How sex before Marriage is not haram (prohibited) according to the Quran

[Nafi]

Can anyone provide all verse (alongside possible context) with MMA

[Wakas]

peace Nafi, all,

These days it is extremely easy to find every occurrence of any word or phrase.

All you do is if you know just one verse where this word or term occurs, go to corpus.quran.com and type in the chapterverse number. It brings up the word for word for you, then you scroll down to the word you want, click on it and it brings up every occurrence in The Quran with that specific word form and displays the root.

I strongly recommend everyone who does not use Quran study tools, to do so www.StudyQuran.org

You will find the quality of your Quran study to improve dramatically.

Even if you are a master of Classical Arabic. Because even if you have such knowledge, unless you can couple that with a Quran concordance and multiple translations/viewpoints you wont get far.

How to read and study The Quran?
http//www.quran434.com/study-method.html

[Nafi]

Thank you so much wakas, I intend to study classical arabic

[Amazigh]

Peace all
peace

This is an article i wrote. My first on a topic in Quran. If you read it, please let me know what you think

The purpose of this article is to argue against the widely accepted belief that the Quran prohibits sex before marriage. I intend to do this by using the Quran to justify a case of pre-marital sex where it is acceptable in the light of the Quran.

Unless you take the root Zay-Nun-Ya or Fa-Ha-Shin to literally mean premarital sex, the prohibition of sex before marriage is not stated in the Quran. There are also no verses in the Quran where sex is made exclusive to marriages. Thus sex is not exclusive to marriages and can be done outside of wedlock. The fact that sex is not explicitly prohibited does not mean that it is ok to have sex with anyone under any circumstance. The Quran places restrictions and limitations which prevent such a scenario. There are two limitations which I will point out

The first limitation I will explain via the following Verses of 235-6

235 And they keep covered their private parts.
236 Except around their spouses (azwaaj), or those who are maintained by their oaths (ma malakat aymanukum), they are free from blame.
237 But whoever seeks anything beyond this, then these are the transgressors.

From these verses, it is clear that none should have access to the private parts except the following two categories Spouses (Azwaaj) and those who are committed to you by oaths (ma malakat aymanukum) Thus SO FAR sex can only be done with those two categories of people. However this presents us with a problem as anyone could be committed to an individual by oath. Thus theoretically if an orphan is committed to you by oath.....then he can have access to your private parts.
This is where the second limitation comes in

Fa-Ha-Shin which has the possible following meanings
became excessive/immoderate/enormous/exorbitant/overmuch/beyond measure, foul/bad/evil/unseemly/indecency/abominable, lewd/gross/obscene, committing excess which is forbidden, transgress the bounds/limits, avaricious, adultery/fornication.

An example of the usage of Fa-Ha-Shin can be seen in 1732 And do not come near adultery, for it is lewdness and an evil path.

If we take lewdness into account, then it becomes clear that showing your private parts to an orphan who is committed to you by oath is forbidden (unless you have a really good and un-lewd reason to do so which is very unlikely) Thus (though highly unlikely) no one can claim that they were showing their private parts to their orphan and then justify themselves with verses such as 235-6. Such an act will go strongly against reason and heart in which their justification becomes invalid just by that alone. Nevertheless for the purposes of this article, it is an act of lewdness indicated by reason and heart and thus prohibited by the Quran. Thus this takes out the possibility of all gross acts such as the example given.
I will now discuss some of the possible objections to my argument.

One possible objection to my argument, is the following verse 2433

And let those who are not able to marry continue to be chaste until God enriches them of His Bounty. And if those who are maintained by your oaths seek to consummate the marriage, then document it with them if you find that they are ready, and give them from the wealth of God which He has bestowed upon you. And do not force your young women to need if they have desired to be independent, in order that you may make a gain in the goods of this worldly life. And if anyone has compelled them, then for their compulsion, God is Forgiving, Merciful.

It requests of those who are unable to marry to remain chaste implying that they should not have sex until they have married. I disagree with this translation and understanding for the following reason

If we look at a word by word translation, the word chaste actually isn?t there. What?s actually used is abstain. But his could mean to abstain from something different to sex such as abstaining from unlawful sex and not sex as a whole.

Another possible objection
It may be argued that the permission to expose the private parts to those you are committed to by oath given in the Quran does not include the permission to have sex. This is not the case as in order for something to be prohibited, it needs to be stated in the Quran. If it is not stated, then it is not prohibited and as sex is not prohibited beyond the limits already discussed, then it is permitted. Consider the following If we are to say that the private parts (in the case of those who are committed to an individual by oath) are for exposure only and nothing more, then this becomes problematic. Imagine a surgeon attempting to operate on an individual?s private part. The surgeon can see the private part of the individual as the surgeon is committed to the individual by oath however the surgeon will not be able to go beyond seeing the private part (even though the individual has consented to operating on the private part) and thus be unable to a operate on the individual. This would be the case if we were to accept that the private parts can only be exposed and nothing more can be done to them.

Moving on....
The concept of lewdness is subjective. What may appear lewd to an individual may appear normal to another. Consider a one night stand. Some will consider the act as lewd and some will think it acceptable. Topics such as a one night stand are controversial and open to debate. However when the act of sex is done between a couple who are both morally upright and are comfortable with each other and are not rushing one another and it does not go against their reason and heart prior to the act, then I see no controversy in such a case. I doubt that in such a case there is any lewdness. If anyone objects to this, please indicate the lewdness you pick out from this.

In conclusion, pre-marital sex is not prohibited in the Quran. There are clear limitations and subjective limitations. Issues such as a one night stand may possibly be justified in the light of the Quran. As outrageous as this claim may appear to some, I truly believe that it may hold some truth.

The end.

Some addiotional points

In a discussion with a friend, when attempting to argue against one night stands, I could not get anywhere as his argument was clearly the more reasonable and stronger. I will present a revised summary of our discussion What could be wrong with two healthy (no disabilities such as down-syndrome or any influence of alcohol) and responsible people agreeing to have sex on one night even though they have just met on the night? I responded by saying that that would make sex meaningless and without passion. But would it necessarily do this? I cannot tell. And even if it does, how could it be wrong when both have agreed to it and it?s not harming anyone else? (please note this was an argument with my friend which I have attempted to summarise. What I have written down isn?t exactly what was said but rather the key points pointed out and discussed. My purpose of this example was to show the importance of reason and how someone like my friend could justify himself in the sight of God)

I could not answer him and considered that he might be right and that my rejection of his view is purely based on my upbringing and not of my reasoning. My heart did object to it at first but I tried to view the act in a different and more positive light in order to be unbiased, and my heart did not object to it anymore. Before i was viewing this act in a negative light and that is why i believe my heart objected to it then. But both scenarios that i attmepted to comprehend can take place in reality. The negative more likely to occure then the positive. I dislike the idea of a one night stand personally.

If I am not mistaken, virginity in the Iranian culture is seen as a good thing and I believe that this is similar amongst Quranists. Ironically virginity in some places and in the sight of some people is seen as a bad thing. With the use of reason and the Quran, hopefully we will get to the truth.

peace

I'm shocked by this news. If you are doubt, you can better not do it. tempt The servants of God are not in doubt. And what about fatherless children left behind with mother, by sex before marriage? And centuries ago, when there was no pill and condom?

Ahoedoe bilahie mina shetan irazjim >

In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful. pr

And as for those who are guilty of an indecency from among your women, call to witnesses against them four (witnesses) from among you; then if they bear witness confine them to the houses until death takes them away or Allah opens some way for them.

And as for the two who are guilty of indecency from among you, give them both a punishment; then if they repent and amend, turn aside from them; surely Allah is Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.

And she who guarded her chastity, so We breathed into her of Our inspiration and made her and her son a sign for the nations.

(This is) a chapter which We have revealed and made obligatory and in which We have revealed clear communications that you may be mindful.

(As for) the fornicatress and the fornicator, flog each of them, (giving) a hundred stripes, and let not pity for them detain you in the matter of obedience to Allah, if you believe in Allah and the last day, and let a party of believers witness their chastisement.

The fornicator shall not marry any but a fornicatress or idolatress, and (as for) the fornicatress, none shall marry her but a fornicator or an idolater; and it is forbidden to the believers.

And those who accuse free women then do not bring four witnesses, flog them, (giving) eighty stripes, and do not admit any evidence from them ever; and these it is that are the transgressors,

Except those who repent after this and act aright, for surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

And (as for) those who accuse their wives and have no witnesses except themselves, the evidence of one of these (should be taken) four times, bearing Allah to witness that he is most surely of the truthful ones.

O you who believe! do not follow the footsteps of the Shaitan, and whoever follows the footsteps of the Shaitan, then surely he bids the doing of indecency and evil; and were it not for Allah's grace upon you and His mercy, not one of you would have ever been pure, but Allah purifies whom He pleases; and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.

Surely those who accuse chaste believing women, unaware (of the evil), are cursed in this world and the hereafter, and they shall have a grievous chastisement.

Say to the believing men that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts; that is purer for them; surely Allah is Aware of what they do.

And say to the believing women that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts and do not display their ornaments except what appears thereof, and let them wear their coverings over their bosoms, and not display their ornaments except to their husbands or their fathers, or the fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or those whom their right hands possess, or the male servants not having need (of women), or the children who have not attained knowledge of what is hidden of women; and let them not strike their feet so that what they hide of their ornaments may be known; and turn to Allah all of you, O believers! so that you may be successful.

Surely the men who submit and the women who submit, and the believing men and the believing women, and the obeying men and the obeying women, and the truthful men and the truthful women, and the patient men and the patient women and the humble men and the humble women, and the almsgiving men and the almsgiving women, and the fasting men and the fasting women, and the men who guard their private parts and the women who guard, and the men who remember Allah much and the women who remember-- Allah has prepared for them forgiveness and a mighty reward.

peace

[loxbox13]

u guys realised it's not easy to be pure, a true muslim, sex sex sex, is the weakness of mankind, satan loves it , well, i don't believe a one night stand is ok, i like it though , i play a girl trying to act as a gentleman who's cool to get he to bed, it's a whole lie in my personality i pull up,
the problem is the quran system is a man and woman must be rightous as best as they can, so if u like a girl be honest and sincere and see if it's the girl u like and try to love her , if u do than it easy for u to not desobey allah, cause when u love her it's easy from your side to marry her, but one night stand? still loving the life of this world
your research look like looking for an ok for one night stand LOL
like a website who did so much typing to proove that anal sex with the wife is ok , the verse that prohibited it in in front of him, but the love of anal sex made him proove from the koran that it's ok

• Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will; but do some good act for your souls beforehand; and fear God. And know that ye are to meet Him (in the Hereafter), and give (these) good tidings to those who believe.

• your wifes are cloths for you and you're cloths for them

• They ask thee concerning the New Moons. Say they are but signs to mark fixed periods of time in (the affairs of) men, and for pilgrimage. It is no virtue if ye enter your houses from the back; it is virtue if ye fear Allah. Enter houses through the proper doors and fear Allah that ye may prosper

[Bigmo]

What happened to the author of this thread? He vanished?

[youssef4342]

Peace to everyone who said peace...
Hmm what about the verse whether it advocates Celibacy?

[YAMU]

I'm shocked by this news. o If you are doubt, you can better not do it. tempt The servants of God are not in doubt. And what about fatherless children left behind with mother, by sex before marriage? And centuries ago, when there was no pill and condom?

Ahoedoe bilahie mina shetan irazjim >D

In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful. pr

And as for those who are guilty of an indecency from among your women, call to witnesses against them four (witnesses) from among you; then if they bear witness confine them to the houses until death takes them away or Allah opens some way for them.

And as for the two who are guilty of indecency from among you, give them both a punishment; then if they repent and amend, turn aside from them; surely Allah is Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.

And she who guarded her chastity, so We breathed into her of Our inspiration and made her and her son a sign for the nations.

(This is) a chapter which We have revealed and made obligatory and in which We have revealed clear communications that you may be mindful.

(As for) the fornicatress and the fornicator, flog each of them, (giving) a hundred stripes, and let not pity for them detain you in the matter of obedience to Allah, if you believe in Allah and the last day, and let a party of believers witness their chastisement.

The fornicator shall not marry any but a fornicatress or idolatress, and (as for) the fornicatress, none shall marry her but a fornicator or an idolater; and it is forbidden to the believers.

And those who accuse free women then do not bring four witnesses, flog them, (giving) eighty stripes, and do not admit any evidence from them ever; and these it is that are the transgressors,

Except those who repent after this and act aright, for surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

And (as for) those who accuse their wives and have no witnesses except themselves, the evidence of one of these (should be taken) four times, bearing Allah to witness that he is most surely of the truthful ones.

O you who believe! do not follow the footsteps of the Shaitan, and whoever follows the footsteps of the Shaitan, then surely he bids the doing of indecency and evil; and were it not for Allah's grace upon you and His mercy, not one of you would have ever been pure, but Allah purifies whom He pleases; and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.

Surely those who accuse chaste believing women, unaware (of the evil), are cursed in this world and the hereafter, and they shall have a grievous chastisement.

Say to the believing men that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts; that is purer for them; surely Allah is Aware of what they do.

And say to the believing women that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts and do not display their ornaments except what appears thereof, and let them wear their coverings over their bosoms, and not display their ornaments except to their husbands or their fathers, or the fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or those whom their right hands possess, or the male servants not having need (of women), or the children who have not attained knowledge of what is hidden of women; and let them not strike their feet so that what they hide of their ornaments may be known; and turn to Allah all of you, O believers! so that you may be successful.

Surely the men who submit and the women who submit, and the believing men and the believing women, and the obeying men and the obeying women, and the truthful men and the truthful women, and the patient men and the patient women and the humble men and the humble women, and the almsgiving men and the almsgiving women, and the fasting men and the fasting women, and the men who guard their private parts and the women who guard, and the men who remember Allah much and the women who remember-- Allah has prepared for them forgiveness and a mighty reward.

peace

Slam all,

The God's word mustn't create the problem, but it makes peace among people. When reading the God's word we must ponder over all verses, because the path as we have claimed is right for us, but is not right to others. When reading lexicon, there are many scholars giving the meaning, all cited Classical Arabic, so which one is authentic and who guaranteed? We couldn't play with fire if we are doubtful about the meaning. What should we do?

[nimnimak_11]

Peace Amazigh

If you are doubt, you can better not do it.
I think it depends on the ratio of how significant the act is and how much doubt on is in. The more significant the act, the less doubt if outright no doubt should be in someone before committing it. The question is how significant is the act of sex outside of marriage.....

And what about fatherless children left behind with mother, by sex before marriage? And centuries ago, when there was no pill and condom?

If the mother agreed to sleep with the man knowing that most likely she would end up pregnant, then she should have abstained untill she was sure of the circumstances before agreeing to sex with some guy.

Some of the verses you pointed out have been discussed already on the thread. Some of the verses you point out which have not been discussed on this thread as far as i know have not been brought up and personally i don't really see them as significant in the argument so i did not comment on them. I might do like a round up of the most relevant verses at some point but i think that that has already been done. I'l look back at the thread at some point and try to repost it so its easier access.

Good luck with getting to the truth on this matter sister.

[nimnimak_11]

Peace Loxbox

the problem is the quran system is a man and woman must be rightous as best as they can,

I agree

so if u like a girl be honest and sincere and see if it's the girl u like and try to love her , if u do than it easy for u to not desobey allah,

Thats good advice to anyone who is dishonest and unsincere at anytime except in the course of justice (this last part is subjective to some extent)

cause when u love her it's easy from your side to marry her, but one night stand? still loving the life of this world
your research look like looking for an ok for one night stand LOL

I apologise if i've got this wrong but it looks like you are making assumptions about people you don't truely know. Since we don't really know people's weakneses, strengths, futures and basically their overall goodness in the sight of God should we not let God do the judging and we restrain ourselves from any potential negative judging so as to prevent even the slightest amount wronging the person who we are judging in a way that is negative?

like a website who did so much typing to proove that anal sex with the wife is ok , the verse that prohibited it in in front of him, but the love of anal sex made him proove from the koran that it's ok

Maybe it was his love for the truth and not just a lust. Something worth considering. Maybe he got the verse interpreted right whilst all others got it wrong. Maybe he got it wrong but was sincere in finding the truth....There are other possibilities more positive in judging this guy then the idea that he just loved anal sex and so his lust prevented him from seeing the truth.

• They ask thee concerning the New Moons. Say they are but signs to mark fixed periods of time in (the affairs of) men, and for pilgrimage. It is no virtue if ye enter your houses from the back; it is virtue if ye fear Allah. Enter houses through the proper doors and fear Allah that ye may prosper

I don't fully get why you have quoted this verse. Is this the verse which implies not have anal sex?

• Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will; but do some good act for your souls beforehand; and fear God. And know that ye are to meet Him (in the Hereafter), and give (these) good tidings to those who believe.

Though there are no verse numbers to chek, as far as i remember, this verse and i remeber the term wives is a mistranslation. It should say women since the arabic word used is nisa and not zawj.

• your wifes are cloths for you and you're cloths for them

Can't comment withhout cheking the verse. Can't check the verse without the verse number and chapter number or title.

[nimnimak_11]

What happened to the author of this thread? He vanished?

I've been preoccupied with University and life in general and have been dramatically less active on the site. I'm hoping to be more active.

[nimnimak_11]

Peace to everyone who said peace...
Hmm what about the verse whether it advocates Celibacy?

And peace to you also brother

If you could find the verse, i might be able to give an opnion but I honestly don't remember any verse that advocates celibacy.

[nimnimak_11]

Slam all,

The God's word mustn't create the problem, but it makes peace among people. When reading the God's word we must ponder over all verses, because the path as we have claimed is right for us, but is not right to others. When reading lexicon, there are many scholars giving the meaning, all cited Classical Arabic, so which one is authentic and who guaranteed? We couldn't play with fire if we are doubtful about the meaning. What should we do?

In my opnion, put reason first since that is less likely to be mistaken than interpretation. For example here is one case where reason should have priority

434 The men are to support the women with what God has bestowed upon them over one another and for what they spend of their money. The upright females are dutiful; keeping private the personal matters for what God keeps watch over. As for those females from whom you fear desertion, then you shall advise them, and abandon them in the bedchamber, and beat them. If they respond to you, then do not seek a way over them; God is Most High, Great.

Now reason is pretty clear on this. Interpretation would also appear pretty clear to some people. But if someone does beat their wife, they are physically harming someone else (thus more caution must be there before deciding to act on an interpretation) when their reason and hear is against this. Since as a last resort how is beating the wife gonna truely and effectively solve the problem?? But if someone decides not to carru out such an act on the basis of reason having priority and very clear accuracy in this case, then they may later come to discover another potential translation of the verse

434 The men are to support the women with what God has bestowed upon them over one another and for what they spend of their money. The upright females are dutiful; keeping private the personal matters for what God keeps watch over. As for those females from whom you fear desertion, then you shall advise them, and abandon them in the bedchamber, and separate from them. If they respond to you, then do not seek a way over them; God is Most High, Great.

But sometimes reason should have less priority when interpretation is clear and less is at stake. For exmaple 53 Forbidden to you is that which is already dead, and the blood, and the meat of pig, and what was dedicated to other than God, and that which has been strangled, and that which has been beaten to death, and that which has fallen from a height, and that which has been gored, and that which the wild animals have eaten from except what you managed to rescue, and what has been slaughtered on altars, and what you divide by the arrows of chance. This is vile. Today the rejecters have given up from your system, so do not be concerned by them, but be concerned by Me. Today I have perfected your system for you, and completed My blessings upon you, and I have approved submission as the system for you. So, whoever is forced by severe hunger and not seeking sin, then God is Forgiving, Merciful

Personally it makes no sense to me to completely prohibit pig meat when so many other things could have been mentioned. Why single this out? I don't know. But the verse is pretty clear and not much is lost by abstaining from pig meat so given belief in Quran, reason suggests keep off of pig meat.

Typically this is how i'd judge when it comes to the Quran and its upholding.

[Bigmo]

In my opnion, put reason first since that is less likely to be mistaken than interpretation. For example here is one case where reason should have priority

434 The men are to support the women with what God has bestowed upon them over one another and for what they spend of their money. The upright females are dutiful; keeping private the personal matters for what God keeps watch over. As for those females from whom you fear desertion, then you shall advise them, and abandon them in the bedchamber, and beat them. If they respond to you, then do not seek a way over them; God is Most High, Great.

Now reason is pretty clear on this. Interpretation would also appear pretty clear to some people. But if someone does beat their wife, they are physically harming someone else (thus more caution must be there before deciding to act on an interpretation) when their reason and hear is against this. Since as a last resort how is beating the wife gonna truely and effectively solve the problem?? But if someone decides not to carru out such an act on the basis of reason having priority and very clear accuracy in this case, then they may later come to discover another potential translation of the verse

434 The men are to support the women with what God has bestowed upon them over one another and for what they spend of their money. The upright females are dutiful; keeping private the personal matters for what God keeps watch over. As for those females from whom you fear desertion, then you shall advise them, and abandon them in the bedchamber, and separate from them. If they respond to you, then do not seek a way over them; God is Most High, Great.

But sometimes reason should have less priority when interpretation is clear and less is at stake. For exmaple 53 Forbidden to you is that which is already dead, and the blood, and the meat of pig, and what was dedicated to other than God, and that which has been strangled, and that which has been beaten to death, and that which has fallen from a height, and that which has been gored, and that which the wild animals have eaten from except what you managed to rescue, and what has been slaughtered on altars, and what you divide by the arrows of chance. This is vile. Today the rejecters have given up from your system, so do not be concerned by them, but be concerned by Me. Today I have perfected your system for you, and completed My blessings upon you, and I have approved submission as the system for you. So, whoever is forced by severe hunger and not seeking sin, then God is Forgiving, Merciful

Personally it makes no sense to me to completely prohibit pig meat when so many other things could have been mentioned. Why single this out? I don't know. But the verse is pretty clear and not much is lost by abstaining from pig meat so given belief in Quran, reason suggests keep off of pig meat.

Typically this is how i'd judge when it comes to the Quran and its upholding.

Leviticus 111-47
And the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying to them, ?Speak to the people of Israel, saying, These are the living things that you may eat among all the animals that are on the earth. Whatever parts the hoof and is cloven-footed and chews the cud, among the animals, you may eat. Nevertheless, among those that chew the cud or part the hoof, you shall not eat these The camel, because it chews the cud but does not part the hoof, is unclean to you. And the rock badger, because it chews the cud but does not part the hoof, is unclean to you. ...

Leviticus 117-8
And the pig, because it parts the hoof and is cloven-footed but does not chew the cud, is unclean to you. You shall not eat any of their flesh, and you shall not touch their carcasses; they are unclean to you

Deuteronomy 141-29
?You are the sons of the Lord your God. You shall not cut yourselves or make any baldness on your foreheads for the dead. For you are a people holy to the Lord your God, and the Lord has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. ?You shall not eat any abomination. These are the animals you may eat the ox, the sheep, the goat, the deer, the gazelle, the roebuck, the wild goat, the ibex, the antelope, and the mountain sheep. ...

Isaiah 654
Who sit in tombs, and spend the night in secret places; who eat pig's flesh, and broth of tainted meat is in their vessels;

Leviticus 723-24
?Speak to the people of Israel, saying, You shall eat no fat, of ox or sheep or goat. The fat of an animal that dies of itself and the fat of one that is torn by beasts may be put to any other use, but on no account shall you eat it.

Isaiah 6617
?Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go into the gardens, following one in the midst, eating pig's flesh and the abomination and mice, shall come to an end together, declares the Lord.

So it seems it has to do with the type of animal it is. But i am not sure what this cud and chew stuff is.

[MaverickMonotheist]

So it seems it has to do with the type of animal it is. But i am not sure what this cud and chew stuff is.

Peace Bigmo,

It refers to herbivores that are ruminants. They partially digest their food, then they chew it again. Cows, giraffes, etc. do it. The Torah says that a land animal had to meet two conditions to be edible it had to be a ruminant, and it had to have a cloven hoof. A pig has a cloven hoof, but does not ruminate. Interestingly, a camel does not meet these two conditions, but it is acceptable to be eaten according to the Qur'an.

A pig is particularly singled out in the Qur'an, in my opinion, because of what Antiochus Epiphanes did

"In 167 BC the Seleucid ruler Antiochus Epiphanes defiled the Jewish temple by setting up an altar to Zeus over the holy altar of burnt offerings in the Jewish temple in Jerusalem, which was the center of Jewish religious life. Antiochus also sacrificed a pig on the altar in the Temple in Jerusalem."

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samaritan#Antiochus_IV_Epiphanes_and_Hellenization

Peace,
Joel

[Kaiokenred]

Peace Bigmo,

It refers to herbivores that are ruminants. They partially digest their food, then they chew it again. Cows, giraffes, etc. do it. The Torah says that a land animal had to meet two conditions to be edible it had to be a ruminant, and it had to have a cloven hoof. A pig has a cloven hoof, but does not ruminate. Interestingly, a camel does not meet these two conditions, but it is acceptable to be eaten according to the Qur'an.

A pig is particularly singled out in the Qur'an, in my opinion, because of what Antiochus Epiphanes did

"In 167 BC the Seleucid ruler Antiochus Epiphanes defiled the Jewish temple by setting up an altar to Zeus over the holy altar of burnt offerings in the Jewish temple in Jerusalem, which was the center of Jewish religious life. Antiochus also sacrificed a pig on the altar in the Temple in Jerusalem."

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samaritan#Antiochus_IV_Epiphanes_and_Hellenization

Peace,
Joel

I really doubt Allah would prohibit eating pig meat for such reasons.

[Mino-taur]

Salaam everyone.

Have not had enough time to read all the posts so i do not know if the issue has been resolved but i will still reply anyway ^_^

Nimnimak_11, you say instead of chaste, the words abstain from Unlawful sex can be used instead. you also say that sex can be done with two categories of people; The possesion of our right hands (MMA) and our wives.

That means we can only have Unlawful sex with our wives and MMA. However any sex with our wives is Lawful. so this then brings up the point of MMA. A part in 425 of the Quran tells us that if we cannot marry the normal women then we should marry the believing women which our right hands possess.

?And whoever of you cannot afford to marry the independent
female believers, then from those maintained
by your oaths (Ma Malakat Aymanukum)
of the believing young women..." - 425

From this we can conclude, that if we want to have sex with anyone then we MUST marry first.

Please forgive me if you have found my post offensive in anyway, that is not my intention. May Allah have mercy on us and forgive us for our mistakes.

[nimnimak_11]

Salaam everyone.

Have not had enough time to read all the posts so i do not know if the issue has been resolved but i will still reply anyway ^_^

Nimnimak_11, you say instead of chaste, the words abstain from Unlawful sex can be used instead. you also say that sex can be done with two categories of people; The possesion of our right hands (MMA) and our wives.

That means we can only have Unlawful sex with our wives and MMA. However any sex with our wives is Lawful. so this then brings up the point of MMA. A part in 425 of the Quran tells us that if we cannot marry the normal women then we should marry the believing women which our right hands possess.

?And whoever of you cannot afford to marry the independent
female believers, then from those maintained
by your oaths (Ma Malakat Aymanukum)
of the believing young women..." - 425

From this we can conclude, that if we want to have sex with anyone then we MUST marry first.

Please forgive me if you have found my post offensive in anyway, that is not my intention. May Allah have mercy on us and forgive us for our mistakes.

Salam Mino-taur

So if you can have lawful sex with your wife and unlawful sex with your wife, what makes the difference between the two? As in what constitutes lawful sex with wife as opposed to unlawful sex with wife according to the Quran?
Also which part of 425 has resulted in your conclusion that we must first marry before sex?
There was nothing offensive in your post Mino-taur

Peace

[Ex-"Quranist"]

What is the difference between a wife or a girlfriend?

A couple of witnesses and a few paper work?

I think that this argument is not looking at it from a human relationship point of view which is what sex is about. Having sex with a prostitute for example is not the same as having sex with a partner of some sort. A prostitute does not care about your behavior but a wife and girlfriend does. This is because there is an oath between the two of you and this oath is "just like I do not want you to cheat on me, then i also won't cheat on you". It does not make a difference between a wife or girfriend. Wife is a legal arrangement and perhaps a social function, but morally cheating cause harm and pain to somebody else and creates distrust. It does not matter whether she is a wife or girlfriend. Marriage does provide more assurances for a couple that something is serious. But not all marriages are such.

Thats how i look at it. Its about relationship between two people. Now of course if your wife does not mind you sleeping around and you don't mind her sleeping around then i guess you can do as you please. But you ain't going to find too many couple like that. Thats how I read the verses.

But to say that there is a profound difference between two partners who are married and two who are not is not accurate. They are legally different but even then many societies eleminated those two differences easily. Thats because the only difference is a bunch of paper work. No more or less. Its a legal issue and not a moral difference. Cheating and betrayal is cheating and betrayal. Sex is an intimate act between two people and human relationship dictates whats moral and not. Prostitution is a business transaction and in that case the issue is very different. Now if you have a girlfiend or a wife and mess with a protitute then its is also a sin. Cause how would you(a man) feel if your woman had sex with a male escort service behind your back?

As they say, cheating often requires lying and concealing. Whether its with a wife or girlfriend. A bunch of paper work is not going to make it more acceptable.

Do to others how you want them to do to you.

The real question is why won't people get married? Thats the question we should ask since it might tell us about their ultimate intention. From experience, it has to do with the legal framework or perhaps many don't bother. Seperating between the two would only convince a partner that is OK to cheat on any girl as long as she is not my wife or husband. He or she will learn fast it ain't going to make much difference if one of them gets caught. One will call it divorce. The other breaking up. Only difference is a bunch of paper work. That paper work is based on human understanding and does not always reflect morality. Just make the girlfriend also legal. End of story. See how fictitous the difference is.

Many Muslim men go out of their societies and think they can do what they want since many societies have this girlfriend boyfriend thing. They learn quickly it ain't what they thought it was. Cause there ain't no difference. And to prove that here is some professional research

http//paa2005.princeton.edu/download.aspx?submissionId=51389

The message. A cheater is a cheater. And how he behaves prior to a marriage is how he will probably behave if he gets married. A bunch of paper work won't change anything. A person's prior habits before marriage is THE MOST important indicator of his behavior if he evers signs a bunch of paper work thinking now its different. It ain't.

Also this about cheating in schools

Study Once a Cheater, Always a Cheater
By Debra Viadero on October 30, 2009 934 AM | 4 Comments | No TrackBacks
The next time you find yourself thinking, "kids will be kids," think again. Survey results released yesterday by the Josephson Institute on Ethics suggest that kids who cheat in high school are far more likely than non-cheaters to lie to their spouses, bosses, and employees when they grow up.

The results are based on a 2008 survey of nearly 7,000 people in five age groups 17 and under, 18-24, 25-40, 41-50, and over 50. The study found, first of all, that younger generations are far more likely to behave dishonestly than older generations?or at least to admit it to researchers. Among high schoolers, 64% said they had cheated on an exam in 2008, 42% admitted lying to save money, and 30% copped to having stolen something from a store.

The study also found that, regardless of how old they are now, people who cheated in high school were three times more likely to lie to a customer (20% vs. 6%) or inflate an insurance claim (6% vs. 2%) and more than twice as likely to inflate an expense claim (10% vs. 4%) than people who never cheated in high school. The high school cheaters were also twice as likely to lie to or deceive their boss (20% vs. 10%) or lie about their address to get a child into a better school (29% vs. 15%) and one-and-a-half times more likely to lie to spouse or significant other (35% vs. 22%) or cheat on taxes (18% vs. 13%).

If that's not reason enough to boost character education efforts in schools, here's another A growing number of studies are beginning to suggest that some character education programs can improve kids' academic achievement, too.

http//blogs.edweek.org/edweek/inside-school-research/2009/10/study_once_a_cheater_always_a.html

Although this research is too simplistic and could be biased. But it does put some light as why adultery is an ethical and moral issue. But to say thats its so because you signed some paper work and its less so if you didn't sign those paper work is naive. Cheating means you have taken some oath, whether spoken or assumed to be loyal and honest. At least to the best of your ability.

Notice the Quran in marriage emphaises living together and financial obligations. Women who sell theselves cheap are doing so at their own risk. Since men have the financial priveleges in a society and women get the burden of children. Thats what seperates the two. But its a human seperation based on law and orer. Just make the same rule apply to any couple who live together(married or not) and have birth. Women need to make the right decisions and each should carry the burden of risk equally and not always the women should carry the risk. Thats why many societies now force financial obligations on any couple. So what do people now do? They use contraception and birth control. There upon women most of the time come out losing. Its finances that seperates the two(wife versus girlfriend) so just impliment that financial obligation on any couple, whether they signed some paper works or brought two witness from the street or not.

If you have sex than the obligation is there. Because there is an oath between the two of you whether its stated in a church or mosque or not. Just cheat on a girlfriend and see what happens.

This is an excellent post, Bigmo! I agree with this stand point.

[youssef4342]

Peace back to everyone who said peace,
"And they who guard their private parts; Except from their 1) wives or 2) those their right hands possess, for indeed, they will not be blamed - (235,6)

What gives us the right to have intimate relationships with people who are not 1) wives, or 2) those under our possession?

Girlfriends and boyfriends are not wives, and not under our possession.