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  4. The horrifying fate of prostitutes

The horrifying fate of prostitutes

Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved Questions/Comments on the Quran
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  • F Offline
    F Offline
    farida
    wrote on last edited by
    #3

    Salaam,

    I believe that freeing any kind of slaves is our obligation as Muslims, as per

    Ah, what will convey unto thee what the Ascent is! to free a slave, And to feed in the day of hunger. An orphan near of kin, Or some poor wretch in misery

    As I have previously stated, there needs to be law enforcement - the government needs to put it on the national priority. How? Well, I imagine you will have to work for a well-established NGO that deals with this issue. The NGO will need to have intelligence capacity to track and locate institutions that practice sex slavery.

    There you go. Extremely difficult and time consuming, but not impossible. I imagine it will be very rewarding to free at least one sex slave, and that, we should strive for. I hope my 2 cents on this matter helps.

    Salaam.

    Salaam
    First of all trafficking of women is not only done in developing countries, it's big business, done by traffickers, wherever there are readily avalible clients which happen to be men. Turkey is one such country, which topped the list in women trafficking after it opend its door to tourism. After the civil wars in Bosnia and Kosovo vulnerable women ended up in USA and Europe. One such Bosnian prostitute in USA was in the news headlines linked to David Beckham.
    My question was 'how does the Qur'an guide us to deal with such social issues and, as you mentioned enforcement of law, I understand from the Qur'an men are allowed to have women, often refered to as MMA, outside of marriage, but only provided they provide for them in other words take them off street and give them shelter and food etc. I believe this is the only way to discourage men from buying cheap sex as not many are willing to assume responsibilty further then a few hours rate.

    When you are actually successful in getting a sex slave out of the field, you have to help her/him adjust to normal society. Bear in mind that in most developing countries, prostitutes are perceived to be immoral, and trash of the society. They will have difficulty dealing with the negative sentiments that are subjected to them.

    Why are men who do not have means to support are asked to marry from among MMA where as those who have nothing to give they must fast? (sorry I do not have ayat number with me as reference)
    I may sound controvertial, but I am open to debate, on this subject, with the hope of reaching some sort of consensus on how to deal with this problem.
    Peace

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    • M Offline
      M Offline
      Maha
      wrote on last edited by
      #4

      I understand from the Qur'an men are allowed to have women, often refered to as MMA, outside of marriage, but only provided they provide for them in other words take them off street and give them shelter and food etc. I believe this is the only way to discourage men from buying cheap sex as not many are willing to assume responsibilty further then a few hours rate.

      Can you please provide some quranic evidence that MMA are female sex slaves whom men are allowed to have outside marriage?

      And dear farida, you dont help a sex slave by having them in a mans house. Thats still rape. You help sex slaves by giving them proper education so they can earn their living on other ways.

      Secondly, what about male sex slaves? Have you ever heard about giglos?

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      • M Offline
        M Offline
        Maha
        wrote on last edited by
        #5

        Why are men who do not have means to support are asked to marry from among MMA where as those who have nothing to give they must fast? (sorry I do not have ayat number with me as reference)

        Dear farida. You are not quoting the quranic verse properly. Let me quote the verse for you

        Here is the vers 2433
        And let those who are not able to marry continue to be chaste until God enriches them of His Bounty. And if those who are maintained by your oaths seek to consummate the marriage, then document it with them if you find that they are ready, and give them from the wealth of God which He has bestowed upon you.

        So we can see that Quran talks about men AND WOMEN who arent able to marry. Now do you think women who dont have the means to get married shall marry from among their MMA as well?

        You obviously never understood the quran.

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        • M Offline
          M Offline
          Maha
          wrote on last edited by
          #6

          Salaam,

          I believe that freeing any kind of slaves is our obligation as Muslims, as per

          Ah, what will convey unto thee what the Ascent is! to free a slave, And to feed in the day of hunger. An orphan near of kin, Or some poor wretch in misery

          In regards to how to free a sex slave, I don't think it gives you precise guidelines. From memory, a slave can be freed by paying an agreed amount of money to the slave owner. However I am not too sure if the Qur'aanic concept of slave is the same as the contemporary one.

          peace sister. I also believe that. However the word used is Raqab which refers to a prisoner. I think the only way to free slaves is by punishing the 'owners' and 'buyers'. And I cannot see any quranic conept of slavery. Its totally haram to opress other people, and slavery is opression. And i know you agree with that.

          Anyhow, in contemporary society, freeing a sex slave will prove to be extremely difficult. Firstly there are sex slaves who were abducted and trafficked to be sold off as prostitutes. There are cases where young village girls are promised well paying jobs, and in the end they are sold into prostitution by their 'agents'. We are not talking about an individual owning a sex here, we are talking about organised crime. You will be facing syndicates who are backed by the (bribed) police and authority. Giving them money will not be enough, because what they demand will be extravagant. .

          Well sister i dont think its so difficult. Just give the sex slaves proper education and protection from the government so they can earn for their living in other ways. The problem is just, that there is a huge lot of business and money involved for the pimps in this business, and the government dont have control on them due to curroption etc.
          But if no one went to a sex slave there would simply be no sex slaves. So the best way to help sex slaves is to punish people who buy them.

          What can really free the sex slaves is law enforcement where the government is pushed to actually start paying attention to this crime. Unfortunately, it seems that law on sex slavery/ child and woman trafficking have been extremely loose in developing countries where sex slavery exists

          So true. however, keep in mind that males are also victims of sex slavery. We also have male sex slaves.

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          • B Offline
            B Offline
            BornAgain
            wrote on last edited by
            #7

            Salaam,

            I understand from the Qur'an men are allowed to have women, often refered to as MMA, outside of marriage, but only provided they provide for them in other words take them off street and give them shelter and food etc. I believe this is the only way to discourage men from buying cheap sex as not many are willing to assume responsibilty further then a few hours rate.

            I disagree. I believe the Qur'aan commands the believers to marry before they have any sexual intercourse, otherwise it will count as fornication/adultery.

            What is the point of marriage if one can have sex by merely providing shelter and food, without having to go through the nikah process (giving the mahr etc)? Your statement renders marriage less sacred. What you need to bear in mind, is that sexual intercourse needs to be based on a mutual agreement. A man cannot have sex with a woman just by the virtue of his providing food and shelter. Just because he offers financial help, it does not give him any right to have sex with a woman without her consent. It is still rape as Maha said.

            As per Maha said, the verse 2433

            And let those who are not able to marry continue to be chaste until God enriches them of His Bounty. And if those who are maintained by your oaths seek to consummate the marriage, then document it with them if you find that they are ready, and give them from the wealth of God which He has bestowed upon you

            "Those who are maintained by your oaths" or "Maa malakat aymanukum" is written in third person, plural and masculine form. Therefore it cannot be exclusively talking about female 'slaves'.

            May I also ask for clarity in the word "malakat" (from you Maha or anyone who is well versed in Arabic)? I am under the impression that the word refers to past tense, so if we are to literally translate "Maa malakat aymanukum" should it not be "what your right hands posessed"?

            I also need help on the latter part of the verse 2433 where it reads

            "But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet after such compulsion, is Allah Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

            The word "maids" or "fatayaat" has also been translated as servants/slaves (which will render inconsistency because the same translators will also translate Maa malakat aymanukum as slaves). Can you please provide your opinion on that? The latter part of the verse actually concerns exclusively with female maids/servants(or slaves in same translations) since it is written in third person, plural and feminine.

            However the word used is Raqab which refers to a prisoner. I think the only way to free slaves is by punishing the 'owners' and 'buyers'. And I cannot see any quranic conept of slavery. Its totally haram to opress other people, and slavery is opression.

            Hence as I said, I do not think that the Qur'aanic concept of slavery is the same as a contemporary one. It can be a maid who works for someone out of debt, or a prisoner. Not someone who is forced to work under harsh conditions without compensation. If I am not mistaken the literal translation of "fakku raqabatin" means "to free the neck". So it's not exclusively about freeing a physical slave. But do correct me if I am wrong.

            What I have found interesting is that some translators choose to translate all the above Arabic words to be "slaves", though they (may) differ in meanings.

            Well sister i dont think its so difficult. Just give the sex slaves proper education and protection from the government so they can earn for their living in other ways.

            Easier said than done. Thing is you will find it difficult to get an access to sex slaves because they are sheltered by the criminal institutions that traffick them. Even the police has been bribed not to divulge any information in many cases.

            The thing is, the government does not put child and woman trafficking in their priority. In developing countries (at least where I come from), economic growth is the main focus and hence such an issue will not get the attention it deserves. Additionally, the sex slaves are abducted and sold off out of their consent - they are forced to prostitute themselves. I have read many articles on the fate of sex slaves who tried to escape - they are captured again (because the police will be involved) and tortured. This instills fear into them in such a way that they won't ever try to free themselves. Most sex slaves do not choose to be in the field, so you can't say it only takes to educate them to earn their livings in other ways. It's not their livings! They are being sexually enslaved and the money goes to the institutions that force them into prostitution. For these slaves, it's not a job or a means of living.

            But if no one went to a sex slave there would simply be no sex slaves. So the best way to help sex slaves is to punish people who buy them.

            Same goes with any other crimes, really. As I understand it though, prostitution business that deals with trafficked individulas will operate in secret. Hence why I previously mentioned something about working for a dedicated NGO that has intelligence capacity.

            So true. however, keep in mind that males are also victims of sex slavery. We also have male sex slaves.

            I agree. The reason why I focused more on children/female trafficking is because it is more prevalent. Besides the social curse is usually cast on females. At least that is how it is in my home country.

            Salaam.

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            • M Offline
              M Offline
              Maha
              wrote on last edited by
              #8

              I disagree. I believe the Qur'aan commands the believers to marry before they have any sexual intercourse, otherwise it will count as fornication/adultery.

              What is the point of marriage if one can have sex by merely providing shelter and food, without having to go through the nikah process (giving the mahr etc)? Your statement renders marriage less sacred. What you need to bear in mind, is that sexual intercourse needs to be based on a mutual agreement. A man cannot have sex with a woman just by the virtue of his providing food and shelter. Just because he offers financial help, it does not give him any right to have sex with a woman without her consent. It is still rape as Maha said.

              totally agree with you sister. and dont forget that pimps already provide food and shelter to the sex slaves otherwise they wont survive. What farida suggest is just that replace one rapist with another, which is, according to me totally disgusting and against human rights.

              And beside that, adultery - every sexual act outside marriage, is forbidden according to quran if you ask me.

              Those who are maintained by your oaths" or "Maa malakat aymanukum" is written in third person, plural and masculine form. Therefore it cannot be exclusively talking about female 'slaves'

              ma malakat aymanakum doesnt have any gender. so it can both be males and females. the thought about it being 'female slaves' holds no water except if one believes in hadith.

              May I also ask for clarity in the word "malakat" (from you Maha or anyone who is well versed in Arabic)? I am under the impression that the word refers to past tense, so if we are to literally translate "Maa malakat aymanukum" should it not be "what your right hands posessed"?

              Yes its in past!!!! Thats also what bothers me.

              /

              "But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet after such compulsion, is Allah Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

              The word "maids" or "fatayaat" has also been translated as servants/slaves (which will render inconsistency because the same translators will also translate Maa malakat aymanukum as slaves). Can you please provide your opinion on that? The latter part of the verse actually concerns exclusively with female maids/servants(or slaves in same translations) since it is written in third person, plural and feminine
              .

              yes fatyaat means girls. The traanslation you gave is from hadith. But fatyaat means girls. And bagha doesnt means prostitution either. Free minds have another translation of the verse, which is quite better.

              If you ask me me, the verse says, that dont force your girls to anything if they are chaste. For instance, dont force them to marry.

              Hence as I said, I do not think that the Qur'aanic concept of slavery is the same as a contemporary one. It can be a maid who works for someone out of debt, or a prisoner. Not someone who is forced to work under harsh conditions without compensation. If I am not mistaken the literal translation of "fakku raqabatin" means "to free the neck". So it's not exclusively about freeing a physical slave. But do correct me if I am wrong.

              What I have found interesting is that some translators choose to translate all the above Arabic words to be "slaves", though they (may) differ in meanings.

              yes its just as you said. ''to free the neck'. can be any person in dire need to be freed from something, like a prisoner, a slave, a debt slave, a person who cant get out of an abusive relationship etc.

              Easier said than done. Thing is you will find it difficult to get an access to sex slaves because they are sheltered by the criminal institutions that traffick them. Even the police has been bribed not to divulge any information in many cases.

              The thing is, the government does not put child and woman trafficking in their priority. In developing countries (at least where I come from), economic growth is the main focus and hence such an issue will not get the attention it deserves. Additionally, the sex slaves are abducted and sold off out of their consent - they are forced to prostitute themselves. I have read many articles on the fate of sex slaves who tried to escape - they are captured again (because the police will be involved) and tortured. This instills fear into them in such a way that they won't ever try to free themselves. Most sex slaves do not choose to be in the field, so you can't say it only takes to educate them to earn their livings in other ways. It's not their livings! They are being sexually enslaved and the money goes to the institutions that force them into prostitution. For these slaves, it's not a job or a means of living.

              you are right, unfurtunately. More attention to the problem would definately help. You have to free them from the pimps, punish the pimps and do something so that there are no money in this business anymore. 'free their neck'' as quran states. Its the duty of every muslim.

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              • B Offline
                B Offline
                BornAgain
                wrote on last edited by
                #9

                ma malakat aymanakum doesnt have any gender. so it can both be males and females. the thought about it being 'female slaves' holds no water except if one believes in hadith.

                The phrase itself is gender-neutral, but the relative pronoun and pronouns that are tied with "maa malakat aymanukum is masculine plural", e.g.

                = Relative pronoun (masculine plural)
                = Present tense (masculine plural)
                = Relative pronoun "hum" (masculine plural)

                etc.

                Hence why I said it's in masculine, plural form. I do understand that masculine plural can mean a mixture of both male and female. I was just pointing out to Farida that "Maa malakat aymanukum" does not refer to females exclusively.

                And yes, fatayaat can mean young girls. I was just copy and pasting the traditional translations for convenience.

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                • M Offline
                  M Offline
                  Maha
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #10

                  The phrase itself is gender-neutral, but the relative pronoun and pronouns that are tied with "maa malakat aymanukum is masculine plural", e.g.

                  = Relative pronoun (masculine plural)
                  = Present tense (masculine plural)
                  = Relative pronoun "hum" (masculine
                  plural)

                  etc.

                  Hence why I said it's in masculine, plural form. I do understand that masculine plural can mean a mixture of both male and female. I was just pointing out to Farida that "Maa malakat aymanukum" does not refer to females exclusively.

                  And yes, fatayaat can mean young girls. I was just copy and pasting the traditional translations for convenience

                  . Ahaa you are Right, i just never noticed it. But yes ma malakat aymanakum are either males only or males and females. And regarding fatyat Then The only meaning of fatyat is girls. As a native arabic speaker i find it really Strange how someone Can translate girls to slaves or maidens. Thats really unfair and dishonest to The quran. But quran is thank god still clear for righteous People.

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                  • B Offline
                    B Offline
                    Bigmo
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #11

                    . Ahaa you are Right, i just never noticed it. But yes ma malakat aymanakum are either males only or males and females. And regarding fatyat Then The only meaning of fatyat is girls. As a native arabic speaker i find it really Strange how someone Can translate girls to slaves or maidens. Thats really unfair and dishonest to The quran. But quran is thank god still clear for righteous People.

                    Among the Israelites, men commonly acknowledged their concubines, and such women enjoyed the same rights in the house as legitimate wives. The principal difference in the Bible between a wife and a concubine is that wives had dowries, while concubines did not.

                    The concubine may have commanded the same respect and inviolability as the wife. The Hebrew word used in the Levitical rules on sexual relations, which is commonly translated as "wife", is distinct from the Hebrew word that means "concubine". (However, on at least one other occasion it is used to refer a woman who is not a wife - specifically, the handmaid of Jacob's wife.) In the Levitical code, sexual intercourse between a man and a wife of a different man was forbidden and punishable by death for both persons involved. The Bible notes several incidents of intercourse between a man and another man's concubine, and none of them result in capital punishment for either party, although the man to whom the concubine belonged was dishonored by such a relationship. For instance, David is portrayed as having been dishonoured when his concubines had a sexual relationship with his son Absalom. However, this instance is as likely dishonoring to David because it involves a form of incest.

                    Since it was regarded as the highest blessing to have many children, legitimate wives often gave their maids to their husbands to atone, at least in part, if they were barren, as in the cases of Sarah and Hagar, Rachel and Bilhah. The children of the concubine had equal rights with those of the legitimate wife; for example, King Abimelech was the son of Gideon and his concubine. Later biblical figures such as Gideon, David, and Solomon had concubines in addition to many childbearing wives. For example, the Books of Kings says that Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines.

                    In Judaism

                    In Judaism, concubines are referred to by the Hebrew term pilegesh. The term is a non-Hebrew, non-Semitic loanword deriving from the Greek word pallakis, Greek , meaning a mistress staying in house. Or the Aramaic phrase palga isha, meaning half-wife.

                    According to the Babylonian Talmud, the difference between a concubine and a full wife was that the latter received a marriage contract (Hebrewketubah) and her marriage (nissu'in) was preceded by a formal betrothal (erusin), neither being the case for a concubine. But, one opinion in the Jerusalem Talmud argues that the concubine should also receive a marriage contract, but without including a clause specifying a divorce settlement.

                    http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concubinage

                    So its a marriage established by oath only. Here the Koran says that if the partner wants something in writing then give it to her. This is because some men may deny ever having married the women especially when she becomes pregnant or so on. This happened in Egypt when a famous actors son had a marriage done by personal contract between him and this woman and when she got pregnant he denied it was his son. This issue created a storm in Egypt but many clerics were not able to deny the marriage but some did saying marrieges has to be done in public with witnesses and family members being informed. The gov of Egypt also wanted people to register their marriage with the state so as not to create cpnfusion but according to Sunni Islam a marriage is done by oath and two witnesses.

                    This incident tells us why MMA marriages can be a problem since other than the two partners nobody knows about it in many cases. So the Koran says that these kinds of marriages should be done only if someone has no wealth to give dowry or is in a place where he is a stranger etc.

                    It has nothing to do with slavery. Its simply a marriage established by oath only and its not a marriage that gives too much protection to the people involved since its usually done without any legal dcocuments or dowry.

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                    • M Offline
                      M Offline
                      Maha
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #12

                      Among the Israelites, men commonly acknowledged their concubines, and such women enjoyed the same rights in the house as legitimate wives. The principal difference in the Bible between a wife and a concubine is that wives had dowries, while concubines did not.

                      The concubine may have commanded the same respect and inviolability as the wife. The Hebrew word used in the Levitical rules on sexual relations, which is commonly translated as "wife", is distinct from the Hebrew word that means "concubine". (However, on at least one other occasion it is used to refer a woman who is not a wife - specifically, the handmaid of Jacob's wife.) In the Levitical code, sexual intercourse between a man and a wife of a different man was forbidden and punishable by death for both persons involved. The Bible notes several incidents of intercourse between a man and another man's concubine, and none of them result in capital punishment for either party, although the man to whom the concubine belonged was dishonored by such a relationship. For instance, David is portrayed as having been dishonoured when his concubines had a sexual relationship with his son Absalom. However, this instance is as likely dishonoring to David because it involves a form of incest.

                      Since it was regarded as the highest blessing to have many children, legitimate wives often gave their maids to their husbands to atone, at least in part, if they were barren, as in the cases of Sarah and Hagar, Rachel and Bilhah. The children of the concubine had equal rights with those of the legitimate wife; for example, King Abimelech was the son of Gideon and his concubine. Later biblical figures such as Gideon, David, and Solomon had concubines in addition to many childbearing wives. For example, the Books of Kings says that Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines.

                      In Judaism

                      In Judaism, concubines are referred to by the Hebrew term pilegesh. The term is a non-Hebrew, non-Semitic loanword deriving from the Greek word pallakis, Greek , meaning a mistress staying in house. Or the Aramaic phrase palga isha, meaning half-wife.

                      According to the Babylonian Talmud, the difference between a concubine and a full wife was that the latter received a marriage contract (Hebrewketubah) and her marriage (nissu'in) was preceded by a formal betrothal (erusin), neither being the case for a concubine. But, one opinion in the Jerusalem Talmud argues that the concubine should also receive a marriage contract, but without including a clause specifying a divorce settlement.

                      http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concubinage

                      So its a marriage established by oath only. Here the Koran says that if the partner wants something in writing then give it to her. This is because some men may deny ever having married the women especially when she becomes pregnant or so on. This happened in Egypt when a famous actors son had a marriage done by personal contract between him and this woman and when she got pregnant he denied it was his son. This issue created a storm in Egypt but many clerics were not able to deny the marriage but some did saying marrieges has to be done in public with witnesses and family members being informed. The gov of Egypt also wanted people to register their marriage with the state so as not to create cpnfusion but according to Sunni Islam a marriage is done by oath and two witnesses.

                      This incident tells us why MMA marriages can be a problem since other than the two partners nobody knows about it in many cases. So the Koran says that these kinds of marriages should be done only if someone has no wealth to give dowry or is in a place where he is a stranger etc.

                      It has nothing to do with slavery. Its simply a marriage established by oath only and its not a marriage that gives too much protection to the people involved since its usually done without any legal dcocuments or dowry.

                      I fully understand what you mean bigmo. But the thing is, that ma malakat aymanakum is in masculin form, implying that we are most certainly talking about male concubines. I mean, if a woman hasnt the wealth enough to marry, then what can she do?

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                      • B Offline
                        B Offline
                        Bigmo
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #13

                        I fully understand what you mean bigmo. But the thing is, that ma malakat aymanakum is in masculin form, implying that we are most certainly talking about male concubines. I mean, if a woman hasnt the wealth enough to marry, then what can she do?

                        I am not sure what you mean by masculine form.

                        Marrige or any partnership between a man and woman is a two way street. MMA marriages have the problem is that they are much more vulnerable for the women.

                        Egyptian woman shatters social taboo amid sex scandal
                        Published March 9th, 2005 - 1749 GMT

                        In Egypt, a real-life soap opera has come to life.

                        It all started when a pious soap star has been hit with a very public paternity suit by a young woman who claims she bore the actor?s child after having a relationship with him. Subsequently, the mother filed the paternity suit, stirring an unprecedented scandal and prompting national debate over the issue of secret marriage contracts young people are using in order to have sexual relations in a religious society.

                        Hind el-Hinnawy, 27, says she and Ahmed al-Fishawy, a 24-year-old TV star, met on a television set and entered into an Urfi marriage, an unregistered contract often used as cover for affairs. This unofficial arrangement has become popular as a way to evade Islam?s ban on premarital sex.

                        To make things even juicier, Fishawy is a public moralist and follower of Amr Khaled, a charismatic Muslim televangelist. Al-Fishawy is an actor known for public piety. Son of actor Farouq al-Fishawy, he is famous for his role in soap Amma Nour, sitcom Shabab Online and host of Yalla Ya Shabab, in which he gave advise to Muslim youth. It seems, however, that this time around he is in need of some good advise?

                        Hind el-Hinnawy's story might have provoked little more than gossip in other places. But in Egypt with its widespread taboo on sex talk and deep respect for family values, she generated a full-blown scandal when she went public with her decision to bear a child as a single mother and try to prove a popular young actor was the father. Almost nine months after she sued, a judge has ordered DNA paternity tests.

                        Urfi marriages have no official contract and are often kept secret. Although a document is signed in front of witnesses, the marriage can be broken simply by destroying that paper. Such marriages have become more frequent, often for poor Egyptians who cannot afford to marry or as temporary unions for people who want to legitimize their sexual activities in a Muslim society, which has restrictions on premarital sex.

                        In an Urfi marriage, couples repeat the words, "We got married" and pledge commitment before Allah. Usually a paper, stating that the two are married, is written and two witnesses sign it. The Egyptian government did not recognize Urfi marriages until 2000 and the paper could be used only to prove the relationship in court. A woman could not get a divorce since the government did not recognize the marriage in the first place. Under the new personal status law passed in January 2000, however, divorces from Urfi marriages are now recognized.

                        Undocumented Urfi marriages are increasingly popular among Egyptian youth. The skyrocketing costs of marriage force many young couples to wait several years before they actually tie the knot. Egyptian society forbids sex before marriage, so many young people consider the Urfi marriage an ideal solution.

                        Urfi marriages are conducted by a Muslim cleric in the presence of two witnesses, however, they are not officially registered and are not financially binding on the man. Couples married in this way often meet in secret and avoid the expense of renting an apartment.

                        The Urfi marriage, however, can be problematic for the wife. If the husband leaves her without granting her a divorce, she had no legal right to seek a divorce since Urfi marriage was considered illegal under the old status law. Her husband could remarry. The wife is in a more difficult position. If the wife remarries, she can be accused of polyandry which is punishable by seven years in prison in Egypt, or she could remain single for the rest of her life.

                        The new Egyptian law, passed in 2000, recognizes the woman's right to seek divorce from an Urfi marriage. However, the law denies her alimony and child support.

                        There are also controversial, unofficial Urfi marriages, where a couple signs documents declaring themselves married. The couple does not inform their families of the marriage. Many Egyptian clerics are against this type of Urfi marriage calling it a mere cover for pre-marital sex.

                        El-Hinnawy, a costume designer, said when she told the actor she was pregnant, he refused to admit he was the father of the child or even that the marriage arrangement existed - so she hauled him into court. In February, a judge ordered DNA testing to prove whether el-Fishawy is the father of four-month-old Leena.

                        El-Hinnawy, a woman wearing a nose ring and no makeup, told The AP her choice to raise Leena on her own has been difficult, but her face lights up when she talks about her daughter.

                        She said that she was pressured by el-Fishawy and his family to have an abortion. "Even if I wasn't married, I would have kept the baby," she said. "I never considered abortion, which I believe is punished by God. I was dying to be a mother."

                        Several attempts to call el-Fishawy went unanswered. His lawyer, Mamdouh el-Wessimi, told The AP, "We respect the court's decision, and Ahmed will submit to the test and to its result."

                        Feminists in the North African country viewed the case as a chance to fight what they see as the double standards of Egypt's male-dominated society.

                        "We are living in a very, very hypocritical society," el-Hinnawy said. "I'm not justifying wrongs or demanding deviation. I just decided to stand up for my rights, and tell women they shouldn't be weak and tell Egyptian men to think twice before abusing women this way."

                        Others also have spoken for her. Mufti Ali Gomaa, head of Egypt's highest theological authority, Dar al-Ifta, urged el-Fishawy to recognize Leena, saying that the marriage had been valid because it had had a witness and that he had a responsibility to the child. Others defended el-Fishawy, seeing him as a pious man due to the religious programs he hosted, which have since been cancelled amidst the heated scandal.

                        El-Hinnawy and Leena live with her parents in their villa in a Cairo suburb. She said her parents, both university professors, were initially shocked and angry to learn she had been secretly married and was pregnant, but eventually came to support her decision. She said the events of the last year gave her the inspiration to fight. "I want to devote my life to human rights and women rights issues," she said. She is writing a diary to answer her daughter's questions when the child is old enough to start asking about her father. "I will be her friend; I will teach her to be responsible for her decisions," el-Hinnawy said.

                        By filing the public suit, el-Hinnawy surely broke a strict social taboo in her country, and brought into the spotlight yet another challenge Egyptians, as well as other traditional societies, face today.

                        http//www.albawaba.com/news/egyptian-woman-shatters-social-taboo-amid-sex-scandal

                        This tells us why the Koran warned about abuses of these types of bondship. MMAs at least in the Old Testament have no financial protection. The Koran also said regarding MMAs that it should not be pursued for sex pleasures and that it a person can elevate such marriages into proper marriages to do so by paying the dowry and taking the permission of the family. Two things this women did not do when she married Ahmed. But as far as the Koran is concerned as long as there was an agreement between the two parties BY OATH regarding marriage then the marriage is valid. This is why the Koran allows sexual relations between these type of partnership but they carry risks as we can see from this sad story.

                        Good news is that she won the law suit when she proved by DNA that Ahmed was the father.

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                          Maha
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #14

                          I am not sure what you mean by masculine form.

                          Marrige or any partnership between a man and woman is a two way street. MMA marriages have the problem is that they are much more vulnerable for the women.

                          Egyptian woman shatters social taboo amid sex scandal
                          Published March 9th, 2005 - 1749 GMT

                          In Egypt, a real-life soap opera has come to life.

                          It all started when a pious soap star has been hit with a very public paternity suit by a young woman who claims she bore the actor?s child after having a relationship with him. Subsequently, the mother filed the paternity suit, stirring an unprecedented scandal and prompting national debate over the issue of secret marriage contracts young people are using in order to have sexual relations in a religious society.

                          Hind el-Hinnawy, 27, says she and Ahmed al-Fishawy, a 24-year-old TV star, met on a television set and entered into an Urfi marriage, an unregistered contract often used as cover for affairs. This unofficial arrangement has become popular as a way to evade Islam?s ban on premarital sex.

                          To make things even juicier, Fishawy is a public moralist and follower of Amr Khaled, a charismatic Muslim televangelist. Al-Fishawy is an actor known for public piety. Son of actor Farouq al-Fishawy, he is famous for his role in soap Amma Nour, sitcom Shabab Online and host of Yalla Ya Shabab, in which he gave advise to Muslim youth. It seems, however, that this time around he is in need of some good advise?

                          Hind el-Hinnawy's story might have provoked little more than gossip in other places. But in Egypt with its widespread taboo on sex talk and deep respect for family values, she generated a full-blown scandal when she went public with her decision to bear a child as a single mother and try to prove a popular young actor was the father. Almost nine months after she sued, a judge has ordered DNA paternity tests.

                          Urfi marriages have no official contract and are often kept secret. Although a document is signed in front of witnesses, the marriage can be broken simply by destroying that paper. Such marriages have become more frequent, often for poor Egyptians who cannot afford to marry or as temporary unions for people who want to legitimize their sexual activities in a Muslim society, which has restrictions on premarital sex.

                          In an Urfi marriage, couples repeat the words, "We got married" and pledge commitment before Allah. Usually a paper, stating that the two are married, is written and two witnesses sign it. The Egyptian government did not recognize Urfi marriages until 2000 and the paper could be used only to prove the relationship in court. A woman could not get a divorce since the government did not recognize the marriage in the first place. Under the new personal status law passed in January 2000, however, divorces from Urfi marriages are now recognized.

                          Undocumented Urfi marriages are increasingly popular among Egyptian youth. The skyrocketing costs of marriage force many young couples to wait several years before they actually tie the knot. Egyptian society forbids sex before marriage, so many young people consider the Urfi marriage an ideal solution.

                          Urfi marriages are conducted by a Muslim cleric in the presence of two witnesses, however, they are not officially registered and are not financially binding on the man. Couples married in this way often meet in secret and avoid the expense of renting an apartment.

                          The Urfi marriage, however, can be problematic for the wife. If the husband leaves her without granting her a divorce, she had no legal right to seek a divorce since Urfi marriage was considered illegal under the old status law. Her husband could remarry. The wife is in a more difficult position. If the wife remarries, she can be accused of polyandry which is punishable by seven years in prison in Egypt, or she could remain single for the rest of her life.

                          The new Egyptian law, passed in 2000, recognizes the woman's right to seek divorce from an Urfi marriage. However, the law denies her alimony and child support.

                          There are also controversial, unofficial Urfi marriages, where a couple signs documents declaring themselves married. The couple does not inform their families of the marriage. Many Egyptian clerics are against this type of Urfi marriage calling it a mere cover for pre-marital sex.

                          El-Hinnawy, a costume designer, said when she told the actor she was pregnant, he refused to admit he was the father of the child or even that the marriage arrangement existed - so she hauled him into court. In February, a judge ordered DNA testing to prove whether el-Fishawy is the father of four-month-old Leena.

                          El-Hinnawy, a woman wearing a nose ring and no makeup, told The AP her choice to raise Leena on her own has been difficult, but her face lights up when she talks about her daughter.

                          She said that she was pressured by el-Fishawy and his family to have an abortion. "Even if I wasn't married, I would have kept the baby," she said. "I never considered abortion, which I believe is punished by God. I was dying to be a mother."

                          Several attempts to call el-Fishawy went unanswered. His lawyer, Mamdouh el-Wessimi, told The AP, "We respect the court's decision, and Ahmed will submit to the test and to its result."

                          Feminists in the North African country viewed the case as a chance to fight what they see as the double standards of Egypt's male-dominated society.

                          "We are living in a very, very hypocritical society," el-Hinnawy said. "I'm not justifying wrongs or demanding deviation. I just decided to stand up for my rights, and tell women they shouldn't be weak and tell Egyptian men to think twice before abusing women this way."

                          Others also have spoken for her. Mufti Ali Gomaa, head of Egypt's highest theological authority, Dar al-Ifta, urged el-Fishawy to recognize Leena, saying that the marriage had been valid because it had had a witness and that he had a responsibility to the child. Others defended el-Fishawy, seeing him as a pious man due to the religious programs he hosted, which have since been cancelled amidst the heated scandal.

                          El-Hinnawy and Leena live with her parents in their villa in a Cairo suburb. She said her parents, both university professors, were initially shocked and angry to learn she had been secretly married and was pregnant, but eventually came to support her decision. She said the events of the last year gave her the inspiration to fight. "I want to devote my life to human rights and women rights issues," she said. She is writing a diary to answer her daughter's questions when the child is old enough to start asking about her father. "I will be her friend; I will teach her to be responsible for her decisions," el-Hinnawy said.

                          By filing the public suit, el-Hinnawy surely broke a strict social taboo in her country, and brought into the spotlight yet another challenge Egyptians, as well as other traditional societies, face today.

                          http//www.albawaba.com/news/egyptian-woman-shatters-social-taboo-amid-sex-scandal

                          This tells us why the Koran warned about abuses of these types of bondship. MMAs at least in the Old Testament have no financial protection. The Koran also said regarding MMAs that it should not be pursued for sex pleasures and that it a person can elevate such marriages into proper marriages to do so by paying the dowry and taking the permission of the family. Two things this women did not do when she married Ahmed. But as far as the Koran is concerned as long as there was an agreement between the two parties BY OATH regarding marriage then the marriage is valid. This is why the Koran allows sexual relations between these type of partnership but they carry risks as we can see from this sad story.

                          Good news is that she won the law suit when she proved by DNA that Ahmed was the father.

                          The article you quoted actually gave the reason for why women having male MMA are more vulnerable in Egypt

                          The Urfi marriage, however, can be problematic for the wife. If the husband leaves her without granting her a divorce, she had no legal right to seek a divorce since Urfi marriage was considered illegal under the old status law. Her husband could remarry. The wife is in a more difficult position. If the wife remarries, she can be accused of polyandry which is punishable by seven years in prison in Egypt, or she could remain single for the rest of her life.

                          There is no quranic prohibition on polyandry. Hence she can easily remarry without any problems after an urfi marriage. So its the egyptian law which is the problem, not quran. But I am also very happy that she won after she proved her claims with DNA. Thank God we live in 2012, otherwise in Saudi Arabia she would maybe be lashed for fornication!!

                          But I am against urfi marriages since it seems like being without any commitment. Marriage is commitment. But urfi isnt.

                          Peace

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                            Bigmo
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #15

                            The article you quoted actually gave the reason for why women having male MMA are more vulnerable in Egypt

                            The Urfi marriage, however, can be problematic for the wife. If the husband leaves her without granting her a divorce, she had no legal right to seek a divorce since Urfi marriage was considered illegal under the old status law. Her husband could remarry. The wife is in a more difficult position. If the wife remarries, she can be accused of polyandry which is punishable by seven years in prison in Egypt, or she could remain single for the rest of her life.

                            There is no quranic prohibition on polyandry. Hence she can easily remarry without any problems after an urfi marriage. So its the egyptian law which is the problem, not quran. But I am also very happy that she won after she proved her claims with DNA. Thank God we live in 2012, otherwise in Saudi Arabia she would maybe be lashed for fornication!!

                            But I am against urfi marriages since it seems like being without any commitment. Marriage is commitment. But urfi isnt.

                            Peace

                            I am not defending Egyptian law and I never said that the Koran is at fault. Its clear that the Koran did not encourage such marriages as it also did not encourage polygamy. But in the end its all about intention and the Koran did warn people about their intentions and deeds. But i was talking about from a human prespective that MMA marriages are similar in many ways to urfi marriages and the episode we saw from the news article above shows why these type of marriages are not encouraged by the Koran. But there are many people who are poor and can not afford to get married the usual way and do not abuse that. Just like polygamy, there are many who abuse it and many who don't. The important thing is the Koran does not encourage these type of marriages.

                            We can never eliminate abuses from life, its part of human nature. But people should only resort to such marriages if they have no other option as the Koran made clear. However Sunni understanding of these verses are very different. They actually see these verses as talking about female captive prisoners who have become slaves. This is waaaaaayyyy different than what we are talking about.

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                              Maha
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #16

                              I am not defending Egyptian law and I never said that the Koran is at fault. Its clear that the Koran did not encourage such marriages as it also did not encourage polygamy. But in the end its all about intention and the Koran did warn people about their intentions and deeds. But i was talking about from a human prespective that MMA marriages are similar in many ways to urfi marriages and the episode we saw from the news article above shows why these type of marriages are not encouraged by the Koran. But there are many people who are poor and can not afford to get married the usual way and do not abuse that. Just like polygamy, there are many who abuse it and many who don't. The important thing is the Koran does not encourage these type of marriages.

                              I totally agree with you brother. My perception of marriage is commitment and mutual love, whether its a traditionel marriage or through MMA.

                              However Sunni understanding of these verses are very different. They actually see these verses as talking about female captive prisoners who have become slaves. This is waaaaaayyyy different than what we are talking about.

                              The sunni understanding is just so disgusting. The fact that Sunnis not only legalize adultery, but also kidnapping and rape of even married women says a lot about how criminal and disgusting sunnism can be. Coming from a sunni background, I felt myself forced to defend these embarrasing crimes in sunnism to my western friends, like captive and maritial rape, slavery, child marriages, killing of apostates, and you name it - untill there just came a point where I felt so ashamed of my sunni belief that I just got enough and left sunnism altogether. I really didnt wanted to defend crimes anymore. So I just got enough. Thank God Quran saved me!

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                                Bigmo
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #17

                                I totally agree with you brother. My perception of marriage is commitment and mutual love, whether its a traditionel marriage or through MMA.

                                The sunni understanding is just so disgusting. The fact that Sunnis not only legalize adultery, but also kidnapping and rape of even married women says a lot about how criminal and disgusting sunnism can be. Coming from a sunni background, I felt myself forced to defend these embarrasing crimes in sunnism to my western friends, like captive and maritial rape, slavery, child marriages, killing of apostates, and you name it - untill there just came a point where I felt so ashamed of my sunni belief that I just got enough and left sunnism altogether. I really didnt wanted to defend crimes anymore. So I just got enough. Thank God Quran saved me!

                                I was watching a debate on Egyptian Tv about laws of divorce. A salafi wanted to introduce a law that challenges why the legal age of marriage should be 18 and not younger. He also wanted a women to be able to divorce only if she can give the judge a proper reason for that while the man can divorce for no reason. The channel then took some phone calls from women who had abusive husbands and had a hard time to divorce as proving things like abuse and neglect can be difficult. The salafi accused the channel of hiring actors as wives and did not want to believe the stories these women were telling.

                                Anyways, I think that soon this salafi guy will get tired of defending all this. He will someday just decide to leave Sunni islam. You made a good point. There is only so much body punches a boxer can take before the he gets knocked out.

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