WHAT DOES AYAT 10:15 MEAN...?
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PEACE IDOL
You are understood perfectly. Basically you are trying to CHANGE the meaning of the word "quran" which is "reading" into "body of work, knowledge unto itself, etc etc".
NO, the word "quran" means reading. A single sentence can be a "reading", do you realize this?
And as the Doctor well said, this is a journey into the UNSEEN, so you should start controlling your arrogance and start having faith as the faithful.
Hmmm...if anyone's arrogance needs the assistance of..."the controlloing thoughts"...it is you, bro. Make duaa on this.
Anyway, "quran", means "reading" i.e. script. Now, don't you think it just a tad naive and reductive, to define reading as a single sentance? Does Allah refer to His sentances as "readings" or "ayats"? A reading, is something that is comprehensive in its scope, hence, Al-Quran, the sum total of its ayats, ...is a "reading". I mean one could say..."I bring you a single sentance from the reading", that makes sense to me, but to define a single sentance as a reading, well, that is a huge stretch for me. When 1015 was revealed, do you think the rejectors were talking about a single sentance which they wanted done a way with or something much more comprehensive? I mean I could be wrong, so, let's discuss it.
Would you please give a concrete example of a "single sentance reading" from Allah?
Let me ask you a question, brother, why/where is it that, you like to come up with these Art Bellian/paranormal kinds of theories? I mean, don't get me wrong, they are interesting, but seem very far-fetched at times, just curious.
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Peace be upon you PB,
Hmmm...if anyone's arrogance needs the assistance of..."the controlloing thoughts"...it is you, bro. Make duaa on this.
Anyway, "quran", means "reading" i.e. script. Now, don't you think it just a tad naive and reductive, to define reading as a single sentance?
Can you READ a sentence? In fact, please tell me excatly how long a writing has to be for it to be considered a "reading".
Does Allah refer to His sentances as "readings" or "ayats"?
I do not recall the God ever addressing "sentences" because the verse numbers are man made. The God only refers to SIGNS(ayaat).
A reading, is something that is comprehensive in its scope, hence, Al-Quran, the sum total of its ayats, ...is a "reading".
Where does this definition come from? Where does "comprehensive in its scope" come from? ANYTHING that can be read is a reading.
I mean one could say..."I bring you a single sentance from the reading", that makes sense to me, but to define a single sentance as a reading, well, that is a huge stretch for me.
Everything is a stretch when it is a new understanding, but if you think about it for a while, no one can say HOW MANY words must be used before something turns into a "reading".
When 1015 was revealed, do you think the rejectors were talking about a single sentance which they wanted done a way with or something much more comprehensive? I mean I could be wrong, so, let's discuss it.
I thought we were already discussing it. I believe that the people described in 1015 are responding to single pieces of information thatcome one after the other. It could be single sentences OR a group of sentences.
Would you please give a concrete example of a "single sentance reading" from Allah?
There is no god but the God.
Here's another;
If you put your bare hand in fire it will burn you.
Let me ask you a question, brother, why/where is it that, you like to come up with these Art Bellian/paranormal kinds of theories? I mean, don't get me wrong, they are interesting, but seem very far-fetched at times, just curious.
Above you stated that you wanted to discuss because you could be wrong, but here we see your real thougts manifest, you hate to be wrong, and that will be your downfall if you don't humble yourself.
This is a very simple topic, but you accuse me of "paranormal theories" because I see as sentence as being a reading(something which is read)?
Peace to you.
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PEACE IDOL
I do not recall the God ever addressing "sentences" because the verse numbers are man made. The God only refers to SIGNS(ayaat).
Well, this is my point. Allah, doesn't refer to His individual sentances, and of course Al-Quran is comprised of sentances, as "readings", but "ayats", however, He does refer to the sum total of these ayats as...Al-Quran, The Reading. Listen, you may be correct, however, this is not my understanding and I hope others will weight-in on this topic, one way or the other.
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Peace be upon you PB,
Well, this is my point. Allah, doesn't refer to His individual sentances, and of course Al-Quran is comprised of sentances, as "readings", but "ayats", however, He does refer to the sum total of these ayats as...Al-Quran, The Reading. Listen, you may be correct, however, this is not my understanding and I hope others will weight-in on this topic, one way or the other.
Well thank you for at least admitting the possibility that my position can be correct.
I do hope others will give thier opinions, but until them, think on what I have stated in my previous post.
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Peace Idolfree,
There is nothing to add as you did explain your views clearly and I praise you for your humility. In my opinion, you were also on top of your arguments in the thread "Iblis could not be an Angel..."
Wassallam
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PEACE MOZMAHE
Peace Idolfree,
In my opinion, you were also on top of your arguments in the thread "Iblis could not be an Angel..."
Wassallam
Interesting. Perhaps you saw something which I did not. Where, precisely, was he on top his arguement on the thread "WHY IBLIS CANNOT BE AN ANGEL". If you would, please place your finding on that thread so that I may see it, thanks.
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Peace be upon you Mozmahe,
There is nothing to add as you did explain your views clearly and I praise you for your humility. In my opinion, you were also on top of your arguments in the thread "Iblis could not be an Angel..."
Thank you for the kind and encouraging words. I do think I could have been a little more humble however, I think my sarcasm got the best of me on many occasions. I am working on it.
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Salaam Priest,
Well, that sounds all beautiful and stuff, however, I'm what asking you an Idol, and now you is, other than Allah's Quran, as revealed the Messenger, what other quran can be said to be contradiction/doubt free? I don't want theoretics/suppositions, but a concerte/tangible example. Remember, the question is around "quran" , that is, a "reading/that which is to be recited"/body of work/a knowldege unto itself, as is the case with Allah's Quran given to The Messenger. Am i understood?
I'm not sure where we are to account for 'reading' or 'quran' to mean a large or fairly modest volume of work material in writing. I've read stories that are fairly uncontradictory, though they may not necessarily be truthful. I've seen dictionaries with true meanings that are not contradictory to the language. There are statements of fact and other things that present the truth in a simple manner.
Take care.
Joe
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PEACE NABI
PBWell, that sounds all beautiful and stuff, however, I'm what asking you an Idol, and now you is, other than Allah's Quran, as revealed the Messenger, what other quran can be said to be contradiction/doubt free? I don't want theoretics/suppositions, but a concerte/tangible example. Remember, the question is around "quran" , that is, a "reading/that which is to be recited"/body of work/a knowldege unto itself, as is the case with Allah's Quran given to The Messenger. Am i understood?
I'm not sure where we are to account for 'reading' or 'quran' to mean a large or fairly modest volume of work material in writing.
Well, this is where common sense/intellect comes in. Based only on what you've experienced, did Allah ever just send one sentance, only and alone/that was it, in regard to His guidance? Could one sentance rightly be called a book?
I've read stories that are fairly uncontradictory, though they may not necessarily be truthful.
"Fairly", means...not totally free from, hence, whatever it is you are referring to, is not 100% free of contradiction. If it isn't necessarily the truth, then, that, in itself, is in contradiction to Allah.
I've seen dictionaries with true meanings that are not contradictory to the language. There are statements of fact and other things that present the truth in a simple manner.
My question remains, do you know of any "reading", other than Al-Quran, which is contradiction/doubt free?
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Salaam Priest,
A reading does not equal to a book.
I'd say the divine writ is fairly noncontradictory as well since one cannot really claim that it is completely clear to them when the reading itself announces itself as clear.
Yes, there are readings I know of that are doubt free.
Joe
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PEACE NABI
A reading does not equal to a book.
Yours and Idol's position is confusing to me.
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please define, then, what you mean by a reading?
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what does a reading equal, if not a book?
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what makes a book a book?
I'd say the divine writ is fairly noncontradictory as well since one cannot really claim that it is completely clear to them when the reading itself announces itself as clear.
"Fairly", as I replied to you ealier, suggests yes to some degree. Is it your position then that, Al-Quran, is to one degree or another...contradictory? Allah, says that it is not.
Yes, there are readings I know of that are doubt free.
Would you give an example?
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Salaam Priest,
A book may be a reading, but a reading need not be a book. A reading is material that speaks about something.
I'm sure the Rabb in alquran says that the decree is not contradictory , but in the face of the explanation I gave in my last post how can one not have doubt?
Reading ~~> Points out it's clarity.
People ~~> Cannot completely understand many of these 'clear' issues.
For the sake of pointing this simple fact out to all who may be reading this thread, I would like for you to prove to me that there is nothing in the divine writ that is unclear to you.
A reading I've found to be non-contradictory is Life in the Oceans, by Lucy Baker.
Joe
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PEACE NABI
A book may be a reading, but a reading need not be a book. A reading is material that speaks about something.
Where did you get this definition from?
I'm sure the Rabb in alquran says that the decree is not contradictory , but in the face of the explanation I gave in my last post how can one not have doubt?
Reading ~~> Points out it's clarity.
People ~~> Cannot completely understand many of these 'clear' issues.
For the sake of pointing this simple fact out to all who may be reading this thread, I would like for you to prove to me that there is nothing in the divine writ that is unclear to you.
Allah says that, His Quran is clear, that is, free of ambiguity. Now, I'm certain that you read something when you were in the 7th grade and it wasn't clear to you, however, when you were in the 12th grade, well, it was totally clear to you. Now, the writing on the pages didn't change in the 12th grade from what is was in the 7th grade, so, why was it totally clear in the 12th grade as opposed to the 7th grade? It is the same with Allah's Book, meaning that, just because I cannot immediately grasp an ayat, doesn't mean, objectively speaking, that it isn't clear, it just isn't clear to me at that moment.
A reading I've found to be non-contradictory is Life in the Oceans, by Lucy Baker.
So, the author of this book, wrote something without contradiction, hence, duplicating something which Allah did...made something perfect....is this your position?
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Salaam Priest,
My definition is based on a host of definitions regarding 'reading'. It is simply something that lends some sort of information. In the arabic 'quran' refers to a sort of transmission.
If something in the 7th grade becomes clear later on this means that this thing, which is clear, must not have a contradiction to it. Contradiction cannot be understood except in the sense of realizing the contradiction. Though I have never denied that something may initially be unclear, you are right, there is a learning period that must ensue. Thus, based on this, and based on another ayat in which it is said to be responsible for the beliefs , how do you proclaim that alquran is clear, when you have not yet learned such a thing about it?
I'm not sure what you mean by the author making something, but the author presented the established fact or alhaqq and thus I've seen no contradictions in her work. I said that according to what I do know, all truth preceeds from God. Therefore any truth we find and present is from God.
Joe
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PEACE NABI
My definition is based on a host of definitions regarding 'reading'. It is simply something that lends some sort of information. In the arabic 'quran' refers to a sort of transmission.
If something in the 7th grade becomes clear later on this means that this thing, which is clear, must not have a contradiction to it. Contradiction cannot be understood except in the sense of realizing the contradiction.
I'm not certain what you are saying here. Not everthing we read and cannot immediately grasp, is due to a contradiction. I'm not following you.
Though I have never denied that something may initially be unclear, you are right, there is a learning period that must ensue.
Good deal.
Thus, based on this, and based on another ayat in which it is said to be responsible for the beliefs , how do you proclaim that alquran is clear, when you have not yet learned such a thing about it?
I'm sorry, Nab, but I'm not following you here, could you please re-phrase, thanks?
I'm not sure what you mean by the author making something, but the author presented the established fact or alhaqq and thus I've seen no contradictions in her work. I said that according to what I do know, all truth preceeds from God. Therefore any truth we find and present is from God.
In its totality, is her book without contradiction? If so, then she has duplicated Allah, see 181. I'm not doubting that some things mentioned in her book are the truth, however, the book in its totality cannot be perfect truth.
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Salaam Priest,
I'm not certain what you are saying here. Not everthing we read and cannot immediately grasp, is due to a contradiction. I'm not following you.
The 2 comments you quoted preceding this statement of yours do not relate to what you are saying and wondering. I simply, in short terms, defined reading as a transmission and clarity as a thing relating to no discrepency.
I'm sorry, Nab, but I'm not following you here, could you please re-phrase, thanks?
I mean to say that when you have not learned of the clarity spoken of in alquran or have no understanding of it (clarity in alquran) whatsoever since you have not yet experienced it's totality and 'fact', then how do you determine it is clear with your proclamations promoting it?
In its totality, is her book without contradiction? If so, then she has duplicated Allah, see 181. I'm not doubting that some things mentioned in her book are the truth, however, the book in its totality cannot be perfect truth.
Yes, I believe her book is totally without contradiction. I invite you to read it for yourself. It can probably be available in your local library and should take no more than 30-60 minutes to read, depending on how you read.
Certainly, she has duplicated the One and Only. The truth is the truth regardless of which book you may see it in, or which mouth you may hear it from, or which element you find it in.
Joe
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PEACE NABI
A book may be a reading, but a reading need not be a book. A reading is material that speaks about something
I meant to say that we definitely agree on this.
I mean to say that when you have not learned of the clarity spoken of in alquran or have no understanding of it (clarity in alquran) whatsoever since you have not yet experienced it's totality and 'fact', then how do you determine it is clear with your proclamations promoting it?
This is vague to me, I'm not certain what you are trying to convey here. For me, Allah says that His Quran is clear, that is my starting point, however, 1736 commands that we verify that and verification can only come through diligent study.
Bottomline, is Al-Quran clear?
In its totality, is her book without contradiction? If so, then she has duplicated Allah, see 181. I'm not doubting that some things mentioned in her book are the truth, however, the book in its totality cannot be perfect truth.
A.
Yes, I believe her book is totally without contradiction. I invite you to read it for yourself. It can probably be available in your local library and should take no more than 30-60 minutes to read, depending on how you read.B.
Certainly, she has duplicated the One and Only. The truth is the truth regardless of which book you may see it in, or which mouth you may hear it from, or which element you find it in.In this statement A, you use the term believe which suggests some reservation in your assertion. However, in statement B, you use the term certainly which means you have no reservation about your assertion.
Which statement do you stand by?
Anyway, I have to get this book. I didn't realize that there was another book which was free of contradiction/doubt other than Al-Quran.
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Peace be upon you PB,
If you have children, you can probably look at one of thier Math books as being a TRUTHFUL READING that does not CONTRADICT.
And YES, that would be described as The God's reading(quran).
What does the following verse which states that THIS reading is ONE OF the greatest mean to you?
(7435) It truly is one (of) the greatest.
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Peace be upon you PB,
(24) And who have faith in what was descended to you and what was descended from before you and with the end they are certain.
WHAT WAS DESCENDED does not imply an amount, only that information is descended. Also keep in mind that it is not all at once.
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PEACE IDOL
If you have children, you can probably look at one of thier Math books as being a TRUTHFUL READING that does not CONTRADICT. And YES, that would be described as The God's reading(quran).
I gather then you make no distinction that Al-Quran was sent as guidance for the salvation of one's souls and a math book? When Allah says His Book is without contradiction don't you think that means it is complete and without doubt? Math, remains, a very theoretical science...Al-Quran, on the other hand, is not theoretical.
I think to associate "reading"/quran with just any reading is to entirely miss the point. Quran was sent as guidance and 1015 is remarking that there were and are those who want an alternative source of guidance, hence, "bring a quran other than this".
What does the following verse which states that THIS reading is ONE OF the greatest mean to you?
What other ayat were you referring to?