The Sin of Sodom/ Lot's People
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Greetings and Peace, all group
Salaam brother,
What is your evidence for the red part?
And to my understanding "Al3alameen" doesn't mean "worlds" but something like "the creatures/the ones who have knowledge"
thus I believe 780 can be better translayted like this780 And Lot, when he said unto his folk Will ye commit lewdness such as no creature with knowledge ever did before you?"
We have to follow the guidance of Allah not the behavior of animals. There are animals that eat their own children, so is it then ok for us humans to eat our children?
Salaam,
Bender@Bender Salaam and Greetings and Peace handshake
Science can't come up with an exact date for the destruction of the people of Lot. This is one reason why I stated "around" 1953 BCE. However, there is a range of dates--and they don't date as far back as the first proven examples of homosexuality in humans. The cave paintings are circumstantial but strong evidence; the Mesopotamian recordings are damning evidence. The people of Lot would have had to have been destroyed before 3000 BCE if they were the first human society to practice homosexuality.
http//www.aish.com/ci/sam/48931527.html
Here is a reasonable postulation (note article 4.2) that indicates 1953 BCE
http//www.johnpratt.com/items/docs/lds/meridian/2003/abraham.html
Even with the change in words of 780 (which may indeed be a better translation), there is strong evidence for homosexuality in humans before the existence of the people of Lot. It is an incredible claim if one were to say that the people of Lot were the first ones to have knowledge.
We are given brains to think, and should not disregard evidence merely because it challenges existing concepts.
Why mention animals? Because they are part of creation. If homosexuality is abominable, it sure is common!
226 GOD does not shy away from putting forth the example of a mosquito, or anything above it. As for those who believe, they know that it is the truth from their Lord. As for the rejecters, they say "What does GOD intend with this example?" He strays many by it, and He guides many by it; but He only strays by it the wicked.
Even if the people of Lot were not destroyed for homosexuality, that does not endorse homosexual acts.
The definition of homosexual is not limited to those who engage in homosexual acts--the mere attraction to the same sex suffices. If a man is sexually attracted to other men, the man that is attracted is a homosexual.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Greetings and Peace, all group
@Bender Salaam and Greetings and Peace handshake
Science can't come up with an exact date for the destruction of the people of Lot. This is one reason why I stated "around" 1953 BCE. However, there is a range of dates--and they don't date as far back as the first proven examples of homosexuality in humans. The cave paintings are circumstantial but strong evidence; the Mesopotamian recordings are damning evidence. The people of Lot would have had to have been destroyed before 3000 BCE if they were the first human society to practice homosexuality.
http//www.aish.com/ci/sam/48931527.html
Here is a reasonable postulation (note article 4.2) that indicates 1953 BCE
http//www.johnpratt.com/items/docs/lds/meridian/2003/abraham.html
Even with the change in words of 780 (which may indeed be a better translation), there is strong evidence for homosexuality in humans before the existence of the people of Lot. It is an incredible claim if one were to say that the people of Lot were the first ones to have knowledge.
Salaam and Greetings and Peace handshake
I believe you misunderstand the verse (or it's me who misunderstand it).
The people of Lot where the first people who had knowledge about the fact that their act was not good, but still they did it.
That's why Lot uses the word Al3Alameen and not AnNaas for example.
The evidence that they knew what they were doing was not correct is the next verse782 The only response of his people was "Drive them out of your town; they are a people who wish to be pure!"
Maybe before the people of Lot there were also people and animals who did this, but they had no knowledge about wether it is good or bad.
We are given brains to think, and should not disregard evidence merely because it challenges existing concepts.
I agree with you, but for me the only evidence that counts is evidence from AlQuran.
From my current understanding from the verses of Lot is that it is talking about homosexuality and that it's not a good thing to do.
BUT if you or someone else understand that it's talking about something different and that homosexuality is ok then of course to each his/her understanding and Allah is witness about our true understandings in our hearts about His revelations.Why mention animals? Because they are part of creation. If homosexuality is abominable, it sure is common!
there are a lot of things that are common nowadays and also part of the creation, does that make them right for us human beings?
226 GOD does not shy away from putting forth the example of a mosquito, or anything above it. As for those who believe, they know that it is the truth from their Lord. As for the rejecters, they say "What does GOD intend with this example?" He strays many by it, and He guides many by it; but He only strays by it the wicked.
Even if the people of Lot were not destroyed for homosexuality, that does not endorse homosexual acts.
The definition of homosexual is not limited to those who engage in homosexual acts--the mere attraction to the same sex suffices. If a man is sexually attracted to other men, the man that is attracted is a homosexual.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
Of course Allah can put every example He likes, but he didn't gave us an example for us to follow the homosexual behavior or cannibalism of animals, but he gave us the story of Lot, to ponder on it.
Salaam,
Bender -
people must consider the fact that the only rightful intimate relationship allowed would be with spouces and/or "concubine" figures under your position. 236
Thus, One must be maried in order to have an intimate relationship, or have a concubine figure in his possession. -
Greetings and Peace, all group
people must consider the fact that the only rightful intimate relationship allowed would be with spouces and/or "concubine" figures under your position. 236
Thus, One must be maried in order to have an intimate relationship, or have a concubine figure in his possession.This is also my understanding.
I just don't find evidence that the reason that the people of Lot were destroyed was homosexuality.
Many people cite the people of Lot as the reason why homosexuality is "haram." Some do this from homophobia (looking for any example that supports them, ignoring others--i.e., cherry picking), others from tradition, and some people just believe it. Those that believe it have a leg to stand on (until disproven)--the others, not so much. Evidence has been presented that makes the people-of-Lot/homosexuality link pretty darn tenuous.
The evidence that I find compelling against homosexuality regards marriage--and my understanding of what is lewd sends a "spidey signal" that homosexuality is not okay for myself (even if I weren't already married).
422-23 does not place male family members off limits for marriage. Does this then mean that a son can marry his father? Naw! rotfl
Homosexuality in AQ is similar to cannibalism; it is alluded to in a negative sense, but not outright forbidden by name.
There are places that issue same-sex marriages. It is a legal marriage (but not universally recognized). ISA, this is sufficient to count as the marriage for intimacy. Actually, I place little importance on the document--it is the commitment that should count in any marriage. What if two illiterate people wanted to marry?
Personally, I feel that ALL that government should do regarding "marriages" is issue civil unions. Anyone wanting to marry can go to nongovernment providers for a marriage. This way, government does not discriminate against LBGT, nor prefer heterosexual couples. One can't be "more equal" than another in the eyes of the law. If it is good enough for one group, it should be good enough for all groups. I believe the principles of justice and fairness to be established firmly in the Deen. No compulsion, for instance.
Far be it from me to interfere in other people's private matters; it is between them and the Creator of all.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Homosexuality in AQ is similar to cannibalism; it is alluded to in a negative sense, but not outright forbidden by name.
Nice analogy, and somehow make sense..
If a human wanted to eat the meat from another human dead corpses (from the grave)
Then it's a 'gross' act (for my taste)..
But what is definitely 'evil' is when a human killed/murder another human being for his/her meat...Thus
If a human male love to stick his P in another male A and both are 'fine' by it..
Then it's a 'gross' act (for my taste)..
But what is definitely 'evil' is when a human male rape another human male or female...The case for "Sodom" is perhaps a city full or rapist (which happened to be homesexual) and highway robbers...
The "Somalian pirates" of ancient times...
Make sense to wipe them off the map.. for the common good of others..Salam / Peace
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Okay but why would a person who is gay want to disobey God by being who they are? It's not like it's a choice, it's not like same sex love and relationships hurts anybody. The sin of Sodom, the sexual one, seems to be related to rape. Even in the Bible it describes it so.
It says the people of Sodom gathered outside Lot's house and asked to send the angels out so they may have sexual intercourse. It was a mob wanting to rape the angels. Also, it says Lot's sons-in-law engaged to his daughters to wed were in the crowd. I can give the verses if you like.
It further says the men of the town tried to break down the door and the angels blinded them. Definitely implies gang violence, not homosexual love.
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Greetings and Peace, all group
Okay but why would a person who is gay want to disobey God by being who they are? It's not like it's a choice, it's not like same sex love and relationships hurts anybody. The sin of Sodom, the sexual one, seems to be related to rape. Even in the Bible it describes it so.
It says the people of Sodom gathered outside Lot's house and asked to send the angels out so they may have sexual intercourse. It was a mob wanting to rape the angels. Also, it says Lot's sons-in-law engaged to his daughters to wed were in the crowd. I can give the verses if you like.
It further says the men of the town tried to break down the door and the angels blinded them. Definitely implies gang violence, not homosexual love.
The incident in the Bible is not confirmed in AQ. Some believe the narration of the Bible, others do not. The people of Lot had several things to answer for.
2929 "You sexually approach men, and you commit highway robbery, and you bring all vice to your society." But the only response from his people was to say "Bring us the retribution of GOD, if you are being truthful!"
I can't say that I feel that being homosexual is wrong. A person doesn't choose their feelings or attractions, but is surely responsible for acts and actions done with knowledge or lack of care.
A person can make choices regarding their actions. A married person usually has opportunities to cheat on their spouse. Should a person in such a position do what is easy and pleasurable? <totally rhetorical question> It is often necessary to practice self denial in order to live an ethical life.
2214 Or did you expect that you would enter the Paradise, while the example of those who were before you came to you; they were stricken with adversity and hardship, and they were shaken until the messenger and those who believed with him said "When is the victory of GOD?" Yes indeed, the victory of GOD is near.
AQ is specific where it needs to be...and thought to be complete by those who follow its Guidance. ALLAH did not run out of words. Homosexual acts are not outright banned for a reason; they are an individual judgement call.
ISA, nobody will be tasked beyond individual capacity. The part about no compulsion in the Deen is important. Most everybody prizes autonomy when it applies to self.
2286 GOD does not burden a soul except with what it can bear. For it is what it earns, and against it is what it earns. "Our Lord, do not mind us if we forget or make mistakes; our Lord, do not place a burden upon us as You have placed upon those before us; our Lord, do not place upon us what we cannot bear; pardon us, and forgive us, and have mercy on us; You are our patron, so grant us victory over the disbelieving people."
May the Lord bless you and keep you.
May the Lord make his face to shine upon you, and be gracious to you.
May the Lord lift up his countenance upon you, and give you peace.peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Greetings and Peace, all group
I can't say that I feel that being homosexual is wrong. A person doesn't choose their feelings or attractions, but is surely responsible for acts and actions done with knowledge or lack of care.
AQ is specific where it needs to be...and thought to be complete by those who follow its Guidance. ALLAH did not run out of words. Homosexual acts are not outright banned for a reason; they are an individual judgement call.
If it's only male rape that GOD is against and not homosexuality then where in these verses does it say rape or trying to rape?
780 And Lot, when he said to his people
"Do you commit lewdness to an extend
that none in the worlds had surpassed
you?"
781 "You come to men with desire instead of
women; you are a transgressing people."
782 The only response of his people was,
"Drive them out of your town; they are a
people who wish to be pure!"
783 We saved him and his family, except for
his wife; she was of those who lagged
behind.
784 We showered them with a shower, so see
what the punishment for the criminals
was.2754 And Lot, when he said to his people
"Are you committing lewdness while
you can clearly see?"
2755 "You are approaching the men out of lust
instead of the women!No, you are an
ignorant people!"
2928 And Lot, when he said to his people
"You commit a lewdness that no others
in the world have done before!"
2929 "You sexually approach men, you
commit highway robbery, and you bring
all vice to your society." But the only
response from his people was to say,
"Bring us God's retribution, if you are
being truthful!"Also those verses do not say anything about the angels/messengers that the people of Lot did try to rape until the following verses;
2930 He said, "My Lord, grant me victory
over the wicked people."
2931 When Our messengers came to Abraham
with good news, they then said, "We are
to destroy the people of such a town, for
its people have been wicked."
2932 He said, "But Lot is in it!" They said,
"We are fully aware of who is in it. We
will save him and his family, except his
wife; she is of those doomed."Also if GOD is only against male rape and not homosexuality then why does the above verses say that GOD had sent angels/messengers to Abraham about the destruction of Lots people even before they even they got there before anyone could try and rape them?
Meaning that GOD was already going to destroy the people of Lot before the messengers he sent even got there to warn Lot.Some of the actuall verses that give any indication of male rape are below;
2933 Thus when Our messengers came to Lot,
they were mistreated, and he was
embarrassed towards them. They said,
"Do not fear, and do not be saddened.
We will save you and your family,
except for your wife; she is of those
doomed."1177 When Our messengers came to Lot, he
was grieved on their account and he
felt discomfort for them and said, "This
is a distressful day."
1178 His people came rushing towards him,
and were accustomed to committing
sin. He said, "My people, these are my
daughters, they are purer for you, so be
aware of God and do not disgrace me
regarding my guests. Is there no
reasonable man among you?"
1179 They said, "You know we have no
interest in your daughters, and you are
aware of what we want!"
1180 He said, "If only I had strength against
you, or I could find for myself some
powerful support."
1181 They said, "O Lot, we are your Lord's
messengers; they will not be able to
harm you. So travel with your family
during the cover of the night and let
not any of you look back except for
your wife; she will be afflicted with
what they will be afflicted. Their
appointed time will be the morning. Is
the morning not near?"
1182 So when Our command came, We
turned it upside down, and We rained
on it with hardened fiery projectiles.
1183 Marked from your Lord, and they are
never far from the wicked.If GOD is only against male rape and not homosexuality then why does GOD tell us in the Quran of all the WOMEN that the believing MEN are allowed to marry and nothing about allowing believing men to marry other men or believing women being allowed to marrying other women?
If GOD is against sexual intercourse for men with women outside marriage then why would GOD be happy about homosexual intercourse outside marriage?
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Greetings and Peace, all group
My comments within quote in red.
If it's only male rape that GOD is against and not homosexuality then where in these verses does it say rape or trying to rape?
780 And Lot, when he said to his people
"Do you commit lewdness to an extend
that none in the worlds had surpassed
you?"
781 "You come to men with desire instead of
women; you are a transgressing people."
782 The only response of his people was,
"Drive them out of your town; they are a
people who wish to be pure!"
783 We saved him and his family, except for
his wife; she was of those who lagged
behind.
784 We showered them with a shower, so see
what the punishment for the criminals
was.In 781, coming to men with desire is an ACTION--not an unacted on feeling/attraction.
2754 And Lot, when he said to his people
"Are you committing lewdness while
you can clearly see?"
2755 "You are approaching the men out of lust
instead of the women!No, you are an
ignorant people!"
2928 And Lot, when he said to his people
"You commit a lewdness that no others
in the world have done before!"
2929 "You sexually approach men, you
commit highway robbery, and you bring
all vice to your society." But the only
response from his people was to say,
"Bring us God's retribution, if you are
being truthful!"2755 also refers to an action. Please note the multiple transgressions in 2929--the transgressions are not limited to sexually approaching men.
Also those verses do not say anything about the angels/messengers that the people of Lot did try to rape until the following verses;
2930 He said, "My Lord, grant me victory
over the wicked people."
2931 When Our messengers came to Abraham
with good news, they then said, "We are
to destroy the people of such a town, for
its people have been wicked."
2932 He said, "But Lot is in it!" They said,
"We are fully aware of who is in it. We
will save him and his family, except his
wife; she is of those doomed."Also if GOD is only against male rape and not homosexuality then why does the above verses say that GOD had sent angels/messengers to Abraham about the destruction of Lots people even before they even they got there before anyone could try and rape them?
Meaning that GOD was already going to destroy the people of Lot before the messengers he sent even got there to warn Lot.Note that Lot's wife, a woman, is included among the people. It is quite a stretch to claim that the women and children were homosexuals!
Some of the actuall verses that give any indication of male rape are below;
2933 Thus when Our messengers came to Lot,
they were mistreated, and he was
embarrassed towards them. They said,
"Do not fear, and do not be saddened.
We will save you and your family,
except for your wife; she is of those
doomed."This may be a valid implication of sexual violence.
However Why were the women and children destroyed? Collateral damage? <I don't think so!> If they were "collateral damage", it MUST be okay for people to attack targets without regard to collateral damage, as shown by the example of the people of Lot!
6164 Say "Shall I seek other than GOD as a Lord when He is the Lord of everything?" And every soul earns what is for it, and none will carry the burden of another. Then to your Lord is your return and He will inform you of what you disputed in.
1177 When Our messengers came to Lot, he
was grieved on their account and he
felt discomfort for them and said, "This
is a distressful day."
1178 His people came rushing towards him,
and were accustomed to committing
sin. He said, "My people, these are my
daughters, they are purer for you, so be
aware of God and do not disgrace me
regarding my guests. Is there no
reasonable man among you?"
1179 They said, "You know we have no
interest in your daughters, and you are
aware of what we want!"
1180 He said, "If only I had strength against
you, or I could find for myself some
powerful support."
1181 They said, "O Lot, we are your Lord's
messengers; they will not be able to
harm you. So travel with your family
during the cover of the night and let
not any of you look back except for
your wife; she will be afflicted with
what they will be afflicted. Their
appointed time will be the morning. Is
the morning not near?"
1182 So when Our command came, We
turned it upside down, and We rained
on it with hardened fiery projectiles.
1183 Marked from your Lord, and they are
never far from the wicked.If GOD is only against male rape and not homosexuality then why does GOD tell us in the Quran of all the WOMEN that the believing MEN are allowed to marry and nothing about allowing believing men to marry other men or believing women being allowed to marrying other women?
2221 And do not marry the female polytheists until they believe. For a believing female servant is better than a polytheist even if she attracts you. And do not marry the male polytheists until they believe. For a believing male servant is better than a polytheist even if he attracts you. Those invite to the Fire, while God is inviting to the Paradise and forgiveness by His consent. He clarifies His revelations for the people that they may remember.
If GOD is against sexual intercourse for men with women outside marriage then why would GOD be happy about homosexual intercourse outside marriage?
Far be it from me to claim to know what ALLAH knows! Strictly speaking, homosexual acts are not sex--they can't result in offspring. Also, there are same-sex marriages these days.
Definition of homosexual of, relating to, or characterized by a tendency to direct sexual desire toward individuals of one's own sex?http//www.merriam-webster.com/medical/homosexual
A person need not act on their desires to be a homosexual. This is why homosexuals who do undertake homosexual acts are different from homosexuals who engage in homosexual acts.
4817 There is no burden on the blind, nor is there any burden on the cripple, nor is there any burden on the sick. And whoever obeys GOD and His messenger, He will admit them into gardens with rivers flowing beneath them; and whoever turns away, He will punish him with a painful retribution.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Yeah Abdul I kinda see what you mean, and that's besides the verse that says they go unto men instead of their wives. Wouldn't that imply adultery?
Like I've said the Bible says Lot's sons in law were two of the men in the crowd wanting to rape his guests. It says they were engaged to be married to his daughters. Clearly they weren't gay. What the story describes is gang violence.
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Greetings and Peace, all group
Yeah Abdul I kinda see what you mean, and that's besides the verse that says they go unto men instead of their wives. Wouldn't that imply adultery?
Like I've said the Bible says Lot's sons in law were two of the men in the crowd wanting to rape his guests. It says they were engaged to be married to his daughters. Clearly they weren't gay. What the story describes is gang violence.
There is such a thing as bisexuality. Many of the homosexuals that I know of are (or were) bisexual--many of them are now married (in one case to each other).
If one were married and had sexual relations with other than one's spouse, it would be adultery.
1732 And do not come near adultery, for it is lewdness and an evil path.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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In 781, coming to men with desire is an ACTION--not an unacted on feeling/attraction.
2755 also refers to an action.
Comming to men with with desire is an action that DOES NOT always mean rape.
Please note the multiple transgressions in 2929--the transgressions are not limited to sexually approaching men.
Whilst sexually approaching may not have been the only sin, it was definately one of the sins
Note that Lot's wife, a woman, is included among the people. It is quite a stretch to claim that the women and children were homosexuals!
It's also quite a strech to claim that it was only about male rape, since Lot's wife, a women was among the people. Was she, the other and children all male rapists too?.
However Why were the women and children destroyed? Collateral damage? <I don't think so!> If they were "collateral damage", it MUST be okay for people to attack targets without regard to collateral damage, as shown by the example of the people of Lot!
Good question, why were the women and children destroyed becuase of a few male rapists?. I spose it MUST also be okay to kill all women and children all becuase a few men tried to rape other men.
6164 Say "Shall I seek other than GOD as a Lord when He is the Lord of everything?" And every soul earns what is for it, and none will carry the burden of another. Then to your Lord is your return and He will inform you of what you disputed in
I agree with this verse. So why then why would a just GOD (which GOD is) destroy a whole city (of Lots people) all be a few people in it wanted to rape the messengers/angel that came to his house?.
2221 And do not marry the female polytheists until they believe. For a believing female servant is better than a polytheist even if she attracts you. And do not marry the male polytheists until they believe. For a believing male servant is better than a polytheist even if he attracts you. Those invite to the Fire, while God is inviting to the Paradise and forgiveness by His consent. He clarifies His revelations for the people that they may remember.[/color
The part in bold is talking about who the believing women and not the men are allowed to marry. But then using your logic the part of that verse which says
2221 And do not marry the female polytheists until they believe. For a believing female servant is better than a polytheist even if she attracts you. This must also be talking about who the believing woman and not men can marry does it?.Also, there are same-sex marriages these days.
Just because there are same sex marriages these days does not mean that GOD agrees with them.
This is why homosexuals who do undertake homosexual acts are different from homosexuals who engage in homosexual acts.
I think you mean "who do not undertake homosexual acts", because if not then there is no difference between the two.
Far be it from me to claim to know what ALLAH knows!
Well the quran (GOD'S word) is telling us want he wants us to know, like sexual intercourse (gay or straight) outside marriage is wrong.
A person need not act on their desires to be a homosexual
True and GOD does not say the desire itself is sinful, just the act.
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Greetings and Peace, all group
@george -[ Yep, that was a typo. Thanks for correcting it.
Forgive me if I sound defensive, but I never claimed that the people of Lot were destroyed for rape or homosexual acts or any one transgression.
It could be that the women and children among the people of Lot benefited from robbery/piracy/vice and were Judged as being guilty--but ultimately this is conjecture.
The fact that there are same-sex marriages does not mean that we can say with certainty if ALLAH counts them as marriage or not.
In AQ 2221 there is no shift in audience. Where else does such a shift occur in AQ? In the few places where females/women are specifically addressed apart from men, they are specially identified. Example
3330 O women of the prophet, if any of you commits evident lewdness, then her retribution will be doubled. This is easy for GOD to do.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Doesn't the Koran suggest in places that masturbation and sex acts outside marriage may be permissible? Like the Koran says something about what their right hands possess, which sometimes gets interpreted as concubines or something, but I've always thought about what the right hand could "possess", if you catch my drift.
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Greetings and Peace, all group
Doesn't the Koran suggest in places that masturbation and sex acts outside marriage may be permissible? Like the Koran says something about what their right hands possess, which sometimes gets interpreted as concubines or something, but I've always thought about what the right hand could "possess", if you catch my drift.
No, AQ states that if one can't marry a free believer, then one should marry a believer that is not free. This sort of begs the question "What is real marriage?" hmm
Masturbation is not addressed, except perhaps in the Guidance about abstaining from lewdness.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Okay I'm gonna come out with the real question playing on my mind. Thanks for the responses guys. I'm gay, and it's how I am, it's an attraction, and I need to ask.
Can I be gay and Muslim? Is it wrong? Does God forbid it?
A Sunni told me I have no place in Allah's creation and should be killed.
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Okay I'm gonna come out with the real question playing on my mind. Thanks for the responses guys. I'm gay, and it's how I am, it's an attraction, and I need to ask.
Can I be gay and Muslim? Is it wrong? Does God forbid it?
A Sunni told me I have no place in Allah's creation and should be killed.
Being gay or not is not a criteria of faith or charcter. When you talk about faith you must look at how the Koran understand the criteria of faith. The Koran established faith in God and the hereafter as the criteria for faith. It then established righteous deeds like salat, zakat, feeding of the poor, honesty, forgiveness etc as rghteous acts. Those who have faith and are righteous go to heaven.
Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.
2.111-112 And they say "None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian." Those are their (vain) desires. Say "Produce your proof if ye are truthful." Nay,-whoever submits His whole self to Allah and is a doer of good,- He will get his reward with his Lord; on such shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve
Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and the Sabians and the Christians whoever believes in Allah and the last day and does good-- they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve
Anyone who works righteousness, male or female, while believing, we will surely grant them a happy life in this world, and we will surely pay them their full recompense (on the Day of Judgment) for their righteous works
So the Koran does not care what religious community you come from, whether Muslim, Jewish or Christian. What it cares about is faith in God and the hereafter.
This then leaves us with the issue of whether being homosexual goes against righteousness. However homosexuality is one issue a person can have, it says nothing whether he is a believer or a person of good character. One sin or one lifestyle issue does not dominate the scale on day of Judgement. So even if we say homosexuality is a sin, it can not be a grave sin. A person can be a homsexual and he is a disbeliever, rude, arrogant, stingy and vengeful and a person can be a homosexual and faithfull, kind, generous and God fearing.
So saying a person who is gay can not be a Muslim is impossible unless you are either saying that being gay means you can not believe in God and the hereafter or being gay means you have an evil character. There is no proof of that.
I think for Koranist the issue is whether homosexuality is a sin or not. It may not be the sin that will lead to hell fire but there are many such sins like occasional lying, or occasional stealing that also do not lead to hell fire.
The issue that lead to hell fire in the Koran are polytheism, stinginess especially towards the needy, injustice, denying truth, creating conflicts between people, arrogant, murder, lying while swearing by God, and adultery. These sins are specifically mentioned in the Koran as the chartacter of the poeple of hell. Only repentance from them can prevent retribution on Judgement day.
It is far worse to be stingy towards the needy than to be gay.
Right hand possess (Ma Malakat Aymanukum) in a concubine which in the Bible means a relationship established by oath only and without dowry or engagement. Hagar was a concubine. A concubine in Biblical sense has the same rights as a wife, except she has nop financial protection as a wife does since no dowry was paid.
Among the Israelites, men commonly acknowledged their concubines, and such women enjoyed the same rights in the house as legitimate wives. The principal difference in the Bible between a wife and a concubine is that wives had dowries, while concubines did not.
The concubine may have commanded the same respect and inviolability as the wife. The Hebrew word used in the Levitical rules on sexual relations, which is commonly translated as "wife", is distinct from the Hebrew word that means "concubine". (However, on at least one other occasion it is used to refer a woman who is not a wife - specifically, the handmaid of Jacob's wife.) In the Levitical code, sexual intercourse between a man and a wife of a different man was forbidden and punishable by death for both persons involved. The Bible notes several incidents of intercourse between a man and another man's concubine, and none of them result in capital punishment for either party, although the man to whom the concubine belonged was dishonored by such a relationship. For instance, David is portrayed as having been dishonoured when his concubines had a sexual relationship with his son Absalom. However, this instance is as likely dishonoring to David because it involves a form of incest, as David's concubines would have been somewhat like step-mothers to David's children.
Since it was regarded as the highest blessing to have many children, legitimate wives often gave their maids to their husbands to atone, at least in part, if they were barren, as in the cases of Sarah and Hagar, Rachel and Bilhah. The children of the concubine had equal rights with those of the legitimate wife; for example, King Abimelech was the son of Gideon and his concubine. Later biblical figures such as Gideon, David, and Solomon had concubines in addition to many childbearing wives. For example, the Books of Kings says that Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines.
In Judaism
In Judaism, concubines are referred to by the Hebrew term pilegesh. The term is a non-Hebrew, non-Semitic loanword deriving from the Greek word pallakis, Greek , meaning a mistress staying in house. Or the Aramaic phrase palga isha, meaning half-wife.
According to the Babylonian Talmud, the difference between a concubine and a full wife was that the latter received a marriage contract (Hebrewketubah) and her marriage (nissu'in) was preceded by a formal betrothal (erusin), neither being the case for a concubine. But, one opinion in the Jerusalem Talmud argues that the concubine should also receive a marriage contract, but without including a clause specifying a divorce settlement.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ConcubinageSunnis and Shias believe a MMA is a slave who a Muslim can have sex with whenever he feels. They believe that a female prsioner of war can be sold as a slave and that the person who owns her can have sex with her. This is clear cut rape and nothing else. These are the kinds of thigs that can get you into hell and not homsexuality.
So you can tell this Sunni friends of yours who said a gay can not be a Muslim, why is raping female prsioners Islam while two male adults having sex by their free will is not Islam. The issue that differentiate the two situations is freedom. I don't know about you but I would rather face God as a homosexual than a slave trader and a rapist and abuser of female prisoners.
(Pharaoh) said "Did we not cherish thee as a child among us, and didst thou not stay in our midst many years of thy life? "And thou didst a deed of thine which (thou knowest) thou didst, and thou art an ungrateful (wretch)!" Moses said "I did it then, when I was in error. "So I fled from you (all) when I feared you; but my Lord has (since) invested me with judgment (and wisdom) and appointed me as one of the messengers. "And this is the favour with which thou dost reproach me,- that thou hast enslaved the Children of Israel!" [Qur'an 2618-22
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I do not believe in this division beteween homo, hetero, bi... It is a labelling assuming certain thins which are not proved and without going into depth as to what conditions one thing or the other, even promiscuity...
Sex mostly is in the mind, and the mind is conditioned by many emotional events. I think we are being cheated out of finding out more about human character and behaivour thnak to the very expeditive procedure of labelling a, b, c... Many persons can feel inclined to many things, sexually too, and that doesn't force them into any pattern, except that they decide or assume that they should fit some pattern.
Salaam
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Well its not so easy for me to deny the distinction when its about my attraction. I cannot really flick a light switch on and decide to like women.
Anyhow, that's what I do now, as a Christian @bigmo. I try to follow what Jesus taught through love, charity, kindness, etc. I feel like Christianity is where I belong right now, unless something changes.
I can only do what I feel like God wants me to do. I know that before I embraced Christianity and also started practicing some in my Jewish background, I was in severe idolotry. I was believing Pantheism, which means I basically made God myself.
I had to repent of that, I really did.
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There is a reason for everything, just that and why is the most human question that exists. It seems that putting a name or a label to anything ends the questions and the whys... Fine with me, whoever wants to do that. For me the question does not end there.
Salaam