Is hadith false??? Please help me understand
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Shalom Aleikhem,
Maybe because I was raised in the middle east my self...so its hard for me to forgo this dogma...as...dogma...I just can't have the audacity of judging all those people as wrong....and blind...how can I a measly 23 year old gay couldave 'figured it out' and after 1000s of years (has it been?) they didn't their must be something that makes sense that is missing....maybe I just don't want to face another ostracizing feeling about my self....being gay is bad enough....
such a drama queen i am...why can't I just eat dates and drink milk and shut up?
Well, if you ask me, nearly all messengers/prophets had the audacity to question the world around them, their collective views/thoughts/ideas. The last time I read about Abraham, the story wasnt like "Oh... so I am the only one that thinks, but how can all of the other people be wrong, there is just too many of them, so let me submit to their numbers. ". That attitude gets us no where near truth. Think about our scientific progress, it is built by challenging the conventions and winning by the weight of evidence and reason. Not through submission to popular beliefs.
Since your inclination is towards Islam, why dont you ask yourself this question " How can 2 Billion Christians be wrong, thats even after having 2000 years of collective thought put into it ?"
The reason you can't eat dates, drink milk and shut up is because you are not a rejector, you do not conceal the truth, you establish it.
Peace be with you
------------------------- Student of Allah
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Shalom Aleikhem,
Well, if you ask me, nearly all messengers/prophets had the audacity to question the world around them, their collective views/thoughts/ideas. The last time I read about Abraham, the story wasnt like "Oh... so I am the only one that thinks, but how can all of the other people be wrong, there is just too many of them, so let me submit to their numbers. ". That attitude gets us no where near truth. Think about our scientific progress, it is built by challenging the conventions and winning by the weight of evidence and reason. Not through submission to popular beliefs.
Since your inclination is towards Islam, why dont you ask yourself this question " How can 2 Billion Christians be wrong, thats even after having 2000 years of collective thought put into it ?"
The reason you can't eat dates, drink milk and shut up is because you are not a rejector, you do not conceal the truth, you establish it.
Peace be with you
------------------------- Student of Allah
Yes I thought of the scenario...so I was like...so do I say I am of a prophet audacity...?!!!
I mean at the end of the day the prophet did get God to speak to them...so I can never be sure...and maybe that's what I need to settle with....
Yes so what about Christians...which is what makes me worry, that I still am just the result of my circumstances after all, itsn't that my logic won...its just cause of my life story is why I want to be a 'Qur'anist' I just resorted to my comfort zone after all just like everyone else...
I just need to make a decision...and I have always been horrible at that...maybe if I study hadiths better I'd figure something that would affirm me the way or the other...
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Thanks for your welcome and detailed reply....Believe me it all makes sense to me so much, but I am always surprised by the twists and turns people do when I ask them why is hadith valid...and I turn out to be satan's whisper...or some choose to say we do not know seek scholars...and scholars are so...rude?!...and angry?!..and loud?!...and...non conversational..you say something they answer as if you said something else
Also God said do not prefer a prophet over the other, yet sticking to the hadith of prophet Mohammed only...and only him, shows extreme preference...I don't know....
Maybe because I was raised in the middle east my self...so its hard for me to forgo this dogma...as...dogma...I just can't have the audacity of judging all those people as wrong....and blind...how can I a measly 23 year old gay couldave 'figured it out' and after 1000s of years (has it been?) they didn't their must be something that makes sense that is missing....maybe I just don't want to face another ostracizing feeling about my self....being gay is bad enough....
such a drama queen i am...why can't I just eat dates and drink milk and shut up?
Salaam Brother,
Just because something is done for hundreds or thousands of years, the passing of time doesn't make it correct. Allah mentions this in the Qur'an about how people would mock Muhammad and protest against God's message with the claim that their forefathers had been indulging in idol worship and this was something which had gone on for such a long time, how could it possibly be wrong! For how long was the Earth flat? For how long was idol worship in existence before any revelation from God through His Prophets and Messengers? For how long will it be acceptable to stone people to death and so arrogantly claim that this is God's decree? By questioning you are doing absolutely the correct thing. From my experience, people take Hadiths at face value because they feel they are linked to God through "noble" and "pious" men and this has been a tradition amongst some for centuries. Hence, they don't question it, but until it is questioned, we will live in ignorance. Otherwise, this ignorance will pass on from generation to generation, which it has been doing for too long. If you read the Hadiths, there are very contradictory things in there. You will find that at every turn with these collections, despite attaching the word "Sahih" from them. I honestly don't beleive Allah cares which hand you eat with or how long your beard is or how many dates you choose to eat. Worrying about these benign, superficial things takes the very essence out of faith. You will get people passing on dogma to you and preaching and dictating away to you just because they have a collection of Hadiths in their library. Well, this doesn't make them right and you wrong. Allah is accessible to everyone-not just those who decide to quote Bukhari et al as a footnote in the Qur'an. The important thing is to follow the guidance of the Qur'an and nothing else.
As for the gay thing, being gay or having been gay doesn't preclude you from having "figured it out", well, not in my opinion anyway. I'm aware your own experience dictates otherwise (and I'm sure many people on this forum would disagree with me), but to me, Allah's words of the best of creation being those who possess piety come to mind.
Have faith in your own convictions. Trust in Allah and insh'Allah, with others' help, perhaps, the answer will come from within you.
May you find your peace.
Ma assalamah.
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Thank you so much to your welcome...LOL I think this is the most pleasant welcomes I even had on a muslim forum...and even a forum...too good to be true is how I truly feel....
Hating my self is just how I have always breathed, I hope one day I will understand the difference between selfishness and self-love...
...the problem is when you are gay...gay people would tell me that's what I need to do as well....so....its all smoke and mirrors to me what is dogma and what is sinfull..and what the heck am I...
Anyways regardless thank you so much for wishes and welcomes group
I have just seen what you posted. Thank you, but there's no need for you to thank me. I just wish you didn't feel like this, but we go through every process for a reason. Insh'Allah may Allah deliver you to your peace very soon.
Can I just ask, as long as you're comfortable with it, where are you currently based? I have spent a relatively large amount of time (considering I am a heterosexual woman) with gay (particularly Muslim) men in many personal and social settings as I have had a number of friends, who were, inadvertently, gay and Muslim. I haven't found my experiences to be the same as yours. Of course, I am not a part of that circle, but I have spent a lot of time within it and I have met some really nice people. After all there's good and bad everywhere.
Yes I thought of the scenario...so I was like...so do I say I am of a prophet audacity...?!!!
I mean at the end of the day the prophet did get God to speak to them...so I can never be sure...and maybe that's what I need to settle with....
Yes so what about Christians...which is what makes me worry, that I still am just the result of my circumstances after all, itsn't that my logic won...its just cause of my life story is why I want to be a 'Qur'anist' I just resorted to my comfort zone after all just like everyone else...
I just need to make a decision...and I have always been horrible at that...maybe if I study hadiths better I'd figure something that would affirm me the way or the other...
Of course you can have the "audactity" of a Prophet. The Prophets were fallible human beings too and there are many examples of this in the Qur'an.
With Hadith, if we apply a logic of common sense (apart from the fact that they are not an attachment of the Qur'an by divine revelation), they just cannot be accurate. Now, I will give you an everyday example. If I tell my brother something and then he tells my mum, my mum then narrates this back to me, the narration is always very different from the original. This is because we all speak differently, we use different levels of English, different vocabulary, our depth of expression is different and much is lost in the transportation of the message. These are just a few things which I have listed. This is a chain which involves only three people and we are from the same family, yet this is something which occurs on a regular basis, I have to consistently make corrections to the eventual message which was received because it has been completely misconstrued from when the utterance first left my mouth. Now, with a chain of narration involving numerous people, how on Earth can you expect a collection of sayings, which are effectively "Chinese Whispers" to have passed through different tribes, countries, linguistic frames, political backdrops and evasive memories to stay true to their original form? How can you possibly deny people their basic human rights on this? How can you use these nonsensical works to overrule God? It is ridiculous and doesn't make sense on a basic, common-sense level, let alone after having been put through a modicum of scrutiny.Once you have studied them, insh'Allah, you will see the truth. They are collections of absurdities. There is no need for them whatsoever. They are, in fact, a hindrance to your spiritual and emotional development and not a nourisher or enhancer of them.
Peace be with you.
Ma salaam.
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I was just wondering.... do you feel ashamed being attracted to guys? isn't something only a sin if you act on desires? i am woman very much attracted to guys but being single most of my life, i have been celibate. Desiring to have sex with men is not a sin and it makes me 'normal' to have sexual feelings. The Koran is clear on fornication being a major sin and telling us not to even go near it. Acting on desires outside marriage is a sin. So why can't you just accept being a homosexual and live a chaste life like other heterosexual single people out there?
Instead of feeling terrible about yourself and thinking of killing of yourself, why not think that this is your test and trial in this temporary life and make the most of your life doing good deeds and striving to live a righteous life and controlling your desires. Why can't you think that God loves you to make you different and giving you this hardship?
Why look for explanations of why you are a homosexual? Why not accept yourself that you are homosexual but it goes against your understanding and belief system to act on your homosexual feelings and desires? And that's it.
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Well...I never really knew what to think of the being gay thing, obviously people love to make poetry about how to curse someone who is homosexual..., but I never understood either why would I be attracted to same sex, have no way of knowing who is gay and who is not, be mostly attracted to very straight males...and obviously the biology does not fit very well...but still I had those attractions, and I had nil girl attraction..
Anyways Islam depressed me for a while too though..God said in the Qur'an that Lut told them never has anyone been creative in sinning... and that really hurt...cause I was like I didn't want to be like this God.., I understood where Lut's people came from, so I felt horrible and that God gave a ticket to Muslims to dismiss my problem, and not try to help me and instead accuse my lack of faith.
I did realise though in the verse after in The Heights (A3raf), after Lut asked them, god said, and they ONLY REPLIED with get him out, so they did not seek help or understanding...and PERHAPS...that is where things went wrong...maybe I am just conveniently trying to redeem my self...but I can't take the suicidal thoughts anymore.
Anyways I researched many many times...and the religous easy would have you say you are a pervert, or you are trying to bring chaos to our society, or you are just making this up to upset us...things that are REALLY dismissive makes you feel your human experience is a scam, you were meant to be a robot.
On the other hand 'open minded' straight people would say 'I don't care what you do in your bedroom' and pretend that this means he approves me when it really says is you go do what you want, I DON'T CARE...well sorry I want someone to care. Then there is the gays themselves...I didn't deal with many in person, but one thing I noticed we are all so emotionally damaged, wither we fess it up or not, and most of us have horrible self image (figures) and most of us quiet bluntly have horrible dads and family dynamics...and most of us are...artistic and that crap. So I felt like that can't be an accident...having a bad dad isn't genetic is it...
Anyways there is NARTH website, and Dr.Joseph Nicolosi, who handled the problem from a shame aspect, that most homosexual men anyways have a problem with what it means to be a man, they felt men are assholes (true to me) and thus detached themselves, but were left with...well what the heck am I, and somehow that's where it gets twisted...sexualised men...as a defense to there identity cause they themselves are men...I don't know how that happens, but I do know my dad hated my guts and beat the living crap out of me, and never validated me, and most guys instinctly hated me and I hung out with mostly girls through my life cause they are what I got along with...till one girl said 'you're not a girl...why the heck are you always hanging out with girls'...so basicly it is an identity crisis, in this world that is so obsessed about making money and getting MORE...and more crap..
so ya...that's why I think homosexuality is a manifestation of bad relationships....its a much longer theory visit narth.com
I do not understand what makes you think homsexuality has anything to do with God's destruction of the people of Lot and why you would think homosexuality is a great sin. Anyways we had a forum user by the name of Mushu who opened an interesting thread about this issue of Lot and homosexuality. This is the thread, maybe you can comment on it.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9602272.0
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Hello Nevashiva.
Yes bro, you are right. No offence but the "muslims" are really hypocrites. They criticise other religions to the nth degree, but when it comes to their own faith, they somehow will have selective amnesia. Haha. You should read the quran translations at quran.com. You will notice that they will twist and turn the ayats and blame and threaten the jews and christians in their translations. Sad life. nope
Bro, please never think that God will misguide you due to your shortcomings. Remember that Moses murdered a man in the earlier part of his life. Later on, however, he was granted prophethood. God knows us better than we do.
Death will only come at the right time and the right place. Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.
You continue doing what you were created to do. Your judgement is from Allah alone others are just shadow's of their authentic selves and are irrelevant towards your journey into the light. May your heart be filled with love and your spirit guided by the Creator do good deeds and be prepared to receive your blessings....One Love! group
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I do not understand what makes you think homsexuality has anything to do with God's destruction of the people of Lot and why you would think homosexuality is a great sin. Anyways we had a forum user by the name of Mushu who opened an interesting thread about this issue of Lot and homosexuality. This is the thread, maybe you can comment on it.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9602272.0
Guys come on, I mean the verse in Aaraf (881) bluntly states it as do you lust men without the women....I have read those theories about what exactly did people of lut do and all that good stuff...but the much easier to attain meaning is that it talks about a society...that lusts for men with no women...it was stated in the old books the same way...three times getting it wrong is to difficult for me to believe...but thanks I will read the post...
I also am fixated on why I am homosexual because of the whole...no one ever did it before...I want to understand what does that mean?....why do I want it and it is surprising by God's standards..., but then maybe it meant no human beheld this before....rather than God being astonished...but still...God ruined there place for that reason...
sigh...i'll just disappear for now hate this cycle of never understand the heck I am...
Thanks everyone tho...was nice to talk...
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Peace nevesheva.
I think you are very brave. You have gone through the biggest hurdle, you are trying to solve something that is bothering you.
GOD talks about _patience - and -perseverance-, I am not pretending to put myself in your place, nor am I trying to say I understand how you feel or I have a solution.
I am trying to give you as much support and hope
3953 Proclaim? O my servants who exceeded the limits, never despair of GOD s Mercy. For GOD forgives all sins. (providing you stay loyal to GOD until you pass HIS test!) HE is Forgiver most Merciful.?
KeepTrusting in GOD Alone to help
Peace. -
Guys come on, I mean the verse in Aaraf (881) bluntly states it as do you lust men without the women....I have read those theories about what exactly did people of lut do and all that good stuff...but the much easier to attain meaning is that it talks about a society...that lusts for men with no women...it was stated in the old books the same way...three times getting it wrong is to difficult for me to believe...but thanks I will read the post...
I also am fixated on why I am homosexual because of the whole...no one ever did it before...I want to understand what does that mean?....why do I want it and it is surprising by God's standards..., but then maybe it meant no human beheld this before....rather than God being astonished...but still...God ruined there place for that reason...
sigh...i'll just disappear for now hate this cycle of never understand the heck I am...
Thanks everyone tho...was nice to talk...
The people of Lot were detsrroyed for the same reason that God destroyed the people of Noah, Saleh, Ilyas and others. Homosexuality or not. Its not the homsexuality I look at in that verse but the rape and agressiveness.
"Indeed you ta'tuuna the men (al rijal), you cut the path, and you bring all vice to your society." But the only response from his people was to say, "Bring us God's retribution, if you are being truthful!"
29.29. "Do ye indeed approach men, and cut off the highway?- and practise wickedness (even) in your councils?" But his people gave no answer but this they said "Bring us the Wrath of Allah if thou tellest the truth."
Maybe these guys were raping travellers and bringing them by force to their council and maybe this is why they were unique.
After all we have also this verse
When Our messengers came to Lut, he was grieved on their account and felt himself powerless (to protect) them. He said "This is a distressful day. And his people came rushing towards him, and they had been long in the habit of practising abominations. He said "O my people! Here are my daughters they are purer for you (if ye marry)! Now fear Allah, and cover me not with shame about my guests! Is there not among you a single right-minded man?" They said "Well dost thou know we have no need of thy daughters indeed thou knowest quite well what we want!"
The fact that Lot knew before hand that his guest will be harmed by the villagers shows the culture of gang raping and kidnapping people in the highways and raping them was rampant. Thats why God destroyed the people of Lot because of this wickedness. This behavior is unique in human history. A society dominated by violent rapist homosexuals who think they can rape whomever they get their hands on. Very arrogant and wicked people.
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I also am fixated on why I am homosexual because of the whole...no one ever did it before...I want to understand what does that mean?....why do I want it and it is surprising by God's standards..., but then maybe it meant no human beheld this before....rather than God being astonished...but still...God ruined there place for that reason...
sigh...i'll just disappear for now hate this cycle of never understand the heck I am...
Thanks everyone tho...was nice to talk...
Instead of being fixated and wanting to understand, why not just accept yourself and work on changing yourself. Why not ask God to help you not have desires for men? Meditating, praying, fasting..... Why not ask God to remove your distress and purify your soul? Why not reach out to God? Why not ask God to change your condition? And God will.
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might be interested in reading stories of homosexuals who changed their life and how.
http//bible.org/article/can-homosexuals-change
hope you will find your way and peace. may God help you but you have to reach out to God.
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Salaam,
My personal reasoning about homosexuality is exacting to that which ''Bigmo" has described. You have taken the traditionally accepted perspective that the punishment of those people was for homosexuality. The prohibition of homosexuality is not stated categorically in any of those verses.
It isn't the most well written book, in my opinion, but if you read 'Homosexuality in Islam', by Scott Siraj Kugle, you might find that interesting as it has opposing ideas to the tradional assertions. Alternatively, you could "youtube" the guy, I think he has some short seminars on there. At the same time, I would advise not to take anyone's proclamations, especially not on religion, as absolute. Ask Allah for guidance in all things and He will guide you to your peace insh'Allah.
Lastly, it isn't really my place to say this, but in the spirit of care, I really do think you could, perhaps, benefit from some sort of counselling/therapy. I don't know whether that's something you've explored before, but I think that, along with your journey in faith to your spiritual nourishment, would be extremely beneficial for you.
Forgive me if I have spoken out of turn.
May Allah guide you to your peace.
Ma assalamah.
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I think when hadith users use the you are influenced by the west, I crack...cause...well yes I am...so that makes me feel as much a result of a certain mold as they are...there is no superior knowledge involved...we are all just a result of our upbringing....nothing is in our control..
It would be much easier to fit in in the west if Hadiths did not exist...and it would be much easier to fit in if it exists if I was in the middle east...or whatever country that operates using Islam...and I am only muslim cause I was born in a muslim family
So...I don't know...I read the Qur'an and it makes me feel any of us might turn out wrong...and that frustrates me....it really does...why can't I feel I am on the right track...an athiest can use the same argument that he is challenging the masses then he is obviously onto something...
I think the reason I don't pray to God to remove my gayness, cause if he doesn't I am afraid what would I do with my life...maybe I am just a test but I am tired of being mocked, of hearing people curse gays...of being out of my element all the time...of pretending I am on the same side as him and her...it isn't at all about the sleeping with guys..I never did and never will cause I am too paranoid to like someone anyways...
Everytime a hadith explanation is mentioned, it is always the...well how much is Zakat...how would you get married...how would you pray...
I think the main reason I hate hadith is not my logic, as much as feeling very hurt that it says painters go to a speciall hell...that those who draw will have what they drew torment them...I felt like...not this again...the only thing that gave me emotional respite a chance to escape the world to feel like I am doing something I actually like...is yet again like gayness a special sin with an amazing infuruating effect on God...it made me feel that's not fair....but who the f am I to say what is fair...but I don't think I can take it anymore...
Psychologists....they just throw pills at you and vomit what the APA tells them to vomit, even though they would act very differently if i is there son who is homosexual....people in the west pretend they like gays, and I think the straw for me was when i found out even athiests say I wouldn't let a gay near my children...
This is just too confusing to me...and too subjective...why can't God be clear with me....why when I read the verses I am never sure am I those who will suffer or those who are ok to go....
Quranists according to a lot of religous authorities are going to hell....why am I always inclined to what goes to hell...I want to believe in God....I want him to tell me what I need to do....but I guess being a robot is the only way I can do this....that's what I need to figure out..how to be as robotic as most people...they just do life and don't need to understand it...I don't blame them...God doesn't seem like he will answer any questions...I'd rather be blind/deaf/mute...then I wouldn't feel so lost about why can't I make sense of anything...
I am sorry I am being negative...but....its what i think....and...yeah... whatever
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Sounds like you've been living in a bubble for sometime. A lot of us here lived in the same bubble.
I hope Allah helps you breach the barrier.
you are most probably right, I thank you for your prayer... I guess....I am just going through serious attempt of denial here...lol...
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Salaam,
My personal reasoning about homosexuality is exacting to that which ''Bigmo" has described. You have taken the traditionally accepted perspective that the punishment of those people was for homosexuality. The prohibition of homosexuality is not stated categorically in any of those verses.
It isn't the most well written book, in my opinion, but if you read 'Homosexuality in Islam', by Scott Siraj Kugle, you might find that interesting as it has opposing ideas to the tradional assertions. Alternatively, you could "youtube" the guy, I think he has some short seminars on there. At the same time, I would advise not to take anyone's proclamations, especially not on religion, as absolute. Ask Allah for guidance in all things and He will guide you to your peace insh'Allah.
Lastly, it isn't really my place to say this, but in the spirit of care, I really do think you could, perhaps, benefit from some sort of counselling/therapy. I don't know whether that's something you've explored before, but I think that, along with your journey in faith to your spiritual nourishment, would be extremely beneficial for you.
Forgive me if I have spoken out of turn.
May Allah guide you to your peace.
Ma assalamah.
I have also noticed that about him. He has persuaded himself that homosexuality is a grave sin. Even if we are to take it as a sin, its not a grave sin. Homosexuality tells us nothing about a person's faith or character. All it tells us is his sexual preference. It says nothing about how he goes about dealing with people. Homosexuality by itself is not a measure to judge someone with. But I think he has been influenced by the Sectarian understanding of what is a grave sin and what is not. Homosexuality does not tell us if a person is a liar or honest, sincere or a hypocrire, generous or stingy, loyal or treacherous, forgiving or vengeful or merciful or heartless. Its in the end a sexual preference that most people do not share and find odd and even repulsive. That is normal since most humans are heterosexuals. I also believe society is harsher on male homosexuals than on lesbians. I think this has to do with how men view gays. Men can find lesbianism attractive and even exciting. They can buy sex tapes where lesbians are performing. But most men find male homosexuality repulsive. The more male dominated a society the more negative view of homosexuality.
The problem is that he is relying on the story of Lot. That story was not designed to deal with homosexuality. The only time the Quran comments on sexual misconduct is on adultery since this has an element of betrayal and a breaking of a bond. He somehow convinced himself like the Sects did that the people of Lot were destroyed because of homosexuality. Its not that this elevated homsexuality beyond what it should be but it in fact demoted the reason why God will destroy nations. Destroying nations is not a small issue. Its not something God will do because of sexual preference only.
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http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojxYDtl_xuQ&feature=plcp
I LOVE THIS GUY!!!!! he is egyptian too!! he makes me feel not insane..hurray!
edit Omg he was assasinated....OMG...this world is so messed up...
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@Bigmo..... nice post.
I don't believe anyone can truly be at peace if they listen to and are influenced by majority of the people on this earth. I don't know what it is like to be gay but I do know how it felt being told that I am going to hell for questioning and not believing what I was being told to believe. Well, at least the Christians said that I will be going to purgatory till I accept Jesus as my savior.
Again, it is my understanding that you have only committed a grave sin if you have sex outside of marriage. If desiring and having a crush on someone is a sin, I am sure most if not all of us have all sinned! I can fantasize about having an orgy but that is not a sin. Only a sin if I actually go do it. I can think and plan about stealing but that is not a crime. Only when I actually act on certain thoughts will I be held accountable for such actions.
Now applying that to homosexuality. A gay person can think, desire, lusting after same sex but has not committed a sin unless he acts on his thoughts and desire. So why not accept being gay and just not committing any sin? now, if it is distressing to even being gay and desiring is a sin then work on that distress by asking God for help and never giving up.
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knowledge involved...we are all just a result of our upbringing....nothing is in our control..
You do have control - full control of your thoughts and also your life now. You can control who you listen to, who you will be influenced by and what kind of person you want to be. You are in the drivers seat of your life. You are in charge. You have so many choices. You can make that choice and take control over how you feel about yourself.
I pray that you make the right choices and find your way and peace within your soul. Well, we are all rooting for you here! Hang in there.