Status of Lesbians in Quran Alone???
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Lesbian is same as Heterosexual intercourse when not done with the intention of reproducing. They are both base desires (Iblis). We can't conquer all of them. It's not like it makes sense you're going to go to Jahannam for doing either
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koran is clear that sex outside marriage is a major sin. and also who you can marry. although koran doesn't explicitly address lesbian relationships, it is clear that having sexual relations outside marriage (man and woman) is forbidden.
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koran is clear that sex outside marriage is a major sin. and also who you can marry. although koran doesn't explicitly address lesbian relationships, it is clear that having sexual relations outside marriage (man and woman) is forbidden.
Quran is not clear on anything since you use corrupted translations. Sin is religious and non islamic. There is no compulsion in Islam, you can have sex with whoever you want that is a base desire and conquering it is a very good thing ( believe me I experienced a greedless, envy less, lustless state for a few days ) but you can't always conquer them or you'll go mad. Stop being religious because it's stupid
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- Sexual activity is only supposed to take place among the permitted people in the permitted way.
- Same sex partner is not in the list of the permitted. Neither can it be argued by assuming "vice versa".
You know, it simply never ceases to amaze me, how so-called Muslims and fervent servants of a God that is supposed to be good in the absolute sense, who begin and end their talks with greetings of peace, would say with no shame that it is wrong and punishable to be homosexual. The simple and single argument (of many more) of "there is no compulsion in Islam" is enough to expose your evident hypocrisy, but again like always, you are absolutely free to distort and make use of false reasoning to justify your morally wrong and wicked views.
On the day of justice, we will then see your faces.
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Jewish Dude,
To expect to see sexual intimacy between women as being mentioned (in prohibition or otherwise) would be to take the view in the first instance that sexual relations between men are prohibited, or are not prohibited by explicit mention. You expect them to be comparable, perhaps. You state that it says in the Qur'an quite clearly that homosexual relations between men are not allowed. I've got to be honest, I can't remember reading anywhere in the Qur'an where it explicitly says that consensual homosexual relations are forbidden or that they are not forbidden.
I don't know whether I've written that clearly (I know what I mean) , but I guess I'll find out soon enough!
Shalom.
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Quran is not clear on anything since you use corrupted translations. Sin is religious and non islamic. There is no compulsion in Islam, you can have sex with whoever you want that is a base desire and conquering it is a very good thing ( believe me I experienced a greedless, envy less, lustless state for a few days ) but you can't always conquer them or you'll go mad. Stop being religious because it's stupid
you don't have to go mad. if you can't conquer, then you can get married and the koran tells you who you can marry.
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Jewish Dude,
I've got to be honest, I can't remember reading anywhere in the Qur'an where it explicitly says that consensual homosexual relations are forbidden or that they are not forbidden.
Shalom.
does it say anywhere in the koran that having sex with an animal is forbidden or not forbidden? or how about a child? so, what's your take on that?
what is clear in the koran is having sex outside of marriage is forbidden. then the next question is who can you marry?
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Your comparators for two consenting women to have sex are zoophilia and paedophilia. Why not throw in rape in there as well for good measure.
Please can you explain how consenting sex between two adult people who love and respect each other equates to the power imbalances and abuse inherent in zoophilia, paedophilia and rape?
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hadith followers use the same logic by stating that the koran is not explicitly clear about this and that, hence that's why we need hadiths having set of laws. similarly, one cannot have a view and then refer to the koran stating things are not explicitly stated and so the view is acceptable.
just because two people love and consent to having sex doesn't mean it is ok. the koran is clear that sex outside of marriage is forbidden. you can be a lesbian but having sex outside of marriage is forbidden. so can a lesbian marry another lesbian? this is the question. the koran does state who you can marry. marriage is between a man and woman.
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Please can you explain how consenting sex between two adult people who love and respect each other equates to the power imbalances and abuse inherent in zoophilia, paedophilia and rape?
you are right, it doesn't. my point is that zoophilia and pedophilia are not explicitly said in the Koran to my knowledge but doesn't mean it is ok. you will agree that such acts are forbidden. just the same, although koran doesn't spell things out about lesbian sexual relationship, from understanding the koran sexual relations is allowed only within marriage which is between a man and woman. this is my understanding unless someone enlighten me.
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you are right, it doesn't. my point is that zoophilia and pedophilia are not explicitly said in the Koran to my knowledge but doesn't mean it is ok. you will agree that such acts are forbidden. just the same, although koran doesn't spell things out about lesbian sexual relationship, from understanding the koran sexual relations is allowed only within marriage which is between a man and woman. this is my understanding unless someone enlighten me.
Salaam Yes zoophilia and pedophilia are not mentioned but it is clear why these are not acceptable behaviours because they are abuses of power and Quran is clear in its condemnation of oppression. This does not apply to acts that are based on love and respect between two adults.
Quran also condems lewd behaviour. Is love and respect in the context of a marriage or committed relationship between two people of the same sex, lewd behaviour? Many will say yes, but equally, many will say no.
(Dr Khalifa's translation)
Quran 236 Only with their spouses, or those who are rightfully theirs do they have sexual relations.
Quran confirms that sexual relations can occur within marriage OR between "those who are rightfully theirs".Verses relating to marriage or what is expressly forbidden do not specify that same sex marriages cannot take place.
2221 forbids marriage to an idolater or idolatress
2432 encourages single people to marry
"they may marry the righteous among your male and female servants, if they are poor"3021 Among his proofs is that he created spouses from among yourselves, in order to have tranqulity and contentment with each other, and he placed in your hearts love and care towards your spouses. In this are sufficient proofs for people who think.
So it seems to me from the above verse that what is important about marriage is tranquility, contentment, love and care
Also, the Quran verses relating to marriage seem to be mainly addressed to males, telling them what is required in terms of self control, support for women (responsibility), respect for women, rules of divorce and inheritance.
Homosexuality is present in human, animal and plant species, it is therefore an aspect of God's creation.
May God forgive our errors and guide us on the right path
Lena -
Pictall gives a different translation of Sura 235-6. "And who guard their modesty - (5) Save from their wives or the (slaves) that their right hands possess, for then they are not blameworthy.."
Read the article on free-minds on 'rules of engagement' where the author addresses the possible true meaning of "ma malakat aymanukum". Many have interpretated this to mean a number of things. When I read multiple translations, I keep in mind that our definition of something may be different than God's definition (example hijab). When I read something that is contradictory especially within the Koran, this is when I step back. If I believe that there is no contradictions in the Koran then clearly, we must be in the wrong with our understanding and interpretations when something seems contradictory; if we have differing or contradictary translations especially when something doesn't fit the general theme or morals. Example would be beating of wife as in Sura 434. Could beating of wife be an accurate translation and does that fit with the general theme of Islam?
Being a hadith follower in my previous life, I see the error in taking a verse or part of it and running with it. I try to understand something within the context and understanding it globally putting aside other influences.
having said all that, let's look at homosexuality. now, we cannot apply human concepts of morality or right/wrong on animals. if we apply human concepts, we would consider some animal behavior to be cruel, immoral, evil. there are animals who mate for life and then you have animals who mate with multiple including same sex. there are animals who mate with their offspring, siblings, and such. you cannot take animal behavior and apply to humans just the same. anyhow, we are not talking about homosexuality. that's for another thread. the question is if lesbian sexual relationship is forbidden in the Koran. If the Koran is explicit? Just because something is not spelled out explicitly, does it mean that it is not forbidden?
my understanding and views are that sex outside of marriage is forbidden per koran. the question then is what constitutes a marriage? this is the debate going on here in the united states with legalization of marriage. hot button issue for politicians. so the question is does the koran support same sex marriages? is the koran clear on who you can marry and who you cannot?
lena, the verses that you have provided does not clearly support same sex marriage. well, it is not very convincing to me. I could be wrong but for now, I will err on the side of the view that marriage is between a man and woman unless i am enlightened otherwise. Now, I am a heterosexual woman. But if I were a lesbian for the sake of argument, I sure wouldn't go off marrying a woman till things are clear to me. Just as I did not and do not go along with my peers having sex outside of marriage which is considered norm in this society till I verified things for myself and understanding/appreciating the teachings of the koran.
Ok let's take Sura 235-6. Does the koran really "Quran confirms that sexual relations can occur within marriage OR between "those who are rightfully theirs"?
now, if you hold the view that having sexual relations is confined to within the marriage then you cannot turn around and say that you can have sex 'between' with men or women who are "ma malakat aymanukum" that you are not married to. isn't this contradictory? and how do you interpret this particular verse to mean lesbian sexual relationship may it be forbidden or not? is sura 235-6 even addressing sexual relationship in the first place? hmmmm.....
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Peace Just a Muslim
Ok let's take Sura 235-6. Does the koran really "Quran confirms that sexual relations can occur within marriage OR between "those who are rightfully theirs"?now, if you hold the view that having sexual relations is confined to within the marriage then you cannot turn around and say that you can have sex 'between' with men or women who are "ma malakat aymanukum" that you are not married to. isn't this contradictory? and how do you interpret this particular verse to mean lesbian sexual relationship may it be forbidden or not? is sura 235-6 even addressing sexual relationship in the first place? hmmmm.....
Thanks for your post. I accept your point of difference about animals. Re marriage, my point was that Quran gives TWO options for lawful sexual relationships - in marriage AND with those your right hand possesses which I understand refers to what we in the west call "defacto" relationships, when there is a committment to being with one partner in a marriage-like relationship. There is no contradiction - in many countries both of these are legally considered to be marriage relationships - although the defacto one is usually after a specific time period, around 3 years. The de facto couple can be same sex or heterosexual, the main requirements being respect,love & caring.
Quran verses 780 - 8; 1177 - 82 the Quran does condemn men lusting after other men rather than women. This seems to be in the context of forced sex / rape.
Innakum lata'toonarijaala shahwatam-min doonin-nisaaa
There are differing translations of this into English - some translate it as "lust after" and some (twist it?) to mean "practice sex with". Perhaps an Arabic speaker could comment further on the meaning of these words. I consider forced sex to be the "abomination" rather than the homosexuality.However, the part I am unclear about is "no-one in the world has done it before ". I read another post which said this refers to "there previously did not exist a whole community" that practised homosexual rape, so I consider this could be a possible meaning, as there is clear evidence that people in societies throughout known history have practised homosexuality.
But if forced sex is the true meaning then I become unclear about "verily you practice your lusts on men instead of women" and "Oh my people it would be purer for you if you take my daughters instead". How can rape of women be any purer than the rape of men? does this mean it's ok to rape women? Why would Lot offer his daughters to be raped? This only makes sense if these verses are not referring to forced sex and if it is in fact referring to sex between males as not being acceptable. And we know that men and women are to be treated equitably in such matters so following this reasoning it does seem that Quran doesn"t support homosexuality. But ultimately if there is no rape/oppression occurring it is between God and the individuals concerned as God has given humans freedom of choice.
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Are you guys communists or fascists? rotfl
Are you trying to establish some (new) universal laws? ???
Don't you understand that the Qur'an speaks to each and every one on an individualistic, personal, and intimate basis, and that everyone should read it for himself and God will grant him knowledge according to his own rank and perception?
Some followers of the scripture wish to lead you astray, but they only lead themselves astray, without perceiving.
The only sin God does not forgive is idol-worship!
O you who believe, you should worry only about your own necks. If the others go astray, they cannot hurt you, as long as you are guided. To GOD is your ultimate destiny, all of you, then He will inform you of everything you had done.
Baruch Hashem!