. Among the People of the Book are some who, if entrusted with a hoard of gold, will (readily) pay it back; others, who, if entrusted with a single silver coin, will not repay it unless thou constantly stoodest demanding, because, they say, "there is no call on us (to keep faith) with these ignorant (Pagans)." but they tell a lie against God, and (well) they know it.Sanhedrin 106a . Says Jesus' mother was a whore "She who was the descendant of princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters." Also in footnote #2 to Shabbath 104b of the Soncino edition, it is stated that in the "uncensored" text of the Talmud it is written that Jesus mother, "Miriam the hairdresser," had love with many men.
4.156 Quran
That they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge;The famous warning of Jesus Christ about the tradition of men that voids Scripture (Mark 71-13), is in fact, a direct reference to the Talmud, or more specifically, the forerunner of the first part of it, the Mishnah, which existed in oral form during Christ's lifetime, before being committed to writing. Mark chapter 7, from verse one through thirteen, represents Our Lord's pointed condemnation of the Mishnah.
Also
The Schindler's List Quote
The Talmud (i.e., the Babylonian Talmud) text of Sanhedrin 37a restricts the duty to save life to saving only Jewish lives.
The book on Hebrew censorship, written by Jews themselves (Hesronot Ha-shas), notes that some Talmud texts use the universalist phrase
"Whoever destroys the life of a single human being...it is as if he had destroyed an entire world; and whoever preserves the life of a single human being ...it is as if he had preserved an entire world."
However, Hesronot Ha-shas points out that these are not the authentic words of the original Talmud.
In other words, the preceding universalist rendering is not the authentic text of the Talmud and thus, for example, this universalist version which Steven Spielberg in his famous movie, Schindler's List attributed to the Talmud (and which became the motto of the movie on posters and in advertisements), is a hoax and constitutes propaganda intended to give a humanistic gloss to a Talmud which is, in its essence, racist and chauvinist hate literature.
In the authentic, original Talmud text it states that "whoever preserves a single soul of Israel, it is as if he had preserved an entire world" (emphasis supplied). The authentic Talmud text sanctions only the saving of Jewish lives.
The Koran tells us about this and condemns this
5.32 On that account We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land
"According to the Talmud, Jesus was executed by a proper rabbinical court for idolatry, inciting other Jews to idolatry, and contempt of rabbinical authority. All classical Jewish sources which mention his execution are quite happy to take responsibility for it; in the talmudic account the Romans are not even mentioned.
"The more popular accounts--which were nevertheless taken quite seriously--such as the notorious Toldot Yeshu are even worse, for in addition to the above crimes they accuse him of witchcraft. The very name 'Jesus' was for Jews a symbol of all that is abominable and this popular tradition still persists...
The koran tells us
4.157. That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of God.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not-
The Talmud then say
Rosh Hashanah 17a. Christians (minnim) and others who reject the Talmud will go to hell and be punished there for all generations.
Sanhedrin 90a. Those who read the New Testament ("uncanonical books" will have no portion in the world to come.
Shabbath 116a. Jews must destroy the books of the Christians, i.e. the New Testament.
The koran responds by
And they say "None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian." Those are their (vain) desires. Say "Produce your proof if ye are truthful."Nay,-whoever submits His whole self to God and is a doer of good,- He will get his reward with his Lord; on such shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. The Jews say "The Christians have naught (to stand) upon; and the Christians say "The Jews have naught (To stand) upon." Yet they study the (same) Book. Like unto their word is what those say who know not; but God will judge between them in their quarrel on the Day of Judgment. 2.111-113
?Non-Jewish property belongs to the Jew who uses it first? - (Babba Bathra 54b)
?If two Jews have deceived a Non-Jew, they have to split the profit? - (Choschen Ham 183,7)
?Every Jew is allowed to use lies and perjury to bring a Non-Jew to ruin? - (Babha Kama 113a)
?The Jew is allowed to practice usury on the Non-Jew? - (Talmud IV/2/70b)
The koran then says
4.160. For the iniquity of the Jews We made unlawful for them certain (foods) good and wholesome which had been lawful for them;- in that they hindered many from God's Way;-
4.161. That they took usury, though they were forbidden; and that they devoured men's substance wrongfully;- we have prepared for those among them who reject faith a grievous punishment.Note The Torah forbids the Jews from the devouring of Usury ("neshek".See the Old Testament Ex. 22 25;
Le. 25 36-37; De. 2319-20; Ne. 5 7/10; Ps. 15 5; Pr. 288http//www.dubaiforums.com/philosophy-dubai/quran-confirms-torah-and-gospel-but-attacks-talmud-and-trini-t40154.html
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I see ur point. I think its a question of whether one should focus on things that are not Koranic or things that contradict the Koran. Eating with the right hand may not be Koranic and so is circumcission but they do not necessarily contradict the Koran.
There are Koranist who critique hadiths and Sunni jurisprudence as a way to spread the message. Others simply talk aboyt what the Koran teaches. However wehn I debate Sunnis I find myself having to counter many Sunni teachings since many Sunnis will quote Sunni interpretations of the Koran.
Remember that Koranist came to the Koranic persuasion for a variety of reasons. Some left Sunni islam due to what they saw was inconsistent and often puzzling teachings. Some came from a non Sunni background and couldn't care less about what the Sunnah teaches. I came from a Sunni background and I was at one point Ikhawn/salafi" type and used to attend a lot of Islamic conferences and even went with the Tabligh Jama't in their khurooj. So I understand where Student of Allah is coming from since many things I used to believe in and do today I look back in horror to some degree. So I understand the tendency to want to share that with other Muslims who still believe and do many of these things.
Anyways the Koran did attack many aspects of the Talmud and also commented on some of the pagan belief systems. So even if you just quote verses of the Koran many of the verses of the Koran does have critique of other religious persuasions. Sunni Islam came after the Koran so you won't find verses that attack the Sunnah but by looking at how the Koran critiqued the Talmud its not that different the way Student of Allah is doing with the Sunnah.
2.80 And they say "The Fire shall not touch us but for a few numbered days" Say "Have ye taken a promise from God, for He never breaks His promise? or is it that ye say of God what ye do not know?"
Gehinom (Gehenna), according to rabbinic literature, is a place or state where the wicked are temporarily punished after death. ?Gehenna? is sometimes translated as "hell", but the Christian view of hell differs from the Jewish view of Gehenna. Most sinners are said to suffer in Gehenna no longer than twelve months.Those who are too wicked to reach paradise are sometimes said to be punished forever. Other accounts reject the idea that a merciful God would punish anyone forever, in which case those too wicked for purification are destroyed (see annihilationism)
Sanhedrin 57a . A Jew need not pay a gentile ("Cuthean" the wages owed him for work.
The Koran condemned this
3.75. Among the People of the Book are some who, if entrusted with a hoard of gold, will (readily) pay it back; others, who, if entrusted with a single silver coin, will not repay it unless thou constantly stoodest demanding, because, they say, "there is no call on us (to keep faith) with these ignorant (Pagans)." but they tell a lie against God, and (well) they know it.Sanhedrin 106a . Says Jesus' mother was a whore "She who was the descendant of princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters." Also in footnote #2 to Shabbath 104b of the Soncino edition, it is stated that in the "uncensored" text of the Talmud it is written that Jesus mother, "Miriam the hairdresser," had love with many men.
4.156 Quran
That they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge;The famous warning of Jesus Christ about the tradition of men that voids Scripture (Mark 71-13), is in fact, a direct reference to the Talmud, or more specifically, the forerunner of the first part of it, the Mishnah, which existed in oral form during Christ's lifetime, before being committed to writing. Mark chapter 7, from verse one through thirteen, represents Our Lord's pointed condemnation of the Mishnah.
Also
The Schindler's List Quote
The Talmud (i.e., the Babylonian Talmud) text of Sanhedrin 37a restricts the duty to save life to saving only Jewish lives.
The book on Hebrew censorship, written by Jews themselves (Hesronot Ha-shas), notes that some Talmud texts use the universalist phrase
"Whoever destroys the life of a single human being...it is as if he had destroyed an entire world; and whoever preserves the life of a single human being ...it is as if he had preserved an entire world."
However, Hesronot Ha-shas points out that these are not the authentic words of the original Talmud.
In other words, the preceding universalist rendering is not the authentic text of the Talmud and thus, for example, this universalist version which Steven Spielberg in his famous movie, Schindler's List attributed to the Talmud (and which became the motto of the movie on posters and in advertisements), is a hoax and constitutes propaganda intended to give a humanistic gloss to a Talmud which is, in its essence, racist and chauvinist hate literature.
In the authentic, original Talmud text it states that "whoever preserves a single soul of Israel, it is as if he had preserved an entire world" (emphasis supplied). The authentic Talmud text sanctions only the saving of Jewish lives.
The Koran tells us about this and condemns this
5.32 On that account We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land
"According to the Talmud, Jesus was executed by a proper rabbinical court for idolatry, inciting other Jews to idolatry, and contempt of rabbinical authority. All classical Jewish sources which mention his execution are quite happy to take responsibility for it; in the talmudic account the Romans are not even mentioned.
"The more popular accounts--which were nevertheless taken quite seriously--such as the notorious Toldot Yeshu are even worse, for in addition to the above crimes they accuse him of witchcraft. The very name 'Jesus' was for Jews a symbol of all that is abominable and this popular tradition still persists...
The koran tells us
4.157. That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of God.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not-
The Talmud then say
Rosh Hashanah 17a. Christians (minnim) and others who reject the Talmud will go to hell and be punished there for all generations.
Sanhedrin 90a. Those who read the New Testament ("uncanonical books" will have no portion in the world to come.
Shabbath 116a. Jews must destroy the books of the Christians, i.e. the New Testament.
The koran responds by
And they say "None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian." Those are their (vain) desires. Say "Produce your proof if ye are truthful."Nay,-whoever submits His whole self to God and is a doer of good,- He will get his reward with his Lord; on such shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. The Jews say "The Christians have naught (to stand) upon; and the Christians say "The Jews have naught (To stand) upon." Yet they study the (same) Book. Like unto their word is what those say who know not; but God will judge between them in their quarrel on the Day of Judgment. 2.111-113
?Non-Jewish property belongs to the Jew who uses it first? - (Babba Bathra 54b)
?If two Jews have deceived a Non-Jew, they have to split the profit? - (Choschen Ham 183,7)
?Every Jew is allowed to use lies and perjury to bring a Non-Jew to ruin? - (Babha Kama 113a)
?The Jew is allowed to practice usury on the Non-Jew? - (Talmud IV/2/70b)
The koran then says
4.160. For the iniquity of the Jews We made unlawful for them certain (foods) good and wholesome which had been lawful for them;- in that they hindered many from God's Way;-
4.161. That they took usury, though they were forbidden; and that they devoured men's substance wrongfully;- we have prepared for those among them who reject faith a grievous punishment.Note The Torah forbids the Jews from the devouring of Usury ("neshek".See the Old Testament Ex. 22 25;
Le. 25 36-37; De. 2319-20; Ne. 5 7/10; Ps. 15 5; Pr. 288http//www.dubaiforums.com/philosophy-dubai/quran-confirms-torah-and-gospel-but-attacks-talmud-and-trini-t40154.html
So many similarities between Sunniism and Judaism...
Just replace "Jews" with "Muslim" and "Talmud/Mishnah" with "Hadiths/Sunnah".
Sunni / Ahlu Sunnah should be called Judaism 2.0 instead..Salam / Peace
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So many similarities between Sunniism and Judaism...
Just replace "Jews" with "Muslim" and "Talmud/Mishnah" with "Hadiths/Sunnah".
Sunni / Ahlu Sunnah should be called Judaism 2.0 instead..Salam / Peace
Good point.
http//www.houseofdavid.ca/isl_jud.htm
Need I say more? hmm
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Shalom Aleikhem SoA,
I understand what you were discussing but I am not to force anyone except for suggestions.
With respect I disagree with your highlighted sentence above. As I believe that what you were doing is not to be considered as dawah.
Reasons
16125
16125 Invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and good advice, and argue with them in that which is better. Your Lord is fully aware of who is misguided from His path, and He is fully aware of the guided ones.Similar aayaats 2267, 2887
4133
4133 And who is better in saying than he who invites to God, and does good works, and says I am one of those who have submitted.I might be completely wrong but I did not find such reason in your blue part above. And my way also the same, inshaAllah.
12108
12108 Say "This is my way, I invite to God in full disclosure, myself and whoever follows me. And glory be to God; and I am not of the polytheists."Please don't take it wrong, I was saying something similar to brother Bigmo before and he misunderstood the whole thing.
May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path pr
mmKhanShalom Aleikhem,
Sorry, I am not so regular these days. A bit busy with other things, so dont make it to free-minds as regular as before.
Well, you are correct but wrong. D
Ok, let me explain. You assumed that when I invite someone(sunni) to the way of my Lord, I go upto the person and start ripping on Bukhari and his book. You further assumed that my point is to prove Bukhari wrong. I must inform you that it isnt the case. Let me quote what I said to Bigmo in earlier post
ok.. then they would want to be righteous instead of cutting corners to heaven in the name of sunnah. They are more into eating dates and keeping beards to get into heaven, so they reading and implementing principles in Qur'an would make them better.
When you are brain washed with the idea that holding a 2unit salat near kabah and kissing a black stone guarantees your entry to heaven, its not healthy for you. That kind of mentality is held up by HADITHS. So, after they realise that it isnt the case... since they all want to enter heaven, they would do the right things, or atleast think about doing things.
So, if you understand what I said in context, I wanted them to implement Qur'an in life. They have many strange contradictory beliefs which are taught by hadiths, showing them the contrast between Qur'an and hadith so that they realize atleast something is fishy. I can not guide anyone, and who would help a person who does not want to change their own conditions ?
Mr. Khan, it isnt always the case that an audience has full idea about your subject/topic. Majority of the muslims I know can not tell the difference between a teaching from Qur'an and a teaching from Hadith. Leaving that aside, one can not ignore the psychological affect of brain washing. When some thing remain unchallenged for them and they never bother and was never stimulated enough to be bothered about challenging, the case is a bit different. The person's dear/trusted ones concealed what God has revealed and swapped ayaats with hadiths. An everyday traditionalist may not follow hadiths to set partners, rather because he "knows" that its divine and from God. Therefore, in that kind of a situation, simply saying that God said "ABC" means very little to her/him. Doing that is meaningless in such situations.
I shall end with the very quote you began with, but highlight it differently
16125 Invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and good advice, and argue with them in that which is better. Your Lord is fully aware of who is misguided from His path, and He is fully aware of the guided ones.
Peace
------------- Student of Allah -
This is a question that has recently been pushing me into omnistic belief from wich I have recovered. Its simply about the people who actually believe in the Quran and that is why didn't God help them in rejecting the hadith. I reject it but why weren't they helped.
My answer to this is that they are worshiping tradition blindly or that maybe they don't sincierly believe.
I would however like to hear what others think!
The person who wants to go astray will