Iman Mumin Muslim
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peace Buzzor,
My understanding is as follows
A muslim is one who submits/complies to The God.
muslim = monotheist
A mumin is one who has iman/aman (trust/faith/belief), specifically in al quran.
mumin = monotheist + follows al quran
A mumin is a higher level than a muslim.
Check out the following articles
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/mumin.htm
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/thetrust.htm
Wakas
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Peace bro,
"The Nomads said 'We have faith (A'manna).' Say 'You do not have faith; what you should say is, `We have Submitted (Aslamna),' until faith is established in your hearts.' If you obey GOD and His messenger, He will not put any of your works to waste. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful." (4914)
I'm going through a major rethink about the reading and where I stand, quoting verses could you clear up some thing for me?
can you be a 'believer' without having conviction, or 'Iman'?
do only those with 'Iman' make the cut for the hereafter?
The God willing I might come up with some new questions relating to this as the article threw up some questions for me
I really apreciate your help )
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peace Buzzor,
can you be a 'believer' without having conviction, or 'Iman'?
You will have to clarify what you mean by 'believer', and conviction/iman in what specifically?
do only those with 'Iman' make the cut for the hereafter?
Not as far as I'm aware. Being a muslim* is the entry-level, if I can put it in such a manner.
*remembering it is primarily a descriptive term for a mindset.
The God willing I might come up with some new questions relating to this as the article threw up some questions for me
I hope you read both articles wink
Wakas
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Peace to all,
Muslim is the highest position that man can reach. Being a Mumin is the way to achieve the feat! Iman is the basic quality required to be a mumin
Muslim is one who has salamath granted by Allah for one having satisfied HIM with his Iman i.e., He who stands his ground as a mumin during the testing time from Allah, he is elevated as a MUSLIM
Iman = Having Belief " Allah is sufficient as provider and protector ". This means either for protection or provision, one shall not associate with Allah any thing or person such as his money ; his knowledge ; his job ; his people. So Allah put him to test in all these and if he stands firm in the belief in Allah, he is adjudged a MUMIN, by Allah.
002.155
Be sure we shall test you with something of fear and hunger, some loss in goods or lives or the fruits, but give glad tidings to those who patiently persevere,002.156
Who say, when afflicted with calamity "To Allah We belong, and to Him is our return"002.157
YUSUFALI They are those on whom blessings from Allah, and Mercy, and they are the ones that receive guidanceA mumin is always rewarded very fairly for his show of faith many a guidance, many revelations from Allah as wahi that leads him in the siratun mutaqeem, in which path he receives the Signs of Allah further that strengthens his iman constantly. He is at this point being raised as Muslim.
A muslim is one who is strongest in Iman, way higher than a mumin. The reward is of such High in degree that he has Allah's salamath in His heart, during any testing situation. Even the prophets like Ibrahim and Yusuf, have made this prayer " O Allah, if ever you take up our souls, take it not but when we are muslims!"
12101 "Make me die a muslim and join me with the good. "
See here what the prophets Ibrahim and Ismail pray to their Lord even as they are Nabis themselves! You must know the status called A Muslim is the highest position one can achieve!
2128 "Our Lord! make of us Muslims,
drfazl
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Peace be upon you Buzzzor,
MU+SLIM, is one who has "islam" in them. In English, SUBMITTER(man of peace), is one who has "submision/peace" in them.
LIKEWISE,
MU+MIN is one who as "amana/imana" in them. In English, Faithful is one who has "faith" in them.
(4914) ...Say 'You do not have faith; what you should say is, `We have Submitted (Aslamna),' until faith is established in your hearts.'
I am so glad you reminded us all with this verse, it is just what I have been looking for.
Final note,
MU+Hammad is.... don't be sacred of it, thats what the wicked hope.
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Peace all,
thanks for al of your replies, it goes to show what a valuable place of free thought this is.
I'll try and make a cut at some questions
Quote
can you be a 'believer' without having conviction, or 'Iman'?
You will have to clarify what you mean by 'believer', and conviction/iman in what specifically?
A believer as one who falls under the jurisdiction ( I think is the right word) of those verses that to the best of my knowledge start
'o you who believe' usually pertaining to salat etc, and I was under the impression that only those with 'Iman' in general, or those who are 'muminoon' (sp) qualify to uphold them. thats what I gathered from the Mumin v. Submitters article.I'm lost a bit here, so I'd appreciate any clearup! D
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Peace be upon you,
The verses you speak of that start "O you who..." should be translated as "O you who have faith", not "believe".
This should clear up the confusion. That word "believe" does not belong there just like the word "worship" does not belong in this reading either.
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peace drfazl,
Muslim is the highest position that man can reach. Being a Mumin is the way to achieve the feat!
How do you reconcile this view with 4914 which states the opposite?
The reason, imho, messengers/prophets ask to not die except as 'muslim' etc. is due to their humility. If this indeed is the 'entry-level', what more could one who is humble ask for?
Wakas
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wakas
here is 4914
The dwellers of the desert say We believe. Say You do not believe but say, We submit; and faith has not yet entered into your hearts; and if you obey Allah and His Messenger, He will not diminish aught of your deeds; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
The dwellers of the desert say
This is an addressing to all those on earth who have no wisdom granted in them for, they have never cared to use their capacity to get into the thinking on what Allah says about iman or what the messenger explains. Their heart is like a desert having no faith for life in it.
They say we believe
It is impossible for one to believe in anything unless it becomes his self and the subject concerned gets merged with his nature. Quran is only for he, who dwells in the thought and not to him who dwells on the land like cattles. All such can say is " We have submitted blindly! "
Let us see here as to what Allah says with regard to those who say, " We have iman! "
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Do men think that they will be left alone on saying, "We believe", and that they will not be tested?Thus Iman or the status of mumin, shall be tested and tested and tested again and again until you make yourself sure of your iman that Allah is sufficient as provider, protector and helper and that you will not commit shirk in any manner that you will not associate any matter or thing, such as, money or your job or your people or your community for your survival. The iman of one shall be as follows
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O ye who believe! take not for protectors your fathers and your brothers if they love infidelity above Faith if any of you do so, they do wrong.And Allah follows it up with the following 8 shirks that we are committing, yet we say "we are mumins!" a grave life we are leading cheating our own selves which is of concern to Allah; Here comes His final warning, strong!
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Say If your 1) fathers and 2) your sons and 3)your brethren and 4) your mates and 5) your kinsfolk and 6) property which you have acquired, and 7) the slackness of trade which you fear and 8 ) dwellings which you like, are dearer to you than Allah and His Messenger and striving (without associating all these ) in His way, then wait till Allah brings about His command and Allah does not guide the transgressing people.Mind and ponder now ! If we are people transgressing ? or, mumins ?
Say atleast now " O Allah Make is Mumins! "Please understand we have nothing of the above so as to say " we are mumins! " 49 14 is an outright application on us, the present population and for all the people to come till the Qiamah. Allah keeps calling us in HIS BOOK as, "O Mumins! " for we keep transgressing calling ourselves MUMINS! whereas actually we are not! If you are mumins Allah says follow any of my ayat! Allah exclaims before beginning most of His ayats with an unapproved expression from HIM " O Mumins !" so that it instills fear in us when we ponder if we really are mumins. You will not say it then, for you know it is for Allah to approve of you.
Thus the status of mumin is the starting point before elevation as muslims by Allah " O Allah let us not die but as muslims (confirmed) not as mumins ( doubtful )! Make us die as Muslims !"
drfazl
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Peace,
peace drfazl,
Thanks for answering, but I still think your view is incompatible with 4914.
Wakas
Is it a reply Mr. wakas? Just dismissing it in one sentence as " not compatible "? Instead you could have ignored the post itself for others to decide and say what they think and ponder and feel in their hearts. Where is your point of discussion material ? You believe only in whatever you have already conceived in your mind; no allowance for debates against it?
Please enter into discussion instead of dismissal. that is no reply at all. " Incompatible !"
drfazl
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Peace be upon you Doc,
I agree with Wakas. Please look again, one must first SUBMIT to the Higher Authority, then when one starts to WITNESS the unchanging nature of LAWS, they can start to have faith, you cannot just get faith without witnessing the unchanging laws, otherwise it is blind faith, just like the "following of your fathers".
once you have FAITH, then when the God tells you to do soemthing, you will not hesitate because you understand that His instructions are based on the LAWS. Look at all the verses that start "O you who have faith..." and see what comes after that statement. It is eye opening.
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peace drfazl,
Please enter into discussion instead of dismissal. that is no reply at all. " Incompatible !"
I was going to explain further but I felt I would have just been repeating what the sign says...
The Nomads said "We believe" Say "You have not believed, but you should say 'We are compliant (aslamna)', for belief (eemanu) has not yet entered into your hearts" If you obey God and His messenger, He will not put any of your works to waste. God is Forgiver, Merciful.
This to me, is a clear sequence. Being compliant comes before attaining AMN.
Wakas
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Bro. idol,
Peace be upon you Doc,
I agree with Wakas. Please look again, one must first SUBMIT to the Higher Authority, then when one starts to WITNESS the unchanging nature of LAWS. Look at all the verses that start "O you who have faith..." and see what comes after that statement. It is eye opening.
I need to have certain clarification from you with regard to the words
SUBMIT; HIGHER; AUTHORITY; LAWS; NATURE of Laws; UNCHANGINGPlease define each of the above. I will appreciate it if the definitions are of spiritual ascent rather than upon the declining down to earth worldly examples, carrying UNLAWFUL literal meanings, for we have to SUBMIT only to the LAW OF UNSEEN, believing in the LAW OF WISDOM which can be seen through the LAW OF VISION alone, when the veil before our eyes shall be lifted by the LAW OF ALLAH, the Higest Authority.
Allah says He shall change even our identity as Man to monkeys and pigs not confirming to the 'unchanging' law of nature; He can make the day or night still, lasting forever, which is against the 'unchanging' Natural Law; He shall icrease or decrease you life span; He can bring dead alive and make him speak He can make us also do the same by HIS LAW; He can change our worst crimes turn out to be Good; He can cleave the sea and make dry path; He can make the shadows stand still, an antagonistic to the unchanging Natural Law; if ever the water is sucked deep into the ground HE shall bringforth the water spring from the surface of the earth; He can create OASIS in the deserts! If you area a believer Believe in this!
Such is the unfounded Laws, ever changing according to His WILL LAWS OF CHANGING, UNKNOWN , UNHEARD, UNSEEN, UNBELIEVABLE. Believe in the Almighty! Now go for the Book! There in it, is the SIGN, the changing Law - Al Quran - for those who believe!
drfazl
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Peace be upon you Dr,
I
need to have certain clarification from you with regard to the words
SUBMIT; HIGHER; AUTHORITY; LAWS; NATURE of Laws; UNCHANGINGPlease define each of the above. I will appreciate it if the definitions are of spiritual ascent rather than upon the declining down to earth worldly examples, carrying UNLAWFUL literal meanings
Submit- to allow the malaika(righteous thougts that come down with the God's life force/ruh) to guide your life, and give up the shayteen(rejecting thoughts) that lead you away from the God.
Higher- is symbolic like the top of a mountain, because the journey is steep and requires work, like climibg a mountain. Higher is same as being near to the God.
Authority- the ONe who is in control.
Laws- That which we are bound to, Cause and effect.
Nature of laws- unchanging while we are here in this phase of exsistence, The God describes it as "Mercy", for if we did not have LAWS, we would always be in a state of guessing, one day we can make ice in a freezer, but he next day we would have to try to figure out which law to apply to water to make it ice. So the God's MERCy, which He decreed upon Himself is the LAW.
Unchanging- does not change, sticks NEVER turn into snakes, literally.
, for we have to SUBMIT only to the LAW OF UNSEEN, believing in the LAW OF WISDOM which can be seen through the LAW OF VISION alone, when the veil before our eyes shall be lifted by the LAW OF ALLAH, the Higest Authority.
I agree.
Allah says He shall change even our identity as Man to monkeys and pigs not confirming to the 'unchanging' law of nature
No one has ever literally been changed into a monkey or a pig, but the character of man is subject to the UNCHANBGING LAW that you rea what you sow, if you sow a PIG LIKE mentality, you will reap the life of a PIG. There is NO CHANGE in that.
He can make the day or night still, lasting forever, which is against the 'unchanging' Natural Law
Yes the God CAN do this, but HE DOES NOT do this, because He has decreed upon Himdelf MERCY, which is te unchanging LAW, so that we can find our way on a solid foundation.
He shall icrease or decrease you life span
What he CAN do, and what HE DOES do, are two different things.
He can bring dead alive and make him speak He can make us also do the same by HIS LAW; He can change our worst crimes turn out to be Good; He can cleave the sea and make dry path; He can make the shadows stand still, an antagonistic to the unchanging Natural Law; if ever the water is sucked deep into the ground HE shall bringforth the water spring from the surface of the earth; He can create OASIS in the deserts! If you area a believer Believe in this!
What He CAN do and DOES do are different. No one is denying thePOWER of the Most High, but He has decreed MERCY, so we live by UNCHANGING LAWS. You don't really believe that a man split the sea LITERALLY, do you?
Such is the unfounded Laws, ever changing according to His WILL LAWS OF CHANGING, UNKNOWN , UNHEARD, UNSEEN, UNBELIEVABLE. Believe in the Almighty! Now go for the Book! There in it, is the SIGN, the changing Law - Al Quran - for those who believe!
Show me ONE LAW that changes.
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Peace all,
Ok, I may have finally pinned down the part of the believers v submitters article that was confusing me.
at the first half or thereabouts, the article talks about submitters, and the differences between these and the faithful.
it uses this verse to back up the definition of submitters
"Who can utter better words than one who 1) invites to GOD, 2) works righteousness, and says, 3) "I am one of the Submitters"?" (4133)
the article I believe then says
The Faithful = The Righteous
if the faithful are righteous, then how can a submitter be righteous too, if s/he is only a submitter?
have I missed something? ?
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Peace,
When I looked at multiple English dictionaries I found this in the unabridged 1913 Webster
Faith
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Belief; the assent of the mind to the truth of what is
declared by another, resting solely and implicitly on his
authority and veracity; reliance on testimony. -
The assent of the mind to the statement or proposition of
another, on the ground of the manifest truth of what he
utters; firm and earnest belief, on probable evidence of
any kind, especially in regard to important moral truth.
Sadly more contemporary dictionaries lean this way which muddles the definition
loyalty or allegiance to a cause or a person; "keep the faith"; "they broke faith with their investors"
complete confidence in a person or plan etc; "he cherished the faith of a good woman"; "the doctor-patient relationship is based on trust"
a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny; "he lost his faith but not his morality"
institution to express belief in a divine power; "he was raised in the Baptist religion"; "a member of his own faith contradicted him" -
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peace Buzzor,
The part where it states "The Faithful = The Righteous" is not exactly based on solid evidence, at least, not in the surrounding context where that phrase appears.
Furthermore, I think its questionable whether 'mutaqeen' = righteous. I personally have not studied the term, but I know many people here regard the term differently (e.g. God-fearing / forethoughtful / guarding).I re-read the article, and I think its an important one to grasp.
2853 further supports my understanding as discussed on this thread.Wakas
