one world - one period of abstention
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Peace brother Herbman,
The coming down of the great reading happened to be during the scorching full-moon, wherever that location was. Even within the northern hemisphere, the night rotates and at the exact point in Arabia when the great reading came down, it wasn't even night yet in other parts of the same northern hemisphere. The fasting is not tied to the great reading coming down. It is tied to witnessing of the scorching full-moon regardless of which point in the Northern or Southern hemisphere you are on. The great reading is not even coming down anymore.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace all.
I agree with this observation by Ayman.
Fasting is not tied to the sending down of the qur'an. The sending down of the qur'an is only one event that occured during these nights of fasting. God did not tell us to celebrate - like some sort of an anniversary -- the sending down of the qur'an through fasting. There is no such thing.
What is clear is that we fast when we witness "the shahr."
Ramon O0
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Salaam Ramon
Fasting is not tied to the sending down of the qur'an. The sending down of the qur'an is only one event that occured during these nights of fasting. God did not tell us to celebrate - like some sort of an anniversary -- the sending down of the qur'an through fasting. There is no such thing.
What is clear is that we fast when we witness "the shahr."This seems to be a good reading of the verse concerned.
The question remains if one sees the place of the sending down of the Koran - Arabia, as guiding for the timing of the -shahr ramadan- for the whole world, or does one accept a double timing-system.
The Koran was sent down during -shahr ramadan- on the Northern Hemisphere as far as we can know - so this might indicate the right timing.
The acceptance of a double timing-system would cause al lot of uncertainty for the millions of people living near the equator, when to abstain and when the -shahr haram- the restricted full moons would be.
Nowhere is stated in the Koran that from a certain geographical point the fasting and the restricted moons would be about half a year later.salaam
truthseeker171 -
Peace all,
just my 2 cents
Brother Ayman' argument seems to me more logical, you witness the full moon you fast, wherever you are, this will also fix the issu for the 2 poles, where the full moon cannot be witnessed during summer.
Regarding the numbers of days for fasting brother TH171's arguments seems to me more logical, you witness full moon you fast therein. The scorching full moon is the marker for begening and end.
Peace
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all shaher is a time that has a begiining and and is markedwith an end.
they are the ahhillat ,the full moon could be a sign but it does not have a begginnig neither an end.
it just is and not any more.
pls reflect.
salam. -
Salaam Mohamad
all shaher is a time that has a begiining and and is markedwith an end.
they are the ahhillat ,the full moon could be a sign but it does not have a begginnig neither an end.You are right in stating that the full moon has not a 100 percent clear beginning and ending - the same we can say for the -hilal-, regarding the international debates about the beginning and ending of the traditional fast of the sunni, shia and others.
A moon-calender can show us the moment of the scientific full moon - exactly to the minute, but the full moon with at least 98% coverage lasts three days, no shorter not longer.
What can be discussed is when the three days of fasting start.
Is it one day before the scientific full moon when there is 98% coverage - so day 3 will also have about 98 % coverage?
Or is it the start after the scientific full moon with about 99.+x % coverage and do we accept that the moon is at day 3 of the fast only 96 % visible?Verse 2184 states that the fast should be more than two days - regarding the plural-form days -ayyaamaan-.
So the full moon can be a perfect marker of the beginning and ending of the three days of fasting.
Only there is to be decided if the scientifical or the visual full moon is to be followed - 98 % coverage is a visual full moon.Salaam
truthseeker171 -
truth seeker.
i have something that i want to share with you ,tell me what you think.
the aya is clear it says that who ever sees the full moon the shahr then he must fast.
and in here we despute whta is a shahr is say it is the no moon like the new moon as it is known and you say it is the full moon.
i dont know.
the aya says who ever sees it then he must fast.
does this meanthat seeing and fasting go togther.
i want to give you an example
when i say the shahr is the no moon or known as full moon then you should clearly know that it can be seen once .
yes the moon that cannot be seen at night when it is new can sometimes be see during the day and this happens once a year what do you think.
so we can some how see that something happens once a year for like two days where the moon can be seen after sunset adn during the day but there is no moon it is a new moon and that happens once a year.
pls let us reflect more on this ,i think we need to giveit more time ,dont jump to conclusions and dont get misguided from thta which is not quran. i see it gives others the exact opposite as some claim that the prophet saws used to fast on a full moon. pls we have to discover from the quran.
let us see further this issue.
salam -
Salaam Mohamad
the aya says who ever sees it then he must fast.
does this meanthat seeing and fasting go togther.Verse 2185 states that when one witnesses the -shahr ramadan- one has to abstain it.
Witnessing can mean literally seeing, but allegorically it can mean being present.
Millions of people did not see the -shahr ramadan- because it was clouded in their region.
So following moon-calendars could be the best way - the believers can witness the -shahr ramadan- in the most unambiguous way.when i say the shahr is the no moon or known as full moon then you should clearly know that it can be seen once .
yes the moon that cannot be seen at night when it is new can sometimes be see during the day and this happens once a year what do you think.
so we can some how see that something happens once a year for like two days where the moon can be seen after sunset adn during the day but there is no moon it is a new moon and that happens once a year.The -shahr ramadan- is one of the 12 or 13 full moons of the year - it is related to the scorching heat - that is the meaning of the word ramadan.
In Arabia this is the moment of the summersolstice - june 21.
The first full moon after the summersolstice indicates the period of abstention - this once a year.Salaam
truthseeker171 -
Salaam Ramon
This seems to be a good reading of the verse concerned.
The question remains if one sees the place of the sending down of the Koran - Arabia, as guiding for the timing of the -shahr ramadan- for the whole world, or does one accept a double timing-system.
The Koran was sent down during -shahr ramadan- on the Northern Hemisphere as far as we can know - so this might indicate the right timing.
The acceptance of a double timing-system would cause al lot of uncertainty for the millions of people living near the equator, when to abstain and when the -shahr haram- the restricted full moons would be.
Nowhere is stated in the Koran that from a certain geographical point the fasting and the restricted moons would be about half a year later.salaam
truthseeker171Salaam Truthseeker171 and all
For now my understanding is to take the Northern Hemisphere as the defining area to determine "what" summer solstice to follow. I believe that while God did not enjoin "anniversary" celebrations on the sending down of the qur'an; the sending down of the qur'an is indicative of where and when it occurred and what summer solstice we need to watch out for.
For now, our exhanges are better to attain certainty rather than follow traditional understandings which are way off qur'anic injunctions.
Again, may God increase our knowledge.
God bless everyone.
O0 Ramon
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Salaam Ramon
For now my understanding is to take the Northern Hemisphere as the defining area to determine "what" summer solstice to follow. I believe that while God did not enjoin "anniversary" celebrations on the sending down of the qur'an; the sending down of the qur'an is indicative of where and when it occurred and what summer solstice we need to watch out for.
You are right in stating that the moment of sending down of the Koran is connected with the period of abstention - this alone does not mean that this period is to celebrate this event.
But if the ending of verse 2185 is read, then one can see that related to the period of fasting, the believers should remember the greatness of God and be grateful, because He guided us - the guidance comes from the Koran - verse 21
So I see that there can be a remembrance or celebration of the sending down of the Koran during these days - as can be done throughout the year.
The main issue seems to be the right timing of the fast and the issue about how to remember the greatness of God in guiding the believers seems to be more personal.2185 --- The full moon of Ramadan, wherein the Koran was sent down to be a guidance to the people, and as clear signs of the Guidance and the Salvation. So let those of you, who are present during the full moon, fast it; and if any of you be sick, or if he be on a journey, then a number of other days; God desires ease for you, and desires not hardship for you; and that you fulfil the number, and remember the greatness of God that He has guided you, and haply you will be thankful. ---
Salaam
truthseeker171 -
time of the year - bump
Truthseeker
Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.