Qur'an and Miracles
-
Peace Kaiokenred.
You have a lot of faith in the man?
What about you/ Your own opinion? What is the use of having the Koran?
Are we not meant to study it and try to ponder what it says ? All of it, not just bits of it?
May " Rabb" guide us to his truth.
Peace.Faith is an utterly awful thing to have. I don't have faith in anything.
I don't care about who the man is, It's just that those translations seem most reasonable to me. So yes it is my own opinion, what did you believe? -
Peace Kaiokenred.
I believe in the Creator.
I believe in the Koran, All of it and all God s Scripture before ths Koran.
I believe in GOD s Prophets/messengers all of them.
Please check my posts, they will give you an idea, also check
http//www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/website-pages/who-is-responsible-for-you/
Peace.
-
Peace Kaiokenred.
I believe in the Creator.
I believe in the Koran, All of it and all God s Scripture before ths Koran.
I believe in GOD s Prophets/messengers all of them.
Please check my posts, they will give you an idea, also check
http//www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/website-pages/who-is-responsible-for-you/
Peace.
Yes please tell me how relevant any of that is to what we were discussing before
-
Dear Friends, for those of us who are mere students, this issue of interpretation becomes extremely confusing. Consider what is going on
Two different groups, having extensive knowledge of Arabic differing over this issue of Miracles !!
What is a common man supposed to do?
That leads me to another major point I have with religion
When a Prophet is alive, all such matters are resolved by an authority sent by Allah. When the Prophet is no longer with us within a few years, disputes over interpretation emerge and then conflict starts. Take the differences over Imamat vs Khilafat dispute between Shias and Sunnis. Each argue that their position is right. Now, with the Prophet no longer around what this leads to is division and it's consequences.
Question is when such major disputes arise, how are we to resolve them with no Divine Interpreter present. Sure we have the Qur'an but people differ over it's meaning as well!!
Sometimes, in such situations one wishes that another Messenger arrives and settles such disputes uniting the Ummah. Since that is no longer the case what are we supposed to do? Differ with grace and agree to disagree? In certain matters not vital for peace we can do so but how about sectarian conflicts. Look what is going on in Syria. It is about to blow up taking down Lebanon with it.
-
Dear Friends, for those of us who are mere students, this issue of interpretation becomes extremely confusing. Consider what is going on
Two different groups, having extensive knowledge of Arabic differing over this issue of Miracles !!
What is a common man supposed to do?
That leads me to another major point I have with religion
When a Prophet is alive, all such matters are resolved by an authority sent by Allah. When the Prophet is no longer with us within a few years, disputes over interpretation emerge and then conflict starts. Take the differences over Imamat vs Khilafat dispute between Shias and Sunnis. Each argue that their position is right. Now, with the Prophet no longer around what this leads to is division and it's consequences.
Question is when such major disputes arise, how are we to resolve them with no Divine Interpreter present. Sure we have the Qur'an but people differ over it's meaning as well!!
Sometimes, in such situations one wishes that another Messenger arrives and settles such disputes uniting the Ummah. Since that is no longer the case what are we supposed to do? Differ with grace and agree to disagree? In certain matters not vital for peace we can do so but how about sectarian conflicts. Look what is going on in Syria. It is about to blow up taking down Lebanon with it.
Instead of waiting for a prophet's coming. Which, even if it were to happen, everyone will have issue of his/her authenticity. Who do you think will confirm it? Why shouldn't we try to understand just a word of book, if not a three or four lettered verse, ourself to confirm which is correct.
-
Peace Kaiokenred.
You asked me a specific question. I answered your question.
You are dodging the questions and issues most of the time.
If you are not sure in your mind just be honest and say so.
Peace. -
Dear Brother Bkanwar2, that precisely the here Interpretation.
Qur'anic terms are being translated different ways. If you really want to have a good example of what is going on, try visiting aastana.com and read what Dr Qamaruzzaman is upto. Now he says Saum does not means fasting, zina does not mean adultery, nisa means weak of the society and Malik does not means angels but elites !!
But I digress....
In any case I find that some who are Qur'an alone based, differ over intepretation and the example I gave was over the validity of Miracles in the Qur'an and what it means by no change in Allah's ways!!
What is a common person supposed to do? Who is to decide who is right?
There is a couplet in Urdu which says
Illahi teray saada dil Banday
Bataa aakhir kahan jaaen !!(Lord, what us, simple folk, supposed to do?)
-
Peace Kaiokenred.
You asked me a specific question. I answered your question.
You are dodging the questions and issues most of the time.
If you are not sure in your mind just be honest and say so.
Peace.I asked you what did you believe about why I believe Dr. Badar now what your spiritual views were
-
Peace Kaiokenred.
The simple answer is I do not understand it.It may have some benefit like a lot of other systems, but I do not believe it is the truth.
Peace.
-
Dear Brother Bkanwar2, that precisely the here Interpretation.
Qur'anic terms are being translated different ways. If you really want to have a good example of what is going on, try visiting aastana.com and read what Dr Qamaruzzaman is upto. Now he says Saum does not means fasting, zina does not mean adultery, nisa means weak of the society and Malik does not means angels but elites !!
But I digress....
In any case I find that some who are Qur'an alone based, differ over intepretation and the example I gave was over the validity of Miracles in the Qur'an and what it means by no change in Allah's ways!!
What is a common person supposed to do? Who is to decide who is right?
There is a couplet in Urdu which says
Illahi teray saada dil Banday
Bataa aakhir kahan jaaen !!(Lord, what us, simple folk, supposed to do?)
I do visit that site. Problem with most there is that they are stuck in the past. Thinking Dr. Pervaiz did a complete job in translating Quran. Although, Dr. Pervaiz realized correct method of understanding Quran; but unfortunately failed to recognize that it was just not few terms that were changed. It is the basic philosophy of Quran that was changed. Please try to understand Allah = "One who is not a deity for worship". Let this meaning sink in. Once it happens, then one stops worrying about all rituals of current Islam individually.
More important issue then is, what our Rabb wants from us? What is written in this book? To me, ones all energies needs to be put into work in this cause.
-
In any case I find that some who are Qur'an alone based, differ over intepretation and the example I gave was over the validity of Miracles in the Qur'an and what it means by no change in Allah's ways!!
What is a common person supposed to do? Who is to decide who is right?
There is a couplet in Urdu which says
Illahi teray saada dil Banday
Bataa aakhir kahan jaaen !!(Lord, what us, simple folk, supposed to do?)
Salaam,
Brother please take a look at the following.
3127
3127 And if whatever trees upon the earth were pens and the sea, replenished thereafter by seven seas, the words of Allah would not be exhausted. Indeed, Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise.How can you expect every individual on the same platform now? You see how much are the words of Allah? It is impossible for everyone to be on a single platform.
There are many ways that takes you to Allah, you can take any way that you like to be correct honestly. Your intention should be to make Allah Raadhi with you. You are only created to serve Him alone. So, look what He asked you to do and do it that is what serving is.
BTW, is that Panjabi or Urdu that you wrote above?
May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path pr
mmKhan -
Peace Kaiokenred.
The simple answer is I do not understand it.It may have some benefit like a lot of other systems, but I do not believe it is the truth.
Peace.
Believe whatever you want, if you're actually talking about systems the Natural Law is obviously the best
-
Dear BKanwar2, you wrote
"....I do visit that site. Problem with most there is that they are stuck in the past. Thinking Dr. Pervaiz did a complete job in translating Quran. Although, Dr. Pervaiz realized correct method of understanding Quran; but unfortunately failed to recognize that it was just not few terms that were changed. It is the basic philosophy of Quran that was changed. Please try to understand Allah = "One who is not a deity for worship". Let this meaning sink in. Once it happens, then one stops worrying about all rituals of current Islam individually...."
Just a correction first. G A Parwez was not a Doctor. Just a scholar of the Qur'an who wrote "Mafhoom Al Qur'an, Tabweeb Al Qur'an and Lughat Al Quran" among many other books. His students do not regard him as the last word on the Qur'an . Neither he made such a claim.
So, Allah according to you, is not a deity for worship. Agreed. He is One to be served and His guidance to be followed. Parwez suggested Salat the prayer is a component of Salat the system in a society, that needs to be established.
Then you say that all rituals of current Islam should not be worried about. For now let us take Salat which has been repeatedly emphasized in Allah's Book. Saum can come later.
Salat. Many try to explain it as communication, contact, following closely, system, bond, prayer, obeying the law, community meetings, etc. If this is the case then how to explain call to prayer, washing before prayer, Rukooh, Sujood, shortening of prayer when necessary, resuming to normal method when an inconvenient situation is removed, marks of prostration, accountability of prayer on Day of Judgement, prayer is a burden for those who are not humble, Salat Fajr, Salat Wusta, Salat Isha?
Consider
4103 Verily, for all believers prayer is indeed a sacred duty linked to particular/stated/appointed/schduled/perscribed/specific/fixed/specifie times .
Are we to assume at other times we can relax our observances/promises/abiding/helping/meetings, following/obeying the law, system etc etc ??How about a 1400 year old unbroken practice that the Muslims are following? Borrowed from the Zaroastrians as some suggest? Well, I checked Zaroastrian prayer method which can be seen on Youtube. It does not even come close to the way Muslims pray. Some Jews, Youtube shows, some Jews pray almost the same way as Muslims do complete with Qiyam, Rukooh and Sujood!!
What are then, masajids for? Community meetings only?
-
Dear Brother consider yourself a new born baby. Wipe off all brain washing that we had. It is difficult but need to work on it. Then let us try to learn the world with new glasses on. Also try to learn Arabic to understand Quran. One can learn to lead a good life without Quran. In fact in my opinion one is far better off without current translation than with it.
-
Dear BKanwar2 you say
"...Dear Brother consider yourself a new born baby. Wipe off all brain washing that we had. It is difficult but need to work on it. Then let us try to learn the world with new glasses on. Also try to learn Arabic to understand Quran. One can learn to lead a good life without Quran. In fact in my opinion one is far better off without current translation than with it...."
In other words, the ball is back in my court! Now I need to do a few things all over again including reading non conventional translations of the Qur'an !! Do they exist? What if there are difference of interpretation in them? Then what happens? Two non conventional translations are by G A Parwez and Dr Shabbir. Both differ in many places and indeed Dr Shabbir says he differs with Parwez in over 300 places!!
How practical for the majority of the Muslims of the world who are non Arab to 1) Learn Arabic 2) Then read non conventional translations to understand/implement the Qur'an?
Faced with such a dillema, a tradionalist Muslim may simply respond by "Go with the majority of translators" and close the case!! So if 8 out of 10 translators are saying Signs can mean miracles as well and that Allah can suspend laws of nature when He chooses, then who cares about the other two? If the majority of translators "Salat" means ritual prayer only, then who cares about the other two?
-
Peace mubashir.
Only trust in your Creator.HE explains, teaches,... HIS Koran. Of course you can check out translations, views, etc....
But at the end, there is a criteria, GOD is the only true translator for every individual.
The verses that clarify this are as clear as day light.
Peace. -
Dear Good Logic
As Allah does not speak directly to non Messengers, people like us are forced to choose when faced with two or more conflicting meanings of certain key terms of the Qur'an.
That exactly is the gist of this while debate. Who is right and why? In the absence of Allah's Messenger who is to decide? Even scholars and those who speak and know Arabic differ !!
We can only hope that sincere seekers of truth could be guided to the truth somehow and continue in our efforts.
Thanks for your input!!
-
Dear Good Logic
As Allah does not speak directly to non Messengers, people like us are forced to choose when faced with two or more conflicting meanings of certain key terms of the Qur'an.
That exactly is the gist of this while debate. Who is right and why? In the absence of Allah's Messenger who is to decide? Even scholars and those who speak and know Arabic differ !!
Thanks for your input!!You give answer yourself here
Dear Good Logic
We can only hope that sincere seekers of truth could be guided to the truth somehow and continue in our efforts.
Thanks for your input!!
Make an effort, you will be only question about what you did and what you knew, not about what you didn't know. Once one knows there is a fundamental problem about understanding of this book. Try to work and put your sincere efforts into understanding this book. Do I think I will be able to understand all of this book in my life time. Likely not. But did I fail to make an effort?
In other words, the ball is back in my court! Now I need to do a few things all over again including reading non conventional translations of the Qur'an !! Do they exist? What if there are difference of interpretation in them? Then what happens? Two non conventional translations are by G A Parwez and Dr Shabbir. Both differ in many places and indeed Dr Shabbir says he differs with Parwez in over 300 places!!
How practical for the majority of the Muslims of the world who are non Arab to 1) Learn Arabic 2) Then read non conventional translations to understand/implement the Qur'an?
Faced with such a dillema, a tradionalist Muslim may simply respond by "Go with the majority of translators" and close the case!! So if 8 out of 10 translators are saying Signs can mean miracles as well and that Allah can suspend laws of nature when He chooses, then who cares about the other two? If the majority of translators "Salat" means ritual prayer only, then who cares about the other two?
It is always in ones court. Even in current mistranslations does it say otherwise any where that one could get away by saying such and such told me so. Even in this world can some one bring that argument in court of law and win?
Brother forget worrying about others just worry about yourself. What can I do and what am I doing?
-
Miracles and Quran
The issue I want to raise is whether Allah sticks to His Ways/Laws (By choice) or not. Does He chooses, sometimes, to change laws of nature?
...
It is important that we establish what miracles are and if not with the Ministry of the blessed Rasool Muhammad, did they play an important role with Messengers before him?
Would appreciate any input on this issue. Thanks in advance.
Salam Mubashir,
As usual D haven't read all the posts, and haven't read what Parwez and Dr. Shabbir wrote.. please bear with me..
and maybe you could refer me to the book or link.. thank you..on the subject of miracles..what is your arabic for miracle?
is it or is it ?
if former then i would argue that no where in the Quran refers miracle as mu3jiza, oth the term 3ajaza would mean cripple rather than empowerment as what miracles of the prophets would suggest.if the latter is implied than it is no different than the creation of the world and the heavens, the humans and the jinns.. they are the law of Allah SWT.. it's non ammendable from the begining..i suppose that's why the secrecy..
i come to realize that naskh doesn't necessarily mean amendment.. but rather exceptional laws; writing of laws on a special case basis..wallahua3lam,
johan -
Salam Johan
Please substitute miracles for Signs that relate to laws of nature suspended by Allah for various reasons. Please note none of these relate to the blessed Muhammad's ministry (who was not supported by any such signs) but are discussed in the Qur'an for previous Messengers.
To read relevant verses, Dr Shabbir's QXP (Quran as it explains itself) can be read here.
http//ourbeacon.com/?page_id=11605
Parwez's exposition of the Qur'an can be read here.
http//www.tolueislam.org/Parwez/expo/exposition.htm
Both the above believe when Allah says He does not change His ways, there is no possibility of miracles/Signs. They try to explain them away in their best way as events that do not suggest any events in which nature laws are suspended. For instance for the birth of Jesus, they reject the possibility of a virgin birth and suggest Mary did get married and conceived in the usual manner.
Argument against the above is made thus by a Quran based brother
If God does not change a 'system', then what did God stop doing in the following verse which He did before?
Something was clearly stopped ? What was it?
017059
"And We refrain from sending signs / miracles (Arabic bil-ayati), only because the former generations treated them as false We sent the she-camel to the Thamud to open their eyes, but they treated her wrongfully We only send the signs by way of a warning"This verse in one single stroke in my opinion, puts an end to the claims of those that deny portents ever being received by communities before Prophet Muhammad. Something 'was' clearly stopped by God as the previous people denied it. It cannot be 'verses' as the Quran came with verses.
What was sent to the communities before which they denied and which God stopped from sending any more? This is a simple question.
To anyone who clearly understands Arabic, the 'text' is clear. God says "wama mana'ana an nursila bil-ayati illa .." People can make up their own translations and interpolations all day long, but no one on Earth can change clear Arabic and sincere believers bear clear witness to God?s words.
6101 is clearly negating the claim in 6100 i.e. How can God have sons and daughters when he has no consort? This has nothing to do with God's ability to suspend laws if He so wills! He doesn't beget - Yes, but if he wants a man to be born of a mother alone, He simply says 'kun'! This is no different from when he desired the creation of the first man, He simply said "Kun"! - and then the process simply began (359)
Furthermore, 1064 talks about 'kalimati'. (i.e. that there is no changing (tabdeel) in the words of God). This once again has no connection with God's ability to suspend his laws if He so wills.
The simple question remains. What did God suspend in 1759, if He does not alter His ways?
But let us go back to the fundamental question. What did God stop / withhold / arrest / prevent / refrain / suspend (mana) in 1759 going forward that He had sent to previous communities? Secondly, how could He stop / arrest something if He did not alter His ways?