Qur'an and Miracles
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Dear BKanwar2 you say
"...Dear Brother consider yourself a new born baby. Wipe off all brain washing that we had. It is difficult but need to work on it. Then let us try to learn the world with new glasses on. Also try to learn Arabic to understand Quran. One can learn to lead a good life without Quran. In fact in my opinion one is far better off without current translation than with it...."
In other words, the ball is back in my court! Now I need to do a few things all over again including reading non conventional translations of the Qur'an !! Do they exist? What if there are difference of interpretation in them? Then what happens? Two non conventional translations are by G A Parwez and Dr Shabbir. Both differ in many places and indeed Dr Shabbir says he differs with Parwez in over 300 places!!
How practical for the majority of the Muslims of the world who are non Arab to 1) Learn Arabic 2) Then read non conventional translations to understand/implement the Qur'an?
Faced with such a dillema, a tradionalist Muslim may simply respond by "Go with the majority of translators" and close the case!! So if 8 out of 10 translators are saying Signs can mean miracles as well and that Allah can suspend laws of nature when He chooses, then who cares about the other two? If the majority of translators "Salat" means ritual prayer only, then who cares about the other two?
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Peace mubashir.
Only trust in your Creator.HE explains, teaches,... HIS Koran. Of course you can check out translations, views, etc....
But at the end, there is a criteria, GOD is the only true translator for every individual.
The verses that clarify this are as clear as day light.
Peace. -
Dear Good Logic
As Allah does not speak directly to non Messengers, people like us are forced to choose when faced with two or more conflicting meanings of certain key terms of the Qur'an.
That exactly is the gist of this while debate. Who is right and why? In the absence of Allah's Messenger who is to decide? Even scholars and those who speak and know Arabic differ !!
We can only hope that sincere seekers of truth could be guided to the truth somehow and continue in our efforts.
Thanks for your input!!
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Dear Good Logic
As Allah does not speak directly to non Messengers, people like us are forced to choose when faced with two or more conflicting meanings of certain key terms of the Qur'an.
That exactly is the gist of this while debate. Who is right and why? In the absence of Allah's Messenger who is to decide? Even scholars and those who speak and know Arabic differ !!
Thanks for your input!!You give answer yourself here
Dear Good Logic
We can only hope that sincere seekers of truth could be guided to the truth somehow and continue in our efforts.
Thanks for your input!!
Make an effort, you will be only question about what you did and what you knew, not about what you didn't know. Once one knows there is a fundamental problem about understanding of this book. Try to work and put your sincere efforts into understanding this book. Do I think I will be able to understand all of this book in my life time. Likely not. But did I fail to make an effort?
In other words, the ball is back in my court! Now I need to do a few things all over again including reading non conventional translations of the Qur'an !! Do they exist? What if there are difference of interpretation in them? Then what happens? Two non conventional translations are by G A Parwez and Dr Shabbir. Both differ in many places and indeed Dr Shabbir says he differs with Parwez in over 300 places!!
How practical for the majority of the Muslims of the world who are non Arab to 1) Learn Arabic 2) Then read non conventional translations to understand/implement the Qur'an?
Faced with such a dillema, a tradionalist Muslim may simply respond by "Go with the majority of translators" and close the case!! So if 8 out of 10 translators are saying Signs can mean miracles as well and that Allah can suspend laws of nature when He chooses, then who cares about the other two? If the majority of translators "Salat" means ritual prayer only, then who cares about the other two?
It is always in ones court. Even in current mistranslations does it say otherwise any where that one could get away by saying such and such told me so. Even in this world can some one bring that argument in court of law and win?
Brother forget worrying about others just worry about yourself. What can I do and what am I doing?
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Miracles and Quran
The issue I want to raise is whether Allah sticks to His Ways/Laws (By choice) or not. Does He chooses, sometimes, to change laws of nature?
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It is important that we establish what miracles are and if not with the Ministry of the blessed Rasool Muhammad, did they play an important role with Messengers before him?
Would appreciate any input on this issue. Thanks in advance.
Salam Mubashir,
As usual D haven't read all the posts, and haven't read what Parwez and Dr. Shabbir wrote.. please bear with me..
and maybe you could refer me to the book or link.. thank you..on the subject of miracles..what is your arabic for miracle?
is it or is it ?
if former then i would argue that no where in the Quran refers miracle as mu3jiza, oth the term 3ajaza would mean cripple rather than empowerment as what miracles of the prophets would suggest.if the latter is implied than it is no different than the creation of the world and the heavens, the humans and the jinns.. they are the law of Allah SWT.. it's non ammendable from the begining..i suppose that's why the secrecy..
i come to realize that naskh doesn't necessarily mean amendment.. but rather exceptional laws; writing of laws on a special case basis..wallahua3lam,
johan -
Salam Johan
Please substitute miracles for Signs that relate to laws of nature suspended by Allah for various reasons. Please note none of these relate to the blessed Muhammad's ministry (who was not supported by any such signs) but are discussed in the Qur'an for previous Messengers.
To read relevant verses, Dr Shabbir's QXP (Quran as it explains itself) can be read here.
http//ourbeacon.com/?page_id=11605
Parwez's exposition of the Qur'an can be read here.
http//www.tolueislam.org/Parwez/expo/exposition.htm
Both the above believe when Allah says He does not change His ways, there is no possibility of miracles/Signs. They try to explain them away in their best way as events that do not suggest any events in which nature laws are suspended. For instance for the birth of Jesus, they reject the possibility of a virgin birth and suggest Mary did get married and conceived in the usual manner.
Argument against the above is made thus by a Quran based brother
If God does not change a 'system', then what did God stop doing in the following verse which He did before?
Something was clearly stopped ? What was it?
017059
"And We refrain from sending signs / miracles (Arabic bil-ayati), only because the former generations treated them as false We sent the she-camel to the Thamud to open their eyes, but they treated her wrongfully We only send the signs by way of a warning"This verse in one single stroke in my opinion, puts an end to the claims of those that deny portents ever being received by communities before Prophet Muhammad. Something 'was' clearly stopped by God as the previous people denied it. It cannot be 'verses' as the Quran came with verses.
What was sent to the communities before which they denied and which God stopped from sending any more? This is a simple question.
To anyone who clearly understands Arabic, the 'text' is clear. God says "wama mana'ana an nursila bil-ayati illa .." People can make up their own translations and interpolations all day long, but no one on Earth can change clear Arabic and sincere believers bear clear witness to God?s words.
6101 is clearly negating the claim in 6100 i.e. How can God have sons and daughters when he has no consort? This has nothing to do with God's ability to suspend laws if He so wills! He doesn't beget - Yes, but if he wants a man to be born of a mother alone, He simply says 'kun'! This is no different from when he desired the creation of the first man, He simply said "Kun"! - and then the process simply began (359)
Furthermore, 1064 talks about 'kalimati'. (i.e. that there is no changing (tabdeel) in the words of God). This once again has no connection with God's ability to suspend his laws if He so wills.
The simple question remains. What did God suspend in 1759, if He does not alter His ways?
But let us go back to the fundamental question. What did God stop / withhold / arrest / prevent / refrain / suspend (mana) in 1759 going forward that He had sent to previous communities? Secondly, how could He stop / arrest something if He did not alter His ways?
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Salam Johan
Please substitute miracles for Signs that relate to laws of nature suspended by Allah for various reasons. Please note none of these relate to the blessed Muhammad's ministry (who was not supported by any such signs) but are discussed in the Qur'an for previous Messengers.
To read relevant verses, Dr Shabbir's QXP (Quran as it explains itself) can be read here.
http//ourbeacon.com/?page_id=11605
Parwez's exposition of the Qur'an can be read here.
http//www.tolueislam.org/Parwez/expo/exposition.htm
Both the above believe when Allah says He does not change His ways, there is no possibility of miracles/Signs. They try to explain them away in their best way as events that do not suggest any events in which nature laws are suspended. For instance for the birth of Jesus, they reject the possibility of a virgin birth and suggest Mary did get married and conceived in the usual manner.
Argument against the above is made thus by a Quran based brother
If God does not change a 'system', then what did God stop doing in the following verse which He did before?
Something was clearly stopped What was it?
017059
"And We refrain from sending signs / miracles (Arabic bil-ayati), only because the former generations treated them as false We sent the she-camel to the Thamud to open their eyes, but they treated her wrongfully We only send the signs by way of a warning"This verse in one single stroke in my opinion, puts an end to the claims of those that deny portents ever being received by communities before Prophet Muhammad. Something 'was' clearly stopped by God as the previous people denied it. It cannot be 'verses' as the Quran came with verses.
What was sent to the communities before which they denied and which God stopped from sending any more? This is a simple question.
To anyone who clearly understands Arabic, the 'text' is clear. God says "wama mana'ana an nursila bil-ayati illa .." People can make up their own translations and interpolations all day long, but no one on Earth can change clear Arabic and sincere believers bear clear witness to Gods words.
6101 is clearly negating the claim in 6100 i.e. How can God have sons and daughters when he has no consort? This has nothing to do with God's ability to suspend laws if He so wills! He doesn't beget - Yes, but if he wants a man to be born of a mother alone, He simply says 'kun'! This is no different from when he desired the creation of the first man, He simply said "Kun"! - and then the process simply began (359)
Furthermore, 1064 talks about 'kalimati'. (i.e. that there is no changing (tabdeel) in the words of God). This once again has no connection with God's ability to suspend his laws if He so wills.
The simple question remains. What did God suspend in 1759, if He does not alter His ways?
But let us go back to the fundamental question. What did God stop / withhold / arrest / prevent / refrain / suspend (mana) in 1759 going forward that He had sent to previous communities? Secondly, how could He stop / arrest something if He did not alter His ways?
Nothing was "clearly" changed. Those translations are mainstream and wrong. Use modern arabic as much as you want, without examining the lexicons you'll never get a good translations
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Salam Johan
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Both the above believe when Allah says He does not change His ways, there is no possibility of miracles/Signs. They try to explain them away in their best way as events that do not suggest any events in which nature laws are suspended. For instance for the birth of Jesus, they reject the possibility of a virgin birth and suggest Mary did get married and conceived in the usual manner.Brother, I believe that there is no suspension in Allah's law.
What we see as a suspension is only a layered understanding that we haven't reached the point of comprehension.
At the time of prophet 3eesa AS it might have been seen that the birth is something extraordinary(miracle/suspension of law) was observed, but now with the advent of modern medicine we have understood that it can be done with a proper procedures; and this what IMHO Allah SWT meant by the aya/sign; the aya/sign are the fundamentals of laws at work..
I believe Alif Lam Meem, etc will lead us to the fundamentals of the structure of the world we live in that one day we will unlock based on guidance by Allah SWT to the believers..peace
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As Allah does not speak directly to non Messengers, people like us are forced to choose when faced with two or more conflicting meanings of certain key terms of the Qur'an.
Salaam,
Who said Allah does not speak to non-messengers and/or speak to messengers?
As per 4251 Allah communicate with every bashar. Who is bashar? Bashar is any normal human being as per 1926.
May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path pr
mmKhan -
Dear MM Khan
Mirza Qadiyani said the same thing yet the Muslim Ummah rejected him! Sufias say the same but many, who say Door of Wahi is closed, reject their claims. Two people can claim to be receipients of inspiration although they may be differing over a key Qur'anic concept. If that happens, who is to say who is right and who is wrong?
Perhaps you need to explain the verses you quoted in a bit more detail!! You may want to keep the next verse in mind before commenting
4252 And thus, too, have We revealed unto thee a life-giving message, at Our behest. thou didst not know what revelation is, nor what faith but We have caused this to be a light, whereby We guide whom We will of Our servants and, verily, thou, too, shalt guide onto the straight way ?
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Dear MM Khan
Mirza Qadiyani said the same thing yet the Muslim Ummah rejected him! Sufias say the same but many, who say Door of Wahi is closed, reject their claims. Two people can claim to be receipients of inspiration although they may be differing over a key Qur'anic concept. If that happens, who is to say who is right and who is wrong?
Perhaps you need to explain the verses you quoted in a bit more detail!! You may want to keep the next verse in mind before commenting
4252 And thus, too, have We revealed unto thee a life-giving message, at Our behest. thou didst not know what revelation is, nor what faith but We have caused this to be a light, whereby We guide whom We will of Our servants and, verily, thou, too, shalt guide onto the straight way ?
Salaam,
I am sure it will help you to understand better if you delete everything that is in the brackets.
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Dear Bender,
Mirza Qadiyani claimed to have received inspiration/revelation. Why do we then reject his claims as a Messenger of Allah?
There are many Evangelists who claim Jesus (who they regard as God) speaks to them. Should we believe them?
I think inspiration for matters of Deen comes to common people through Allah's Messengers only.
Thanks.
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Salaam,
I cannot dare to reject any aayat.
We have to think about ourselves. We are not to answer for Mirza Qadiyani or any Evangelist or whoever, we have to answer for our deed. There might be many messengers but we don't know them because AlQuraan did not confirm them by their names. So nothing to worry. Just believe in what Allah said in His Book.
When Allah said He communicates with any Bashar, how can you deny Him? Anyways, it is up to you either to believe it or not, but I cannot deny anything mentioned in AlQuraan inshaAllah, until and unless my Lord want it to be.
BTW, you did not bring up any aayat on your claim mentioned below!
I think inspiration for matters of Deen comes to common people through Allah's Messengers only.
May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path pr
mmKhan -
Sometimes the questions looks like whether to follow people's opinions or God?
Some need rituals, some don't. Some need surrogate "mama" to lead them. rotfl
This scholar said so and that other so... ??? Is my papa right or yours? rotflBUT,
How to follow God?
Well, didn't He made us in His image? Meaning there is a part of Him in us probably the mind/conscience.Do take responsibility for your own Str8 Path, and, after death God will inform us all what we did, because we shall all return to Him as He says in the Qur'an.
In the meanwhile, one of the best approaches and overall explanations can be found here
http//www.quransmessage.com/ -
Salam mubashir and all
Salam Johan
Please substitute miracles for Signs that relate to laws of nature suspended by Allah for various reasons. Please note none of these relate to the blessed Muhammad's ministry (who was not supported by any such signs) but are discussed in the Qur'an for previous Messengers.
To read relevant verses, Dr Shabbir's QXP (Quran as it explains itself) can be read here.
http//ourbeacon.com/?page_id=11605
Parwez's exposition of the Qur'an can be read here.
http//www.tolueislam.org/Parwez/expo/exposition.htm
Both the above believe when Allah says He does not change His ways, there is no possibility of miracles/Signs. They try to explain them away in their best way as events that do not suggest any events in which nature laws are suspended. For instance for the birth of Jesus, they reject the possibility of a virgin birth and suggest Mary did get married and conceived in the usual manner.
Argument against the above is made thus by a Quran based brother
If God does not change a 'system', then what did God stop doing in the following verse which He did before?
Something was clearly stopped ? What was it?
017059
"And We refrain from sending signs / miracles (Arabic bil-ayati), only because the former generations treated them as false We sent the she-camel to the Thamud to open their eyes, but they treated her wrongfully We only send the signs by way of a warning"the camel was a sign
This verse in one single stroke in my opinion, puts an end to the claims of those that deny portents ever being received by communities before Prophet Muhammad. Something 'was' clearly stopped by God as the previous people denied it. It cannot be 'verses' as the Quran came with verses.
Perhaps the complete revelation?What was sent to the communities before which they denied and which God stopped from sending any more? This is a simple question.
To anyone who clearly understands Arabic, the 'text' is clear. God says "wama mana'ana an nursila bil-ayati illa .." People can make up their own translations and interpolations all day long, but no one on Earth can change clear Arabic and sincere believers bear clear witness to God?s words.
6101 is clearly negating the claim in 6100 i.e. How can God have sons and daughters when he has no consort? This has nothing to do with God's ability to suspend laws if He so wills! He doesn't beget - Yes, but if he wants a man to be born of a mother alone, He simply says 'kun'! This is no different from when he desired the creation of the first man, He simply said "Kun"! - and then the process simply began (359)
Furthermore, 1064 talks about 'kalimati'. (i.e. that there is no changing (tabdeel) in the words of God). This once again has no connection with God's ability to suspend his laws if He so wills.
The simple question remains. What did God suspend in 1759, if He does not alter His ways?
But let us go back to the fundamental question. What did God stop / withhold / arrest / prevent / refrain / suspend (mana) in 1759 going forward that He had sent to previous communities? Secondly, how could He stop / arrest something if He did not alter His ways?
perhaps the revelation and not a miracle.? However, I have personally no problem with the statement, that God made or make again miracles. He does this all the time. Only we do not see any.
God is all-powerful beyond our understanding and comprehension-deny the possiblity of miracles, I find personally arrogant .Who says that God does not interfere in his creation?If a theorie is based only up one verse, it seems there is no ground for this claim.
but is this discussion really relevant for the belief in God?
Anyone who believe in God, confirm that God can make miracles IF HE WANTS.
The dispute is about the question wheter GOD REALLY DID MIRACLES.
is it so important?
salam