Evidence for your faith/belief ?
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Shalom Aleikhem,
Thank you everyone for sharing your views on the subject. I am waiting to read more posts from you and other members of the site.
Peace
--------------- Student of Allah -
peace be with you as well
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Shalom Aleikhem,
peace be with you as well
By the way, you have actually attempted at giving us a hint towards non-subjective reasoning for your faith. Would you mind demonstrating that with evidence ? May be in a new thread if you so wish ?
Peace
---------- Student of Allah -
salaam/peace all,
http//www.quran434.com/Does-God-Exist.pdf
Shalom Aleikhem,
Thanks for sharing that although I already read that long time back. Probably you shared the link in some other topic somewhere in any of the past threads.
I was thinking about starting an investigation on the scientific part of that pdf. Not only the ones you mentioned, there are even more. How much of it is real, and how much is the twisting of words and their meaning to derive a desired outcome. It would be nice to put them to the test.
Peace
------------ Student of Allah -
Salaam Student of Allah I was thinking the same thing.
There are not only 2 options for how the Quran came to be written - a 3rd option is extra terrestials - other forms of intelligent life! JUst because we can't think of other options doesn't mean they don't exist.
It could also be argued by Christians that their Bible brought about the unity of savage tribes (even more savage than the Bedouins!) For example the Maori tribes in Aotearoa-New Zealand were cannibals who gave up such practices as a result of converting to christianity. Also there is still a lot of tribalism practised in Islamic countries and this still causes conflicts and imbalances of power, so the unity is not to the same extent as Christianized western societies who are completely detribalised.
It's my understanding that in fact Mohammed was not illiterate as claimed by corrupted Muslims and popular literary works especially rhyme and poetry are not always the product of academic achievers.
How can we be certain that the reference to the moon splitting is a metaphor? On judgement day perhaps the mountains will literally crumble and the moon will literally split. Or it could also split in the future from other as yet unknown forces in space. Or could the splitting refer to an eclipse that covered half the moon?
The preserved body of Pharoah - preserving bodies was the custom of the Egyptians, so it is not hard to conclude that the bodies would be around in the future.
O you jinns and humans ...... people who believe in spirits also believe they inhabit the heavens, the earth, the trees etc its a big leap to hypothesise that this can only refer to space travel.
The Quran is fully preserved and intact - where are the parchments that Mohamed wrote on? Who put the first Quran together as we know it today - was it Mohammed? Where is that first Quran? Was it burnt? What year is the earliest Quran (in Istanbul? in Yemen?) dated?
Islam is the fastest growing religion - is that True Islam (i.e the original form of Islam "worshipping of God Alone" or the corrupted Islam - the idol worshipping religion of Mohammedism?
2885 Many refugees have the hope and determination that one day they will triumph and return home in a much better condition than when they left.Re no scientific information proven to be incorrect - just taking one of these examples - the embryo- would the stages of development be obvious when dissecting human remains in various stages of pregnancy? Isn't fluid (sperm) also a reasonably obvious connection to pregnancy even for people who lived 1,400 years ago. People in those days could navigate as accurately as we do now through their knowledge of the stars, prevailing winds etc. People (or extra terrestials!) from even earlier times had the mathmatical and scientific knowledge to build the pyraimids and Stone henge. Mathematics, especially numerology was their fundamental way of seeing the world. People of the past knew all the medicinal qualities of their native plants - people of the past were extremely knowledgeable in so many ways! So much of this knowledge has now been been lost, that we are not even aware of it's existence.
I am not disputing the authenticity of the Quran as the word of God, just the examples that have been given to "prove" this.
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I have always had the idea that God existed since I was a small child but never had what could be called "evidence" until I really started reading Intelligent Design arguments and that set a light off in my head/heart, so to speak. Intelligent Design is a completely rational, logical, scientific based argument for the existence of our Creator that is not dependent upon any kind of Scripture.
The only absolutely irrefutable evidence for God would be to see Him personally but that is not something we can do in this universe. It really comes down to a preponderance of the circumstantial evidence available to us, IMO. Some call that faith or belief and it depends on how much "evidence" an individual looks at or uses for the surety of such faith. For me, the structure of universe, the structure of our bodies and all living things, DNA, the structure of cells, microbiology, biology and chemistry all point towards a Creator. I always viewed the argument that there is an irreducible complexity to these things that random, purposeless, chance cannot account for. Hence the only rational, logical conclusion is God exists and He is the Creator. (this is a very abbreviated argument here)
Some very good, short, easily readable books on this is Darwins Black Box by Michael Behe and Signs of Itelligence by Behe and James Kushiner. They are scientists who put forth a non theological, scientific argument for the existence of a Creator and they make it easy for the average reader to understand the science behind it. For me, they were, among some other books too, absolutely profound in cementing my belief in the existence of God.
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The only absolutely irrefutable evidence for God would be to see Him personally but that is not something we can do in this universe.
Really?? And why is that?
How do you think 'we can see or cannot see' God?
And why do you think we cannot do it in this universe? thus it's possible in other universe?
And what is "God" to you? -
Really?? And why is that?
How do you think 'we can see or cannot see' God?
And why do you think we cannot do it in this universe? thus it's possible in other universe?
And what is "God" to you?So when Moses came to Our appointed time, and his Lord spoke to him, he said "My Lord, let me look upon you." He said "You will not see Me, but look upon the mountain, if it stays in its place then you will see Me." So when his Lord revealed Himself to the mountain, He made it crumble; thus Moses fell unconscious. When he awoke, he said "Glory be to You, I repent to You and I am the first of those who believe." (7143)
Similarly 531-18, 255, 4153
God is our Creator, the Almighty etc. Is that a trick question?
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Whether something exists or not can only be relative to something beyond existence altogether. That something (i.e. absolute reality/truth) is given the name "God".
Rephrased All things are born and they die. For this to happen there must be something unborn and deathless to witness & control these creations and destructions. We call this God.
Rephrase again All change happens against an unchanging background.Ch114 of the quran wraps this up eloquently All things depend on one uncreated self to which nothing can be equal to nor does it create equals. See the redundancy? You can reduce this to 'one absolute uncreated self'.
The flaw of non-belief or agnosticism is that they assume non-reality to be the absolute reality then wonder how this "came out of nothing".
Does not man see that We have created him from the small seed? Then lo! he is an open disputant.
And he strikes out a likeness for Us and forgets his own creation. Says he Who will give life to the bones when they are rotten?You don't need anything more than this to be certain of God. All one must do is rewind their life back to birth and look at the emptiness behind that. To grasp this is to grasp peace. In Zen there is a saying What does your face look like before you are born?
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I have always had the idea that God existed since I was a small child but never had what could be called "evidence" until I really started reading Intelligent Design arguments and that set a light off in my head/heart, so to speak. Intelligent Design is a completely rational, logical, scientific based argument for the existence of our Creator that is not dependent upon any kind of Scripture.
The only absolutely irrefutable evidence for God would be to see Him personally but that is not something we can do in this universe. It really comes down to a preponderance of the circumstantial evidence available to us, IMO. Some call that faith or belief and it depends on how much "evidence" an individual looks at or uses for the surety of such faith. For me, the structure of universe, the structure of our bodies and all living things, DNA, the structure of cells, microbiology, biology and chemistry all point towards a Creator. I always viewed the argument that there is an irreducible complexity to these things that random, purposeless, chance cannot account for. Hence the only rational, logical conclusion is God exists and He is the Creator. (this is a very abbreviated argument here)
Some very good, short, easily readable books on this is Darwins Black Box by Michael Behe and Signs of Itelligence by Behe and James Kushiner. They are scientists who put forth a non theological, scientific argument for the existence of a Creator and they make it easy for the average reader to understand the science behind it. For me, they were, among some other books too, absolutely profound in cementing my belief in the existence of God.
Shalom Aleikhem,
I am teleporting this to another thread which is more appropriate for discussing that. Meet me there if you wish. I will reply to your comment there.
Link Evolution or Intelligent design ?
Peace
---------- Student of Allah -
The math code and count of specific words blew me out of the water and convinced me that the Quran is perfect glory to God. Later learning about the literary miracle and how there are is an interesting palindrome in Quran also amazed me. Then also pondering the fact that so many people have been able to memorize the entire Quran by heart. I was humbled that with my limited memory., memorizing al fatiha in Arabic came very easy to me thank God. It's a blessing to have ample solid evidence for the right path I should follow in life. I never had this kind of evidence in the church or any of thw other religions ive investigated while searching for the truth.
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The word of GOD. Here are some examples of the evidence of my belief
O Children of Adam?
353 O people, ( all the world out there!) remember GOD s blessing upon you. Is there any creator other than GOD who provides for you from the heavens and the earth? There is no other god beside HIM, how could you deviate. ( take on other idols!)
O Children of Adam?
355 O people, GOD s promise is the truth. Therefore do not be distracted by this lowly life. Do not be diverted from GOD by mere illusions.?
O Children of Adam?
358 Note the one whose evil works are adorned in his eyes, until he thinks that he is righteous??
O Children of Adam?
3515 O people, you are the ones who need GOD; While GOD is in no need of anyone, the Most Praiseworthy.?
O Children of Adam?
3516,17 If HE wills, HE can get rid of you and substitute a new creation.?
? This is not too difficult for GOD.?
O Children of Adam? Stay loyal to your Lord- NO Idols!?
3514 If you call on them, ( your idols!) they cannot hear you. Even if they hear you, they cannot respond to your call. On the day of Resurrection, they will disown you.?
O Children of Adam?
3538 GOD is the knower of the future of the heavens and the earth. He is also the knower of your innermost thoughts.?
O Children of Adam?
3539 He is the one who made you inheritors of the earth. Subsequently, whoever chooses to disbelieve does so to his own detriment. The disbelief of the disbeliever only augments their Lord s abhorrence towards them. The disbelief of the disbeliever plunges them deeper into loss.?
Peace
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Shalom Aleikhem everyone,
Thank you all for sharing your views. I hope more people do.
So, from what I see, the case for faith in free-minds (from current data in this thread) is predominantly subjective.
For anyone who did not post yet Please can you share your views as well ? It would be nice to know all of our views.
Peace
------------- Student of Allah -
I need to add that I have some solid proof as well
Proof exist, but most people do not believe. Some people in past generations saw miracles and still they did not believe
( GOD? Designer of the universe? Surely HE will leave some kind of proof? Sign?)
( Phi, ? constant- = 1.61803? is the creator s signature on all HIS designs i.e The golden ratio? Science has proved ? See Dr Steven Markout 25 year study- that the relative ratio 1.61803? relates to all created structure of our universe. Also the sequence 0,1,1,2,3,5,8,? ? The work of Fibonacci, also called the sequence of nature, has a connection with the golden ratio ? See science research on flowers, spirals, DNA, etc?- The golden ratio and Fibonacci sequence permeates throughout the universe in both organic and inorganic worlds and at all scales and levels to such a degree that the probability of this being chance/ coincidence is virtually impossible. Hence a Designer, Creator exists.}
( What is even more interesting is the connection of the natural sequence 0,1,1,2,3,5,8,? with 19 ? 19 is a special number that this Designer/ Creator uses as part of the code ? Remember the emphasis on ONE GOD- Well 19 is the geometrical value- number value- of ONE in most languages, Hebrew, Aramaic, Arabic etc..( check it, Google it.. )
There is more. You can find more proof if you search.
Peace -
I need to add that I have some solid proof as well
Shalom Aleikhem,
If you meant that the things you wrote in your post are non-subjective, then I am afraid to inform you that they are subjective too.
Regardless of that, thanks for putting forth your view on the matter.
Peace
------------ Student of Allah -
So when Moses came to Our appointed time, and his Lord spoke to him, he said "My Lord, let me look upon you." He said "You will not see Me, but look upon the mountain, if it stays in its place then you will see Me." So when his Lord revealed Himself to the mountain, He made it crumble; thus Moses fell unconscious. When he awoke, he said "Glory be to You, I repent to You and I am the first of those who believe." (7143)
Similarly 531-18, 255, 4153
God is our Creator, the Almighty etc. Is that a trick question?
A 'great revealing lesson' to (naive) Moses... that the True God is here, there everywhere.. and doesn't have any limitation of X,Y,Z of space or t of time.
"The kingdom of God cometh not with observation Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."
Luke 1720Thus if "God" is defined as something which is only there and not here, or only be there at some other point in time..
Then I can definitely say that "Such God" doesn't exist... I'm an Atheist of such God..Salam / Peace
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http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14951.0
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I shall expand on the scientific proof of the existence of a "Creator" , "Designer" of this universe.
http//www.goldenratio.org/ info
The creator has put a code, a stamp in all HIS creation. ( Also a proof connecting the golden ratio, Fibonacci numbers and 19 exist..)
Peace.
