The purpose of verbally asking Allah for help
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We're not asked to worship in the Quran, the word is translated accurately to "serve"
Well, how are we serving God Almighty by praying to him for things?
"Please save us" ( similar to 1022)
"Please provide us"
Sometimes, It is God Almighty who us doing us a favor (4917) -
Well, how are we serving God Almighty by praying to him for things?
"Please save us" ( similar to 1022)
"Please provide us"
Sometimes, It is God Almighty who us doing us a favor (4917)Praying is totally worthless sorry.
That verse 1022
He it is Who enableth you to traverse through land and sea; so that ye even board ships;- they sail with them with a favourable wind, and they rejoice thereat; then comes a stormy wind and the waves come to them from all sides, and they think they are being overwhelmed they cry unto Allah, sincerely offering (their) duty unto Him saying, "If thou dost deliver us from this, we shall truly show our gratitude!"Simply says they'll be grateful to Allah.
And how is worshipping also praying?
Salat =/= prayer
Ibada ( or w/e ) =/= worshipThey would oblige you that they have become Muslims! Say, "Do not oblige me by your Islam. No indeed, (but) Allah obliges you that He has guided you to belief, in case you are sincere."
The other verse, also totally irrelevant.
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That is true. Its an act of worship to ask God and we are commanded to do so in the Koran. Its also an evidence that you believe in God.
The problem is when you choose to translate "ibada" into "worship" instead of "servitude". One needs to understand that Islam is not a religion, and therefore is not a set of rituals created to appease and please an external God, Islam is a deen, an order, the "muslim" is required to serve Allah by doing good deeds such as helping the world, giving charity, striving for good and pursuing knowledge. And so, the argument inevitably fails.
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God Almighty would be the ONLY being worthy of all worship
how would you act in front of a king?
Would you not show some humbleness and respect? Or would you like him to go "off with his head"How would you act before God, the Kind of the universe?
would you not bow down when speaking, or show some respect? -
God Almighty would be the ONLY being worthy of all worship
how would you act in front of a king?
Would you not show some humbleness and respect? Or would you like him to go "off with his head"How would you act before God, the Kind of the universe?
would you not bow down when speaking, or show some respect?Since when is a human king superior to me? I would act with him as I would act with other human beings, maybe worse.
And this really does not prove anything. Worshipping is not "showing respect", it's living simply to adore an unexisting entity blindly, not being free to do what you want ( without transgressing of course )
I wouldn't act any way before God, because he does not exist. That is the foundation of Islam. There is no god, there is only Allah.
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I absolutely second what Kaiokenred just said. If you want to show your respect to Allah, respect his creation, recycle, help your brethren who are in need, volunteer, read and learn, strive for good etc. doing heedlessly a sheepishly structured namaz-like prayer to show "your respect" to your creator is absolute none-sense.
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I absolutely second what Kaiokenred just said. If you want to show your respect to Allah, respect his creation, recycle, help your brethren who are in need, volunteer, read and learn, strive for good etc. doing heedlessly a sheepishly structured namaz-like prayer to show "your respect" to your creator is absolute none-sense.
Totally taking that quote from your signature for facebook favorite quotes
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hi Kaiokenred and lordfox,
I just again wonder, how is it salaat is equal to sheep action or kind of ritual?
And the word "worship" does it not means perform a duty or task; function as; serve; ??
Guyz, i understand that you know something but let's do not make from fly a big elephant.I have special question to you, what do you think about juma salaat; is it like ritual thing 2 ?
p.s. please don't give me just link from http//servantofthelight.com/, USE your words.
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hi Kaiokenred and lordfox,
I just again wonder, how is it salaat is equal to sheep action or kind of ritual?
And the word "worship" does it not means perform a duty or task; function as; serve; ??
Guyz, i understand that you know something but let's do not make from fly a big elephant.I have special question to you, what do you think about juma salaat; is it like ritual thing 2 ?
p.s. please don't give me just link from http//servantofthelight.com/, USE your words.
Start by understanding that "salaat" does neither translate to nor is a form of ritual prayer. As for the difference between worship and servitude, you can use a dictionary. This is not even the subject of discussion anyway.
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Start by understanding that "salaat" does neither translate to nor is a form of ritual prayer. As for the difference between worship and servitude, you can use a dictionary. This is not even the subject of discussion anyway.
I just trying to understand your point man.
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God Almighty would be the ONLY being worthy of all worship
how would you act in front of a king?
Would you not show some humbleness and respect? Or would you like him to go "off with his head"How would you act before God, the Kind of the universe?
would you not bow down when speaking, or show some respect?Right!
man do you understand what Kaiokenred and lordfox say about salaat? what is your opinion on that;
http//servantofthelight.com/ did you read it ? specially salaat part -
Isn't the act of verbally asking Allah for something a direct and clear contradiction with its (Allah's) omniscience? Why not?
What are you saying? How could an act of verbally imploring Allah for help be a contradiction of Allah's omniscience? If you verbally ask Allah for help, does that mean that Allah is not omniscient? I don't understand this sort of logic. I don't think there is any contradiction at all. First of all it is not logically possible to have a contradiction from the sentence you put forth.
Second of all Verbally asking Allah for anything is a way to direct your mind and thoughts onto the existence of Allah. It is a way of connecting and communicating. It is an outreach by us. How can this contradict the omniscience of Allah? We are not talking about locations here... where is Allah, where are we, are Allah in us or outside us; part of us or separate.... this is not the point. Let's not trying to encompass and understand Allah beyond our capacity. We should fill our consciousness with the awareness of Allah! This is part what prayer(please, I'm not refering to namaz or solaa!) is all about.
What else are we supposed to do?? Just manifest stuff, or just shut up and be quiet because Allah already knows everything anyway? We have to express ourselves... this is how we will get response and feedback from Allah and creation. By NOT asking and thinking, we will just be a vegetable... useless, without conscious relation to Allah. We can not hide away. We have free will and are responsible for creating our own thoughts and actions. Why trying to avoid Allah? Why not ask Allah for help?
Peace
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What are you saying? How could an act of verbally imploring Allah for help be a contradiction of Allah's omniscience? If you verbally ask Allah for help, does that mean that Allah is not omniscient? I don't understand this sort of logic. I don't think there is any contradiction at all. First of all it is not logically possible to have a contradiction from the sentence you put forth.
Second of all Verbally asking Allah for anything is a way to direct your mind and thoughts onto the existence of Allah. It is a way of connecting and communicating. It is an outreach by us. How can this contradict the omniscience of Allah? We are not talking about locations here... where is Allah, where are we, are Allah in us or outside us; part of us or separate.... this is not the point. Let's not trying to encompass and understand Allah beyond our capacity. We should fill our consciousness with the awareness of Allah! This is part what prayer(please, I'm not refering to namaz or solaa!) is all about.
What else are we supposed to do?? Just manifest stuff, or just shut up and be quiet because Allah already knows everything anyway? We have to express ourselves... this is how we will get response and feedback from Allah and creation. By NOT asking and thinking, we will just be a vegetable... useless, without conscious relation to Allah. We can not hide away. We have free will and are responsible for creating our own thoughts and actions. Why trying to avoid Allah? Why not ask Allah for help?
Peace
Before wriggeling and stressing all around like a savage chicken, learn the difference between omniscence and omnipotence.
The question is why it is felt so needed to verbally and/or mentally expressing our needs to the creator while it (Allah) already knows what we need, feel like, want and thus will already choose to grant us the wish or not. Words have little importance compared to what is truly felt.
What about the human beings who are incapable of using the right hemisphere of their brain, and thus can neither speak nor verbally think and thus cannot express their needs with words to their creator? What about the ancient civilizations and present tribes who do not use words but sounds to communicate?
Secondly, to say that verbally (or mentally) asking Allah for something is a way to direct our thoughts and minds to it, is a complete risible idiocy to say the least. But perhaps you have never heard of meditation or lucid dreaming, in that case, you are not blamable.
In sum, your use of strawman and inability to process the main argument correctly through your mind, should be enough reason for me to even not bother answering you, but as I did the effort of writing one, please take the time to reflect, cogitate and ponder upon my response herewith before rushing a sloppy and excited comment.
Thank you.
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What about the human beings who are incapable of using the right hemisphere of their brain, and thus can neither speak nor verbally think and thus cannot express their needs with words to their creator? What about the ancient civilizations and present tribes who do not use words but sounds to communicate?
I have no idea. Are there people who are unable to use only their right hemisphere? If they cannot think thoughts, or as you say, verbal thoughts, then I'm sure Allah knows this as well (since Allah knows all). I believe Allah is just. Again, regarding the tribes... Allah knows... I don't know.
But that wasn't my point. I mean that verbal expression, whether audible or just mental, helps us focus our attention. I didn't say that those who cannot use verbal expression is without means of being connected to Allah. Allah knows about all possible cases. I was just giving my idea of the use of verbal expression.
It is felt so needed because this is how we express ourselves. How else would we do it?
Secondly, to say that verbally (or mentally) asking Allah for something is a way to direct our thoughts and minds to it, is a complete risible idiocy to say the least. But perhaps you have never heard of meditation or lucid dreaming, in that case, you are not blamable.
Why would it be risible idiocy to say that verbal expression is one way of directing our thoughts??? Exactly how does the existance of meditiation make this idea idiocy? I can't see how. Please explain.
Before wriggeling and stressing all around like a savage chicken, learn the difference between omniscence and omnipotence.
I'm not sure why you mention omnipotence, as it has not been part of our discussion. And I'm not sure why you assume I don't know the difference between it and omniscience. The whole talk has been about the need to express verbally your thoughts when Allah anyway is omniscient (knows everything). confused
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I have no idea. Are there people who are unable to use only their right hemisphere? If they cannot think thoughts, or as you say, verbal thoughts, then I'm sure Allah knows this as well (since Allah knows all). I believe Allah is just. Again, regarding the tribes... Allah knows... I don't know.
But that wasn't my point. I mean that verbal expression, whether audible or just mental, helps us focus our attention. I didn't say that those who cannot use verbal expression is without means of being connected to Allah. Allah knows about all possible cases. I was just giving my idea of the use of verbal expression.
It is felt so needed because this is how we express ourselves. How else would we do it?
Why would it be risible idiocy to say that verbal expression is one way of directing our thoughts??? Exactly how does the existance of meditiation make this idea idiocy? I can't see how. Please explain.
I'm not sure why you mention omnipotence, as it has not been part of our discussion. And I'm not sure why you assume I don't know the difference between it and omniscience. The whole talk has been about the need to express verbally your thoughts when Allah anyway is omniscient (knows everything). confused
I have an idea. Prayers are worthless and stupid. How about that?
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define 'prayers'
What's there to definite?
"Prayer is an invocation or act that seeks to activate a rapport with a deity or object of worship through deliberate communication."
"Most major religions involve prayer in one way or another. Some ritualize the act of prayer, requiring a strict sequence of actions or placing a restriction on who is permitted to pray, while others teach that prayer may be practiced spontaneously by anyone at any time."
The bold shows just how illogical prayers are
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I have no idea. Are there people who are unable to use only their right hemisphere? If they cannot think thoughts, or as you say, verbal thoughts, then I'm sure Allah knows this as well (since Allah knows all). I believe Allah is just. Again, regarding the tribes... Allah knows... I don't know.
This is the biggest problem. Instead of investigating the many reasons and flaws behind your idea, you prefer to quickly engage in debate, which is absolutely useless and time-wasting for both of us because you only blabber. This is why I usually ignore messages such as yours and nurmuhammed's; unpreparedness and precipitated speech.
Why would it be risible idiocy to say that verbal expression is one way of directing our thoughts??? Exactly how does the existance of meditiation make this idea idiocy? I can't see how. Please explain.
Because the whole point of meditation, which is a proven process to connect with the creative force as done by the many, if not all, prophets over time, is a complete antonym of verbal thought and expression.
I'm not sure why you mention omnipotence, as it has not been part of our discussion. And I'm not sure why you assume I don't know the difference between it and omniscience. The whole talk has been about the need to express verbally your thoughts when Allah anyway is omniscient (knows everything). confused
Read your previous message...
Anyway, this is going nowhere as it is obvious that you have neither a firm stance nor solid arguments to prove your point. You are absolutely free to continue to do as you wish, but please, pollute this thread no more. -
Kaiokenred,
If you don't mind, I'm interested in learning more about your ideas about our relationship with Allah. I'd like to get to know your ideas in order to expand my own view.
For example, I would be interested in learning about your take on human beings' relationship with Allah. If prayer is stupid then how can one have a communication? I'd like to know what you think makes sense.
Peace
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Because the whole point of meditation, which is a proven process to connect with the creative force as done by the many, if not all, prophets over time, is a complete antonym of verbal thought and expression.
I agree on meditation being a tremendous way of connecting with the creative force. However, you seem to miss out on a few vital things about thoughts, what they are, how they work, how they can be used, and what they can do for your circumstance and reality. Properly managed thoughts are also proven to connect with creative force.