7:31: Do not eat excesively? or do not waste food?
-
The God doesn't like sinners. To transgress is a sin. To eat transgressively or excessively is a sin. But my point is that it only becomes a case of transgression when your reason submits to your desire rather than it be the other way round. If you reason that there is nothing wrong with eating x amount of food, then there is no transgression IMO. Unless your reasoning was corrupted by desire or in other words in submission to your desire.
That is if you view the word as meaning "excessive", which I don't and honestly doesn't make sense if it is as such. Also lets keep the words "excessive" and "Transgression" seperate as transgression refers to breaking Gods rules while excessive refers to just do something a lot which can include stuff like sleep or watching a movie. As for what you wrote, it is did mean "excessive", if its then up to what a person thinks, then to me excessive is when one is about to put another bit of food in their mouth that they will puke level. Yet that wouldn't make sense with drinks as I never ever can have enough to drink. I'm pretty much always drinking something whether its water, coke or coffee. Thus why I believe waste fits it better as you can't really over do on drinking. Or even Transgression (as in breaking Gods rules) fit better as you cannot eat or drink the forbidden things.
If thats how you reason it, then IMO there isn't a transgression going on. So long as you are aware and are enjoying the provision without losing the abillity to stop when needed.
In my case i remember saying to myself i'l eat one fifth of this ben and jerry ice cream tub and no more. But I ate half the tub. Afterwards there was a slight (very slight) feeling of disappointment in myself (and i can imagine a slight bit of dislike from the God towards me as i think it would have been better in the sight of God if i was in controle. But this was nothing major as the transgression was minor).
If we are going by "excess" I wouldn't say that was excess at all. You were capable of eating that and you did. No sin there IMO and again I believe waste fits better and thus if you threw it away at 50% I believe it would have been a sin rather.
But then i thought, i'l make it up at the gym. The lack of will here means a greater will used at the gym where i achieve more than the usual amount. Thus no transgression or it gets weighed out by my gym session. But having said that, if i had decided before hand to eat the whole tub thinking i don't really care about health issues in this instance (reaching this conlusion with good reasoning) then i would not think that i would have trangressed. Its only because that my desire took over from my reason that i considered my act as transgressive.
I apply the same sort of approach with drinks also.
Can't disagree with that.
But then that would be excess against yourself cause you gained weight and that's something world and not related to religious matters. It doesn't matter how much or how little you decide to eat, it all comes down to the limit of what God considers as "too much" I would think and of course I would think that is a burden upon itself and makes little sense as the body will already tell you if you ate enough and to not eat more or it will puke. Thus why waste makes sense.
Might have misunderstood the above but i really don't think that the only case of transgression is when someone prohibits that which is lawful. I think its one case of transgression but I also think there are many other cases that can count as transgression.
Thanks )
Well no doubt there are many different cases of transgression as the Quran has stated what is forbidden and what isn't. As for those tafsirs that talk about "Transgression" as the word, the way I think they are stating it is that its means to "trangress by eating and drinking the unlawful or transgress by not allowing yourself to eat or drink" Of course the second part is a little odd but the first part makes sense.
Anyways you bring up a lot of good points. I'm really liking this D
-
Why are you saying that i am wrong? Yes my views would be contrasting to yours, but please do not tell me that i am wrong.
You are looking at Translations? There would be different understandings.
In 6141 and in 731 it is either talking about eating or eating and drinking.
Some might Translate it as "waste", however, from the context, "wasting" would not point to anything back.
Eat and drink, but don't waste?..................waste what?The uses of the root S-R-F conveys mostly the meaning of Excessivness/Crossing the lines/Trans-gressing/beyond limits.
And please do not try to come up with counter arguments about eating popcorn and lolipops and drinking coffee. This might just be pitiful. overeating would be from excessiveness.
If you eat and eat and eat, because you are offered free food, then that might just be excessiveness...
would like to get abnormal blood sugar levels and even diabetes, hypertension from too much sodium consumption, blocked arteries from fat setteling in from eating too much fats...
Moderation would be key here, and your personal need.
Whether you think it is expressiveness or wasting, overeating is a bad thing, it may eventually lead to diseases..........
If overeating lead to bad things then obviously it might just be a sin, because it is sin which may be punished for, and not good deeds!"...Don't throw yourself into destruction..." (2195)
Overeating leads to diseases = destruction
Please understand this, overeating is not good for your health. Whether its a commandment or not. Take care of your body that God Almighty gave you.
-
Why are you saying that i am wrong? Yes my views would be contrasting to yours, but please do not tell me that i am wrong.
Sorry, I didn't mean about our ideas of what it means cause there is no problem there and this is a nice open debate, but I mean in taking that excess or transgression are the only important translations to that word when clearly as I showed many translators also find "waste" quite important too including the free-minds Quran in 6141.
You are looking at Translations? There would be different understandings.
In 6141 and in 731 it is either talking about eating or eating and drinking.
Some might Translate it as "waste", however, from the context, "wasting" would not point to anything back.
Eat and drink, but don't waste?..................waste what?So by your logic you are saying that if 731 translates to "excess" it automatically refers to eating and drinking yet if it translates to "waste" it doesn't!? O_o
It's quite crystal clear what it means when one puts waste after eating and drinking. For example My mother puts a whole cake in front of me and says "eat, but don't waste" Which I would take as not throwing it away. It's quite clear, don't try to twist it to make no sense what it would mean by not using the word waste. 6141 was translated on this site to waste and everyone understood it no complaints, so why not 731?
The context is the main reason why we even bring up the words "excess" or "waste" as that's all you can really do with food and drinks, otherwise we would go straight ahead and translate that word to "transgression" as in breaking Gods rules as it has been translated to just that everywhere else in the Quran.
The uses of the root S-R-F conveys mostly the meaning of Excessivness/Crossing the lines/Trans-gressing/beyond limits.
But clearly it has a secondary meaning as used by SO many that is pretty freakin important too. And remember the word "transgression" can refer to breaking Gods Rules as used in many other verses as I pointed out in my last reply to you so if not waste, it can also mean that as these two Tafsirs have said in their input
"That is, "Allah does not like those people who transgress the limits imposed by Him by making the lawful as unlawful. That is why He does not approve of those who put on a disheveled appearance or starve themselves or deprive themselves of the lawful and pure flings under the foolish belief that they are pleasing their Allah thereby. He does not demand this as essential for His worship; nay, He is pleased if one wears a decent dress and makes use of the pure things provided by Him. According to His Law, the only thing that is sinful is to transgress His limits by making the lawful unlawful or the unlawful lawful."
http//www.englishtafsir.com/Quran/7/index.html#sdfootnote21sym
AND
(O Children of Adam! Look to your adornment) wear your clothes (at every place of worship) at the time of every prayer and upon circumambulation of the Ka'bah, (and eat) of meat and fat (and drink) of milk, (but be not prodigal) do not declare unlawful wholesome foods, meat and fat. (Lo! He loveth not the prodigals) those who transgress by leaving the lawful and going after the unlawful..
http//www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=7&tAyahNo=31&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2
*Note the translation of the second one has led the brackets which are the Quranic verse to be translated incorrectly according to the tafsir which clearly has taken it as meaning "transgression"
These state that it means to not transgress as in not to eat the forbidden foods and drinks like alcohol and pork.
And yes I just copypasted that from the last reply.
And please do not try to come up with counter arguments about eating popcorn and lolipops and drinking coffee. This might just be pitiful. overeating would be from excessiveness.
And why not? It's a good example of why using the word "excessive" is just silly. You stated that excessive would be beyond you needs. One eats cookies and other snacks when they already are full, thus by that logic you can't eat those. Hell, people drink coffee just to feel good and not out of thirst... I drink water or coke when thirsty and coffee when I just wanna relax and enjoy ^_^ (the idea of coffee just made me quite happy for some reason XD) Drinking is a major reason why excessive makes no sense as you really can't get excessive with drinking. I can keep drinking and drinking and never feel like i've had enough. It's quite a burden on us otherwise to not be able to enjoy the provisions of God just because we can move and aren't starving. One can waste drinks though by throwing them in the trash when still half full or transgress as in breaking Gods rules by drinking alcohol.
If you eat and eat and eat, because you are offered free food, then that might just be excessiveness...
would like to get abnormal blood sugar levels and even diabetes, hypertension from too much sodium consumption, blocked arteries from fat setteling in from eating too much fats...
Moderation would be key here, and your personal need.
Whether you think it is expressiveness or wasting, overeating is a bad thing, it may eventually lead to diseases..........
If overeating lead to bad things then obviously it might just be a sin, because it is sin which may be punished for, and not good deeds!"...Don't throw yourself into destruction..." (2195)
Overeating leads to diseases = destruction
Please understand this, overeating is not good for your health. Whether its a commandment or not. Take care of your body that God Almighty gave you.
ooh so you finally brought in the health issue. Alright let me state something first off. I'm pretty well off health wise, but yet once in a while i'll say, "I'M GONNA GO TO BUFFET AND EAT UNTIL I CAN'T EAT ANOTHER BITE!" And thats all I eat that day. Yet my weight doesn't alter nor does anything else. Some times one can eat once in a while alot. Its not good if you do it everyday. Oh and as for that verse about throwing yourself into destruction, that refers to the fact that one who is already on the path. For example if you doctor tells you to stop eating this thing and you continue to do so, then you are sinning according to that verse as you are on a path to destruction. Or lets bring in other matters. If it isn't killing you, then there is no harm. If its looking like its gonna be dangerous then stop. I clearly am careful of that and haven't let something like that happen.
Regardless this verse has nothing to do with health. People overeat from time to time and are fine. Heck its sometimes rude to not overeat when a friend or family makes a feast for you and you are full but to make them happy you eat it down so you won't appear rude.
I agree by all means that overeating all the time is bad but its only turns into a sin once health problems kick in. We shouldn't say someone who overeats without the health problems a sinner until they get the health problems. I've been over eating once in a while for much of my life. Of course that's only over eating. Over drinking doesn't lead to problems unless done consequtively like getting waterlogged by drinking 8 glasses of water non-stop, but no one really does that and they take their time little by little to drink.
Thus why "excess" doesn't make sense to be the word to use with 731 as over eating time to time is harmless, is rude to some people who made you a feast, snacking is something we all do from a simple cookie to a cake when we are full cause we just love it, we may be full and we have food on our plates that we don't wanna throw out so we force it down for just that, and drinking really cannot be overdone considering we are 70-80% water and thus we if we aren't thirsty we still WANT to drink including coffee with a friend and such.
Waste therefore makes more sense and Transgression as in breaking Gods rules also make sense but not "excess" for it would be way too huge a burden on us if that was the case.
**Also do you think you can look in the "showing off" topic I have up as I have a follow up question there i'd like you to see ) thanks ^_^
-
Wasting food and overeating might be both bad things.
God cites to avoid sins that are obvious, as well as sins which might not be so obvious.Overeating and overdrinking are not good things.
you can actually die from overdrinking water.
with food, moderation would be key.Coffee and cookies, and moderate snacking might be ok, God is the most merciful being, and so, your citation of snacking and coffee would sound somewhat Pitiful to me, God readily would be forgiving. you may also ask for forgiveness.
your health might be in good stance for now, but misusing it would not be so wise.
-
But then that would be excess against yourself cause you gained weight and that's something world and not related to religious matters. It doesn't matter how much or how little you decide to eat, it all comes down to the limit of what God considers as "too much" I would think and of course I would think that is a burden upon itself and makes little sense as the body will already tell you if you ate enough and to not eat more or it will puke. Thus why waste makes sense.
My understanding is that the limit that the God consider as "too much" is determined by the physiology someone has been given. For a diabetic the God has set different limits to someone with no health issues. I don't see one external objective limit set by the God for everyone as realistic to be honest.
I would say the same thing about waste. There is no external objective limit determined. Just a proportion or ratio. A ratio or proportion to the quantity of people in the world and the quantity of resources available. The greater the number of people and the lesser the resources available, the less room there is for waste and the more sinful it is. By this I mean that to waste a small amount would be too much. But if the situation was such that there was not many people and much resource, then there is more acceptability for waste. More could be wasted befored being deemed as sinful IMO.
In conclusion my view is that it's not a sin unless you or others can reasonablly view your character as wasteful or in the case that we were to take the meaning as excess then indulgence.
-
Wasting food and overeating might be both bad things.
God cites to avoid sins that are obvious, as well as sins which might not be so obvious.That's your opinion on it being a so called obvious sin, I do not see a problem is over-eating as long as it doesn't lead to your doom. So I over it once in a while, I am not killing myself by doing that as I stay moderate otherwise.
But you still haven't proven that excess eating is a sin. So far i've shown waste to make sense, transgression (as in breaking Gods rules) to make sense but excess eating is a no unless it eats up hitting the part that starts hurting you.
Overeating and overdrinking are not good things.
you can actually die from overdrinking water.
with food, moderation would be key.Overeating is no good if it leads you to health problems.
No doubt there that too much water can kill you, as I mentioned that 8 cup example done consecutively. But that is only consecutively, and that in the end is like drinking poison and thus where that verse about destroying yourself kicks in. I drink beverages at all times throughout the day without ever feeling i've had enough. Never consecutively but I drink coffee when i'm not thirsty either. Thus I would be overdrinking as I didn't need any? Thus why this logic doesn't work with 731 and the verse about "destroying yourself" kicks in once it starts hurting me.
Coffee and cookies, and moderate snacking might be ok, God is the most merciful being, and so, your citation of snacking and coffee would sound somewhat Pitiful to me, God readily would be forgiving. you may also ask for forgiveness.
your health might be in good stance for now, but misusing it would not be so wise.
You only say "might" be okay and you are saying that we should seek forgiveness because we crave a little bit of coffee and cookies? That sounds quite silly. God said he won't burden us like this by checking to see if we have an appetite or not and to be scared to even touch a cookie just cause we aren't hungry. For one as a film maker, coffee is HIGHLY needed to stay strong and working and overeating is also somewhat needed too in order to have the energy to work. As long as one doesn't let it destroy them. We shouldn't go around labeling things as haram without full concrete proof as the Quran has stated and I still see no real evidence here. Waste and Transgression (The type where you break Gods rules) make the most sense for 731 and 6141.
-
My understanding is that the limit that the God consider as "too much" is determined by the physiology someone has been given. For a diabetic the God has set different limits to someone with no health issues. I don't see one external objective limit set by the God for everyone as realistic to be honest.
I would say the same thing about waste. There is no external objective limit determined. Just a proportion or ratio. A ratio or proportion to the quantity of people in the world and the quantity of resources available. The greater the number of people and the lesser the resources available, the less room there is for waste and the more sinful it is. By this I mean that to waste a small amount would be too much. But if the situation was such that there was not many people and much resource, then there is more acceptability for waste. More could be wasted befored being deemed as sinful IMO.
In conclusion my view is that it's not a sin unless you or others can reasonablly view your character as wasteful or in the case that we were to take the meaning as excess then indulgence.
I like your view ) Well considering we are in first world nations (at least I think most of us are here in such nations) food is quite plentiful and even the poor are fed thanks to soup kitchens, so the demand for food isn't high at all here.
Waste wise, it is somewhat an issue but nothing that hurts us so far but still not good to ever throw away 90% of your meal in the trash. I understand if crumbs are left, or unused sauce (ketchup packets for example) or a small bit of lettuce.
Course as you said God has given us the ability to know when too much is too much and thus in the end works quite well with the word "waste" as it is too much when it leads to throwing up and thus that throw up is waste since food spilled on the floor or toilet without any used for your body. As you said, diabetics have their own special limits too. )
What do you think?
-
I like your view ) Well considering we are in first world nations (at least I think most of us are here in such nations) food is quite plentiful and even the poor are fed thanks to soup kitchens, so the demand for food isn't high at all here.
Waste wise, it is somewhat an issue but nothing that hurts us so far but still not good to ever throw away 90% of your meal in the trash. I understand if crumbs are left, or unused sauce (ketchup packets for example) or a small bit of lettuce.
Course as you said God has given us the ability to know when too much is too much and thus in the end works quite well with the word "waste" as it is too much when it leads to throwing up and thus that throw up is waste since food spilled on the floor or toilet without any used for your body. As you said, diabetics have their own special limits too. )
What do you think?
About what?
It looks like your opting for the translation as being waste. I prefer to take it as transgression because in other places of the Quran it's often used to semantically mean transgression. That doesn't necessarily mean that it cannot mean waste but it decreases the probability. But what makes me more certain is that the word transgress encompasses being wasteful as that is a kind of transgression. But the concept of wasteful does not cover all the possible meanings and things the concept of transgress covers. So to me it makes more sense to take the word as transgress. Thus if someone eats too much or wastes too much (which is highly context dependent and to a good extent subjective) then they have transgressed.Is that what you meant by what i think?
Now what do you think?
) -
About what?
It looks like your opting for the translation as being waste. I prefer to take it as transgression because in other places of the Quran it's often used to semantically mean transgression. That doesn't necessarily mean that it cannot mean waste but it decreases the probability. But what makes me more certain is that the word transgress encompasses being wasteful as that is a kind of transgression. But the concept of wasteful does not cover all the possible meanings and things the concept of transgress covers. So to me it makes more sense to take the word as transgress. Thus if someone eats too much or wastes too much (which is highly context dependent and to a good extent subjective) then they have transgressed.Is that what you meant by what i think?
Now what do you think?
)Realize that the word transgression used elsewhere in the Quran refers to "breaking Gods rules" as in if we were to use it with this, it would rather look to refer to not breaking the rules of eating and drinking which refer to not eating stuff like pork and alcohol and such.
Regardless the way you stated trangress though, that would only possibly mean eating too much and doesn't cover waste considering the context is talking about eating and thus if we were to use that meaning of trangress, it would refer only to eating too much as waste isn't mentioned there at all. Thus It cannot mean both.
Trangression in that breaking Gods rules makes quite a bit of sense though and if we go by that, something like waste and excess eating come under our judgement of how much and when we can and cannot do it i'd think as we have verses that refer to us not corrupting the earth (waste does just that) and one about hurting our bodies (which excess eating does), cause afterall if we do it once in a while, we aren't really hurting ourselves nor the earth but if we did it all the time, then we would be.
-
Realize that the word transgression used elsewhere in the Quran refers to "breaking Gods rules" as in if we were to use it with this, it would rather look to refer to not breaking the rules of eating and drinking which refer to not eating stuff like pork and alcohol and such.
I'm pretty sure that I agree on the idea that transgression is a reference to breaking God's rules. I agree with pork (not so much with alcohol) being prohibited and thus a transgression if we consume it unjustifiably. But I also believe that each individual has a nature and that with that nature comes a rough appropriate limit to how much and what they should eat and drink. This nature is given by God. Thus to transgress that limit is to go against the limits set by the God.
Regardless the way you stated trangress though, that would only possibly mean eating too much and doesn't cover waste considering the context is talking about eating and thus if we were to use that meaning of trangress, it would refer only to eating too much as waste isn't mentioned there at all. Thus It cannot mean both.
Ok I agree but to waste food or anything is still a transgression. So we whilst we might say that its not covered by this verse, we can still reasonably say that for someone who relflects on the nature of what could potentailly be understood as a transgression, the wasting of food or anything (again depending on the quantity and quality of resource available and needed and how careless or carefule someone is regarding the resource) is a transgression and thus the breaking of God's limit.
Trangression in that breaking Gods rules makes quite a bit of sense though and if we go by that, something like waste and excess eating come under our judgement of how much and when we can and cannot do it i'd think as we have verses that refer to us not corrupting the earth (waste does just that) and one about hurting our bodies (which excess eating does), cause afterall if we do it once in a while, we aren't really hurting ourselves nor the earth but if we did it all the time, then we would be.
I agree.
-
I'm pretty sure that I agree on the idea that transgression is a reference to breaking God's rules. I agree with pork (not so much with alcohol) being prohibited and thus a transgression if we consume it unjustifiably. But I also believe that each individual has a nature and that with that nature comes a rough appropriate limit to how much and what they should eat and drink. This nature is given by God. Thus to transgress that limit is to go against the limits set by the God.
Why don't you believe alcohol is forbidden? There are verses that forbid the consumption of intoxicants.
Regardless, yeah I agrees that our bodies tell us when we've had enough, which I like to call getting to the level of "puking" which we should avoid. But Transgression doesn't mean to go beyond a limit in the sense of the word of "breaking Gods rules" as we transgress a lot of things in life from wasting time, to sleeping alot, walking, exercise, playing etc... but none clearly have been described as transgressions in that sense of the word, so if we are to label 731 with the word "Transgression" under the sense of the word that it means breaking Gods rules, then it would apply to what we eat and drink but don't eat or drink the forbidden stuff.
Ok I agree but to waste food or anything is still a transgression. So we whilst we might say that its not covered by this verse, we can still reasonably say that for someone who relflects on the nature of what could potentailly be understood as a transgression, the wasting of food or anything (again depending on the quantity and quality of resource available and needed and how careless or carefule someone is regarding the resource) is a transgression and thus the breaking of God's limit.
Realize we cannot take what can "potentially" be as fact until we are 100% sure, but understand that if there were two different ideas which are "wasting" and "over eating" they would have been listed as seperate ideas and not throw a word that is used for going over the limits to cover both as that can get pretty vague. Thus if we we were to go with "transgression" as in overeating/drinking then we can't do waste as waste is a seperate meaning for that same word but not the same meaning as that. If we were to go with waste, we can't go with "over eating" as that word can mean "waste" or "excess" never "waste" AND "excess".
I agree.
Guess we are slowly coming to understanding with each other eh. I've learned quite a bit and i'm loving this discussion we've been having ) My only issue is that if we do go with it meaning "transgression" on 731 like almost everywhere else in the Quran, 6141 is still and issue as that refers to fruits and vegetables but you really can't break Gods rules eating those. Course it also mentions giving your share of them in 6141 which it might be referring to that rather but i'm not so sure /
And He is the One Who initiated gardens; both trellised and untrellised; and palm trees, and plants, all with different taste; and olives and pomegranates, similar and not similar. Eat from its fruit when it blossoms and give its due on the day of harvest; and do not waste. He does not like the wasteful. (6141)
This is the free-minds translation that translates it as waste meaning do not waste the fruits and vegetables, but if we were to change that to "transgress" as in breaking Gods rules, it wouldn't make as much sense unless we were to aim it somehow at the give due on the day of harvest part but i'm not so sure.
What do you think? )
-
Why don't you believe alcohol is forbidden? There are verses that forbid the consumption of intoxicants.
Thats a seperate discussion which we could have in another thread. But from the verses it does not appear to be prohibited as far as i can see.
Regardless, yeah I agrees that our bodies tell us when we've had enough, which I like to call getting to the level of "puking" which we should avoid. But Transgression doesn't mean to go beyond a limit in the sense of the word of "breaking Gods rules" as we transgress a lot of things in life from wasting time, to sleeping alot, walking, exercise, playing etc... but none clearly have been described as transgressions in that sense of the word, so if we are to label 731 with the word "Transgression" under the sense of the word that it means breaking Gods rules, then it would apply to what we eat and drink but don't eat or drink the forbidden stuff.
The view I have of transgression is that it can vary in degrees. So sleeping alot and so on IMO are transgressions but the only difference is in their degrees. If you oversleep in one occasion its a really really small transgression if the consequences are really small. Your oversleeping even in that one instance is a show of a lack of discpline or knowledge or whatever. Since we can view that it is better of the character who does not oversleep even in one occasion in comaprison to the one who does, it can be said that oversleeping even in one occasion is a negative thing, a small transgression (but so small a transgression that its nothing to worry about IMO)
But say oversleep all the time so your fall behind on so much, then the transgression increases. Naturally the consequences also. Its bad on the character and so bad in the sight of the God IMO.
Realize we cannot take what can "potentially" be as fact until we are 100% sure,
Very rarely can we be 100% sure. We just have to decide whats most reasonable. Probability of truth vs. consequences of carrying out the potential truth.
but understand that if there were two different ideas which are "wasting" and "over eating" they would have been listed as seperate ideas and not throw a word that is used for going over the limits to cover both as that can get pretty vague. Thus if we we were to go with "transgression" as in overeating/drinking then we can't do waste as waste is a seperate meaning for that same word but not the same meaning as that. If we were to go with waste, we can't go with "over eating" as that word can mean "waste" or "excess" never "waste" AND "excess".
I honestly don't think its vague. To overdo anything is to transgress and i can't think of seperate words for this. Where someone transgresses it is pretty clear IMO. Its just the scope of the word is wide but this doesn't mean its controversial. In that verse 731 overeating is used as an example of how someone could transgress. Whether the verse is also meant to include the idea of waste, im starting to think yes because by eating food your consuming it. To over eat, is to overconsume, to overconsume is to waste hence transgression.
This is the free-minds translation that translates it as waste meaning do not waste the fruits and vegetables, but if we were to change that to "transgress" as in breaking Gods rules, it wouldn't make as much sense unless we were to aim it somehow at the give due on the day of harvest part but i'm not so sure.
What do you think?
Why not? I honestly think it makes sense. Do not transgress would entail that we don't give away too much, eat too much dispose of pointlessly and so on. These are covered by the notion of transgression and i don't see how this makes less sense then to narrow it to just one aspect of transgressing with food. I genuinely think it makes more sense to not narrow the notion down.
I've learned quite a bit and i'm loving this discussion we've been having
Thats good to know. I'm also enjoying this discussion and I think we will come to an understanding with each other )
-
Thats a seperate discussion which we could have in another thread. But from the verses it does not appear to be prohibited as far as i can see.
The view I have of transgression is that it can vary in degrees. So sleeping alot and so on IMO are transgressions but the only difference is in their degrees. If you oversleep in one occasion its a really really small transgression if the consequences are really small. Your oversleeping even in that one instance is a show of a lack of discpline or knowledge or whatever. Since we can view that it is better of the character who does not oversleep even in one occasion in comaprison to the one who does, it can be said that oversleeping even in one occasion is a negative thing, a small transgression (but so small a transgression that its nothing to worry about IMO)
But say oversleep all the time so your fall behind on so much, then the transgression increases. Naturally the consequences also. Its bad on the character and so bad in the sight of the God IMO.
Are you freakin kidding me!? Don't try to put words in Gods mouth like that. If he hasn't forbidden something, you have no right to say its not allowed either. God made no mention of sleep or whatever else being forbidden. So don't say too much of something or too little of something isn't allowed if God hasn't made a mention of it. That's as bad as when the sunnis try to claim drawing and music aren't allowed when the Quran makes no mention of them. Doing too much of something is bad to you? That's only bad to you and the culture of this society, God made no mention of too much of anything is bad. I guess the one who studies, the one who paints and the one who works more than the average person are bad in Gods eyes even though he made no mention of it? Or better yet, someone who have too much faith is bad in Gods eyes!? Thats pretty damm ridiculous.
Sorry if i'm being rude but I really don't like hearing people make up things and deem that it is not allowed by God. Remember there are verses that forbid people from making what is halal as haram and what is haram as halal. As well the Quran has stated to not speak of things you don't have knowledge of, so don't be saying God doesn't like something when you have no idea of it as it wasn't stated in the book. Oversleeping may be an issue to the manmade cultures of society but sure isn't EVER mentioned by God to be bad. As long as you follow his rules, everything else is legal, so there is no "sleeping too much".
Falling behind on life? discipline of character? lack of knowledge? All that is manmade standards. As long as you follow God's rules as the book says, there is no too much or too little of anything unless said otherwise in the book and sleeping is not mentioned whatsoever. So don't take "transgression" just because you've heard it before used together with the words "Sin" "haram" or "breaking Gods rules" to mean that any sort of transgression is just that, as transgression to Gods book is only a sin. That is it. There is a nice article on Free-minds about halal and haram. Read that I suggest.
Again sorry if i'm rude here, that kinda struck a nerve on me due to my past experiences with traditionalists who make up such things and worse.
-
Are you freakin kidding me!? Don't try to put words in Gods mouth like that. If he hasn't forbid sonething you have no right to say its not allowed either.
Agreed. No one should prohibit something that is not prohibited.
God made no mention of sleep or whatever else. So don't say too much of something or too little of something isn't allowed if God hasn't made a mention of it.
My point is that too much of something or too little of something is a transgression and transgression is mentioned. The only thing is that people are different and so what may be too much or too little for someone will be the right amount for another. Thats why someone should be very careful before saying to someone your overdoing or underdoing something and the person who outright prohibits something for someone, better have rock solid reasons for doing so.
Thats as bad if not worse then when sunnis try to claim drawing and music aren't allowed when the Quran makes no mention of them. Doing too much of something is bad to you? Thats only bad to you, God made no mention of too much of anything is bad. I guess the one who studies, the one who paints and the one who works more than the average person are sinners to you? Thats pretty damm ridiculous.
No, thats why in my other post in addition to this one, I mentioned that transgression is subject and context dependent.
Sorry i'm being rude
Don't worry about it buddy ) Just a misunderstanding (i think). It's why you gotta be careful before getting passionate in a discussion. Misunderstandings are common and judgements should ideally be postivie towards others. Enhances the chances of peace and lessens the chance of conflict.
-
Agreed. No one should prohibit something that is not prohibited.
My point is that too much of something or too little of something is a transgression and transgression is mentioned. The only thing is that people are different and so what may be too much or too little for someone will be the right amount for another. Thats why someone should be very careful before saying to someone your overdoing or underdoing something and the person who outright prohibits something for someone, better have rock solid reasons for doing so.
No, thats why in my other post in addition to this one, I mentioned that transgression is subject and context dependent.Don't worry about it buddy Just a misunderstanding (i think). It's why you gotta be careful before getting passionate in a discussion. Misunderstandings are common and judgements should ideally be postivie towards others. Enhances the chances of peace and lessens the chance of conflict.
Very rarely can we be 100% sure. We just have to decide whats most reasonable. Probability of truth vs. consequences of carrying out the potential truth.
I guess, but we wanna get as sure as possible which is why I post a lot of questions here.
I honestly don't think its vague. To overdo anything is to transgress and i can't think of seperate words for this. Where someone transgresses it is pretty clear IMO. Its just the scope of the word is wide but this doesn't mean its controversial. In that verse 731 overeating is used as an example of how someone could transgress. Whether the verse is also meant to include the idea of waste, im starting to think yes because by eating food your consuming it. To over eat, is to overconsume, to overconsume is to waste hence transgression.
Not true. Transgressing in this context can mean going over in "eating" and "drinking" as it never mentioned waste. It didn't say "throw things away, but don't exceed" it said "eat and drink, but don't exceed". Of course if you decide to use waste then it will refer to waste as that's a seperate meaning of the same word. Also overconsuming is NOT waste. Wasting is throwing something away. If you eat or drink something, its been put to use and thus not wasted (unless thrown up ). Also lets keep the words "transgression" and "Exceed" seperate as "transgression" usually better means breaking Gods rules (sinning" while "exceed" meanings over doing something.
Why not? I honestly think it makes sense. Do not transgress would entail that we don't give away too much, eat too much dispose of pointlessly and so on. These are covered by the notion of transgression and i don't see how this makes less sense then to narrow it to just one aspect of transgressing with food. I genuinely think it makes more sense to not narrow the notion down.
As I said "transgress" as in "Breaking God's rules"and not overdoing something. That wouldn't fit the context of 641 well as there are no forbidden fruits here to eat while 731 has alcohol and pork that is forbidden to eat (again I interpret alcohol as forbidden). But the reason I say both 731 and 641 have to use the same meaning of that word when that same word can mean "Waste" "excess" or "Transgress" is because they both use the exact same word and phrasing as each other, but of course I don't know Arabic grammar, so maybe it can cause otherwise i'd think exceed would work best (as in paying too much charity) with 641 and Transgress best with 731 (Transgress as in breaking rules as in eat and drinking forbidden stuff).
-
Agreed. No one should prohibit something that is not prohibited.
My point is that too much of something or too little of something is a transgression and transgression is mentioned. The only thing is that people are different and so what may be too much or too little for someone will be the right amount for another. Thats why someone should be very careful before saying to someone your overdoing or underdoing something and the person who outright prohibits something for someone, better have rock solid reasons for doing so.
No, thats why in my other post in addition to this one, I mentioned that transgression is subject and context dependent.Don't worry about it buddy ) Just a misunderstanding (i think). It's why you gotta be careful before getting passionate in a discussion. Misunderstandings are common and judgements should ideally be postivie towards others. Enhances the chances of peace and lessens the chance of conflict.
twitches Transgression means breaka Gods rules as in doing something that is forbidden. IT DOES NOT MEAN EXCESS IN EVERYTHING IS SINFUL!! its mentioned clearly when too much of something is forbidden like too much charity. Don't make everything haram. there is no mention whatsoever that too much of something is haram unless said otherwise. Trangression means going over the limits, but its only a sin if you go over the limits as in past the halal and into the haram.
so don't fo making remarks like that. Too much faith nor too much praying nor too much thinking is forbidden for obvious reasons, and neither is anything else that is not mentioned.
The context was clearly talking abour food and drinks NOT EVERYTHING and even so it was likely talking about doing haram in foods and drinks as in alcohol and pork and not about overdoing anything.
like seriously don't forbid things God hasn't forbid, its a sin on you. Noone one ever in history or now claimed too much of something is forbidden unless stated in the Quran!
-
twitches Transgression means breaka Gods rules as in doing something that is forbidden. IT DOES NOT MEAN EXCESS IN EVERYTHING IS SINFUL!!
I think it does. If i exceed in anything, i think i have transgressed and have broken a law of God or exceeded a limit set by God. Dont you think overdoing something is sinful? We might have different ideas on what constitutes sin.
Look at 6141
And He it is who causes gardens to grow, trellised and untrellised, and palm trees and crops of different food and olives and pomegranates, similar and dissimilar. Eat of its fruit when it yields and give its due on the day of its harvest. And be not excessive. Indeed, He does not like those who commit excess.
As your aware, here the word used is transgress. Its the same word used in 731The excess in here also refers to zakat. So clearly one can transgress in zakat (by giving too much or too little)
its mentioned clearly when too much of something is forbidden like too much charity
Ok but too much charity is transgression as suggested by 6141
Don't make everything haram.
Im not.
there is no mention whatsoever that too much of something is haram unless said otherwise
.
Im saying too much of something (anything) = transgression and we are told not too transgress.Trangression means going over the limits, but its only a sin if you go over the limits as in past the halal and into the haram.
This is your view of transgression. In my opinion that is too narrow a view of transgression. There is no controversy in saying that transgression = going over the limits. To limit it to a a few instances of overdoing is controversial IMO. Its like saying let's ignore some transgressions and label some transgressions as genuine transgressions.
Ultimately I think it might come down to this
Do we agree that transgression = going over the limits? If yes then why do we then say going over the limits on sleeping, playing music and so on is ok whilst going over the limits by eating too much or eating pork is not?
-
I think it does. If i exceed in anything, i think i have transgressed and have broken a law of God or exceeded a limit set by God. Dont you think overdoing something is sinful? We might have different ideas on what constitutes sin.
So you are saying that praying a lot, learning knowledge a lot, painting a lot, and many other things that have NOT been forbidden is a sin?
So in other words if I like God a lot, I guess i'm a sinner.
If some country invades and states "I'm here to destroy the religions of God and if anyone transgresses our plan, they are transgressors." I guess I am also sinning for trying to defend my religion.
Seeing how ridiculous what you are saying is. You are clearly taking 731's "God does not like the Transgressors" on its own to mean all types of transgressions and not the ones specifically stated in the Quran.
If that is your logic I guess we aren't allowed to be happy
"Qaroon was from among the people of Moses, but he betrayed them. And We gave him such treasures that the keys thereof were almost too heavy for the strongest person. His people said to him "Do not glee, for God does not love the gleeful."
(2876)I guess being happy is forbidden to you as you don't take entire verses on and only take a section of a verse to mean what you wish. Thus I guess we are suppose to be sad and miserable eh. Clearly 2876 is bringing up a metaphor when read together that it means one shouldn't be prideful about his riches like Qarun who was mean to his people because it got to his head.
But as 731 states
"O Children of Adam, dress nicely at every temple, and eat and drink and do not Transgress; He does not like the Transgressors." (731)
Read the verse TOGETHER. You can see he is only referring to food here and not everything.
The only times transgressions are mentioned are in reference to people who broke rules that were ALREADY mentioned such as Zina such as murder, such as eating illegal food. Not about doing something too much. Honestly don't make up things without properly studying it.
Look at 6141
And He it is who causes gardens to grow, trellised and untrellised, and palm trees and crops of different food and olives and pomegranates, similar and dissimilar. Eat of its fruit when it yields and give its due on the day of its harvest. And be not excessive. Indeed, He does not like those who commit excess.
As your aware, here the word used is transgress. Its the same word used in 731The excess in here also refers to zakat. So clearly one can transgress in zakat (by giving too much or too little)
Ok but too much charity is transgression as suggested by 6141Here is refers to only over paying Zakat that is if we take it to refer to overpaying Zakat. The Free-minds translation takes it to mean wasting the food mentioned. Regardless again its states ONLY the zakat doesn't say everything.
Im saying too much of something (anything) = transgression and we are told not too transgress.
Told not to transgress against God given laws! We are told not to eat pork so doing so means we transgressed. We are told not to pay too much charity, if we do then we have transgressed. It tells us what to do and not do and I see no mentioned ANYWHERE that transgressing things that aren't in the Quran is a sin.
This is your view of transgression. In my opinion that is too narrow a view of transgression. There is no controversy in saying that transgression = going over the limits. To limit it to a a few instances of overdoing is controversial IMO. Its like saying let's ignore some transgressions and label some transgressions as genuine transgressions.
Okay then prove it to me where it states exceeding everything that isn't in the book is a sin? He has told us what is and what isn't, are you gonna seek a judge besides God? (AKA yourself?) And this isn't just me, its unanimous and especially in this Quran-only society that we only avoid what are told to avoid. I see no ignoring of transgressions. God didn't tell me I can't sleep for 12 hours a day if I wish, God didn't tell me I can't pray to him too much, God didn't tell me I can't paint for hours on end. And yes what you say is quite controversial. Give me a verse that states that too much of anything is bad? I mean anything not just one thing ANYTHING. You can't? well too bad, cause God left nothing out of his book as he stated. If he wanted to tell us if doing too much of something is a sin he would have told us. Don't be like the traditionalists who use hadiths to make up laws that aren't in the Quran...only difference is at least they are using hadiths which they believe have divinity, you are just making up stuff that is quite dangerous and have no evidence either.
Ultimately I think it might come down to this
Do we agree that transgression = going over the limits? If yes then why do we then say going over the limits on sleeping, playing music and so on is ok whilst going over the limits by eating too much or eating pork is not?
Because God said it is a sin to eat pork and told us that excess charity or excess spending is a sin, but he NEVER told us that sleeping a lot or anything else is a sin.
Also please realize one important things
TransgressionUsually means to break God given rules (AKA what is mentioned in the quran like eating Pork)
The Transgression you are saying is better translated as "Excess" and that is what everyone who translated ones about over doing something did.They are two different meanings and you are doing a serious sin by making whats halal as haram.
Here read this article on halal and haram and you'll understand better I hope.
http//free-minds.org/halal-haram
And especially take note of what the end of the article states
"All things that are not mentioned as being Haram, are, by default, Halal.
Yes, that is how simple things are. What God did not mention as being Haram, is ALLOWED by the Almighty for His servants.
We are NOT to play the role of God and falsely claim this is Haram or that is Haram because of our personal desires. We must REMEMBER that these words may only be uttered by our Lord and Master, and that He has already spoken.
Please remember this the next time someone asks you "Is this Haram?", and tell them that if it was never mentioned by God, then no power on Earth can make it Haram.
May God guide us all to His light."
-
Peace Aryan Warrior
So you are saying that praying a lot, learning knowledge a lot, painting a lot, and many other things that have NOT been forbidden is a sin?
Do you think praying alot is the equivalent of praying excessively or praying transgressively?
I don't remember saying that doing alot of something is a transgression. i said to my understanding excess/too much, is a transgression and yes praying excessively is a transgression. because it is praying transgressively Its a bit like saying praying sinfully.
Important to note is that alot of something does not neccessarily = transgression You can have alot of something but still need more. But you can never have too much of something and need more....
So in other words if I like God a lot, I guess i'm a sinner.
No, if you like God excessively then you are a transgressor. But it may be the case that you cannot ever like God in excess. This might clarify my point of view.
If some country invades and states "I'm here to destroy the religions of God and if anyone transgresses our plan, they are transgressors." I guess I am also sinning for trying to defend my religion.
??
Seeing how ridiculous what you are saying is. You are clearly taking 731's "God does not like the Transgressors" on its own to mean all types of transgressions and not the ones specifically stated in the Quran.
Lets keep this discussion as good as possible. Suggesting that what im saying is ridiculous can potentially provoke and change the whole tone of the discussion. If I said something like your posts are ridiculous would you not be offended?
If that is your logic I guess we aren't allowed to be happy
"Qaroon was from among the people of Moses, but he betrayed them. And We gave him such treasures that the keys thereof were almost too heavy for the strongest person. His people said to him "Do not glee, for God does not love the gleeful."
(2876)I think you misunderstood my logic. In addition to that, what the people said is not the law of God even if its in the Quran.
"O Children of Adam, dress nicely at every temple, and eat and drink and do not Transgress; He does not like the Transgressors." (731)
Read the verse TOGETHER. You can see he is only referring to food here and not everything.
My point is that this is one example of transgression. We are told that the God does not like the transgressors. Il get back to this point at the end of this post.
The only times transgressions are mentioned are in reference to people who broke rules that were ALREADY mentioned such as Zina such as murder, such as eating illegal food. Not about doing something too much. Honestly don't make up things without properly studying it.
There is a chance that Im wrong and a chance that Im right or a chance that we're both wrong or a chance that your right. If im right, how bad would your accusation of me making things up look? So make no accusations that are negative. Their not needed. Just engage in the discussion. Its better that way.
It tells us what to do and not do and I see no mentioned ANYWHERE that transgressing things that aren't in the Quran is a sin.
God didn't tell me I can't sleep for 12 hours a day if I wish, God didn't tell me I can't pray to him too much, God didn't tell me I can't paint for hours on end.
Nor did I. But its pretty clear that the God said that it does not like the transgressors.
Give me a verse that states that too much of anything is bad? I mean anything not just one thing ANYTHING. You can't? well too bad,
Give me a chance.....
Ok this example might be useful
Fahisha is a transgression. Fahisha can entail many actions. All the actions that can be fahisha are not mentioned in the Quran. There are about two examples of fahisha given in the Quran (i think).
Fahisha is mentioned in the Quran. We have a notion of what is fahisha and all possible acts that entail fahisha. NowShould we consider only the two or three examples of fahisha in the Quran to be the only instances of genuine fahisha or should we literally say that fahisha is prohibted and then to engage in a discussion about what could be fahisha and why.
If I understand you correctly, your reasoning suggests that we are allowed to commit acts that we think are somewhat fashisha so long as it is not one of the examples given in the Quran in relation to fahisha. Will you hold this view???
"All things that are not mentioned as being Haram, are, by default, Halal.
I think I am a strong advocate when it comes to the view that nothing is prohibited unless entailed by the Quran appropriately and adequately. It was an important point of my defence in another discussion I was having a while ago. Its ironic that I should be accused of going against this principle.
Peace
-
Alright... here we go in the endless flame war.
Peace Aryan Warrior
Peace
Do you think praying alot is the equivalent of praying excessively or praying transgressively?
I don't remember saying that doing alot of something is a transgression. i said to my understanding excess/too much, is a transgression and yes praying excessively is a transgression. because it is praying transgressively Its a bit like saying praying sinfully.
Important to note is that alot of something does not neccessarily = transgression You can have alot of something but still need more. But you can never have too much of something and need more....
No, if you like God excessively then you are a transgressor. But it may be the case that you cannot ever like God in excess. This might clarify my point of view.twiches so worship of God is a sin to you now... if done in excess... sigh... I love how people have forgotten that this religion isn't suppose to be a burden and yet you make it seem as such.
Lets keep this discussion as good as possible. Suggesting that what im saying is ridiculous can potentially provoke and change the whole tone of the discussion. If I said something like your posts are ridiculous would you not be offended?
You already have offended me when you said praying excessively to God is a sin...
I think you misunderstood my logic. In addition to that, what the people said is not the law of God even if its in the Quran.
And yet God used it as an example. God doesn't lie, so why would he put this in there as a great example against Qaruns pride in money.
My point is that this is one example of transgression. We are told that the God does not like the transgressors. Il get back to this point at the end of this post.
If you read it with the whole context you can see he means it to that case and that "transgressor" that God doesn't like are those that go against his laws AKA sin such as Zina. I hardly cannot believe that a just God would hate someone who who enjoys his lawful things a bit too much.
Nor did I. But its pretty clear that the God said that it does not like the transgressors.
Read the above.
Give me a chance.....
Ok this example might be useful
Fahisha is a transgression. Fahisha can entail many actions. All the actions that can be fahisha are not mentioned in the Quran. There are about two examples of fahisha given in the Quran (i think).
Fahisha is mentioned in the Quran. We have a notion of what is fahisha and all possible acts that entail fahisha. NowShould we consider only the two or three examples of fahisha in the Quran to be the only instances of genuine fahisha or should we literally say that fahisha is prohibted and then to engage in a discussion about what could be fahisha and why.
If I understand you correctly, your reasoning suggests that we are allowed to commit acts that we think are somewhat fashisha so long as it is not one of the examples given in the Quran in relation to fahisha. Will you hold this view???
hoho you decided to dig up something like fahisha against me. Alright let me answer this.
First off we got three verses and they go as followed
-
?Do not marry the women who were previously married to your fathers-existing marriages are exempted, for it is a fahisha, and an abominable act.? (4/22),
-
?Lot said to his people, ?You commit such an fahisha; no one in the world has done it before!? (7/80)
-
?Do not go near Zina, for it is a Fahisha and an evil path.? (17/32)
-" Do not marry what your fathers had married from the women, except what has already been done. It is fahisha, abhorrence, and a bad path. Forbidden for you are your mothers, your daughters, your sisters, your fathers' sisters, your mothers' sisters, the daughters of your brother, and the daughters of your sister, your foster mothers who suckled you, your sisters from suckling, the mothers of your wives, and your step-daughters residing in your homes from your wives which you have already consummated the marriage with; if you have not consummated the marriage then there is no sin upon you; and the wives of your sons that are from your seed, and that you join between two sisters except what has already been done. God is Forgiving, Compassionate." (422-23)
You may say it doesn't cover everything but actually it DOES cover everything. It states not to go near Zina thus this means intercourse, foreplay and all related sexual acts with someone else. It also forbids homosexuality, so that is done too. As well it forbids incest. Thus thats everything that one can possibly think is fahisha.
Also thank you for bringing up fahisha as that called my nerves a bit about this topic as I feel even more sure as I took notice as to how well God has indeed covered fahisha.
Thus God fully explained it so don't try to use that as a hardball against me. Try again, find a verse that explains that all excessive things are a sin. Reading the Quran excessively a sin? is seeing your children excessively a sin? is doing rightous deed excessively a sin? Still sounds quite farfetched and quite burdensome for a religion that is suppose to be burdenless.
I think I am a strong advocate when it comes to the view that nothing is prohibited unless entailed by the Quran appropriately and adequately. It was an important point of my defence in another discussion I was having a while ago. Its ironic that I should be accused of going against this principle.
Peace
Well you are saying stuff that aren't mentioned in the Quran...much like how the Sunnis and Shias do where they claim music is illegal.
-