God's Care

Lena

Salaam

I disagree.

Please look at my post above and what Good Logic wrote that is against of what you said above. Please be careful while saying anything on Allah and take a look at the following

16116
16116 And do not say about what your tongues assert of untruth, "This is lawful and this is unlawful," to invent falsehood about Allah. Indeed, those who invent falsehood about Allah will not succeed.

May Allah protect us all and guide us to His true path pr
mmKhan

Salaam and thanks for your post. I did use the words " sometimes seems to me" (during times when I feel doubtful about my faith) but mostly I try to focus on the righteous actions I can do to help others who are suffering.

Just to clarify, how do you see the situation when someone is in so much pysychological or physical pain they reach the end of their limits and they kill themselves? Are you saying that the pain they are feeling is God's punishment on them? If they were righteous believers they would not ever be in that position ? Or that they could tolerate more pain and gave up too soon?

Lena

IAMOP

Just to clarify, how do you see the situation when someone is in so much pysychological or physical pain they reach the end of their limits and they kill themselves? Are you saying that the pain they are feeling is God's punishment on them? If they were righteous believers they would not ever be in that position ? Or that they could tolerate more pain and gave up too soon?

Lena

If they were correct in their understanding of the truth then the pain would be of little importance. They lose hope because a certain belief they hold somewhere is actually a delusion. When one loses these delusions everything becomes fine once more.

http//journaleast.com/wp-content/uploads/Burning-Monk-Photo.jpg

Carlee

^Obviously does not know what real pain is. Mental/psychological will always be greater than physical in the end. Why the heck do you think some clinically depressed people end their lives? Because they believe what they'll physically go through doesn't amount to the mental aspect. Heck, someone could possibly be laughing while dying if they're crazy enough.

Had you a clue you wouldn't hold the position you currently have.

Peace Carlee.

We humans want it both ways, if things are fine we ignore GOD, and when things go badly wrong we blame GOD.

GOD has given humans a life span on earth, only known by HIM.HE has His reasons on how long the individual lives.

God has also given the humans the freedom of choice. Each individual has free will. We make our own decision. However some of us play tyrants and abuse their power and mess up. God is keeping HIS part of the bargain , He is not stopping people making a decision, even if they make bad decision, but GOD is just this is what HE says

2362 ? We never burden anyone beyond their means, and We record the truth ( about each individual). No one will suffer injustice.?

( Does everyone know this? Should they?)

2363 ? Because their minds are oblivious to this, they commit works that do not conform with justice; Their works are evil.?

2364 ? Then when disaster stikes them, they complain.?

2364 ? Do not complain now; ( you decided to go it alone, you do not need GOD) You have given up all help from us now.?

Nothing I spoke about regarded free choice and you re-pasted the same verses.

Salaam,

These aayaats may help in understanding the truth inshaAllah.

4147
4147 What would Allah do with your punishment if you are grateful and believe? And ever is Allah Appreciative and Knowing.

3139
3139 So do not weaken and do not grieve, and you will be superior if you are believers.

682
682 They who believe and do not mix their belief with injustice - those will have security, and they are guided.

3118
3119
3120

3118 O you who have believed, do not take as intimates those other than yourselves, for they will not spare you ruin. They wish you would have hardship. Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, and what their breasts conceal is greater. We have certainly made clear to you the signs, if you have brains.
3119 Here you are loving them but they are not loving you, while you believe in the Scripture - all of it. And when they meet you, they say, "We believe." But when they are alone, they bite their fingertips at you in rage. Say, "Die in your rage. Indeed, Allah is Knowing of that within the breasts."
3120 If good holds you, it distresses them; but if harm reaches you, they rejoice at it. And if you are patient and fear Allah , their plot will not harm you at all. Indeed, Allah is encompassing of what they do.

1044
1044 Indeed, Allah does not wrong the people at all, but it is the people who are wronging themselves.

Hope this may help inshaAllah.

May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path pr
mmKhan

Implying that my belief would have prevented the experienced mental/psychological pain (which is still occurring) when it didn't.
This has nothing to do with who and who I haven't made friends with.

good_logic

Peace Carlee.

You got me wrong as well.
I was talking about those who run the human systems. If there was care, fairness and compassion in a society, they will help each other and care for each other.I also do not pretend to know how they feel or what they are going through, but the Creator does

2775 There is nothing in the heavens and the earth that is hidden from GOD; Everything is in a profound record.?

Also may be there is a reward for those who suffer unjustly in this life. HE knows HIS creation every single individual, and

2777 Your Lord is the one who judges among them in accordance with his rules ( and law). HE is the ALMIGHTY, the OMNISCIENT.?

I do not value this life, it is an illusion, what my Lord has is better.

I was trying to say to you and to all those who suffer,that as far as the Creator is concerned, there is hope for them.

May the Lord give us hope and understanding and patience to keep trusting in HIM.
Peace.

IAMOP

^Obviously does not know what real pain is. Mental/psychological will always be greater than physical in the end. Why the heck do you think some clinically depressed people end their lives? Because they believe what they'll physically go through doesn't amount to the mental aspect. Heck, someone could possibly be laughing while dying if they're crazy enough.

Had you a clue you wouldn't hold the position you currently have.

Such a rash comment! This is the internet, and those who you talk to come from all walks of life. It's easy to dismiss a block of text but everyone has their own life story. For the record I have been clinically depressed myself for the larger part of my life. Yet here I stand with it totally cleared away. Even disregarding this, what I said is factual. If God exists then all pain has its purpose and essentially EVERY reason for suicide is the result of despair of God, hopelessness. Until one sees the wisdom behind the pain one cannot alleviate the pain.

The truth is that as long as you identify with your body you will suffer. Your true being is not touched by pain or pleasure. It is perfectly still and complete in itself. A person who is in tune with this is not really affected by pain. It hurts all the same yet it does not touch the self. The person pictured who immolated himself has grasped this truth. As he burnt away he did not flinch while others would have been screaming in pain. Many people have immolated themselves in this precise fashion each of them calmly burning to ashes.

One of the names of God is the peace/the bestower of peace (as-salam). When you put your trust in God and submit to his will, this peace opens up to you. It is a boundless ocean that most only see the surface of and the surface is chaotically wavey. Nirvana is real and I talk from experience. Don't dismiss things you have no knowledge of. If you don't agree, fine. Just remember everyone has their own story to tell. You are not alone in experiencing pain, there are 7 billion of us alongside you.

johan

...
Some stuff are not caused by people at all, like certain birth defects not due to human behaviors like drinking or smoking, like the above mentioned defect, is known to happen randomly
....

I think you've forgotten the aim of living in this world..
the aim is not to have fun in this life, though it's a blessing to be able to have them both..
(if you're in with the reincarnation theory, then maybe they did bad in their past lives that warrants them getting this karma?)

Think of it as responsibility, the more tools/facilities/goodness the more you're accountable for it's usage..
some people are given less because Allah SWT knows that they are more likely to fail..

wallahua3lam

unknownuser

Hi Carlee, a quick note on what God says in the Qur'an I am still struggling with a lot of God's ways my self...but in the Qur'an as far as I have seen God doesn't deny his involvement in bad things anyways!!...

There is a verse where he says to ask the Christians and Jews, how could they claim themselves as the children/loved ones of God, if he allows suffering to be inflicted on them. And I believe here he is refuting the idea that we are indeed children of God, or that God's love is unconditional.

Also just now I was reading and I remembered your post he says that if God inflicts harm on you only he can lift it.

"And if Allah should touch you with adversity, there is no remover of it except Him; and if He intends for you good, then there is no repeller of His bounty. He causes it to reach whom He wills of His servants. And He is the Forgiving, the Merciful" (10107)

Also there is the concept that not everything that seems bad is actually bad..and vice versa but that's not your point I am sure.

But what I feel is that God, does test our faith, he keeps saying when humans are blissful and enjoying their life they are quick to forget me!..and that is human nature we are ungrateful. I used to feel so bad that God labelled us humans as ungrateful, but I am thinking now maybe it is not a blaming statement, as much as demonstrating how God knows our nature, and that's part of what shows the truth of him being the creator and knowing us better than we know our selves...at least we we look at our selves at fist glance.

I really believe suffering is a way that forces human to reflect on deeper question, I mean if I have no problems in my life I wouldn't be confronted every now and then by big questions and why on earth was I created you know?

All I am saying in the Qur'an God doesn't deny bad things to be related to him, however there is a verse that says that bad things are inflicted by ourselves while Good things are inflicted by him. So...still I am trying to figure out the whole message...

1044
However God here says he is not unjust to people, people are unjust to themselves, it is not as a previous post explained `wrongs us', justice in God's eyes could be severe pain and suffering. So yeah that's the verse I was talking about and I guess I just answered my self . Doing wrong implies that he doesn't do anything hurtfull, that is not what the verse implies as far as I can read.

That is just purely my ramblings I am still someone who for the first time trying to read the Qur'an...so I don't know just a thought.

Take care and I hope you are not unhappy at the moment

Sorry that I didn't quote any of the verses, I have a phobia against numbers lol.

Edit I am surprised most of the replies by fellow Muslims here seem to have this tone that God has nothing to do with bad things, which is strange because I am so used to Muslims explaining that God doesn't work that way, people who are happy could be happy for the wrong reasons, and they could be misguided and God leaves them to their pleasures. And that he does test our faith with suffering?
Even some say it is a sign when things are going wrong in your life that maybe God is nudging you.
It is not as simple as it seems I realize but this is how most Muslims I have seen perceive God. At the end of the day God's sole concern is that we worship him according to the Qur'an. So...I don't know, I believe our happiness stands on understanding that is what our purpose. MY OPINION AND PERCEPTION

The idea that God is blissful all the time is more of a christian thing...well unless you are westboro baptist church

unknownuser

Oh also I didn't see you opened a discussion about Clinical depression.

Carlee...I am sorry...I am having a lot of trouble understanding psychiatry these days...they have a lot of claims of chemical imbalance being the main reason behind depression but not a single proof, till now and it has been quiet sometime...I graduated pharmacy and we were taught the many hypothesis that surrounds depression being a chemical problem. Not a single proof.

Alzeheimer's has proof, Parkinson's has proof, but not depression and bipolar and schizophrenia there is not a single blood or diagnostic tool other than the objectivity of a human eye, which is what is involved in the idea of God as well...still people don't seem to argue that one much.

I am definitley someone who struggled with depression for the longest time in my life, and suicide was my ultimate solution for...actually I think for the first time this year I have actually started to feel calmer.

I did a lot of research, ultimately the best explanation I found for depression, is perceiving the world as hopeless due a certain circumstance, I know a lot don't like that idea, but it is finally when I realized what is it that I hate about life so much, and feeling so helpless about it is what made me feel well then what is the point.

I really think life these days is overwhelmed with material gains, that emotions have no time to figure or sort themselves out, and we bottle up a lot of frustrations that makes our eyes unable to see anything positive. And medicine has taken an approach of we need to be as 'efficient' as possible, and also an approach of we don't need to fix things at the core level, other wise you lose the business.

Sounds brutal but unfortunately that's humans being concerned they will starve to death if they do otherwise. I mean I even heard doctors giving painkillers to addicts and they know they are abusing it and them saying...'What can I do?' which sounds like huh...

I don't know what I am trying to say, other than that you need to dig deeper and deeper to figure how things are worked out in this world, things are not what they appear at all. Especially when money is involved.

I used to take antidepressants but I couldn't stomach that zombie feeling it felt like if I killed someone it would still be of no matter, which sounds like any mind altering drug, but it just doesn't cause you to crash cars accidentally that is why it is ok by everyone. They do help when the feeling is really intense, but I really believe people who experience that (I could be very wrong) should really do heavy heavy soul searching into why do they think they feel this way. Something as simple as their eating habits, to being abused. But I believe emotions are there to tell us something you know...I mean...even pain indicates there is something going on that needs to be looked at...it is a symptom I guess that's the word I want to use. It is not the problem.

Meh...more ramblings )

Edit And feeling hopeless is not something that is foreign in the Qur'an, there is a verse that I remember when I first read it I cried a lot because I really understood what she was saying, where Miriam pleas God to stop the suffering, and wishes she was something forgotten I know that feeling oh so well, and I was so glad that finally I knew that it is not lack of faith and that God doesn't hate me for feeling so depressed that I'd rather disappear.

And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm tree. She said, Oh, I wish I had died before this and was in oblivion, forgotten. (1923)

But he -Gabriel -called her from below her, Do not grieve; your Lord has provided beneath you a stream. (1924)

SORRY FOR THE TEXT WALL!

justamuslim

there are different kinds of suffering. example - if a strong wind suddenly blows knocking me down and i end up breaking a leg - this would be a bad thing which was not self-inflicted by me or by another human being.

good_logic

Peace justamuslim.

For every example, there is a counter example

A strong wind could blow you down, then you just get up and walk away, nothing broken.

Or even a hurricane comes all of a sudden and you happen to be safe inside. While it devastated all around you, you stayed safe.

Peace.

Meteora

I have experiences in that field too...I hope the better for him (or her).

Carlee

Peace Carlee.

You got me wrong as well.
I was talking about those who run the human systems. If there was care, fairness and compassion in a society, they will help each other and care for each other.I also do not pretend to know how they feel or what they are going through, but the Creator does

2775 There is nothing in the heavens and the earth that is hidden from GOD; Everything is in a profound record.?

Also may be there is a reward for those who suffer unjustly in this life. HE knows HIS creation every single individual, and

2777 Your Lord is the one who judges among them in accordance with his rules ( and law). HE is the ALMIGHTY, the OMNISCIENT.?

I do not value this life, it is an illusion, what my Lord has is better.

I was trying to say to you and to all those who suffer,that as far as the Creator is concerned, there is hope for them.

May the Lord give us hope and understanding and patience to keep trusting in HIM.
Peace.

Explain how there can possibly be a god with boundless mercy (or enough to make it even a considerable trait) when it claims to be omnipotent (can do anything imaginable or beyond) and loving of those who're good-doers, while so many of those people can't help but grieve every day and wish they'd rather die (when they aren't at fault or to blame). In fact I'll ask a better question say a nation's army is defeated and that nation had a woman, and the winning army was about to take over and it was determined all the women from the losing nation were going to be permanent sex slaves, and the woman ends her life accordingly. She goes to Hell because she gave up on God's grace (what god and what grace) am I right?

Such a rash comment! This is the internet, and those who you talk to come from all walks of life. It's easy to dismiss a block of text but everyone has their own life story. For the record I have been clinically depressed myself for the larger part of my life. Yet here I stand with it totally cleared away. Even disregarding this, what I said is factual. If God exists then all pain has its purpose and essentially EVERY reason for suicide is the result of despair of God, hopelessness. Until one sees the wisdom behind the pain one cannot alleviate the pain.

The truth is that as long as you identify with your body you will suffer. Your true being is not touched by pain or pleasure. It is perfectly still and complete in itself. A person who is in tune with this is not really affected by pain. It hurts all the same yet it does not touch the self. The person pictured who immolated himself has grasped this truth. As he burnt away he did not flinch while others would have been screaming in pain. Many people have immolated themselves in this precise fashion each of them calmly burning to ashes.

One of the names of God is the peace/the bestower of peace (as-salam). When you put your trust in God and submit to his will, this peace opens up to you. It is a boundless ocean that most only see the surface of and the surface is chaotically wavey. Nirvana is real and I talk from experience. Don't dismiss things you have no knowledge of. If you don't agree, fine. Just remember everyone has their own story to tell. You are not alone in experiencing pain, there are 7 billion of us alongside you.

So there are 7 billion people (the world population) going through what I'm going through now? What a laugh.

Never mind the rest of the nonsensical crap you posted. We all have to be akin to Chinese monks now to achieve happiness. You're a person not affected by physical pain yet you're one of the people on Earth who use the internet on their free times.

In the end you somehow managed to make your life bearable. The fact you think this is possible for everyone (who tries to live by a certain book) is the actual ignorance in this topic. As I said I've read the Quran several times and tried living by it, several times. Nothing.

Record yourself immolating and I'll believe you're laughable "I'm no longer affected by pain" statement.

Not that I brought physical pain up once in this topic. Do you read, bro?

I think you've forgotten the aim of living in this world..
the aim is not to have fun in this life, though it's a blessing to be able to have them both..
(if you're in with the reincarnation theory, then maybe they did bad in their past lives that warrants them getting this karma?)

Think of it as responsibility, the more tools/facilities/goodness the more you're accountable for it's usage..
some people are given less because Allah SWT knows that they are more likely to fail..

wallahua3lam

If you've been reading my posts you'd know I wasn't complaining about not having fun. It's about suffering badly mentally, and for pretty much the entire life I remember. Hardly ever the same thing.

nevashiva I read your posts and they are indeed word quilts. 'Tsok I do that sometimes too, but I work now and hardly have the time to do other stuff. Maybe I'll respond to it later.

P.S. I don't see why there isn't proof for medicinal treatments when it's known there are some that alleviate it. When they restore this balance the person is better, so how're they not due to imbalances? Sure life experiences are related...otherwise, what's the cause to mbalance besides perhaps genetics?

good_logic

Peace Carlee.

If we expect GOD to be reasonable, then let us be reasonable.

Do you expect GOD to interfere and act according to how we see it? Like I said GOD has given every human a predetermined time to live on this earth. HE decides what to do according to HIS perfect knowledge.

We cannot have it both ways. Everyone is responsible for themselves, if people choose to mistreat others, etc...They are the cause of suffering not GOD. However those who seek GOD s help, HE will help them.

I do not have to justify to anyone anything , I am not anyone's guardian. There is a direct line to your Creator, if you want HIM to help you ask HIM.
Peace.

Jafar

Peace Carlee..

NOBODY on this forum is "God's official agent"..thus they can only speculate but unfortunately might not give you a definitive answer.. because... you post the question to the wrong destination..

The correct address to post your question is of course to the Maintainer Of All Universes Him (or It) selves..

Having said that; there's a small story on the Quran.. which pretty much resembles your questions and concerns..
(Al-Kahf) 1865-82

Salam / Peace

unknownuser

P.S. I don't see why there isn't proof for medicinal treatments when it's known there are some that alleviate it. When they restore this balance the person is better, so how're they not due to imbalances? Sure life experiences are related...otherwise, what's the cause to mbalance besides perhaps genetics?

Yeah It could be genetics actually like you just get more easily emotional, like some get on weight or muscle mass more easily...

you know what I mean to say is...'I want to think my way out of it.'

But yeah I could be just a patient being stubborn about needing something to be healthy...or I just don't like the stigma of it...so yeah..

But what I meant for example..if you are injured and bleeding, and take pain killers, they will stop the pain, but you will bleed to death and you never felt it.
(This analogy is not true to depression, as in ' not scientifically proven wise'...but I am worried that this is what I would be doing, because I hear a lot of stories about people who are on mood stabilizers who all of a sudden...kill them selves.....so I don't know really). That and the anti-psychiatry documentaries going around help lol.

my very immature opinion, is that it has something to do with perception of life...I don't know...I just feel like crap for needing antidepressants..and as I said I really hate that zombie feeling.../, and I feel I have questions I want answered.

I also had a lot of problems with how God is selective in his love, and his mercy...and that used to frustrate me so much...but I learned by time...that humans are much much worse, and that the demands I want of God I can't do my self...at all...so he is really just in my eyes now that I have seen more of how the world really works...but that could be my perception...but I really know what you mean and I hope you find your answers and peace.

Also I caught your comment about God punishing people for suicide...God in the Qur'an only talked about suicide saying, and people should not kill themselves don't they know I am merciful...he did not...use the usual words he uses to condemn people for doing nasty/idolatry/disbelieving in him hell was not mentioned.

One of the lessons that was hard for me to learn about God, is that as much as he wants me to be wary of his judgment...he wants me to also believe in his mercy and that he is the most merciful...so that's beyond human standards, and humans can forgive amazing things!.....
The story of prophet Yusuf is also a nice story that I liked...cause Yusuf goes through a lot of horrible things even though he is righteous and his brothers who were bad, also realize they wronged him and they are forgiven and Yusuf stresses to them God's mercy.
Even someone enlightened me about Moses killing a man in the moment of rage, and still God forgave him.
I remember a friend of mine before told me that in the Qur'an every time God talks about punishing those who sin, in the next verse he talks about how he is forgiving, and how he will reward who believed.

Anyways take care, and make sure you vent off frequently ).

justamuslim

Peace Carlee.

We cannot have it both ways. Everyone is responsible for themselves, if people choose to mistreat others, etc...They are the cause of suffering not GOD. However those who seek GOD s help, HE will help them.

absolutely agree. i have always tried to live right by God and where did it get me? a lot of pain. but it was caused by others - not God. i should be pretty messed up but thanks to God, i am not. i feel serene and reading the koran is comforting and healing.

Carlee

Appreciate the responses, but I would actually like to know why would an all-powerful and all-merciful god let such terrible things happen to people. The key words here are let happen.

Is it because of some ego caused by Satan's disobediance? If so who honestly gives a crap. If God was so great to his people he would've erased Satan on the spot and made us all happy angelic beings in his heaven.

Secondly once again people talk about suffering due to the actions of others. What about natural disasters?

The correct address to post your question is of course to the Maintainer Of All Universes Him (or It) selves..

The fact I'm posting it here after already trying this several times only tells me there is no such being, or one that gives a crap.

If there is then it's too obsessed w/ making people believe in its existence without giving a clue it exists; it has no feelings or is vulnerable like so many humans yet humans can get no answers to their questions and suffer due to a lack of any direct involvement from it.

good_logic

Peace Carlee.

We have to ask a deeper question of ourselves. GOD is never unjust GOD brings out the true conviction of individuals.

Everyone goes through the trial.Sometimes we do not even know if what we are asking GOD is right.

1711 The human being often prays for something that may harm him/her, thinking that he/she is praying for something good.?

Sometimes we try and give GOD preconditions, ultimatum. It does not work. HE knows our innermost thoughts and intentions

2211 Among the people, there is the one who serves ( and prays to ) GOD conditionally. If things go his/her way, he/she is content. But ,if some adversity befalls him/her, he/she makes an about face. Thus he/she loses both this life and the hereafter. Such is the real loss.? ( You have to stay loyal to GOD? Even if your prayer is not answered?)

All I can say, it is between you and your creator. You choose.

Peace.

Carlee

I see that no one can answer the question.

Plus I never complained that I didn't get what I want in life. I only want to be in a certain mental state, to be happy to be alive even to the slightest degree. The opposite of depressed, and not grieving and desiring to end my life as soon as possible. As I've said, it's not a matter of not having everything be the way you want. It's about one's life being unbearable, scarred by painful memories they can't get rid of; weeping frequently to the point it makes them go mad, and driving them to shoot themselves at any second if they had the means, just as a person would take their hand off a hot stove top.

There can exist nothing that's all-powerful and all-merciful at the same time, if what goes on in this world was and is still allowed. One or both of these can only be half-assed. Unless you can convince otherwise, there's no point in posting stuff that're hardly relevant to what I'm discussing.

johan

I only want to be in a certain mental state, to be happy to be alive even to the slightest degree.

Salam Carlee,

Isn't that what happiness is all about? what fun is all about? what blessing is all about?
maybe you need to pay a price for all those states of existence?
maybe the price is that you need to put more effort to understand it from the Creator's pov?
I believe that the mind is empowering yet can be devastating.

Wallahua3lam,