Evolution or Intelligent design ?
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And what if Evolution is intelligent design?
God clearly uses automated systems in the universe, the orbits of planets, the way light works, in computing terms they are macros, why should evolution be any different? You have to remember, the fleshy human body and the soul are two separate things, the human evolved over millions of years, it was only at a certain point were our souls placed into them, that is the point where we gained sentience. -
And what if Evolution is intelligent design?
God clearly uses automated systems in the universe, the orbits of planets, the way light works, in computing terms they are macros, why should evolution be any different? You have to remember, the fleshy human body and the soul are two separate things, the human evolved over millions of years, it was only at a certain point were our souls placed into them, that is the point where we gained sentience.Shalom Aleikhem,
I kinda don't believe in a soul the way most do. I think of the soul to be a property of the brain, not separate.
Peace
------------ Student of Allah -
And what if Evolution is intelligent design?
God clearly uses automated systems in the universe, the orbits of planets, the way light works, in computing terms they are macros, why should evolution be any different? You have to remember, the fleshy human body and the soul are two separate things, the human evolved over millions of years, it was only at a certain point were our souls placed into them, that is the point where we gained sentience.Salam
you are probably referring to "spirit" correct? the spirit is not the soul. Adam was the only one gifted with ruh(discerning right from wrong/true from false)
our "soul/self" would be the nafs. which even most basic animals in the animal kingdom possess. Allah tells us it is the nafs which makes us act upon our animal tendencies. and the nafs inclines to evil. thats why we are to "purify the nafs"
and we will all be raised in the flesh. Allah makes this clear that we will be raised. and it is easy for the Creator.
back onto the topic i do believe in a guided form of evolution by Allahs design of course. Now there are many facets of theories. regardless, I did not witness the creation initially. but one thing is certain we are still evolving. scientific examination has found that over 5000 years from old skeletons to now that the human brain is SHRINKING. it is evolving. shrinking not as in unintelligent. but the brain/skull is shrinking. which they believe is due to the less usage of certain portions of the brain due to industrialization..
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back onto the topic i do believe in a guided form of evolution by Allahs design of course. Now there are many facets of theories. regardless, I did not witness the creation initially. but one thing is certain we are still evolving. scientific examination has found that over 5000 years from old skeletons to now that the human brain is SHRINKING. it is evolving. shrinking not as in unintelligent. but the brain/skull is shrinking. which they believe is due to the less usage of certain portions of the brain due to industrialization..
But you do witness the creation everyday.. even as we speak..
Or to put it in another sentence.. you do witness 'God's work' everyday..The whole idea of 'intelligent design' theory and 'resistance' to the "Evolution theory" is due to the fact that human (especially in the west) views God as another human..
He talk, He's angry, He's sad, He need rest etc..
His home or address is on the 'outside' of this universe..
Much worse they used to see God as a "Deity in the sky" looking down below on earth..Once you understand that the true Supreme Force of All Universes is here, there, everywhere and beyond you'll start to find the absurdity of 'Intelligent Design'... and you'll start to recognize that the word "Nature" / "Natural" and God is nearly synonymous... The "Law of God" is the "Law of Nature", unbreakable by anything...
Thus God (or nature) hasn't finished His (or It) works yet... on this universe... He (or It) still shaping Homo Sapiens and other beings and also other materials to become something new... until He (or It) destroy this universe with it's billion of galaxies....
The kingdom of God come not with observation
Neither shall they say, Look here! or, look there! for, behold! the kingdom of God is within you!.
-- Iashua Ha Nozirith (Luke 1720-21)Salam / Peace
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But you do witness the creation everyday.. even as we speak..
Or to put it in another sentence.. you do witness 'God's work' everyday..The whole idea of 'intelligent design' theory and 'resistance' to the "Evolution theory" is due to the fact that human (especially in the west) views God as another human..
He talk, He's angry, He's sad, He need rest etc..
His home or address is on the 'outside' of this universe..
Much worse they used to see God as a "Deity in the sky" looking down below on earth..Once you understand that the true Supreme Force of All Universes is here, there, everywhere and beyond you'll start to find the absurdity of 'Intelligent Design'... and you'll start to recognize that the word "Nature" / "Natural" and God is nearly synonymous... The "Law of God" is the "Law of Nature", unbreakable by anything...
Thus God (or nature) hasn't finished His (or It) works yet... on this universe... He (or It) still shaping Homo Sapiens and other beings and also other materials to become something new... until He (or It) destroy this universe with it's billion of galaxies....
The kingdom of God come not with observation
Neither shall they say, Look here! or, look there! for, behold! the kingdom of God is within you!.
-- Iashua Ha Nozirith (Luke 1720-21)Salam / Peace
Allah is beyond a created beings comprehension. and please refrain from turning islam to druidism. Do not say of Allah what you have no knowledge. Allah is not nature, he created it, he is not the universe he created it. and all things in this universe including EARTH obey his LAWS. Allah is far beyond anything. and yes INTELLIGENT DESIGN. Allah is the KNOWING, he has all knowledge. Allah is supremely knowledageable therefore the supreme intelligence.
he governs everything and encompasses all.
but I for one do not jump on this band wagon of ascribing things to Allah. Pagans made the mistake of worshipping stars as God. some nature, etc. And Now everyone likes to say Allah is dark matter, Allah is energy.
Allah created all these things. he sent down no word of what his true being is. and he assured the humanity that he is beyond the perception of a created thing. NOTHING is like unto him. that is the fundamental concept of Tawheed. so be careful before calling Allah nature.
salam
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I have seen that many times you have rejected these thoughts without consideration. I think really, it is the "isms" that scare you most, and prevent you from considering this idea. Since it seems that you are interested neither in philosophy nor in the phenomenons of quantum physics, I will only quote some verses from the Qu'ran to support this view, take off the veil of religion from your mind, and read the following
Say He is Allah, the One and Only (Ahadun) 1141
He is the First (Al-Awwalu) and the Last (Al-Aakhiru), and the Apparent (Al-Zhiru) and the Hidden (Al-Btinu), and He has knowledge of everything. 573
And to Allah belongs the east and the west. So wherever you turn, there is the (Wajh-ullah). Indeed, Allah is all-Encompassing and Knowing. 2115
And He is Allah in the heavens and the earth. He knows your deeds ? both secret and open ? and knows fully whatever good or evil you do. 63
Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The example of His light is like a niche within which is a lamp, the lamp is within glass, the glass as if it were a pearly star lit from a blessed olive tree, neither of the east nor of the west, whose oil would almost glow even if untouched by fire. Light upon light. Allah guides to His light whom He wills. And Allah presents examples for the people, and Allah is Knowing of all things. 2435
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I have seen that many times you have rejected these thoughts without consideration. I think really, it is the "isms" that scare you most, and prevent you from considering this idea. Since it seems that you are interested neither in philosophy nor in the phenomenons of quantum physics, I will only quote some verses from the Qu'ran to support this view, take off the veil of religion from your mind, and read the following
this has nothing to do with religion. no where is Islam a religion. nor did I make the assertion. again the verses does not say Allah is everything. he encompasses everything however. He is everywhere but he is not everything. he created everything. and when the Universe is rolled up on he will endure and remain.
your spreading conjecture of which you have no authority. your claiming im rejecting something but you are ascribing something you dont know. your calling the earth Allah...Allah created the earth and it obeys his laws he places in the heavens. Allah is above and beyond what any one compares him to.
subhanallah at the verses you posted. but Allah is not the creation. after the creation has perished only Allah will remain. the cause to the effect. Allah is the cause. the universe and creation is the affect. PEACE
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Peace,
You say subhanallah to the verses, great but that is a dismissive tactic. To me it sounds like saying "whoop dee do God said that, now let me tell you what the Real Truth? is". Forgive me if I am wrong, I see this happen a lot. What you said after is correct yet it doesn't affect the subject matter.What is your actual logical response/understanding of 2435? This is split into two parts literal (Allah IS the light of the heavens and earth) then an example/allegory (the light is like such and such).
Nobody needs to ascribe anything to God because He tells us his essence in that single verse.
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your spreading conjecture of which you have no authority. your claiming im rejecting something but you are ascribing something you dont know. your calling the earth Allah...Allah created the earth and it obeys his laws he places in the heavens. Allah is above and beyond what any one compares him to.
Where did I said that ????
It is you who said that...From easterner perspective;
They find it ridiculous those who think "The Supreme Force of All Universes" is a person who talk, who 'mould creation' with His hands.. who is above looking below, who design first before working.. etc...Those who think that "God need time to design first before working/creating" is yet putting another 'human behavior / habits / attributes' to the Supreme Force of All Universes...
gain the verses does not say Allah is everything. he encompasses everything however. He is everywhere but he is not everything. he created everything. and when the Universe is rolled up on he will endure and remain.
I concur to what you said, the true god (whatever name you used to call It or Him) encompasses everything.. he/it's everywhere and He/It is THE EVERYTHING.. and this universe with billions of Galaxies is just perhaps yet another universe from billions of other universes.. And He/It never stop working...
Salam / Peace
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Where did I said that ????
It is you who said that...From easterner perspective;
They find it ridiculous those who think "The Supreme Force of All Universes" is a person who talk, who 'mould creation' with His hands.. who is above looking below, who design first before working.. etc...Those who think that "God need time to design first before working/creating" is yet putting another 'human behavior / habits / attributes' to the Supreme Force of All Universes...
I concur to what you said, the true god (whatever name you used to call It or Him) encompasses everything.. he/it's everywhere and He/It is THE EVERYTHING.. and this universe with billions of Galaxies is just perhaps yet another universe from billions of other universes.. And He/It never stop working...
Salam / Peace
perhaps you are not understanding me. No where did i say Allah is a man that looks down with hands and legs. that upsurd. Allah is formless. nothing compares to the Creator. Allah surrounds everything be he is not everything. why can you not grasp the gravity of the situation? Allah created everything out of nothing the earth the stars the galaxies that formed from gas and intense heat, all these things matter and anti matter etc are all created properties, everything created will perish..
All the cosmos and many others OBEY Allahs laws that he has place in the universe, gravity, time space etc. all the laws of physics are implemented by the creator.
let me use an example a cheesey one yet it may get the point across. If you have ever watched star wars, "the force" is described much like Allah, a force of intelligence that is everywhere we turn, yet it is unseen, it works through the creation but it is NOT the creation. the force was an immeasurable thing that binded and created all things.
Allah is immeasurable. and everything in creation can be measured, and has divisible quantities. Allah is indivisible. "the one" this is the concept of tawheed.
sadly to many muslims take " i am every where you turn" to literally mean that everything (pantheism) is Allah. in doing so much like suffis and bahais people begin to self glorify and thing THEY are Allah. shirk in the highest degree. there is no comparison to Allah. that goes for all of creation. what does Allah say? when everything is destroyed all that will remain is his face(metaphorical of course) hence quite clear Allah has no begining and no end. he is not the creation but he surrounds and guides and manages it. he works through the creation.
nothing compares to the Lord of the Worlds.
the universe had a begining and it has an end. and the Quran is quite clear that Allah has no begining and no end. so to even associate these things with Allah and say Allah is the universe is a gross assumption.
Salam
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perhaps you are not understanding me. No where did i say Allah is a man that looks down with hands and legs. that upsurd. Allah is formless. nothing compares to the Creator. Allah surrounds everything be he is not everything. why can you not grasp the gravity of the situation? Allah created everything out of nothing the earth the stars the galaxies that formed from gas and intense heat, all these things matter and anti matter etc are all created properties, everything created will perish..
All the cosmos and many others OBEY Allahs laws that he has place in the universe, gravity, time space etc. all the laws of physics are implemented by the creator.
let me use an example a cheesey one yet it may get the point across. If you have ever watched star wars, "the force" is described much like Allah, a force of intelligence that is everywhere we turn, yet it is unseen, it works through the creation but it is NOT the creation. the force was an immeasurable thing that binded and created all things.
Allah is immeasurable. and everything in creation can be measured, and has divisible quantities. Allah is indivisible. "the one" this is the concept of tawheed.
sadly to many muslims take " i am every where you turn" to literally mean that everything (pantheism) is Allah. in doing so much like suffis and bahais people begin to self glorify and thing THEY are Allah. shirk in the highest degree. there is no comparison to Allah. that goes for all of creation. what does Allah say? when everything is destroyed all that will remain is his face(metaphorical of course) hence quite clear Allah has no begining and no end. he is not the creation but he surrounds and guides and manages it. he works through the creation.
nothing compares to the Lord of the Worlds.
the universe had a begining and it has an end. and the Quran is quite clear that Allah has no begining and no end. so to even associate these things with Allah and say Allah is the universe is a gross assumption.
Salam
Words has semantic problems... let's do this using math notations...
I hope your math is quite good..Let
God =Which give us
1 not equal to
2 not equal to
5 not equal to
100 not equal to
0 not equal to
100 <
200 <= 1 X
/ = 1
A set of { 0 .. 1000000000000000000000000000000 } is within { 0 .. }
1000000000000000000000000000000 <http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinity
Salam / Peace
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Do people here distinguish between chemistry and alchemy?
Is astronomy the same as - or similar to - astrology?The one is based on facts, confirmed predictions and reproducible experiments and the other is wishful thinking or superstition.
ID is designed, but not intelligently. It is not based on any form or branch of science, even though the Christian inventors never cease to claim this.The comments above show that very few people have actually read the books on ID and IC or have understood the principles and their refutations. What astounds me the most what is the problem with looking at evolution and the underlying theory realistically? Does evolution threaten or in any way even touch religious beliefs?
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Does evolution threaten or in any way even touch religious beliefs?
Yes it threatened the 'pride' of a sentient species on earth.. who always refuses that their ancestor were once a primate.. and they share some 'degree of kinship' with other primates (and also other non-primate species)..
Can you imagine what 'Adam's full name' will be in semitic culture?
Adam bin Bonobo bin Chimpanze bin MonkeyThey always insist that their species is the most 'unique species' on earth thus their root ancestor was being born out of nowhere.. "Hocus Pocus" and their root ancestor was born..
Salam / Peace
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who always refuses that their ancestor were once a primate..
I don't understand. Are you aware of the fact that humans ARE primates?
and they share some 'degree of kinship' with other primates (and also other non-primate species)..
Scientists have sequenced the genome of the chimpanzee and found that humans are 96 percent similar to the great ape species. Not just "some degree".
Can you imagine what 'Adam's full name' will be in semitic culture?
Adam bin Bonobo bin Chimpanze bin MonkeyI am beginning to understand you don't have a working knowledge of evolution, how it works and what it does.
They always insist that their species is the most 'unique species' on earth thus their root ancestor was being born out of nowhere.. "Hocus Pocus" and their root ancestor was born..
Salam / Peace
Who is "they"? No, evolution is a fact and not dependant on opinion or pride. It does nothing to creation and does not have an opinion on creation.
Evolution does not consider god or a creator. It does not consider Adam or any specific person, just the development of species and how they slowly developed from single cell organisms to complex organic structures.This is why I asked the question about alchemy and chemistry. Does chemistry concern itself with alchemy? No! If you want to believe something, it is your choice.
Just don't mistake "Intelligent Design" for an alternative to evolution. It has no predictive capabilities and is not based on anything tested or formalised. Just like alchemy.
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I don't understand. Are you aware of the fact that humans ARE primates?
And can you understand any single word that I said???
I'm explaining to you why they don't (want) to believe in evolution...
Nonetheless believe shall not in any way change or alter the hard fact...
In which, homo sapiens is the result of evolution and it's still going on as we speak.. -
And can you understand any single word that I said???
I'm explaining to you why they don't (want) to believe in evolution...
Nonetheless believe shall not in any way change or alter the hard fact...
In which, homo sapiens is the result of evolution and it's still going on as we speak..If I misunderstood you, sorry. It really does look as though I do not understand what you are saying.
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Shalom Aleikhem,
I regret to inform you that from my experience, what I have seen is that overwhelming majority of those who reject Evolution has no clue about it. They do not even know the basic fundamentals. Their idea is something like " A tornado going through a junkyard resulting in a fully functional F22 Raptor". If that was true representation of Evolution, would you accept it ?
Jafar pointed out something important. Our arrogance and ego always stops us from learning the truth.
The scientific back up that the theory of Evolution has is so strong, that we would have to discard a HUGE part of what we learnt from Modern Science for Evolution to be wrong. When I say HUGE, you can assume that I am talking about almost everything we learnt in the last 100 years. (from relevant branches of Science)
Peace
---------------- Student of Allah -
subhanallah at the verses you posted. but Allah is not the creation. after the creation has perished only Allah will remain. the cause to the effect. Allah is the cause. the universe and creation is the affect. PEACE
In my opinion you run into a problem with that statement as Allah states numerous times He is everywhere thus He is the creation BUT and I emphasise the but because as you also state He is beyond His creation so we will never comprehend Him fully and it would be incorrect of us to personify or limit Allah to creation.
I believe panentheism is the best conceptualised notion of Allah...the universe being contained 'within' Allah and yet Allah being 'outside' the universe. Seems odd at first but we have to take into account that we are confined to dimensions while Allah is beyond them and within them.
PEACE
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Peace.
Regardless of instituted viewpoints in connection with the secular concept of evolution, we have to face the hard fact evolution, via natural selection, poses a huge problem to theological notions relating to creation. From a philosophical perspective, it only takes a little back-tracking. If we evolved from a lower (different) species of being, and all of life ultimately stems from the pre-production of a single-celled organism, then how did God create (e.g. shape/form) Adam from dust/mud? The same skeptical inquiries are becoming increasingly prevalent from a cosmological standpoint too. If the universe can ultimately form (and dissolve) itself, which is the theme of a very well-written book by Professor Stephen Hawking, then what did God do? How did he create the entire physical presentation of the universe in 8 days? If everything can ultimately form itself, then what is the "use" of God at all?
In ancient times, people used the existence of "gods" and "goddesses" as key explanations for everything they didn't know and/or understand. When they felt rain pouring from above their heads, they began asserting that the "gods" must be sad and, therefore, crying. When they heard thunder strike in the distance, they asserted that the "gods" must be angry. The Greeks and Romans even developed elaborate tales of how and why the seasons change, such as stories about Artemis and Persephone. In today's world, those gods and goddesses are obsolete - not because the prevalent themes don't relay a message, but because we have no further "use" for those gods. We know why and how those natural changes and formations occur from a scientific standpoint, and we recognize that attributing those things to various deities is foolish and irrational.
Professor Stephen Hawking has already asserted that, given the current cosmological arguments with regard to formation and development of the universe, the idea of God as a creator is "completely unnecessary". Many, if not most, cosmologists and astrophysicists agree with him. Professor Richard Dawkins, a prominent biologist, has already asserted that the idea of God shaping, or even generating, the various species of life on our planet is ridiculous, and the mainstream sector of biology agrees with his viewpoint. So, with this in mind, how long will it be before people begin to catagorize the Judeo-Christian deity (e.g. Yahweh, Jehovah, Allah, etc.) with the likes of Zeus, Apollo and Prometheus - mythical figures who have been logically proven to be unnecessary and, therefore, nonexistent?
Science is shifting things in that general direction, whether with regard to cosmology and the formation of the universe, or with regard to biology and the natural variation of species. Eventually, the need for a god may become obsolete.
Peace,
Ahmad