Why is it that this forum has failed to project brotherhood and good vibes ?
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I'm glad for this forum. Its giving me new insights into Islam. Islam isn't the religion I was led to believe. I still have questions though.
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It is not whst we have or not have or know or not know, but what we make of it. And in that each person is each person. there are good feelings here and bad feelings too. Just as we are likely to find in any collection.
In person we would nto be as dry, we might turn out to be zquite seet and enjoyable, but on forums, when this are polemic whst shows is the part of us which is polemic.
On the other hand I find a bit elusive to attempt to draw a neat line which quranists or whatever on one side of it and neatly hadithists or traditionalists, or whstever on the other. I hsve found self denominatged quranists who can be as bigotted as any hadithists, and supposed hadithists quite amenable and not at all opinionated and spiritual in the quranic sense.
We shoudl see the Qur'an as a light as nto as an ideology Ideologies may be good and necessary, even quranists ideologies, but not too much of it, because idologies tend to be a good breeding ground for partiality.
At any rate wht Farida has pinted out is very mcuh to the point a agood question to ponder under whatever circumstances.
Salaam
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People tend to mix up things and also generalize. It's very easy to do, and we all do it to different degrees in different situations.
One thing which I think is very important to realise is that things are not back and white... "bundled". Like it was mentioned... people can be "koranist" and still behave in arrogant and surprising ways, while sunnis (e.g.) may act very open-mindedly. Of course!! How can we generalize like that!? Whether koranist or sunni or whatever, this label will not tell anything about how humble or "good" they are.
People's open-mindedness to unorthodox ideas about religion doesn't say anything about their emotional maturity. People can be open-minded or mature in some areas, and very stuck up in others.
People are people and there are virtually unlimited mental variables... and those variables are not so linked and dependent as we wish to believe. We cannot figure out people fully. People are too complex.
Mental and emotional maturity takes time to develop, and often it requires outside feedback, and it is never easy when you always have to grapple with your Ego.... it hurts to cut away pride. So obviously one will find "koranists" that are anything from quite arrogant to very humble... just like one will find biologists or receptionists that are too.
One must be very careful not to think of oneself as better that others. Only Allah knows. So "koranists" are not better than e.g. shias.... BUT perhaps they are superior in thinking clearly when it comes to not following religious dogma. Arrogance is very dangerous.
I find this forum a wonderful place to learn. There are so many people with great insights and knowledge and theories that is wonderful to read. I love it!
I also see alot of useless ego-emotional back-and-forth, defensive, subjective, nonsense debates here also. Sometimes people indulge in name calling and refusal to understand the other part... they lose touch with objectivity and go full force into the dead-end of blind ego-subjectivity.
Allah can provide us with people to connect with... and some people you will connect with on one level and with others on some other level. Mankind is designed not to be homogenous. We are all unique!!
Peace all
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Salaam everyone,
I have been a member here for a few years and read regularly what's posted here, and some members have made great contributions whereas others are only busy with bickering about sunni shia and mainstream Muslims but on the whole there is no feeling of a Ummah here.
I do not believe in collecting ahadith to explain to non muslims what is wrong with mainstream Islam. Instead I say my understanding of Islam is only based on the Qur'an and, rather than throwing mud on others, I try to live by it and try to give a good example of what is Islam and I hope I have left some good example for others to follow.
Only the other day we were served by a young man in a shop, and his humbleness and manners and drew us to him though we did not talk more then jazaklallh khair. His gentle vibes made me question why I never feel connected with many on this forum despite all of us agreeing to follow Qur'an only.
I want you to ask one question why is it that this forum has failed to project brotherhood and good vibes and why do I and many others feel more connected to the likes of the one in the shop who, for all I know, may be following hadith?
PeacePeace.
I think it's a few things. For one, interacting in the flesh enables much richer, denser communication than text-and-smilies forum posting.
Then there's this forum and its "vibe". I think this site harbors more than a few very opinionated people who don't seem to quite "get it", and who aggressively promote ideas that are unfounded or incorrect in one way or another. This spreads bad vibes.
As I understand it, the actual Ummah is populated by the worthy exclusively, and that kind of worth is determined by God, not by who posts on some internet message board. This doesn't mean this site is useless, it just means that you as a reader need to figure out which posts to consider and which to ignore. After all, there are great treasures of wisdom and truth among all the madness here!God willing, may you have more Ummah in your life.
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Making allegations is also wrong - don't you agree? Non-muslims have a misunderstanding of 'islam' and helping, especially those who have turned away/off, to understand history, koran, hadiths, etc is not throwing mud on others as you allege.
Salaam
If you really care to show the Non-muslims what is true Islam then come together on this forum and focus on discussing the Qur'an's teachings, and with humbleness promote tolerance. This way we can set a living example for Non-muslims to see for themselves what Islam is all about.
How many times, impressed by discussions here, have I wanted to promote this site to friends, and acquaintances, but then refrained as I see some member continuously demonising Sunni and Shia etc., which can often put people off, leaving all the good work overshadowed by bickering.
We need to make ourselves examples, for others to follow, rather than judge them. Despite having diverse views we can make this forum an example to the rest of the world, and leave hate mongering to the media scoundrels.
Peace -
Only the other day we were served by a young man in a shop, and his humbleness and manners and drew us to him though we did not talk more then jazaklallh khair. His gentle vibes made me question why I never feel connected with many on this forum despite all of us agreeing to follow Qur'an only.
I want you to ask one question why is it that this forum has failed to project brotherhood and good vibes and why do I and many others feel more connected to the likes of the one in the shop who, for all I know, may be following hadith?
PeaceYou just learn another great lesson... in your life...
Another small step away from sectarianism..It doesn't matter what 'faith' one has in order to be connected to others...
I too feel more connected to those 'who follow hadith'.. than anyone on this forum..
Given..
My own parent follow hadiths...Next step for you is perhaps, you'll stop viewing and labeling people as 'muslim' and 'non muslim'..
Salam / Peace
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agree with zulf that we are mixing up things. are we talking about belief system or people's behavior/attitude? actually, nicest persons i have met are atheists or spiritual but not religious (meaning not believing in scriptures).
@farida. this forum is not comprised of those who follow quran only with the purpose of showing something. we have people from various background here. and when you have discussions especially about religion, well you are going to get various opinions, views. some having an emotional approach, some having intellectual. at times, things can get pretty heated hitting a nerve with various reactions. this is the nature of discussions/debate. as one political figure said, if you can't stand the heat then get out of the kitchen.
about the ummah. you cannot expect people with fundamental differences in belief system to have an ummah. shias have their own belief system. sunnis have theirs. non-hadith followers don't believe what shias and sunnis believe. it is not like we all believe in the same thing but differ in practices and rituals and such.
also, you can't go all ballistic on people for saying anything about a group or community. most of my family members are sunni - following traditions and hadiths. so was i in a previous life. i was talking to my dear uncle the other day, where i pointed out something in the koran and his response was how he follows the tradition of his forefathers. my other uncle will go on for hours lecturing you about hadiths. so am i slinging mud on my own family members by talking about their belief and ways of life? no, just talking about differences in beliefs.
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You just learn another great lesson... in your life...
Another small step away from sectarianism..It doesn't matter what 'faith' one has in order to be connected to others...
I too feel more connected to those 'who follow hadith'.. than anyone on this forum..
Given..
My own parent follow hadiths...Next step for you is perhaps, you'll stop viewing and labeling people as 'muslim' and 'non muslim'..
Salam / Peace
21;12 Yes , whoever submits his face in Islam to Allah while being a doer of good will have his reward with his Lord. And no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve.
Alhumdulliah almost every day I learn something, be it great or not, but I do not think that we have to stop calling people by the name they associate with, as Allah in the Qur'an calls Jews and Christains by their name. If you care to check you will note I refer to mainstream Musllim by their name using capital M whereas for non-muslim I don't use captions.
I am glad you admitted that you feel connected to your hadith parents, despite having different ideology, as sister Huruf pointed out that too much emphisis on ideology tend to be a good breeding ground for partiality.
Sunni callling Qur'an alone followers kafir or Koranist calling Sunni misguided, despite both following the same book is similar to this
2113 The Jews say "The Christians have nothing to stand on," and the Christians say, "The Jews have nothing to stand on," although they recite the Scripture. Thus the polytheists speak the same as their words. But Allah will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection concerning that over which they used to differ
Salaam -
Sunni callling Qur'an alone followers kafir or Koranist calling Sunni misguided, despite both following the same book is similar to this
It is not accurate to say that Sunni, Shia (the two major groups) follow Koran. Both of these groups follow their own set of hadiths having laws, rules and practices based not on the Koran but in large part on the hadiths. Stoning to death for adultery is one such example.
Per God (not per men), sunnis, shias are "misguided" as they have taken to another source besides the Koran idolizing prophet muhamed. seems like satan has done a splendid job of leading people astray. @farida. it is what it is. call it for what it is.
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It is not accurate to say that Sunni, Shia (the two major groups) follow Koran. Both of these groups follow their own set of hadiths having laws, rules and practices based not on the Koran but in large part on the hadiths. Stoning to death for adultery is one such example.
They follow their own set of hadiths, alongside the Quran, according to their own concept of what is the right path. I will debate with them only when they try to make me follow their ways. Other than that I still have lot to concentrate on, like correcting myself and my family.
As per God (not per men), sunnis, shias are "misguided" as they have taken to another source besides the Koran idolizing prophet muhamed. seems like satan has done a splendid job of leading people astray. @farida. it is what it is. call it for what it is.
358 Is he, then, to whom the evil of his conduct is made alluring, so that he looks upon it as good, ? For Allah leaves to stray whom He wills, and guides whom He wills. So let not thy soul go out in (vainly) sighing after them for Allah knows well all that they do!
Salaam
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Peace farida, and thanks for posting this. I think these are the kinds of discussions that we need to have more of on this forum.
-Joel
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358 Is he, then, to whom the evil of his conduct is made alluring, so that he looks upon it as good, ? For Allah leaves to stray whom He wills, and guides whom He wills. So let not thy soul go out in (vainly) sighing after them for Allah knows well all that they do!
the verse that you mention is referring to people who commit evil acts. and God is saying don't waste yourself with grief for them. ok - we are not talking about 'evil' acts here. we are talking about belief system. understanding the fundamental differences and what people's beliefs are based on.
let's take christian beliefs for instance. per koran, people who worship jesus as son of God are a 'misguided' people. when you have people who take away the focus away from God and God's guidance (the Koran), then these people have been misguided. it is what it is.
there is the 'right path' as laid out by God. and then you have multitude of groups claiming that their 'path' is the right one. salvation can only be through jesus. you can only understand the koran through hadiths. and so on.
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Peace justamuslim,
I don't think that farida would disagree with the content of what you are saying. I think she is talking about the lack of community here and that we are losing a means of persuading those not rightly guided by acting the way we do towards one another and those who disagree with our positions. Not only should we make convincing arguments (in terms of using logos, ethos, and pathos), but our manner of life with one another and those who disagree should also be a strong means of convincing those who disagree and who are unsure.
-Joel
the verse that you mention is referring to people who commit evil acts. and God is saying don't waste yourself with grief for them. ok - we are not talking about 'evil' acts here. we are talking about belief system. understanding the fundamental differences and what people's beliefs are based on.
let's take christian beliefs for instance. per koran, people who worship jesus as son of God are a 'misguided' people. when you have people who take away the focus away from God and God's guidance (the Koran), then these people have been misguided. it is what it is.
there is the 'right path' as laid out by God. and then you have multitude of groups claiming that their 'path' is the right one. salvation can only be through jesus. you can only understand the koran through hadiths. and so on.
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Maybe that might be true on some instances, but This form is definitely open minded.
Thanks to God Almighty to have a place like this were discussions can be opened.Recommended Articles
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i visit this website to read articles. and the forum, time to time posting now and then. sometimes helps that i am not all alone and that there are others like me out there. even before the era of internet, i knew that i could not possibly the only one. i am not alone.
when my spirits are down, members on the forum have really lifted me up more than they can possibly imagine with their postings. when my mind is heavy and troubled, i tend to come to this website.
at times i have started threads. Mostly i read various threads, different view points. i learn a lot and a lot of times get a different perspective. i understand that in course of discussion, emotions can flare. some people are polished, restrained. some are very brutally honest, not holding back. there are those who think and then there are those who say it. hurling insults, attacking each other, getting all emotional - that's just nature of discussion/debate. at least, no one here has called other persons mama names - not that i know off.
all in all, i think that this is a good place and i do think it has a good vibe - mostly.
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21;12 Yes , whoever submits his face in Islam to Allah while being a doer of good will have his reward with his Lord. And no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve.
Alhumdulliah almost every day I learn something, be it great or not, but I do not think that we have to stop calling people by the name they associate with, as Allah in the Qur'an calls Jews and Christains by their name. If you care to check you will note I refer to mainstream Musllim by their name using capital M whereas for non-muslim I don't use captions.
Every jews, christians, Muslim (tm) (and other label) is different and both heaven and hell will be filled with both of them... Good and bad is just everywhere.. good people are just good people no matter how they're being labelled and bad people are just bad people no matter how they're being labelled.
I am glad you admitted that you feel connected to your hadith parents, despite having different ideology, as sister Huruf pointed out that too much emphisis on ideology tend to be a good breeding ground for partiality.
Sunni callling Qur'an alone followers kafir or Koranist calling Sunni misguided, despite both following the same book
is similar to thisThe sunnis call everyone except themselves as kafirs... that's why they're being 'misguided'.. ))
It's being ignited by the Sunnis 'imam/habibs/clerics/ulema'. And their (blind) follower just go along with what their 'shepherd' told them to do.. hate anyone who are not among themselves..The reason for that is obvious, the Quranist (and also the shiites and the ahmadi and countless of other 'islamic' sect) are considered as a 'threat' to their hegemony... which might have a huge impact on their $$$, power and influence..
Salam / Peace
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The reason for that is obvious, the Quranist (and also the shiites and the ahmadi and countless of other 'islamic' sect) are considered as a 'threat' to their hegemony... which might have a huge impact on their $$$, power and influence..
Salam / Peace
perhaps but also people truly believe in what they believe and it is their truths. per sunni's, those who follow only the koran are the misguided ones. at least they all agree on how to do wudu/salat unlike the 'misguided' and 'confused' ones.
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perhaps but also people truly believe in what they believe and it is their truths. per sunni's, those who follow only the koran are the misguided ones. at least they all agree on how to do wudu/salat unlike the 'misguided' and 'confused' ones.
Well... the shiites also agree among themselves on "how to do wudu/salat unlike the 'misguided' and 'confused' quranist"..
Yet.. it's slightly different with the sunnis... and the sunnis labeled the shiites as kuffars..
Another example
The Orthodoxes agree among themselves on "how to do prayer service / liturgical ceremony unlike the 'misguided' and 'confused' quranist"..Yet.. it's slightly different with the catholics... and the catholics labeled the orthodoxes as "Infidel"..
And should I continues on citing the historic event when the sunnis massacred the shiites and the catholics massacred the orthodoxes? (And also perhaps when the catholics massacred the sunnis and the sunni massacred the orthodoxes)
Was it because they truly 'care' about those 'poor misguided people'?
Or is it .... due to the classic issues of $$$, Power and Influence??Salam / Peace
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The sunnis call everyone except themselves as kafirs... that's why they're being 'misguided'.. ))
Salam / Peace1753-54 And tell my servants that they should speak in a most kindly manner. Verily, Satan is always ready to stir up discord between men; for verily; Satan is mans foe.... Hence, we have not sent you with power to determine their Faith
It's being ignited by the Sunnis 'imam/habibs/clerics/ulema'. And their (blind) follower just go along with what their 'shepherd' told them to do.. hate anyone who are not among themselves..The reason for that is obvious, the Quranist (and also the shiites and the ahmadi and countless of other 'islamic' sect) are considered as a 'threat' to their hegemony... which might have a huge impact on their $$$, power and influence..
I see some Koranist doing the same could it be that they are so envious of $$$, power and influence of Sunnis 'imam/habibs/clerics/ulema' that they want to take over that role, &
Good point. The sad thing about this is its going to take some brutal flooging before she realizes what we are dealing with. She probably is talking about the lay men who do not know much. Let her go a Taliban court and tell them she believes in following Koran alone and we will see what kind of experience she will have. Her Sunni friends in Afghanistan will not even lift a finger when that happens since they can not publicly condemn what is considered Shariah law. That is when she will realize.
Salaam/Peace