an opportunity?
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Peace all
And eat and drink until the white thread of dawn appear to you distinct from its black thread; then continue your fasts until the night and do not associate with your wives while you are devoted in the MASAAJID.
The fast should end at NIGHT.
WHAT IS NIGHT?
WA- AGHT.ASHA LAYL -HAA WA- AKHRAJA D.UH.AA -HAA 7929
And He made DARK the NIGHT thereof, and He brought forth the morn thereof. 7929
Night is DARKNESS and not SUNSET
Bukhari 3175 Umar Bin Al Khattab
Allah's Apostle said, "When NIGHT falls from THIS SIDE and the DAY vanishes from THIS SIDE and the SUN SETS, then the fasting person should BREAK his FAST."
WHAT THE MUSLIMS FOLLOW IS HADITH
If the fast was to end at SUNSET then the best word would have been MAGHRIB ASH SHAMS and not LAYL as used in the following verse
H.ATTAA 'IDHAA BALAGHA MAGHRIB ASH- SHAMS WAJADA -HAA TAGHRUB FE cAYN H.AMI'AH WA- WAJADA cINDA -HAA QAWM(AN) QULNAA YAA DHAA AL- QARNAIN 'IMMAA 'AN TUcADHDHIB WA- 'IMMAA 'AN TATTAKHIDH FE -HIM H.USN(AN) 1886
Until when he reached the setting of the sun He found it set in a spring of murky water near it he found a People We said "O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority) either to punish them or to treat them with kindness." 1886
If the fast was to end just before SUNSET then the proper word would have been QABLA GHUROB.
FA- IS.BIR cALAA MAA YAQOLON WA- SABBIH. BI- H.AMD RABB -KA QABLA T.ULOc ASH- SHAMS WA- QABLA GHUROB -HAA WA- MIN 'AANAA' AL- LAYL FA- SABBIH. WA- AT.RAAF AN- NAHAAR LAcALLA -KA TARD.AA 20130
Therefore be patient with what they say and celebrate (constantly) the praises of thy Lord before the rising of the sun and before its setting; yea celebrate them for part of the hours of the night and at the sides of the day that thou mayest have (spiritual) joy. 20130
FA- IS.BIR cALAA MAA YAQOLON WA- SABBIH. BI- H.AMD RABB -KA QABLA T.ULOc ASH- SHAMS WA- QABLA AL- GHUROB 5039
Therefore (O Muhammad) bear with what they say and hymn the praise of thy Lord before the rising and before the setting of the sun; 5039
Since Allah never runs short of words
And if all the trees on earth were pens and the Ocean (were ink) with seven Oceans behind it to add to its (supply) yet would not the Words of Allah be exhausted (in the writing) for Allah is Exalted in power Full of Wisdom. 3127
And neither errs nor forgets He replied "The knowledge of that is with my Lord duly recorded my Lord never errs nor forgets 20 52
Therefore the breaking time of the fast must be NIGHT (literal) and not SUNSET
thanks
Allah knows better
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Salaam all,
Thank you for your post brother Hafeez.
This verse is clear unless I'm missing something.
Isn't it interesting that we both see "clearly" different views from the same verse? There is no doubt in my mind (atleast not yet) that the verse clearly indicates night has no daylight in it and we are in darkness. Which then indicates again the same description of night in 1778. Darkness of the night, or night in which there's darkness. Sometimes, I have a feeling we look a little too much into something. This is my opinion anyway. It's simple and clear, in any other language, night is night. There is no daylight in it, there is darkness. This is the description in 3637.- There is a description of sunset here. Not used for 2185
I dont understand what you mean here.
Apologies, I meant 2187. I was trying to say that sunset is described in different ways throughout the quran (waning of the sun, 2 ends of the day, etc.) but never as night.
I share the same view and add this verse
- Have you not seen that God merges the night into the day and merges the day into the night, and that He has committed the sun and the moon, each running to a predetermined term; and that God is expert of everything you do?
Accepted, the day is merged into the night, and the night into the day, but this just tells me that these are two separate 'zones', if you will. There's night, there's day. As they merge, there's sunrise, and sunset. IMHO that means, the day doesn't just dissappear in a second and there's night, but there's a transition... that transition is not night.
Peace be with you all.
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peace hafeez kazi,
The 'taghrubu' in 1886 is in the imperfect active (i.e. in the process of being done) NOT "set" (past tense).
peace Zein,
the verse clearly indicates night has no daylight in it and we are in darkness.
If we take the "it" out of the sign and replace "it" with its reference (i.e. "the night") it looks like this
And a sign for them is the night, We remove the daylight from the night, whereupon they are in darkness.
Do you still think this verse "clearly indicates night has no daylight in it"?
Wakas
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Peace all,
I want to specify that I end my fast after the sunset; I start eating 20-25 minutes after 'maghrib/sunset' because I consider that the night is present even when I observe again daylight in it.
I don't know if we adamantly can say that the night is without daylight because it is called also the night when it is merged into the day, this is why I quoted 3129
Allah knows best
Maarie
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Salaam brother Wakas,
If we take the "it" out of the sign and replace "it" with its reference (i.e. "the night") it looks like this
And a sign for them is the night, We remove the daylight from the night, whereupon they are in darkness.
Do you still think this verse "clearly indicates night has no daylight in it"?
Without a doubt. Once daylight is removed, they are in darkness. When there's light, it's not night yet. We have words and descriptions for that transition as I pointed out before.I think I understand what you're pointing at though, that the light is removed from the night, which means there was light to begin with, in the night. That's how I understand the whole 'it' issue, unless I've misunderstood you. See, the night is not night, with daylight, and thats why it blends and then is completely removed. Also, try to think of it this way, why wait for the sun to fully set, at some point the 'night' has crept in. When does the 'merging'/'blending' actually begin then?
From all the verses provided, for this 'argument', they reassure me even more, that night is night, and no other way. But that's just me.
Peace
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Salaams all,
FWIW this is my understanding too
And a sign for them is the night, We remove the daylight from the night, whereupon they are in darkness.
There are parts of the day that identified as the day which contains dark and night that contains light. My approach was simply to look at the point that night starts.
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See, the night is not night, with daylight,
Salaam Kyle,
I think this is where the divergence in opinions comes from. The night has daylight in it. Are you thinking darkness=night I wonder?
Which part of the day does the time periods where there is both dark and light belong then? From the Qur'an I can at least say the latter part i.e. after sunset belongs to night. By your logic it would have to belong to the day...
regards,
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Peace be upon you Ashshura,
I didn't say anything!? shock D
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Salaam Ash,
Are you thinking darkness=night I wonder?
No, night = night. Darkness is a 'property' of night' as we see in 3637... whereupon they are in darkness. That's night. And it's not my definitionWhich part of the day does the time periods where there is both dark and light belong then?
It doesn't matter, that's not night.From the Qur'an I can at least say the latter part i.e. after sunset belongs to night.
Sunset is not night. As I said earlier, there are descriptions of sunset, in the quran... 2187 is not one of them.By your logic it would have to belong to the day...
It's not that either. Please read my posts on this thread.And it's Zein, not Kyle. wink
On a side note, it was a little amusing when I was debating with a sunni cousin of mine who was really defensive and started talking about definitions of night including a dictionary translation. roll Anybody, any place would have no problem in knowing what you mean, if you said night... but when it comes to religion...
Peace to all!
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I didn't say anything!? shock
http//www.websmileys.com/sm/happy/028.gif
lol Silly me confused Kyle with Zein wink
Salaams
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And it's Zein, not Kyle. wink
On a side note, it was a little amusing when I was debating with a sunni cousin of mine who was really defensive and started talking about definitions of night including a dictionary translation. roll Anybody, any place would have no problem in knowing what you mean, if you said night... but when it comes to religion...
Peace to all!
Salaam Zein,
Believe me I am not relying on dictionary definitions, I studied this last year but sometimes memory fades.
I will leave you with one thought and try to read your responses instead of engaging in a battle of whits D
See this translation
Another sign for them is the night we remove the daylight therefrom, whereupon they are in darkness.
If you can remove daylight from the night, it must contain daylight.
regards
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Salaam brother Ash,
No battle, just healthy debate.
As I said, we look at the same verse, and come up with different understandings. Night does not contain daylight, daylight is removed, then you have night, whereupon we are in darkeness. This is my opinion. I appreciate yours.
Best regards and peace be with you.
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Salaams Zein,
"battle" meant in the sense of a familiarity and tongue in cheek.
We all learn from each other and improve our understanding.
Peace be to you to.
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Peace Wakas
Your Quote
The 'taghrubu' in 1886 is in the imperfect active (i.e. in the process of being done) NOT "set" (past tense).You are right, but my argument is the selection of the words by Allah.
GHUROB = setting (of the sun or star)
MAGHRIB= Place or time of sunset
Why Allah has placed LAYL instead of BAA'D GHUROB ASH SHAMS in 2185
WA- AGHT.ASHA LAYL -HAA WA- AKHRAJA D.UH.AA -HAA 7929
GHATASH= to be or become DARK (night)
And He made DARK the NIGHT thereof, and He brought forth the morn thereof. 7929
The exclusion of the words BAA'D GHUROB ASH SHAMS and replacing it with NIGHT and further explanation that NIGHT is DARK clearly indicates that the fasting has to be ended at night, which is approximately 20 minutes after the sunset.
Your Quote
And a sign for them is the night, We remove the DAYLIGHT from the night, whereupon they
are in darkness.Do you still think this verse "clearly indicates NIGHT has no DAYLIGHT in it"?
You have added LIGHT to DAY. It is DAY and not DAYLIGHT. It changes the meaning significantly
And a sign for them is the NIGHT, We remove the (NAHAAR) DAY from the NIGHT, whereupon they are in darkness.
And establish regular prayers at the TWO ENDS OF THE DAY and at the approaches of the night for those things that are good remove those that are evil be that the word of remembrance to those who remember (their Lord) 11114
The MAGHRIB is the ONE END of the DAY and not PART of the NIGHT.
Thanks
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Salaam folks,
Sorry, couldn't help it! ops
Other than the verses already mentioned, here's some interesting ones...
In the difference between night and day and what God has created in heavens and Earth are signs for a people who are aware.
And We made the night and the day as two signs, so We erased the sign of night and We made the sign of day to see-in, that you may seek bounty from your Lord, and that you may know the number of the years and the count. And everything We have detailed completely.
And He is the One who made for you the night as a cover, and sleep for resting, and He made the day to move about in.
And He is the One Who made the night and the day in succession, for those who wish to remember or wish to be thankful.
Did they not see that We made the night for them to rest in, and the day to see in? In that are signs for a people who have faith.
Say ?Have you noted what if God made the night eternal, until the Day of Resurrection? Which god, other than God, can bring you with light? Do you not listen??
The sun is not required to overtake the moon, nor will the night precede the day; each of them is swimming in its own orbit.
Please note, I'm not adding my interpretation to the verses, so please read and ponder, and learn from them what you will.
Thank you for your time and patience.
Peace be with you all.
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peace hafeez kazi,
'aghtasha' means 'to make dark' / 'darkened'. 7229 does not support either view. It simply says 'and He darkened its night thereof'. Evening twilight is still dark, but not pitch black. Thus IF layl includes 'evening twilight' this verse still fits, and does not support either view.
Why Allah has placed LAYL instead of BAA'D GHUROB ASH SHAMS in 2185
Which verse is 'BAA'D GHUROB ASH SHAMS' from? In any case, if one explains what 'layl' is in another verse, and lets say it contains some light, then there is no reason not to put 'layl' in 2185. If the term is explained, then why not put it in.
The most accurate translation of 'nahar' is daytime/daylight, not day. I dont have time to go through all the 'nahar' references, but if anyone can provide one sign that goes against this understanding then I'll change my mind. You even provided 11114 which supports my view that 'nahar' is more accurately translated as 'daytime/daylight'.
Out of curiousity, according to your understanding, is there any Arabic word for 'twilight'? Is 'twilight' part of the nahar or layl? I'm assuming you think its part of nahar or neither.
Wakas
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Peace brother Hafeez, all,
I want to specify that I end my fast after the sunset; I start eating 20-25 minutes after 'maghrib/sunset' because I consider that the night is present even when I observe again daylight in it.
I don't know if we adamantly can say that the night is without daylight because it is called also the night when it is merged into the day, this is why I quoted 3129
The exclusion of the words BAA'D GHUROB ASH SHAMS and replacing it with NIGHT and further explanation that NIGHT is DARK clearly indicates that the fasting has to be ended at night, which is approximately 20 minutes after the sunset.
I think we are speaking about the same thing, 20 min after the sunset doesn't imply that it is total darkness but we can see again the light of the day (with a weak intensity) emerged into the night.
The total darkness begins about 60 min after the sunset.
Marie
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peace All,
Any further thoughts on this topic?
I think 1778 is in favour of layl/night still containing some light.
...at the sun's rubbing until the darkness of the night, and the reading at dawn...
If night was always dark, there would be no need to mention 'until darkness of the night', its a bit like saying 'until blackness of the black'.
?
Wakas
