Which direction to pray?

Sidi

Salam Bro Jaafar and Sis Ala

hmm, I concur with you to a certain extent.

In verses 02144,149,150 - In these verses it is not mentioned of Salat but the context in those verses points on a contrary. ALLAH says ...."turn your face towards Masjidil Haraam whereever you are.........." HE had extablished a focul point and for what, if its not for a specific purpose.

A good example is AQ-1087, where Bro Jaafar corrected me, if you check the context of the verse you will find that the Qiblat mentioned does not means direction but instead gathering / meeting point and it has nothing to do with direction of Salat albeit Salat is mentioned in the verse.

Thank you Bro Jaafar and Sis Ala. Its been an education for me )

Bahman

Peace everybody.
Regardless, timing, actions, words, claims for 396,...... now we live in such era with GPS and all other tools to find our direction
Any high school student knows that any sphere any size can have infinite center axis wich creates 2 points 180 degree apart from each other in all directions.
Simpler example is we can insert a Large Knitting Needles into any line splitting an orange in any direction which creates 2 points 180 degree apart from each other in infinite direction (Nano degrees ))
The following image shows that person in city 180 degree apart of KabhaS !

https//fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/314571_311746885518754_100000503349273_1292774_325885893_n.jpg

Bahman

Peace.
I see your point more clear now , regardless my picture not showing exact location and regardless you claim for being wet yet we have 360 direction asnd God knew that earth is not flat.

any sphere can have infinite axis

Bahman

Peace everybody.
Regardless, timing, actions, words, claims for 396,...... now we live in such era with GPS and all other tools to find our direction
Any high school student knows that any sphere any size can have infinite center axis wich creates 2 points 180 degree apart from each other in all directions.

Refreshing image url link
https//fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/385011_313888975304545_100000503349273_1299015_19871211_n.jpg

Jafar

Refreshing image url link
https//fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/385011_313888975304545_100000503349273_1299015_19871211_n.jpg

Refreshing the proper posture to pray towards Mecca from that point

http//www.serpentbox.com/blog/images/masl17_yearinphotos0712.jpg

Salam / Peace

Bigmo

Qaf-Ba-Lam as you've highlighted can also mean 'encounter', 'proceed towards'...
Which make this verse clearer..

AQ-10087
"And We inspired Moses and his brother with this Message "Provide houses for your people in Egypt, make your houses AS GATHERING POINT (Arabic Waj'alu Buyutakum Qiblatan) to AND ESTABLISH/UPHOLD THE SALAT (Wa Aqimu Al-Salata) and give glad tidings to those who believe!"

Qiblat is a place to gather.. gathering point.. rallying point.. a place to go to..
And not a 'place to direct your face to'..

10087 meant.. Yo. Moses.. create a dwelling place in Egypt.. gather all of your people there.. tell them to uphold/steadfast in faith/prayer/commandment and give good news for those who have faith..

Because the next plan is... to migrate all of them out from Egypt... which will be hard to do if you don't have all of them gathered in one place to start with right?

Salam / Peace

Thre is nothing in Judaic tradition about what you are saying. Meanwhile the Koran specifically said that Qibla is something the Jews have and understand like they understand and know their own sons.

Jafar

Thre is nothing in Judaic tradition about what you are saying.

Be more specific, about what?
The exodus?? They wrote a volume of it...

Meanwhile the Koran specifically said that Qibla is something the Jews have and understand like they understand and know their own sons.

Of course.. because it's Jerusalem.. as focal/gathering point/capital of the jews / Judea, before it was demolished by the Romans.. and they setup statue of their gods there... Afterwards the Romanic Christians take over, they put the Roman gods statue down and left it as rubble. Furthermore they banned any Jews (Nazarenes included) from entering Jerusalem.. that's why it's called "Restricted Place"..
That was the situation back around 600 AD..

Salam / Peace

youssef4342

Well, i personally would believe in Mecca as the direction. even if you think it's Jerusalem, both are at the eastern hemisphere.

From my point in the NE of the Us, i would face slightly south-east.
take a sphere of the earth, incline it to 23.5 degrees to the right, place a marker at your place, and a second marker at Mecca or jerusalem if that's your belief, then see which direction to look.

Note It is Important to title your sphere. The earth is TILTED around 23.5 degrees

Bigmo

Be more specific, about what?
The exodus?? They wrote a volume of it...
Of course.. because it's Jerusalem.. as focal/gathering point/capital of the jews / Judea, before it was demolished by the Romans.. and they setup statue of their gods there... Afterwards the Romanic Christians take over, they put the Roman gods statue down and left it as rubble. Furthermore they banned any Jews (Nazarenes included) from entering Jerusalem.. that's why it's called "Restricted Place"..
That was the situation back around 600 AD..

Salam / Peace

Jerusalem was what it was because of the Temple there and nothing else. The Jews used to face the temple in Jerusalem. There is nothing about gathering and focal point that I know of.

Jafar

Jerusalem was what it was because of the Temple there and nothing else. The Jews used to face the temple in Jerusalem. There is nothing about gathering and focal point that I know of.

The Israelites / Jews during Moses time hasn't developed a habit/tradition of facing certain direction upon praying or when they're dead.. (All Jewish graves after their second captivity by the Babylonians are oriented towards Jerusalem)
The Israelites cannot go anywhere outside the border of Egypt, they're slave there.. during Moses time.. Heck perhaps they cannot go outside their own homes / ghetto / district. A similar case found in today's Gaza district...
The 10087 is an order sent through Moses for the Jews to gather up in their ghetto / district. It's the same as saying
Gather up on your district/homes/ghetto folks! (Make it as QIBLAT) We shall migrate from the land of bondage (Egypt) altogether! To the land of the free where all of us shall be a freeman (and woman) once more...

Salam / Peace

Bigmo

The Israelites / Jews during Moses time hasn't developed a habit/tradition of facing certain direction upon praying or when they're dead.. (All Jewish graves after their second captivity by the Babylonians are oriented towards Jerusalem)
The Israelites cannot go anywhere outside the border of Egypt, they're slave there.. during Moses time.. Heck perhaps they cannot go outside their own homes / ghetto / district. A similar case found in today's Gaza district...
The 10087 is an order sent through Moses for the Jews to gather up in their ghetto / district. It's the same as saying
Gather up on your district/homes/ghetto folks! (Make it as QIBLAT) We shall migrate from the land of bondage (Egypt) altogether! To the land of the free where all of us shall be a freeman (and woman) once more...

Salam / Peace

So are you saying when the Koran said that the Jews would not be following your Qibla and you would not be following theirs that it means that you will all have different focal points and gathering points? And what was the focul point and gathering point for the Jews when the Koran came down? We know the Jews were in different locations around the world when the Koran came down and so are you saying that the Jews in Medina also had their own gathering points? I am not certain what you mean.

Jafar

We know the Jews were in different locations around the world when the Koran came down and so are you saying that the Jews in Medina also had their own gathering points? I am not certain what you mean.

Yes.. a different Headquarter/Homebase indicating a 'political conflict' or a 'split' happened between Muhammad's group and The Jews + Nazarenes group which are around him. Presumably they were once a one unified community/people.

There's another 'revelation' of not taking Jews + Nazarenes as "Protector" as they're "Protector/Ally of each others', perhaps they're 'scheming' something bad / plot to happen towards "Muhammad's group". This of course doesn't apply to "All Time and All Places", it's a remark based on condition which happened at that time and at that specific place on that specific "Jews + Nazarenes" group.

Because historically there are many instances where the Jews and the Nazarenes are basically torturing and killing each others..

Salam / Peace

Bahman

Is your point that the person in Brazil (imagine a person is in Brazil) Can pray both to their East and west but they'll still be praying towards the same place?
Similarly, a person in Britain can pray South Easternly and North Westernly but still be facing the same place? Or am I crazy lol
Phew!

Peace
Let us simply take an orange and insert along thin stick like those that chines us for food in any point but center it to circumference when sticks comes out rom other side it acts like axis and now these 2 points in either side of orange can be connected by 360 degrees or smaller scale.
Now consider insertion point as Quibleh and other point which is 180 degree apart a village or place . then they can pray all around circle and if we go for shortest distance then would be like this or this )
earth position and its tilting has no connection to this example.
Hope this clear up
Peace

Bahman

Well, i personally would believe in Mecca as the direction. even if you think it's Jerusalem, both are at the eastern hemisphere.

I wonder with such brightness still there is some shadows which could be influence of your belief.
Do you believe in black stone and have you kissed it or are you going to kiss it?
Although i do not agree with Ayman for rejecting Miracle and Rashad ins piration but his claim is very interesting which nobody has come with detail rejection of every single claim. How about You?

From my point in the NE of the Us, i would face slightly south-east.
take a sphere of the earth, incline it to 23.5 degrees to the right, place a marker at your place, and a second marker at Mecca or jerusalem if that's your belief, then see which direction to look.

Note It is Important to title your sphere. The earth is TILTED around 23.5 degrees

Here east west or north and south and tiliting so many degree is not the issue, Please read this post
Peace.

Bigmo

WHY TURN TO EAST FOR PRAYER ?

By FR.DR.K.M.GEORGE
Principal Orthodox Theological Seminary, Kottayam

Why do we turn to the East while we pray ? Can we not pray in any direction ? Since God is present every where and can hear our prayer, is it really necessary that we turn to a particular direction while praying?

Jews who live anywhere outside the holy city of Jerusalem traditionally turn to the direction of Jerusalem in Palestine ( modern Israel) for prayer, Muslims anywhere in the world will turn to Ka?aba, the sacred black stone in Mecca, Saudi Arabia for the prescribed hours of prayer. Christians from very ancient times used to turn to the direction of the rising sun for public prayer. For Christians in the western world this tradition is nearly lost. However all Christians belonging to the Eastern (Orthodox ) Christian churches still maintain this venerable practice of turning to the East for the public act of the community worship.

In the Christian church, we make a distinction between the personal prayer of an individual and the public worship of the Christian Community. An individual is free to pray any time, in any direction and in any posture. In fact, Christ and and the Apostles encouraged the practice of ?unceasing prayer?. One can pray while taking a bath, playing or eating. One can maintain the mood of prayer through out the day. This kind of continuous prayer of an individual has no fixed form or style or words. This could be done mostly in silence or with words one chooses or with the help of ancient prayers like the famous ? Jesus Prayer?. This can be practiced without engaging our conscious mind at all. This is essentially the practice of the presence of God every moment of our earthly life.

But public worship is different in its form and style. It is a community prayer in which many individuals together constitute one body, an expression of the body of Christ, the Church. They are not an ad-hoc community, but they continue the unbroken tradition of worshipping the Triune God from the time of the Apostles onwards. The best example of this kind of public worship is the Eucharistic liturgy or Holy Qurbana. In public worship we turn to East, the direction of the rising sun.

The Apostles of Christ were all Jews. The early disciples of Christ in Palestine were mostly Jews. They prayed like other Jews. Soon however, Christians developed their own prayers addressed to Christ as the saviour.

Because of a new spiritual awareness in the early Christian community, Christians developed a detachment to physical places like Jerusalem. Their absorbing concern was with the ?Heavenly Jerusalem? and the way to reach that abiding spiritual city. All places on earth were the same for them. No place was particularly sacred. So the early Christian community gradually moved away from the Jewish orientation to the city of Jerusalem in Palestine. At the same time a new sense of direction emerged in Christian worship, namely the direction of the rising sun.

This eastward direction developed in Christianity has a strong biblical basis

In the biblical story of creation we read ? And the Lord God planted a garden in Eden, in the east, and there he put the man whom he had formed ( Gen. 2. Eventually Adam and Eve, after their act of disobedience were sent out from the Garden of Eden in the East. According to Christian interpretation, since the time of this expulsion of the first parents by the eastern gate of paradise (=garden), all children of Adam and Eve look back to their lost home, the paradise in the East, with a deep sense of spiritual home sickness. So salvation is understood partly as a return to the original home.
The prophets foretold the coming of Jesus as the Messiah in symbolic and figurative language. The New Testament writers interpreted these prophecies as having been fulfilled in Jesus of Nazareth. For example the prophecy of Malachi. ? But for you who fear my name, the sun of righteousness shall rise with healing in its wings? ( 4 2). So looking to the East stands for our earnest waiting for the coming of Christ, the healer and saviour of the world.
Jesus said ? I am the light of the world, he who follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life? ( St. John 812) Light is the source of life. On our planet earth, all life depends on the light of the sun. But the physical sun in our solar system sustains only biological life in plants, animals, and human beings. This life will eventually die. The sun as a star will ultimately die as well. In the spiritual realm, Jesus is the eternal sun. He is the source and sustainer of all life, both biological and spiritual. He is ? the true light that enlightens every human being? ( St. John, 19 ).

Therefore we symbolically turn to the direction of the rising sun to receive the light of the risen Christ. Christ is also called ? the bright morning star? ( Rev. 2216) He inaugurated the new age of the Kingdom of God. As the dawn breaks, the eastern horizon brightens up with beautiful colours. We turn to the beauty and brilliance of God?s light as we praise the triune God facing east.

A popular Christian belief developed in the course of time that in the Second Coming, Christ would come from the East. The basis of this tradition is the Gospel reference ( Matt. 2427) that the coming of the Son of Man would be like lightening that shines from the east to the west.

So, turning to the east stands for our final preparation to receive Christ when he comes for the last Judgment of the world. Thus the east symbolizes our spiritual wakefulness, our readiness to give account of our life and our hope in the transfiguration of all creation in Christ our Lord.

This biblical, Christ centered tradition of the church of turning to the east in prayer is part of the rich heritage of the Orthodox church. We build our churches in the east-west direction. The whole congregation together with the priest turns to east in remembrance of all that God grants us from the time of our creation in Paradise to the fulfillment of all in the Second coming of Christ. The bodies of our beloved departed faithful are laid to rest facing the east with the hope of resurrection and meeting Jesus face to face.

Turning to the East, of course is a symbolic act. We know that East and West, South and North have no physical and geographical significance in the age of space travel in a Tran terrestrial cosmic frame. Yet it is a deeply spiritual symbol and a most beautiful one in the whole of Christian tradition. In special situations when the place or building where we worship happens to be inconvenient for the traditional orientation of the community, we are free to turn to any suitable direction. The sense of the east gives the right ? orientation? ( from the world Orient + East ) for our earthly life in the midst of suffering, doubt, and spiritual disorientation. In any case, it is only wise to keep this ancient tradition in its right spirit.

http//www.orthodoxherald.com/2009/07/06/why-turn-to-east-for-prayer/2/

nurmuhammed

Here is another example from the Reading that clearly shows sujud does not mean physical prostration.

Wad-qulul ba-ban suj-jadan. (25

And enter the gate consentingly (25

!

Kaiokenred