3:7 A MATTER OF PUNCTUATION MARKS. WHICH IS CORRECT?
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Peace Ayman, Shuaib, all
Salam brother Shuaib,
Thank you for providing a very good analysis of 37. I enjoyed reading it and I am now thinking about it.
You have not given a coherent definition of al-kitaab. First, I thought your definition was straightforward... it was simply the book of our recorded actions. Each person will have an individual book of actions.
THAT, is an ENTIRELY separate thing from the physical world which you also call al-kitaab. Firstly, this definition of KITAAB is absolutely unwarranted and bizarre. WHY on earth would the physical universe be called kitaab?
Brother, please have patience and see 21104 where the folding of the universe is described as the folding of "books" (plural).
Just to say that "We roll up the heavens like the scroll of a scripture is rolled up" is an allegory.
You would think if this entire universe and everything in it should be referred to as kitaab, that there would be SOME mention in the Quran that says, hey muslims, the universe and your actions are all kitaabs. You are a kitaab, you'll get a kitaab that you wrote by living in a kitaab.
What is in the heavens and the Earth is in a record (kitab), that doesn't imply that the heavens and the Earth = kitaab but both are closely dependent
FM
2270. Did you not know that God knows what is in the heavens and the Earth? All is in a record. All that for God is easy.Ahmad shabir
2270 Do you not know that Allah is fully Aware of all that is in the High and the Low? All that, behold, is in the Divine Database. Verily, all this is easy for Allah.- And there is not a thing hidden in the heavens or the Earth, but is in a clear record
Allow me a small parenthesis
When I read the book on "before the big bang", the authors arrive to this amazing conclusion, The universe before the big bang = information and have no physical aspectInformation---->big bang---> the universe----->the end---> information
Allah knows best
Marie
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salam mary,
thank you for your contribution.
What is in the heavens and the Earth is in a record (kitab), that doesn't imply that the heavens and the Earth = kitaab but both are closely dependent
Well my sentiment exactly, except I dont know if i can say CLOSELY related. But they are related. Just as when someone builds a house, there is a relation between the two. But DEFINITELY, as you agree, they are not one and the same and the terms are not INTERCHANGEABLE as br. idolfree implies in his interpretations of quranic ayaat such as 22.
The universe before the big bang = information and have no physical aspect
Well that's an interesting speculation, but it has no basis in knowledge since there is no scientific knowledge that can explain what happened before the big bang or what will happen after the final end since science itself ceases to exist. We can only know about that, from what ALLAH tells us... and he tells us knowledge of these things through SIMILITUDES (mutashabihaat) since obviously, we can only understand and relate to physical things such as gardens of paradise and fires of hell.
wassalam
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Salam Shuaib,
salam mary,
The universe before the big bang = information and have no physical aspect
Well that's an interesting speculation, but it has no basis in knowledge since there is no scientific knowledge that can explain what happened before the big bang or what will happen after the final end since science itself ceases to exist. We can only know about that, from what ALLAH tells us... and he tells us knowledge of these things through SIMILITUDES (mutashabihaat) since obviously, we can only understand and relate to physical things such as gardens of paradise and fires of hell.
wassalam
This is what I have said to brother idris in this thread "Before the Big Bang"
The authors propose a new and speculative solution to the problem of the initial singularity situated before the Big Bang (the point zero of the space - time). They combine mathematical and physical approachs and they find amazing results.
It is better and more interesting to read the book.
I consider all what we observe in the heavens and the Earth is originated from encoded information, this why I have said they are CLOSELY related.
Peace
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salam marie,
I consider all what we observe in the heavens and the Earth is originated from encoded information, this why I have said they are CLOSELY related.
So do you believe that Allah is merely encoded information?? I think you've got the wrong idea here.
You can develop theories about what happened AFTER the big bang, that's fine. And Allah indeed says to look at the universe and creation and see how he made everything according to a design.
BUT, as far as HOW everything came into existence, it's a different story. He said BE, and it was. There is no mention of a preexisting pool of "information."
So where are you coming up with this idea of ENCODED information? First of all, why would information have to be encoded? That implies that information has to be put into a specific language by Allah in order to create.
Are you putting restrictions on Allah with your theories?? How did you come to that conclusion? You are presenting a very humanoid picture of what the HEAVENS must be like.
wassalam
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Peace shuaib,
salam marie,
I consider all what we observe in the heavens and the Earth is originated from encoded information, this why I have said they are CLOSELY related.
So do you believe that Allah is merely encoded information?? I think you've got the wrong idea here.
Sorry for the confusion, I'm not speaking about Allah but the creation. The science is a good tool to improve our understanding about it.
You can develop theories about what happened AFTER the big bang, that's fine. And Allah indeed says to look at the universe and creation and see how he made everything according to a design.
Before judging the book "before the big bang", you have at least to read it.
BUT, as far as HOW everything came into existence, it's a different story. He said BE, and it was. There is no mention of a preexisting pool of "information."
Just an example to illustrate what I mean by information the genetic code.
Are you putting restrictions on Allah with your theories?? How did you come to that conclusion? You are presenting a very humanoid picture of what the HEAVENS must be like.
T repeat it again, I'm speaking about the creation and not the creator, All prise to Allah, the science allows us to improve our knowledge.
It is not forbidden to understand the secrets of the creation, and there is no limit for the knowledge.
Another book very interesting written by Igor ang Grichka Bogdanov (mathematician and physicist) and Jean Guitton (philosopher) God and the science.
Peace
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salam marie,
thanks for the references. i actually have seen you post them previously. if i had time or extra money i might just pursue that, but i already know that it's a fruitless idea to figure out what happened before the big bang.
As far as your reference to the genetic code, it's irrelevant since that is AFTER the big bang. I understand what information and encoded information is. It makes sense for this world that is bound by physical scientific laws.
But it makes little sense to say that Allah created things based on encoded information. He is above encoding/decoding.
Every reputable scientist that I know, has stated that what happened before the big bang is not within the realm of science. And Allah as well says that he merely said BE, and it was. He did not use preexisting elements to form this universe. He just said BE.
Human beings are bound to the physical restraints of their brains, which are bound by the physical restraints of this universe. It's pointless to try and think what happened BEFORE the big bang since time itself did not even exist. It does not surprise me that there are some scientists out there trying to figure it out though, since they also sometimes believe that God can be explained through mathematics.
wassalam
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Salam shuaib
Every reputable scientist that I know, has stated that what happened before the big bang is not within the realm of science.
You do not hold absolute science to draw a similar conclusion?
Allah knows best!
And Allah as well says that he merely said BE, and it was. He did not use preexisting elements to form this universe. He just said BE.
Incredible!
Was you with the God when He creates the universe?
Do you claim that you hold 100% true meaning of "BE and IT IS""?Human beings are bound to the physical restraints of their brains, which are bound by the physical restraints of this universe. It's pointless to try and think what happened BEFORE the big bang since time itself did not even exist.
I am disappointed of your reaction, you continue to judge this book before to read it because the authors speaks about time, they are not stupid.
Conclusions based on any science are useless. It is more better to abstain.
It does not surprise me that there are some scientists out there trying to figure it out though, since they also sometimes believe that God can be explained through mathematics.
No comment
I leave you with peace
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Peace be upon you Shuiab,
I have a problem with what you are saying. And when I say twisting words, I mean playing fast and loose with your own definitions. Being like a slippery fish meaning that you change the definitions of your terms to suit whatever point you make.
I do not see where I am changing definitions, I am sorry tat I am not making this clear enough for you. With patience, I think we can arrive at an agreeable point. Lets continue.
You have not given a coherent definition of al-kitaab. First, I thought your definition was straightforward... it was simply the book of our recorded actions. Each person will have an individual book of actions.
No, more than that, al kitaab is EVERYTHING there is. Think about this, books are created from "words". All of creation comes from the God's word "BE" and it becomes. So everythiing you look at is from a word "Be". So the entire universe is but a collection of "words", will you agree to this basic point? And what is a collection of words but a writing/book? We can look at the word Universe and see the same understanding. UNI=One, Verse=word, therefore we have ONE-WORD. "BE" and it becomes. Please be patient with what I am saying and think about it. Even the word PERSO, comes from the meaning of PER=through, and SONA = sound, therefore PERSONA= Through SOUND.
"BE" and it becomes.
THAT, is an ENTIRELY separate thing from the physical world which you also call al-kitaab
I hope I have corrected the confusion above.
. Firstly, this definition of KITAAB is absolutely unwarranted and bizarre. WHY on earth would the physical universe be called kitaab? Sure, the things that play out in the physical universe can relate to and enter into our books of actions, BUT the universe itself cannot be called kitaab!
As shown above, ALL THINGS come from the word "BE". Everything is a collection of words. To take it further, everything is SOUND, which comes from vibration, and EVERYTHING is in a state of vibration.
Firstly, the Arabic TOTALLY does not warrant that meaning... and the Quran was revealed in Arabic for a reason, and the Arabic language has been preserved for a reason.
Kitaab means book/writing. I think I have shown sufficient evidence above. Please let me know your opinion.
Since I've said it twice and you didn't understand, let me make it crystal clear
Definition of al-kitaab according to you
Book of each individuals accumulated actions
vs.
The physical universeThese are two, totally separate, MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE items. For you to mix the two seamlessly just shows your mentality.
My brother, why do you feel it necessary to attack my mentality? Please excersice some patience. I wish nothing but peace for the seekers of knowledge.
I feel like the only thing left to do is shake my hands at you... these 2 things are NOT the same.
Please take the FEELINGS out of this, that will always cause a problem.
The physical universe and a human beings LIFE in the universe are NOT the same, they are 2 distinct things.
Humans are made from the earth, we contain iron, zinc,magnesium, etc. How can you say we are NOT part of the WHOLE?
SEPARATELY indentifiable, SEPARATE characteristics, SEPARATE ends. The physical world will END, our book of life is what is used to judge us. 2 TOTALLY separate COMPLETELY different things.
Our physical bodies will end also, then we will be returned to the ONE MIND which we came from.
Yet you apparently effortlessly matter-of-factly blend the 2 seamlessly. I've heard a lot of interesting philosophical views in my time, and this is one of the most bizarre I have to say.
So i'll leave it at that for now... I won't even comment (I guess I already am) on your faulty translation of la RAIBA FIHI. We cannot advance in the discussion unless we get over this hump.
I hope I have given my position more clarity. Please let me know if you still disagree.
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Peace be upon you Ayman,
Brother, please have patience and see 21104 where the folding of the universe is described as the folding of "books" (plural).
Excellent verse brother! Thanks for the clarification.
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Salams br idolfree,
Thanks for replying. You know, looking through our discussion I think we may be approaching a standstill. I think part of the problem is that you are pretty happy with what you believe, and I am merely presenting arguments against it. In my experience, that's never worked, ever, in convincing anyone of anything. You have to balance that by presenting an alternative, and we've gotten so engrossed that I haven't really given much indication of how I view Islam and the message. I'll try to do that as much as I can.
Anyway, you didn't really clarify anything you said in the past. You merely restated it, in almost the exact same wording. You also ignored some points I made which I think you should have responded to rather than just restating yourself.
No, more than that, al kitaab is EVERYTHING there is.
Do you have any Quranic evidence to back up the idea that EVERYTHING is al-kitaab? That we are kitaabs and that we will get a kitaab by living in a kitaab?? You would think the Quran would spell out clearly such a dramatic philosophy.
UNI=One, Verse=word, therefore we have ONE-WORD. "BE" and it becomes.
Saying this more than once does not make it more valid. Basing views of the universe on word games with the English word universe is a little... odd don't you think? The construction of English words should hardly be a resource for the philosophical positions of a Muslim.
So the entire universe is but a collection of "words", will you agree to this basic point?
No, actually I won't. Words are things that are used by human beings as verbal symbols, allowing us to conveniently communicate ideas. Words are TOOLS to be used by us, nothing more. Words are symbols. Symbols mean NOTHING by themselves, it is what they symbolize that has meaning.
Humans are made from the earth, we contain iron, zinc,magnesium, etc. How can you say we are NOT part of the WHOLE?
You miss the point. Humans are mostly made of water, i.e. water leads to our genesis. But we ALSO are totally distinct in character to the ocean, which is also made of water. Just because 2 things are made of water, does not mean they are the same or INDISTINGUISHABLE or ONE or PART OF THE WHOLE. Just the same way, we have been created by elements of this universe, but the universe is still distinct from us.
A human being and his actions are a TOTALLY different thing than the physical universe that is at his disposal. I repeat
If a human being builds a house, he is not the house and the house is not him!
So anyway, enough of that. I am sure you will disagree and have plenty of responses consisting mostly of repeating what you said before. But, I think I should at least say some words of what I believe.
Firstly, there is a BIG distinction between this physical universe and "Allah's world," or the afterlife. It is NOT a mental universe as you once put it since no human being can imagine it. It is totally beyond space-time restrictions of any kind. Allah through his Divine powers created the universe by saying KUN (now does this LITERALLY mean he has a mouth and a voice and SAID the Arabic word KUN??? of course not). The point is that Allah only has to order something and it happens. BUT once creation was started (i.e. big bang) then space-time was created and the laws of physics take hold as we know it and everything unfolds according to a model (333. Humans are then created as well. Everything in the physical world is bound by unchanging laws, and SO is the human social world. Just like in science how we learn things by trial and error, so too in the human social world we could go on trying to learn the human laws by trial and error. But Allah saved us the trouble and misery by granting us GUIDANCE in the form of the Quran. That is why the declaration of 22 is so important (and why it is RIGHT after the opening declaration) ----
Here is the book within which is no doubt, a guidance for those who wish to save themselves from life's perils.
wassalam
(I'll take the time here to explain that LA RAIBA FIHI refers to kitaab, NOT to huda as you implied. In your "translation" you would separate the sentence this way thaalikal kitaabu la raib / feehi hudallil mutaqeen. This is totally incorrect grammar as ANYONE with any experience in Arabic knows. It's so blatant that its almost a waste of my time to explain because it shows the person hasn't taken the time to learn simple Arabic. But I'll just say, that to say thaalikal kitaabu la raib, is an incomplete sentence and totally grammatically incorrect. The sentence only makes sense if you ADD fihi to the first part. That's the beauty of the Arabic language... there's no hanging participles like in English, and no doubt how to interpret it.)
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salam marie,
You do not hold absolute science to draw a similar conclusion?
I'm not sure what you mean. I'll just explain what I meant. Mainstream scientists today pretty much uniformly agree that scientific understanding can extend up to the point of singularity (big bang) but cannot extend right to the bang and DEFINITELY not before the big bang. That is because science itself is based upon a model of the universe, and the universe itself ceases to exist at singularity.
Incredible!
Was you with the God when He creates the universe?
Do you claim that you hold 100% true meaning of "BE and IT IS""?Well the Quran IS our guidance, and the Quran IS the basis for Islamic philosophy my dear. I am a human and can make mistakes, but the Quran is clear. If you differ from my understanding, don't be childish and say "Were you with Allah." Just give your understanding of that verse. It will be clear to those with knowledge which interpretation is closer to the truth.
am disappointed of your reaction, you continue to judge this book before to read it because the authors speaks about time, they are not stupid.
I didn't mean to judge the book, I said I wish I had the luxury to read it. But I said my views are different based on an understanding of the Quran and mainstream science. Believe me, there are many scientists out there yearning to write books to make a quick buck. Maybe this book is more than that, but to claim that they can mathematically describe singularity or even what was BEFORE, is ludicrous (in my opinion), especially since human beings are so FINITE that it is impossible to even IMAGINE something infinite or infinitely small. We can approximate, but never grasp the true meaning of these concepts.
Anyway, it's an interesting point.
wassalam
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Peace brother shuaib,
I was a little surprised when yu said this
And Allah as well says that he merely said BE, and it was. He did not use preexisting elements to form this universe. He just said BE.
I think ""BE and it becomes/is/was" is more complicated than we could imagines it.
You also can say it and you will not obtain nothing lol
Peace
Marie
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Peace shuaib ,all
Salams all,
br zlatan, we will await your response.. if it takes time, it must be worth it.
What you say is generally true...The God wiling it would also be the case with this comment of mine...
I guess many of us have a lot of other obligations in life beside this forum..i dont understand where do you people find the time to read and particularly to write all this stuff !?
In regards of me, if i am writing one or two detail posts or analysis today, i need at least a half of a day to do it as it should be done... .
I feel most of the participants are somehow too rushhy jumping from the topic to topic and from one understanding to other without actually taking time for deep pondering, detaily analysis and without checking translations thoroughly, and particularly, without checking all the stuff in the light of the book as a whole...meanings of the verses are highly mutualy dependaple....
If you dont mind, before my response, it would be good that you first provide your translation which i asked you a few days ago....as i have already said your understanding is based on a subjective interpretation rather than upon any translation of the verse? even in the case that it contains some truth all of its claims can not be correct and/or can not be placed under the single umbrella as you did it...
But to witness this you first must coin/provide the translation on which it is based .....i repeat, imo, you wont be able to offer any translation from which all this meanings could be extricated without subjective additions and overinterpretation-not based on the text or actualy wording of the translation?
anyway thanks for a nice discussion
best wishes, Zlatan
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Peace be upon you Shuiab,
Thanks for replying.
No need to thank me brother D We are debating (not arguing) so I must reply D
You know, looking through our discussion I think we may be approaching a standstill. I think part of the problem is that you are pretty happy with what you believe, and I am merely presenting arguments against it. In my experience, that's never worked, ever, in convincing anyone of anything. You have to balance that by presenting an alternative, and we've gotten so engrossed that I haven't really given much indication of how I view Islam and the message. I'll try to do that as much as I can.
If I see an argument that is sufficient, I guarantee you that I will change my understanding.
Anyway, you didn't really clarify anything you said in the past. You merely restated it, in almost the exact same wording. You also ignored some points I made which I think you should have responded to rather than just restating yourself.
I have answered as best I could, I will try to continue to be as clear as possible.
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No, more than that, al kitaab is EVERYTHING there is.Do you have any Quranic evidence to back up the idea that EVERYTHING is al-kitaab? That we are kitaabs and that we will get a kitaab by living in a kitaab?? You would think the Quran would spell out clearly such a dramatic philosophy.
From the verses already presnted to you, do you disagree that Al kitaab is not the same as al quraan? We need to settle this first, so lets go point by point.
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UNI=One, Verse=word, therefore we have ONE-WORD. "BE" and it becomes.Saying this more than once does not make it more valid. Basing views of the universe on word games with the English word universe is a little... odd don't you think? The construction of English words should hardly be a resource for the philosophical positions of a Muslim.
I will respect that for this discussion, but since this message deals with humanity, you should hold on to that information for future use, it gives big clues as to what the men who coined those terms was trying to get across.
However, "BE" and it is is part of this reading(quraan) , so I hope you address that point.
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So the entire universe is but a collection of "words", will you agree to this basic point?No, actually I won't. Words are things that are used by human beings as verbal symbols, allowing us to conveniently communicate ideas. Words are TOOLS to be used by us, nothing more. Words are symbols. Symbols mean NOTHING by themselves, it is what they symbolize that has meaning.
Sound comes from vibration, will you agree that EVERYTHING in this universe "vibrates"? Yes or no.
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Humans are made from the earth, we contain iron, zinc,magnesium, etc. How can you say we are NOT part of the WHOLE?You miss the point. Humans are mostly made of water, i.e. water leads to our genesis. But we ALSO are totally distinct in character to the ocean, which is also made of water. Just because 2 things are made of water, does not mean they are the same or INDISTINGUISHABLE or ONE or PART OF THE WHOLE. Just the same way, we have been created by elements of this universe, but the universe is still distinct from us.
Water is made from electrons, protons, and nuetrons. Can you find me one part of creation that is not made from the very same materials?
A human being and his actions are a TOTALLY different thing than the physical universe that is at his disposal. I repeat
If a human being builds a house, he is not the house and the house is not him!
But they are BOTH made from protons, electrons, and nuetrons.
So anyway, enough of that. I am sure you will disagree and have plenty of responses consisting mostly of repeating what you said before. But, I think I should at least say some words of what I believe.
I have given a different answer above, but lets continue.
Firstly, there is a BIG distinction between this physical universe and "Allah's world," or the afterlife. It is NOT a mental universe as you once put it since no human being can imagine it
That does not make sense. I cannot imagine what you will be dreaming of tomorrow night, but that does not take away from the fact that your dreams take place in the mental world, does it?
It is totally beyond space-time restrictions of any kind. Allah through his Divine powers created the universe by saying KUN (now does this LITERALLY mean he has a mouth and a voice and SAID the Arabic word KUN??? of course not).
I agree, but the SYMBOLISM gets MEANING (as you stated above) when we find out that ALL THINGS VIBRATE, thus create sound.
The point is that Allah only has to order something and it happens. BUT once creation was started (i.e. big bang) then space-time was created and the laws of physics take hold as we know it and everything unfolds according to a model (333. Humans are then created as well. Everything in the physical world is bound by unchanging laws, and SO is the human social world. Just like in science how we learn things by trial and error, so too in the human social world we could go on trying to learn the human laws by trial and error. But Allah saved us the trouble and misery by granting us GUIDANCE in the form of the Quran. That is why the declaration of 22 is so important (and why it is RIGHT after the opening declaration) ----
Here is the book within which is no doubt, a guidance for those who wish to save themselves from life's perils.
Thank you for sharing your understanding.
(I'll take the time here to explain that LA RAIBA FIHI refers to kitaab, NOT to huda as you implied. In your "translation" you would separate the sentence this way thaalikal kitaabu la raib / feehi hudallil mutaqeen. This is totally incorrect grammar as ANYONE with any experience in Arabic knows. It's so blatant that its almost a waste of my time to explain because it shows the person hasn't taken the time to learn simple Arabic. But I'll just say, that to say thaalikal kitaabu la raib, is an incomplete sentence and totally grammatically incorrect. The sentence only makes sense if you ADD fihi to the first part. That's the beauty of the Arabic language... there's no hanging participles like in English, and no doubt how to interpret it.)
I also agree that there is guidance, without doubt, in al Kitaab. Is that not what you are saying?
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Peace be upon you Zlatan,
I guess many of us have a lot of other obligations in life beside this forum..i dont understand where do you people find the time to read and particularly to write all this stuff !?
I have a very easy job with a lot of down time, so I have no problem writing while at work (or at my comptuer at home), and I read the reading when I get up and before I go to sleep ( I try to make it dawn and dusk),and I study during the night and I ponder with all of my free day time because I want the proper understanding VERY MUCH.
Although I do recognize what you are saying, but it is not easy to know another persons situation, so it isbest just to stick to the debates and not question anothers time restrictions.
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Salam zlatan,
i did not know you still wanted that "translation." I will provide it as soon as i can.
Salam idolfree,
Do you have any Quranic evidence to back up the idea that EVERYTHING is al-kitaab? That we are kitaabs and that we will get a kitaab by living in a kitaab??
You would think the Quran would spell out clearly such a dramatic philosophy. From the verses already presnted to you, do you disagree that Al kitaab is not the same as al quraan? We need to settle this first, so lets go point by point.Bro, you can clearly see I was asking for something totally different. I dont disagree that the Quran is al-kitaab. But I do disagree that the universe is referred to in the Quran as al-kitaab. Or, as you put it, that EVERYTHING is al-kitaab.
However, "BE" and it is is part of this reading(quraan) , so I hope you address that point.
Not be, KUN. Arabic holds more depth than English. There's nothing to address since I think it is straightforward. Your inclusion of it in the argument makes little sense to me. Be, a word, the universe one word, all is kitaab. There's no logic there as far as I am concerned... only word games.
Sound comes from vibration, will you agree that EVERYTHING in this universe "vibrates"? Yes or no.
Yes sound is formed by vibration of airwaves and everything vibrates unless at absolute zero. How is that even relevant to the conversation??
Water is made from electrons, protons, and nuetrons. Can you find me one part of creation that is not made from the very same materials?
Bro, you are just proving my point. I was saying, in your words, that humans are made of the same building blocks as the ocean, yet we are not oceans and oceans are not us! We are VASTLY different things! We have free will, the oceans don't... the oceans will end, but humans will continue.
Firstly, there is a BIG distinction between this physical universe and "Allah's world," or the afterlife. It is NOT a mental universe as you once put it since no human being can imagine it.
That does not make sense. I cannot imagine what you will be dreaming of tomorrow night, but that does not take away from the fact that your dreams take place in the mental world, does it?Who is talking about dreams?? Are you saying Allah is a dream? That jannah and jahannam are dreams??
I agree, but the SYMBOLISM gets MEANING (as you stated above) when we find out that ALL THINGS VIBRATE, thus create sound.
Again, I fail to see how this is even relevant. Symbolism gets meaning by what it refers to. INCLUDING sign language, INCLUDING languages like binary code and mathematics. Symbols have meaning based on what they REFER to, not by THEMSELVES. Words are SYMBOLS that have meaning based on what they refer to. Sometimes the SAME word has different meanings based on context. And words that are different can have the same meaning! Words themselves are only TOOLS.
I also agree that there is guidance, without doubt, in al Kitaab. Is that not what you are saying?
Oh boy. Now you have ALREADY changed your previous words and changed your interpretation. Both of which are completely gramatically incorrect. No offense, but you dont seem to be very conscious of GRAMMAR. There are rules to language you know.
I am saying something totally different. I am saying here is a book WITHIN WHICH is no doubt.... a guidance for muttaqeen. NOT, here is a book / no doubt a guidance for muttaqeen and also NOT here is a book / no doubt / a guidance for muttaqeen. There Arabic would be COMPLETELY GRAMMATICALLY INCORRECT in the latter 2 versions. That is why I said Arabic is clear, unlike English there are no dangling participles. Do you even know what a dangling participle is? (If you did then my meaning should have been clear)
wassalam
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Peace be upon you Shuiab,
Please tell me what he allegory of (21104) says to you.
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Peace be upon you Shuiab,
Please tell me what the allegory of (21104) says to you.
Just want to see if we are on the "same page" wink
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Salam idolfree,
Well I was thinking about your question and it hit me like a ton of bricks, we are not on the same page.
Just out of curiosity, from my above statement... were you worried about my health? I mean come on, being hit directly by a TON of bricks.. sounds frightening doesn't it? Out of nowhere too!
But of course, you weren't worried because you knew that was a similitude to explain a point, a phrase. These are very common in languages, metaphors, similes, etc.
21104 The Day that We roll up the heavens like a scroll rolled up for books (completed),- even as We produced the first creation, so shall We produce a new one a promise We have undertaken truly shall We fulfil it.
The verse merely is describing the day that "the sky will fall." The day that this universe will end, and obviously if this universe ends that includes the skies/heavens. The skies/heavens were put there by unrolling (i.e. big bang) and will end perhaps by a big crunch or something like that.
Allah HAPPENS to use the simile of how an open scroll is rolled closed, that is how the sky will end.
wassalam
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Peace be upon you Shuaib,
I agree that the verse in question is a similitude.
NOW, the big question is, WHY do you think that a SCROLL was chosen for the similitude?