Shahr/month in the light of the quran
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Peace Ayman, all,
Thank-you for your interesting analysis
Now, moving on to the question of "shahr ramadan/heat", we see that the start of 2185 can have two meanings
Extreme heat is the one meaning given by the dictionary for the word ramadhan ", can you show me some quranic arguments which support this meaning?
Does"to complete the count" in 2185 refers to the count of the month or of "Ayyam ma3doodat"?
Thanks in advance
2185 doesn't say "whoever was told about "al-shahr"", it says "whoever witnesses "al-shahr"". This is the simplest and most straightforward method that would generate the least discrepancies no matter how primitive or advanced a society is and no matter what man-made calendar system they use.
I agree and I add that Allah doesn't say "whoever witnesses this month" the month in which the Quran was sent down as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion but "whoever witnesses the month i.e. the month of ramadhan.". I consider the month of ramadhan as an ordinary month, a measurable period and in which in the past the Quran was sent down as a guide...
For the moment, I think that the month of ramadhan is the first month of the four restricted month, consequently, we can witness the month of ramadhan by witnessing the crescent/new moon.
In the same chapter, Allah explains us how to determin the four restricted months
- They ask you regarding the new moons, Say ?They are a timing mechanism for the people as well as for Alhajj.? And piety is not that you would enter a home from its back, but piety is whomever is righteous and come to the homes from their main doors. And be aware of God that you may succeed.
I deduce that the new moons can be WITNESSED by everybody and probably it is the best way of timing mechanism.
I don't think that Allah let us to guess how to witness the month of ramadhan, the answer is in the same chapter.
Allah knows best.
Peace and best wishes
Marie
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peace All,
I did a brief study of bayt a while ago and I made some notes about 2189, albeit they were rough
2189 = implies physical "home". Righteousness is not about entering the home from the back entrance. This may be referring to a belief practiced by some at the time (Y. Ali mentions this in his footnotes). So do as you normally do, enter via the front entrance.
Context seems strange however, due to the question being about the moon then suddenly switching to the entrance topic. In Y. Ali's notes, he mentions that this is now a muslim proverb meaning (1) If you enter a society, respect its manners and customs. (2) If you want to acheive an object honourably go about it openly and not "by the back door". (3) Do not beat about the bush. (4) If you wish success in an undertaking, provide all the necessary instruments for it. Interestingly, taking the proverb meaning of this verse may make the context of the verse make more sense, as it mentions 'al-hajj' (the debate/challenge). Is there evidence tracing this proverb back to Classical Arabic sources?Wakas
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PEACE AYMAN, MARIE, WAKAS, ALL
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Before the hijra, what calendar was being used and was there a month in it called Ramadan?
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Where does Allah mention using the moon to determine when fasting should begin or end?
2183 O you who believe! fasting is prescribed for you, as it was prescribed for those before you, so that you may guard (against evil).
- Who, are the believers being mentioned in the above ayat and what prescribed fast were they doing?
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Peace David,
Would it not be more difficult to witness a full moon with the eye (i.e. without having counted the number of days from the start of a cycle), compared to the day after a new moon?
Seeing the full moon is easy because the full moon is symmetric. Therefore, the way to spot the full-moon is to look at the two sides and compare them. If they are exactly the same size then it is a full moon and there is no need whatsoever to count the days from the last full-moon.
On the other hand, if you rely on the crescent of the new-moon, then you would DEFINITELY have to count the number of days because there are in fact TWO crescent moons one at the end and another at the beginning of the cycle. Hence, if you didn't keep track of the number of days and happen to go outside and notice a crescent, you will not know right away if it is the beginning or end of the cycle and you will have to wait until the next day to see if it disappeared or became larger.
Personally, I find it very difficult to know exactly when a full moon occurs. Whenever it is plus or minus a few days from the actual full moon, it looks full to me. (This could be due to inexperience?)
If you look for the symmetry, it will be easier for you.
Seeing the moon after a new moon tends to be easier.
Seeing the new moon is a lot harder because it is very faint. Unless you are in an optimal viewing location, most people would only be able to see the crescent a day or two after the actual new moon.
Just think to yourself, how many times have you personally seen a full moon and how many times have you personally seen the new moon. Most people see the full moon most of the months.
Why do you think EVERY YEAR there are big arguments between various sects about when Ramadan started?
With all best wishes and peace,
Ayman
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Peace Taj,
The verb "to witness", the equivalent of the Arabic is, in English the same way as in Arabic, not usually used with something as visible as the full moon. "To witness" is used in much more difficult situations, situations where only "few" could have "witnessed"!
The Arabic dictionaries (or English ones for that matter) don't mention anything about any "difficulty". The verse clearly says that fasting is for the person who WITNESSED it ("mn shahid minkum al-shahr fa lyasumh"). Hence, what you are saying implies that only "few" could fast.
Peace,
Ayman.
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Peace Marie,
Extreme heat is the one meaning given by the dictionary for the word ramadhan ", can you show me some quranic arguments which support this meaning?
The only derivative from "rmdh" in the great reading is the word "ramadhan", which occurs only once. Hence, there is no way to compare directly the meaning.
Perhaps, an indirect argument is from verses such as 2217 where we know that there is big fighting during "al-shahr al-haram". We also know that the whole context of chapter 9 (or the very long chapter 8, since the "bism Allah" are the only seperators) is about fighting the idolaters who broke their treaty. 981 indicates that the time of a particularly big fight that the hypocites were fearful from was a hot time of the year.
Notice also that shortly after 982, 986 talks about a chapter descending at that time and we know that "shahr ramadhan" is when the great reading was descended.
Hence, circumstantial evidence supports that "al-shahr al-haram" is a hot time of the year. This plus the dictionary meaning is the best evidence we have so far. Hence, unless someone can find a more suitable meaning, the meaning of "heat" will have to be adopted.
Does"to complete the count" in 2185 refers to the count of the month or of "Ayyam ma3doodat"?
Thanks in advance
The word "shahr" doesn't mean "month". I think that it refers to "ayyam ma3doodat". I don?t yet agree with the view that "ma3doodat" means "few". The word "3adad" simply means "count" and "ma3doodat" simply means "counted".
I agree and I add that Allah doesn't say "whoever witnesses this month" the month in which the Quran was sent down as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion but "whoever witnesses the month i.e. the month of ramadhan.". I consider the month of ramadhan as an ordinary month, a measurable period and in which in the past the Quran was sent down as a guide...
I don't agree that "shahr" means month.
For the moment, I think that the month of ramadhan is the first month of the four restricted month, consequently, we can witness the month of ramadhan by witnessing the crescent/new moon.
I would rephrase what you are saying to clarify it as follows
"The full-moon cycle of heat is the first full-moon cycle in the four restricted full-moon cycles, consequently, we can witness the full-moon cycle of heat by witnessing the full moon in the hottest time of the year."
The above gives the complete information we need in order to know exactly the correct timing of the fast.
In the same chapter, Allah explains us how to determin the four restricted months
- They ask you regarding the new moons, Say ?They are a timing mechanism for the people as well as for Alhajj.? And piety is not that you would enter a home from its back, but piety is whomever is righteous and come to the homes from their main doors. And be aware of God that you may succeed.
That is not how to determine the restricted full-moon cycles. The new-moons times the 7aj/bargain by telling us when it will END.
I deduce that the new moons can be WITNESSED by everybody and probably it is the best way of timing mechanism.
The fact is that unlike the full-moon, the new moons CANNOT be witnessed by everybody. I they were then we wouldn't have arguments every year amongst different countries and sects about when the fasting should start.
I don't think that Allah let us to guess how to witness the month of ramadhan, the answer is in the same chapter.
Yes, the answer is provided in the great reading.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman.
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Peace brother Wakas,
I did a brief study of bayt a while ago and I made some notes about 2189, albeit they were rough
2189 = implies physical "home". Righteousness is not about entering the home from the back entrance. This may be referring to a belief practiced by some at the time (Y. Ali mentions this in his footnotes). So do as you normally do, enter via the front entrance.
Context seems strange however, due to the question being about the moon then suddenly switching to the entrance topic. In Y. Ali's notes, he mentions that this is now a muslim proverb meaning (1) If you enter a society, respect its manners and customs. (2) If you want to acheive an object honourably go about it openly and not "by the back door". (3) Do not beat about the bush. (4) If you wish success in an undertaking, provide all the necessary instruments for it. Interestingly, taking the proverb meaning of this verse may make the context of the verse make more sense, as it mentions 'al-hajj' (the debate/challenge). Is there evidence tracing this proverb back to Classical Arabic sources?I think that the meaning here is the front door where we can OBVIOUSLY enter from and there is NO confusion. On the other hand, houses can have many backdoors and windows that are not obvious places to enter from.
The front door (entrance) of the 7ajj is the ONE full-moon that is obvious and that there is no confusion about, the back (end) are the obscure crescents.
Therefore crescents time the 7ajj by telling us when it ENDED.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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Peace brother PB,
- Before the hijra, what calendar was being used and was there a month in it called Ramadan?
The word "shahr" doesn't mean month. It means "full-moon". The "full-moon in the heat" is a natural cosmic event not a proper name.
A proper name is a meaningless label, hence today so-called Ramadan occurs in October, which is not the hottest time of the year (summer solstice).
- Where does Allah mention using the moon to determine when fasting should begin or end?
The word "shahr" itself means full-moon.
2183 O you who believe! fasting is prescribed for you, as it was prescribed for those before you, so that you may guard (against evil).
- Who, are the believers being mentioned in the above ayat and what prescribed fast were they doing?
What was prescribed was abstinence. It could be abstinence from talking, from food, from sex, or from any other desire. 2187 then clarifies what it is to abstain from.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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salam everyone,
for those who are claiming that shahr doesn't mean month, i am just curious... then WHAT is a month actually called?? what was the nomenclature of the calendrical system, since clearly there was one present even before islam.
as far the question of what the beginning of the month is (full moon verses hilal)... i also agree that it makes much more sense to start the month with the sighting of the hilal. An argument was made that it is more accurate (since hilal occurs at both the beginning and the end of the month but full moon only once).. but in the desert, the sky does not just disappear for several consecutive days! at night, nothing is brighter and more obvious than the moon. And if you can put yourself in their shoes, it makes much more sense to start the month with the NEW presence of the hilaal (a stark contrast, either there's a hilaal or there isn't) versus a full moon or NEAR full moon which is much tougher to discern, drawing a line and comparing the halves, 100% symmetric versus 90% symmetric. that is too convoluted a system, and it would be much easier to just say either it's there (hilaal) or it's not there (new moon, i.e. invisible). and indeed all historical evidence points to that, and indeed there can be no obvious theory to describe what advantage there would be to flip-flop at some period in time.
Which brings me to another question... is it just me, or are people on this forum being skeptical just for the sake of being skeptical?? For example, some claiming that the Quran should not be titled the Quran. Forget the fact that the Quran refers to itself as the Quran about 70 times.. but what difference does it make one way or the other? It seems people are just trying to be skeptical and put out some wacky theory for really no gain other than attention or intellectual passtime. nothing can be gained from that kind of attitude.
wassalam
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peace Ayman, all,
Perhaps, an indirect argument is from verses such as 2217 where we know that there is big fighting during "al-shahr al-haram". We also know that the whole context of chapter 9 (or the very long chapter 8, since the "bism Allah" are the only seperators) is about fighting the idolaters who broke their treaty. 981 indicates that the time of a particularly big fight that the hypocites were fearful from was a hot time of the year.
I think the verse 981 is not decisive if the length of hot time = several months 4, 5, ...
(981) doesn't imply a specific period of extreme heat.
If the four restricted months correspond to the season of autumn in order to preserve wildlife in the northern hemisphere and the month of ramadhan is the first retricted month, I deduce that it could not be a month of exteme heat.
The season of automn could be a hot period..
What do you think about the chapter 106; we are told that Quraysh accomplish their journey in winter and summer; I deduce they don?t travel during the season of autumn which could correspond to the period of the four restricted month and where they receive "alhujjaj / Pilgrims" (919).
The word "shahr" doesn't mean "month".
The full-moon cycle is not the alone possibility (996)
- Initiator of morning and Maker of the night to reside in; and the sun and the moon for counting. Such is the measure of the Noble, the Knowledgeable.
I think that it refers to "ayyam ma3doodat". I don?t yet agree with the view that "ma3doodat" means "few". The word "3adad" simply means "count" and "ma3doodat" simply means "counted".
I consider "Few" as a consequence of the term "counted", If abstinence is decreed for us during a whole month or two months, We should read a month instead of "counted days" in the same way in 492.
In the same chapter, Allah explains us how to determin the four restricted months
- They ask you regarding the new moons, Say ?They are a timing mechanism for the people as well as for Alhajj.? And piety is not that you would enter a home from its back, but piety is whomever is righteous and come to the homes from their main doors. And be aware of God that you may succeed.
That is not how to determine the restricted full-moon cycles. The new-moons times the 7aj/bargain by telling us when it will END.
I don't agree, the new moon could indicate both the beginning and the end and which is the begenning of the following month.
Why do you say that the new moons CANNOT be witnessed by everybody?
There is a solution to every problem, if I cannot witness it and my neighbor can witness it, it is sufficient.
Thanks
Marie
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Peace Marie, all,
I think the verse 981 is not decisive if the length of hot time = several months 4, 5, ...
(981) doesn't imply a specific period of extreme heat.
If the four restricted months correspond to the season of autumn in order to preserve wildlife in the northern hemisphere and the month of ramadhan is the first retricted month, I deduce that it could not be a month of exteme heat.
The season of automn could be a hot period..
What do you think about the chapter 106; we are told that Quraysh accomplish their journey in winter and summer; I deduce they don?t travel during the season of autumn which could correspond to the period of the four restricted month and where they receive "alhujjaj / Pilgrims" (919).
Ancient Arabs used a 5 season system and sometimes even a 6 season system NOT 4 as we have nowadays.
In the 5 season system, they had a season called "qayz" between "sayf" (which was spring- early summer) and "karif". The time of intense heat ("ramadhan") would have fallen in "qayz" NOT "sayf".
The 6 season system split "kharif" into "rabi3 al-thani" (second spring = early fall) and "kharif" (late fall). In this system each season lasted two months.
The word "shahr" doesn't mean "month".
The full-moon cycle is not the alone possibility (996)
- Initiator of morning and Maker of the night to reside in; and the sun and the moon for counting. Such is the measure of the Noble, the Knowledgeable.
Right now, given all the evidence, the full-moon cycle the best available interpretation.
I consider "Few" as a consequence of the term "counted", If abstinence is decreed for us during a whole month or two months, We should read a month instead of "counted days" in the same way in 492.
I still have to think about this. Why can't 30 days be "counted"? Can't we count to 30?
492 speaks of fasting 2 full-moon cycles NOT 2 months.
I don't agree, the new moon could indicate both the beginning and the end and which is the begenning of the following month.
How do you know that the moon is new wihout having to keep track of the cycle? Remember, there are two crescents. With the full moon, you don't have to keep track of the cycle and it is obvious to everybody.
Why do you say that the new moons CANNOT be witnessed by everybody?
If they were witnessed by everybody, then why do people differ on the start of Ramadhan EVERY year?
There is a solution to every problem, if I cannot witness it and my neighbor can witness it, it is sufficient.
Then according to 2185 ONLY your neighbor should fast because you DIDN'T witness it.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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Peace brother Shuaib,
for those who are claiming that shahr doesn't mean month, i am just curious... then WHAT is a month actually called?? what was the nomenclature of the calendrical system, since clearly there was one present even before islam.
Please see the following "pre-quranic" Southern Arabic inscription
http//www.mnh.si.edu/epigraphy/e_pre-islamic/fig04_sabaean_img.htm
Please note line 3 where month is actually written as ("warkh") and NOT "shahr".
as far the question of what the beginning of the month is (full moon verses hilal)... i also agree that it makes much more sense to start the month with the sighting of the hilal. An argument was made that it is more accurate (since hilal occurs at both the beginning and the end of the month but full moon only once).. but in the desert, the sky does not just disappear for several consecutive days! at night, nothing is brighter and more obvious than the moon.
According to this only poeple in the desert should fast because only they can witness.
And if you can put yourself in their shoes, it makes much more sense to start the month with the NEW presence of the hilaal (a stark contrast, either there's a hilaal or there isn't)
If what you are saying is true then how come people differ EVERY year about when Ramadan starts?
They even differ in countries that are mostly deserts.
versus a full moon or NEAR full moon which is much tougher to discern, drawing a line and comparing the halves, 100% symmetric versus 90% symmetric.
It is easy to spot whether a circle is symmetric or not and everybody is able to see the full moon and not just people living in the desert.
that is too convoluted a system, and it would be much easier to just say either it's there (hilaal) or it's not there (new moon, i.e. invisible). and indeed all historical evidence points to that, and indeed there can be no obvious theory to describe what advantage there would be to flip-flop at some period in time.
What historical evidence? The God is telling ALL people REGARDLESS of what calendar system they use EXACTLY when to start the fast based on cosmic phenomena NOT based on some monthly calendar.
Which brings me to another question... is it just me, or are people on this forum being skeptical just for the sake of being skeptical??
It is not "just you". The majority of people think that way too.
For example, some claiming that the Quran should not be titled the Quran. Forget the fact that the Quran refers to itself as the Quran about 70 times..
It also refers to OTHER readings/"quran" in 1331 and 1788 so the word "quran" is not a name of only this honorable reading/"quran". Moreover, the word "quran" has a meaning and is not meaningless, hence it must be translated. Perhaps if people know the meaning they would READ it and understand it for themselves instead of hanging it on their walls and getting their clergy to read it and understand it for them.
but what difference does it make one way or the other?
Just because you can't see the difference, it doesn't mean that in TRUTH there is none.
It seems people are just trying to be skeptical and put out some wacky theory for really no gain other than attention or intellectual passtime. nothing can be gained from that kind of attitude.
I can't speak for everybody, but I know that I gained a lot of knowledge from those debates.
I hope you will too.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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Salaamun alaikum Ayman, Marie, Wakas and all,
Very fascinating discussion indeed. Thanks for this. I'd like to point out something if I may.
2/189 uses the word 'ahillat' which you seem to think the singular is 'hilaal'. Its using the second 'ha' (NOT the one after jim, like the 'halal' food 'ha').
Last night, I noticed something
2/173 , 5/3 and other food prohibition verses uses the SECOND 'ha' in thier 'uhilla', quite unlike 2/187 (the made halal for u on night of the fast ' verse) which uses the first 'ha'
The 'uhilla' of 2/173, 5/3 are of THE SAME root as 2/189's 'ahillat', thereby throwing off 'halal' food labels worldwide (hehe).
Please comment on this.
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Peace brother mq,
Very fascinating discussion indeed. Thanks for this. I'd like to point out something if I may.
2/189 uses the word 'ahillat' which you seem to think the singular is 'hilaal'. Its using the second 'ha' (NOT the one after jim, like the 'halal' food 'ha').
Last night, I noticed something
2/173 , 5/3 and other food prohibition verses uses the SECOND 'ha' in thier 'uhilla', quite unlike 2/187 (the made halal for u on night of the fast ' verse) which uses the first 'ha'
The 'uhilla' of 2/173, 5/3 are of THE SAME root as 2/189's 'ahillat', thereby throwing off 'halal' food labels worldwide (hehe).
Please comment on this.
I think that "uhil" in 2173 and 53 means "offered (food)". In such case "ahila(t)", if derived from the same meaning would mean something like "(food) offerings". Although you make an interesting observation, especially given that the "7ajj"/bargain involves food donations, I don't think that "offerings" would make much sense in the context 2189 and "crescents" seems to fit better.
With all best wishes and peace,
Ayman
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Peace Ayman, all,
Hence, if you didn't keep track of the number of days and happen to go outside and notice a crescent, you will not know right away if it is the beginning or end of the cycle and you will have to wait until the next day to see if it disappeared or became larger.
This is incorrect. Depending on whether it is the beginning or end of a cycle, the moon crescent will be on different sides. If the cycle is ending, the crescent will be on the left side. If the cycle is beginning, the crescent will be on the right side.
I still believe it is easier to see the difference between no moon, and moon; like digital logic, either a '0' or '1'. Discerning symmetry in the moon seems more difficult.
I also agree with Shuaib's observation that in the desert, the moon is much more apparent. Also, let us not forget that living in the city, or even the suburbs, where we are surrounded by the presence of light (any light, even if it is not directly visible), will make a huge difference in how bright the sky appears.
One needs to only go camping in a remote area to realize how much of the night sky we ordinarily do not see.Lastly, I don't believe one can necessarily take the Quran out of its geography and try to apply it everywhere. I think we should understand this topic as a general idea of abstaining for a lunar cycle (or however many days one understands it as).
For instance, where I live (temperate rainforest), it is not uncommon to rain (or be heavily overcast with clouds) for one consecutive week, during which time the moon is not visible at all. Does that mean my fast should wait until the next lunar cycle when I can "visibly witness" the new moon (or full moon)?
What if by the time the next cycle comes around, it has again been raining for several days and I can't "visibly witness" the new moon (or full moon)?
Should I wait another month and hopefully it won't be raining the next time around?I think witnessing does not need to be a physical witnessing.
peace
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Salaamun alaikum Ayman,
I think that "uhil" in 2173 and 53 means "offered (food)". In such case "ahila(t)", if derived from the same meaning would mean something like "(food) offerings". Although you make an interesting observation, especially given that the "7ajj"/bargain involves food donations, I don't think that "offerings" would make much sense in the context 2189 and "crescents" seems to fit better
.Ok, so you interpret 'maa uhilla lighairillah bihi' as 'what is offered for other than Allah with it' ? I.e, meat which is gotten by uttering names of 'other gods' ?
I'm beginning to wonder this because 'halal meat' which we get isn't given free, its actually for the sake of profit, not Allah. (that's an irrelevant issue, btw)What is ur interpretation of al-hajj please ?
thanks
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Peace be upon you Ayman,
What can I say man, fantastic as usual!!!!
I cant tell you how excited I am right now! I am sitting here cathcing up on this thread and pumping my fist in the air like I am watching a football game!
We are so close to the answer!
Can someone teach me how to put pictures into my posts. I have some intersting things to share regarding ancient Kemetic(egyptian) teachigs and the moon (when the time is right).
I need time to reflect on this all, I hope I can add something soon.
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Peace be upon you MQ,
Could you please elaborate more on what you are explaining. I am lost and want to be able to think it over with everyone else.
Thanks Bro.
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Peace Shuaib,
Which brings me to another question... is it just me, or are people on this forum being skeptical just for the sake of being skeptical?? For example, some claiming that the Quran should not be titled the Quran. Forget the fact that the Quran refers to itself as the Quran about 70 times.. but what difference does it make one way or the other? It seems people are just trying to be skeptical and put out some wacky theory for really no gain other than attention or intellectual passtime. nothing can be gained from that kind of attitude.
Nobody knows about people's intentions, except Allah of course!
But then let them do what they like, really. Personally, I find it stimulating to read new thoughts even if they were proven wrong later!Taj
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Salaam David,
You are right in what you mentioned earlier, and most certainly so in your last sentence
I think witnessing does not need to be a physical witnessing.
The problem is in the translation. The Arabic verb Shahida/Yashhadu cannot always be translated as " to witness". It could mean "to admit" as in , for example. It could mean "to testify" as in . It could mean " to agree" as in . Or "to argue" or "to question" as in ?and so on
In the case of it certainly is much more than just what meets the eye.
If we want to translate "to witness" into Arabic then the translation would be Shahida/Yashhadu
But to translate the Arabic into English then the possibilities are much broader.Taj
