shahr ramadan - 3 or 10 days of abstention

unknownuser

The koranic wording of verse 2185 relates to witnessing the -shahr- itself, not to only the beginning of it.
One can witness or acknowlegde via a calendar that the full moon of ramadan is there and fast the period of it.

Salaam and right,

2185
so who shahida (avows, acknowledges or intends to fast) from you al-shahra (&#1614
so he should fast in it/falyasum'hu (i.e. the period/cycle).

truthseeker171

Salaam and right,

2185
so who shahida (avows, acknowledges or intends to fast) from you al-shahra (&#1614
so he should fast in it/falyasum'hu (i.e. the period/cycle).

Your translation -so he should fast in it- seems not to be correct.
-he should fast it-, seems to be more appropiate.
So one can fast the full moon that one sees/witnesses, one can fast it when seen/witnessed.
One can not witness a whole month and then fast it.

I advice you to read verse 2189 - the absence of the mentioning of the period of abstention as related to the -hilal- is remarkable.
The communal event of the hajj is mentioned, not the other communal event of the collective fast.

I advice you to do research on the koranic reference of the word ma'doodat (verse 2184) - it seems to mean 3 (days) or a few - probably far from meaning 29/30.

Salaam,
Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

unknownuser

Your translation -so he should fast in it- seems not to be correct.
-he should fast it-, seems to be more appropiate.
So one can fast the full moon that one sees/witnesses, one can fast it when seen/witnessed.

How can one fast the full moon which happen during the night, fasting is during a day?

One can not witness a whole month and then fast it.

It is possible; you keep repeating the visual only definition of shahida.
Who first makes the intent to fast the period then they should fast it.

2185
so who shahida (avows or intends to fast) from you al-shahra (&#1614
so he should fast it/falyasum'hu (i.e. the period/cycle).

I advice you to read verse 2189 - the absence of the mentioning of the period of abstention as related to the -hilal- is remarkable.
The communal event of the hajj is mentioned, not the other communal event of the collective fast.

I advice you to do research on the koranic reference of the word ma'doodat (verse 2184) - it seems to mean 3 (days) or a few - probably far from meaning 29/30.

Lets stay with 2185 -- Explain how one is to fast al-shahra (&#1614 and when to start/stop and how many days exactly?

truthseeker171

How can one fast the full moon which happen during the night, fasting is during a day?

It is possible; you keep repeating the visual only definition of shahida.
Who first makes the intent to fast the period then they should fast it.

2185
so who shahida (avows or intends to fast) from you al-shahra (&#1614
so he should fast it/falyasum'hu (i.e. the period/cycle).

Lets stay with 2185 -- Explain how one is to fast al-shahra (&#1614 and when to start/stop and how many days exactly?

The period of full moon with a coverage of 98% lasts about three days - so if one sees/witnesses the full moon at day- or night-time then their is enough time to fast three days - while the moon being witnessed as full.

Your translation of -shahida- as avowing or intend to fast seems not to be accurate.
-shahida- means rather to witness/see/to be present.
One can not witness or see or be present (at) a whole lunar-cycle at once.
-shahida el shahr- in verse 2185 seems to mean witnessing, seeing or being present (at) the full moon.
Also because

Verse 2184 - the wording -ma'dootan-, according to koranic reference meaning 3 (days) or a few - far less than 29/30.
Verse 2198 - the -hilal- is relevant for the hajj and not for the other communal event - the communal abstention.

I ask you to do your own research on verses 2184 and 2198 - may be you can give another insight.

The timing of fasting the full moon of ramadan.
If the full moon is witnessed/seen before the koranic night - then one has the night to eat and drink as preparation for the fast that begins just before -fadjr-.
If the full moon is witnessed during the night, the fast does not start next daytime, then the next night is the night of the preparation of the fast.
According to verse 2184 the plural of more than two regarding the number of days - requires a fasting of three days at least. The wording ma'dootan refers to possibly three days. The full moon of verse 2185 refers to three days.

One can find out via a mooncalendar what is the day of the most full moon and see that the day before and after have at least 98% coverage.
That is enough to witness the moon as full - it is a basic, efficient tool - not high-tech.

If you want to read the word -shahr ramadan- as a whole lunar-cycle then I ask you
1 - to proof that the word -ma'doodat- can mean 29/30.
2 - to explain that the -hilal- is relevant for the start of -shahr- while knowing that verse 2189 states that the -hilal- is a personal timing divice for the people and was relevant for the communal event of the hajj, not for the other communal event - the communal fasting.

salaam,
Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

truthseeker171

The timing of fasting the full moon of ramadan.
If the full moon is witnessed/seen before the koranic night - then one has the night to eat and drink as preparation for the fast that begins just before -fadjr-.
If the full moon is witnessed during the night, the fast does not start next daytime, then the next night is the night of the preparation of the fast.
According to verse 2184 the plural of more than two regarding the number of days - requires a fasting of three days at least. The wording ma'dootan refers to possibly three days. The full moon of verse 2185 refers to three days.

One can find out via a mooncalendar what is the day of the most full moon and see that the day before and after have at least 98% coverage.
That is enough to witness the moon as full - it is a basic, efficient tool - not high-tech.

The moment of sunset seems not to be the start of the koranic night.
Verse 20130 indicates that the sunset is not a part of the night.
Rather the moment of the gradual darkening of the sky - verse 3637, when the first planets/stars can be seen - verse 676, is the start of the night.
In this case the moment of witnessing the full moon happens in general before the actual koranic night of the fast.
The moment of sunset and the rise of the full moon are related to another.
The actual abstinence starts at the beginning of the moment of -fajr-.

Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

afridi220

it is a whole month ,the lunar cycle,clear to be counted days of 28 give or take for who ever does not see the new moon phase.
all is clear no science for us but it is good to think.give in to what is simple ,i know the blame goes on who ever tried to give us false interpretaions so that now we need to really think hard to find out.
it is all laid simple dont make it hard on your self.it is all clear.

Salam,
Why hajj is for three days and fasting for whole month while same wording -ma'dootan is used in both verses ??

truthseeker171

time of the year - bump

Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

herbman

Peace Ayman, all,

First of all happy Ramadan, I guess you are fasting the next 10 days.

I don't know if anyone raised this issue before, if yes you are welcomed to point me the link, otherwise please can you answer this question

in verse 2197

yusuf ali

For Hajj are the ASHUHUR well known. If anyone undertakes that duty therein let there be no obscenity nor wickedness nor wrangling in the Hajj. And whatever good ye do (be sure) Allah knoweth it. And take a provision (with you) for the journey, but the best of provisions is right conduct. So fear Me, O ye that are wise.!

My question

does the Hajj occur during full moons?

This leads me to a very simple conclusion, if Hajj can occur during full moons, the "count" can only be 3 days as per 2196!!!

Thanks and Peace

youssef4342

Peace be with you guys as well,
from my current understanding, ramadan would be a lunar month as per 2185

morover, my 2 cents on h Hajj would be that it would be during months, not just 3 days, to allow the actual traveling from places far away 2227

dawngorgeous

Peace,

I feel the Hajj is a local event. It would not make sense for everyone to travel to such a place as Makkah for three days. As it is at the moment it is an extremely bad health hazard. Thus, I imagine it would be an event in each town or county in a country.

Dawn.

ayman

Peace Herbman,

First of all happy Ramadan, I guess you are fasting the next 10 days.
I don't know if anyone raised this issue before, if yes you are welcomed to point me the link, otherwise please can you answer this question
in verse 2197

yusuf ali
For Hajj are the ASHUHUR well known. If anyone undertakes that duty therein let there be no obscenity nor wickedness nor wrangling in the Hajj. And whatever good ye do (be sure) Allah knoweth it. And take a provision (with you) for the journey, but the best of provisions is right conduct. So fear Me, O ye that are wise.!
My question
does the Hajj occur during full moons?
This leads me to a very simple conclusion, if Hajj can occur during full moons, the "count" can only be 3 days as per 2196!!!
Thanks and Peace

The harvest feast is marked by the three full-moons after the scorching full-moon. So people can have 3 harvest feasts per harvest season. The minimum time for the harvest feast is 3 days and the maximum is 10 days. In 2196 we hear of 3 days during the feast and 7 days after they return home with the condition that this is for those whose family is not in the inviolable institution of obedience. So for those whose family is in the inviolable institution of obedience the full 10 days would be in the feast.

Peace,

Ayman

herbman

Peace Herbman,

The harvest feast is marked by the three full-moons after the scorching full-moon. So people can have 3 harvest feasts per harvest season. The minimum time for the harvest feast is 3 days and the maximum is 10 days. In 2196 we hear of 3 days during the feast and 7 days after they return home with the condition that this is for those whose family is not in the inviolable institution of obedience. So for those whose family is in the inviolable institution of obedience the full 10 days would be in the feast.

Peace,

Ayman

Peace,

thanks for your reply.

Let's be clear for the audience and myself

When does Hajj start exactly? During, or just after the full moon?

my personnal understanding is during the full moon (3 days) and 7 days after for people who's familly do not belong to the institution!

thanks

Bender

Peace,

thanks for your reply.

Let's be clear for the audience and myself

When does Hajj start exactly? During, or just after the full moon?

my personnal understanding is during the full moon (3 days) and 7 days after for people who's familly do not belong to the institution!

thanks

Salaam brother,

I don't understand this full moon thing. Can anyone please give me an ayaat (or more) where it's talking about a full moon.

Thank you,
Bender

herbman

Salaam brother,

I don't understand this full moon thing. Can anyone please give me an ayaat (or more) where it's talking about a full moon.

Thank you,
Bender

Salam, Peace,

read this http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.0 from Dr Ayman

Peace

unknownuser

I don't read or understand one bit of Arabic (except for what I have recited from the Qu'ran), but I have to say that the 3 day explanation makes total sense to me. In the duas people have told me to recite at the iftaar, we are always making the intention to fast the following day (which I thought was totally weird...why did we do it at sunset instead of doing it when we made the fajr prayer). Then I was told that techinically a full day was from sunset to sunset.

If one sees (witnesses) the full moon, they make the intention to fast. No full moon? No fast. The idea of fasting from the start of one full moon to the start of the next doesn't fit here

2184 A few number of days; however, if any of you is ill or traveling,
then the same number from different days;

But I do see where the idea of fasting the entire month came from
2185 A month of aspiration, in which the Qur?an was revealed; as a guide to the people and clarities from the guidance and the
Criterion. Therefore, whoever of you witnesses the month, then let him fast therein.

That's just my limited understanding though.

unknownuser

Just came across this hadith

Volume 3, Book 31, Number 124
Narrated Ibn Umar I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "When you see the crescent (of the month of Ramadan), start fasting, and when you see the crescent (of the month of Shawwal), stop fasting; and if the sky is overcast (and you can't see It) then regard the crescent (month) of Ramadan (as of 30 days)".

unknownuser

The Quran prescribes a period of communal abstention of three days.

a support of the great effort initiated by Ayman to find the right timing of the period of abstinence.-

Some quranic arguments that support the duration of the period of abstinence of three days instead of a period of ten days

The period of abstention is related to the Arabic word -shahr-.
Verse 2185 states that the duration of a full moon is relevant for the length of the period of abstention.

... those of you who witness this full moon shall fast therein ... -

The plural-form of the word days relating to the abstention mentioned in verse 2184 requires a number of more than two.
The duration of the full-moon illusion with at least 98% coverage is three days.

This seems to be a compelling quranic ruling with a clear unambiguous time-frame.
An abstention out of the time-frame of the duration of the full moon is not suggested here.
There seems not to be another verse that could put this aside in a compelling way.

Other verses give only circumstantial evidence, compared to the value and precision of verse 2185.

Verse 2189 indicates that there is no quranic support for the point of view that the abstention should last ten days, because of the absence of mentioning the period of abstinence explicitly in this verse.
This verse mentions the hilal-indicator as relevant for the communal event of the hadj and not for the communal event of the abstention during the shahr ramadan.
Regarding the perfection and completeness of the Quran the absence of mentioning the communal fast in this verse is rather compelling.
Verse 2183 gives very circumstantial evidence, but could be a further support for a period of abstention of three rather than ten days, since a fast of three days seems to be closer to the prescribed fast in the Torah of one total day.
Verse 2196 gives also circumstantial evidence, because it is related to the hadj and not to the regular period of abstention - this verse can be read both as a support for a ten and a three days period.
The three days are a communal fast of the poor probably during the full moon of the first three days of the hadj.
The seven other days are a private form of fast, the timing of it is depending on the duration of the way back home of the several believers.
The statement in this verse that the count until ten should be completed seems to be relevant only for the private form of fast (day 4 until day 10) related to the hadj.
Completing the count that is mentioned in verse 2185 relates to Ramadan, the communal period of abstinence, verse 2185 prescribes the duration of the full moon as a time-frame for the abstention and thus there should be a count until a total of three days for compensation of the missed days if necessary.
Verse 2203 gives the only quranic example of the the Arabic word -mawdoodat- mentioned in verse 2184 regarding the number of days of abstention, and refers to the number three as the prescribed duration of being present at the hadj which lasts ten days in total.
Of course this does not mean that the word -mawdoodat- means only three.

A conclusion
Verse 2185 seems to be compelling as an indicator for the duration of the communal fast - the duration of a full moon - three days.
The other verses mentioned seem to give more support for the three days period of abstinence than for a period of abstinence of ten days.

I would be interesting to read Quran-based comments.

Salam,
Truthseeker171

I intended to quote that along with my previous post...interesting how there is an interpretation of full moon, yet the hadith says "crescent moon." If anyone can prove that the word/phrase in the Qu'ran means full moon, then you have my undivided attention.

Wakas

peace scared,

from http//www.free-minds.org/Old/articles/science/timing.htm

A common misconception is that the word "shahr" means month. However, the term "shahr" doesn't mean month. According to Classical Arabic dictionaries, the Arabs used to call the moon "shahr". But what phase of the moon does the word "shahr" imply?

Classical Arabic Dictionaries deal extensively with the etymology of the word "shahr". For instance in the discussion of "shahr", it gives "ash-harat", a derivative of "shahr", as meaning a pregnant woman whose belly is round. It also gives the meaning of "shahira(t)" as a big wide woman. It also gives the meaning of "ash-har" as the bright white color of flowers. The primary meaning of the word "shahr" is "something obvious", "something public", "something wide", and "something bright". Hence, all the etymology of the Arabic word "shahr" indisputably and clearly points to it being the obvious, wide, round, and bright full-moon and not the thin, unobvious, and dim new crescent moon.

You can look up lane's lexicon http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm

Shiin-ha-Ra = make it notable/known/manifest/public/infamous (in a bad or good sense), hire/contract for a month, stay a month, month old, month, new moon, moon, full moon, any evil thing that exposes its author to disgrace, a vice/fault or the like, big & bulky, reputable/eminent.

shahr n.m. (pl. shuhur and ashur) 2185, 2185, 2194, 2194, 2197, 2217, 2226, 2234, 492, 52, 597, 92, 95, 936, 936, 3412, 3412, 4615, 584, 654, 973

LL, V4, p 336, 337

unknownuser

peace scared,

from http//www.free-minds.org/Old/articles/science/timing.htm

You can look up lane's lexicon http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm

Oh my goodness...another hadith falsely attributed. I just don't get how some people actually learn Arabic and STILL believe what they were told.

Thank you Wakas...that is greatly appreciated.

noshirk

salam

I will try to traduce part of the french article found here (http//nawaat.org/portail/2012/07/24/ibadat-el-chouyoukhs-5-la-grande-utopie-de-la-reforme-et-le-bonus-dukhanus/)

Let begin with this verse

2187 It has been made lawful for you during the night of fasting to approach your women sexually. They are a garment for you and you are a garment for them. God knows that you used to betray your souls so He has accepted your repentance, and forgiven you; now you may approach them and seek what God has written for you. And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete the fast until night; and do not approach them while you are devoted in the temples. These are the boundaries of God, so do not transgress them. It is thus that God clarifies His revelations to the people who they may be righteous.

We can note that drinking and eating until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn doesn?t mean clearly that we can?t no more eat at all after. This kind of deduction would make the interdiction of approaching women redundant.

Now, the true definition of fasting is given here

1926 "So eat and drink and be happy. If you see any human being, then say 'I have vowed an abstinence for the Almighty, so I will not talk today to any of mankind.'"

Comparison between of two descriptions of the same miracle of God

1910 He said "My Lord, make for me a sign." He said "Your sign is that you will not speak to the people for three nights consecutively."

And
341 He said "My Lord, make for me a sign." He said "Your sign is not to speak to the people for three days except by symbol, and remember your Lord greatly, and glorify at dusk and dawn."

Leads to deduce that Zachariah was already fasting (not speaking) during day.

Comparaison of
2183 O you who believe, fasting has been decreed for you as it was decreed for those before you, perhaps you may be righteous.2184 A few number of days; however, if any of you is ill or traveling, then the same number from different days; and as for those who can do so but with difficulty, they may redeem by feeding the needy. And whoever does good voluntarily, then it is better for him. And if you fast it is better for you if only you knew.

and

2203 And remember God during a few number of days. Whoever hurries to two days, there is no sin upon him; and whoever delays, there is no sin upon him if he is being righteous. And be aware of God, and know that it is to Him that you will be gathered.

Using the marker ?few number of days? (Ayyamm maadoudat) leads to identify also remembering god few days with siyyam

So fasting is a spiritual retreat.
The rest of proofs comes from the meaning of Ramadan.

From Arabic dictionary, we found that
.
.

Ramadhyou means first rains after the summer.
So Shahr Ramadan can mean, according to ayman?s meaning of shar, the full moon of September.

The expression laylatou el Qadr can also mean the night of perfect measure between day and night, wich would be the autumn equinox. The expression Qadr is used many times to mean measure (54-49) and expressly use for measure between days and night length in verse

7320 Your Lord knows that you rise a little less than two thirds of the night, and half of it, and one third of it; and a group of those who are with you. And God measures (YOUKADDIROU) the night and the day??

We know that shahr Ramadan and laylatou el Qadr (night of decree ??) are the same since it is when quran was revealead and it is when angels and spirit descent.

Using dates and verse 19-25, we knows that rouh (spirit) descended on Issa on a day where dates are rutab. Also that period.
The announce of issa to meriem was done during a retreat (3-45 and 19-16 and 19-21). The birth of issa was during another retreat (19-22)

The annonce of Yahia to Zachariah was also, as we have seen, during the period of retreat.

The ten days of retreat are clearly emphasized for Moses during a period of revelation (7-142). (yom kippour ? is around this period)

The verse 2-196 seems to indicate that fasting and hajj are at the same period.
Hajj is here with the meaning of debate and a kind of festival where unbelievers are called to debate with muslims making the Hajj.

Another interesting coincidence is that there is a jewish festival during the full moon just after the equinox of autumn. And the more interesting is that this festival is called souccot and that souccout means silence in Arabic.

so Hajj and fasting are the ten days dedicated to god and to his message by spititual retreat or debating with unbelievers.

Peace