Why is Rashad Khalifa wrong?

Bigmo

Peace Bigmo.

You left " Well educated but crazy" out.

Also the other verses talk about the " proof" of the Koran to this generation, not to the pagans. Remember Muhammed did not bring any sign. " They said why has a sign not come to him from his Lord, say" Wait" The future belongs to god , We too are waiting." A sign/proof to come in the future after Muhammed.
Peace.

The fact that we are here 14 centuries after the Quran was revealed talking about it shows that sign that it is. But what does this has to do with Rashad Khalifa? The verses you quoted do not indicate what you are saying.

good_logic

Peace Bigmo.

They most certainly do not indicate what you said all along.
You have to come up with better explanation for them within the context of the Qoran.
Explain what you think 381 means. Then try again with the rest of the verses mentioned.

Peace.

Bigmo

Peace Bigmo.

They most certainly do not indicate what you said all along.
You have to come up with better explanation for them within the context of the Qoran.
Explain what you think 381 means. Then try again with the rest of the verses mentioned.

Peace.

3.75-Among the People of the Book are some who, if entrusted with a hoard of gold, will (readily) pay it back; others, who, if entrusted with a single silver coin, will not repay it unless thou constantly stoodest demanding, because, they say, "there is no call on us (to keep faith) with these ignorant (Pagans)." but they tell a lie against Allah, and (well) they know it. Nay.- Those that keep their plighted faith and act aright,-verily Allah loves those who act aright. As for those who sell the faith they owe to Allah and their own plighted word for a small price, they shall have no portion in the Hereafter Nor will Allah (Deign to) speak to them or look at them on the Day of Judgment, nor will He cleans them (of sin) They shall have a grievous penalty. There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues (As they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is no part of the Book; and they say, "That is from Allah," but it is not from Allah. It is they who tell a lie against Allah, and (well) they know it! It is not (possible) that a man, to whom is given the Book, and Wisdom, and the prophetic office, should say to people "Be ye my worshippers rather than Allah.s" on the contrary (He would say) "Be ye worshippers of Him Who is truly the Cherisher of all For ye have taught the Book and ye have studied it earnestly." Nor would he instruct you to take angels and prophets for Lords and patrons. What! would he bid you to unbelief after ye have bowed your will (To Allah in Islam)? Behold! Allah took the covenant of the prophets, saying "I give you a Book and Wisdom; then comes to you an apostle, confirming what is with you; do ye believe in him and render him help." Allah said "Do ye agree, and take this my Covenant as binding on you?" They said "We agree." He said "Then bear witness, and I am with you among the witnesses." If any turn back after this, they are perverted transgressors. Do they seek for other than the Religion of Allah.-while all creatures in the heavens and on earth have, willing or unwilling, bowed to His Will (Accepted Islam), and to Him shall they all be brought back. Say "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)."

The first part of those verses is refering to the Talmud that allows jews to cheat and deceive the gentiles.

"Non-Jewish property belongs to the Jew who uses it first? - (Babba Bathra 54b)

?If two Jews have deceived a Non-Jew, they have to split the profit? - (Choschen Ham 183,7)

?Every Jew is allowed to use lies and perjury to bring a Non-Jew to ruin? - (Babha Kama 113a)

?The Jew is allowed to practice usury on the Non-Jew? - (Talmud IV/2/70b)

Sanhedrin 57a . A Jew need not pay a gentile ("Cuthean&quot the wages owed him for work

The translation refered to "umiyeen" as pagans when it really is supposed to be gentiles. Talmudic Judaism does not seperate between pagan gentiles or monotheist gentiles. Their religion is based on ethnicity and not faith. The rest of the verses is talking about the Jews who sometimes quote the Talmud making it appear to some that its from the OT when its not. Just like many Muslims think many aspects of shariah are based on the Quran when its not. Sunni clerics employ this tactic as we know. Only two says ago I heard a cleric says that blasphemy should be punished by death according to the Quran. We all know its not from the Quran but many Muslims are ignorant. Often they will twist the meaning of the Quran without people detecting the spin. The Jews often employ the same tactic.

As far as the rest of those verses its talking about preferential treatment between the prophets or rather rejecting some of the prophets while claiming to follow others. The Jews rejected Jesus and then rejected Muhammad since both Jesus and the Quran attacked the Talmud. The Jews probably claimed that the Talmud is a Mosaic and Davidonian and Solomonian tradition and accused Jesus of violating those traditions. The Quran tells us that all the prophets saw themselves as one and each supported the other. Jesus quoted many prophets when he preached and said he came to confirm the Torah and the Quran quoted many prophets and also claimed it came to confirm the Old and New Testament. Sunnis and Shias we know claim Muhammad was the greatest of the prophets not because they follow the Quran but because its through the Sunnah they abrogated many of its teachings. The Arab Meccan dynasties could not trace their lineage to any other prophet like they could with Muhammad saw they saw him as a way to circumvent the Quran by inventing isnads that claimes they can trace traditions to Muhammad himself. Muhammad was really all the Meccans had and he was their only rise to fame.

The part when it said that no prophet would instruct people to worship him is probably talking about the Jewish claim regarding Jesus. The Jews sometimes claim that the reason they rejected Jesus is because he claimed the Trinity when in reality they rejected him because he claimed to be the messiah and attaked their Talmud. This argument was used by Jews often to make their reason of rejecting Jesus more acceptable in the Christian world. The Talmudic accounts says Jesus practiced sorcery and was a traitor but never claimed he said he claimed he was divine. But after Christianity came about with the Trinity Jews saw this as a better areason to claim why Jesus was rejected. The Jews know Jesus never claimed he was divine.

Frankly what does all this have to do with Rashad Khalifa beats me. To understand those verses in the Quran you need to debate Jews and other religious traditions. Often they will present the same arguments the Quran is refering to. The Quran often comments on the Muhamedan experiences when he preached and debated and offers him guidance.

Its important here the Quran refers to soem Jewish authorities and not all. The opening of those verses tells us many Jews were honest and faithful. Like Sunni hadiths, there are many talmudic traditions that inspires piety and righteousness and many traditions that inspires disbelief and oppression.

good_logic

Peace Bigmo.

" ... Then comes to you an apostle confirming what is with you..." Are you saying this is Muhammed?

Can I remind you that Muhammed is a witness with the prophets ( ...We have taken a covenant with you and the prophets... )

There fore it cannot be Muhammed?

Peace.

Student_of_Allah

Peace Bigmo.

" ... Then comes to you an apostle confirming what is with you..." Are you saying this is Muhammed?

Can I remind you that Muhammed is a witness with the prophets ( ...We have taken a covenant with you and the prophets... )

There fore it cannot be Muhammed?

Peace.

Shalom Aleikhem,

I was about to write alot, then I realised that probably you already know that I would vote for Gabriel...right ??? )

Peace
---------- Student of Allah

good_logic

Peace Student of Allah.

How are you?

Yes I recall our conversation. I gave the reasons it cannot be Gabriel.
Peace.

Bigmo

Peace Bigmo.

" ... Then comes to you an apostle confirming what is with you..." Are you saying this is Muhammed?

Can I remind you that Muhammed is a witness with the prophets ( ...We have taken a covenant with you and the prophets... )

There fore it cannot be Muhammed?

Peace.

I think its refering to all the prophets since the verse is talking about a conversation for all the prophets. What i am not sure about is the render him help part. We know that Jesus and many of the prophets told their audience they came to confirm the previous prophets. But how those previous prophets rendered any help is where I am not sure of.

But what does Rashad Khalifa has to do will this?

good_logic

Peace Bigmo.

The prophets will be witnesses on the day of Resurrection. They will support the witnessing of that messenger mentioned in 381.

They have taken the covenant to witness that this messenger (To come after Muhammed because he has also taken the covenant with the other prophets) is a true messenger.
Peace.

GODsubmitter

To me, the greatest contribution by Mr. Rashad Khalifa PhD, is, his very clear explanation and exposition about the "Great Feud" in Heavens, and the "role" of Satan being given, with this planet as his playground, to rule and trap people to commit AGAIN the same mistake of not being fully conscious and cognizant that God is the ONLY ONE and One Alone to be acknowledged and submitted to.

Mr. Khalifa's explanation of the reason why we are all born here as constituents for Satan, to give Satan the chance to prove that he is incapable of being god and exposing his ungrounded sinister claim and ambition to be able to be god besides god, was also one of the best philosophical offers of an argument to contribute the pondering how to fit existence of evil into fabric of religions.

I find some of his other appendices to the Quran very intriguing and interesting, some of them quite amazing and amusing, some very reliable and self-evident.

I would also like to mention his quite good and clear translation of the Quran.

I decided to write this and maybe some other post on this Forum next to silly and unfitting if not vulgar and irritating posts by @"es" @"fox" et al. before leaving this Forum, because, I must admit that all I read, and the more time I spend reading threads here, the effect on me is being loosing faith and opening my eyes to the big fraud all this Islam business is...with no honest stand about what Salat is, when Ramadan should be performed and for how many days, not to mention Hajj or Zekat...

Quite similar thought as in http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604033.0

I expect there will be again silly remarks about pictures of someone's tattoos or links to stupid semi-porn sites with explanations why "they are not it". Or cheap jokes by lower-class disoriented adolescents or bored housewives discussing fetwas or Talmud.
And all that written in bad English and wrong orthography.

Quite a delusion instead of hope of finding a place where doubts about Islam could be resolved.

As I saw already many a smart people gone, asking moderators to erase their account, I myself feel quite near to similar decision. Posts by @"good logic" and few more, keep me somewhat optimistic though...

good_logic

Peace all
Here is an example of some of Rashad translation of GOD s fully detailed book

6115 The word of your Lord is complete in truth and justice. ( do you need the word of Humans in religion?) Nothing shall abrogate HIS words. HE is the Hearer, the Omniscient.?

6116? If you follow the majority of people on earth, they will divert you from the path of GOD. They follow only conjecture; They only guess.?

6112 We have permitted the enemies of every prophet, to inspire in each other fancy words in order to deceive. ( to test your loyalty?) Had your Lord willed, they would not have done it. You should disregard them and their fabrications.?

6113? This is to let the minds of those who do not ( really) believe in the hereafter (and accountability!) listen to such fabrications and accept them and thus expose their real convictions.?

6114 Shall I seek other than GOD as a source of law ( and religion!); When HE has revealed to you this book fully detailed? ( No need for the words of men?) Those who received the scripture ( before you) recognise that it has been revealed from your Lord truthfully. ( With proof that it is the word of GOD? ) You shall not harbour any doubt.?

6137 Thus were the idol worshippers duped by their idols ( made up rules/ misled by the words of men?) to the extent of killing their children. ( Like stoning for adultery ?) In fact their idols inflict great pain upon them ( invent laws/rules , Write their own books and claim it is from GOD,Mix in traditions, Add/ takeaway?) and confuse their religion for them? Disregard them and their fabrications.?

6140 Losers indeed are those who killed their children ( Followed these medieval rules!) foolishly, due to their lack of knowledge and prohibited what GOD has made lawful and followed innovations ( and traditions) attributed to GOD. They have gone astray; They are not guided.?

73 You shall follow what is revealed to you from your Lord. ( Only the word of GOD!) Do not follow any idols. ( Do not follow the words of men!) Rarely do you take heed!?

76 We will certainly question those who received the message ,( then made up doctrines, false religion,?) and we will question the messengers.?

77 We will inform them ( all humans on the day of judgement) authoritatively, for We were never absent.?

751 Those who do not take their religion seriously, ( follow blindly!) and are totally preoccupied with this worldly life; ( have got other more important priorities/ other motives) We forget them on that day (Resurrection!) like they forgot that day( themselves!) and because they spurned our revelations.? ( followed the words of men!)

752 We have given them a scripture that is fully detailed, ( Is this true? Check it?) with knowledge, guidance and mercy for the people who believe.?

( Did GOD give Moses the Tablets? HIS own words? Did GOD require the children of Israel to write their own words?)

7169 Subsequent to them, ( The children of Israel) HE (GOD) substituted new generations who inherited the scripture .(The word of GOD!) But they opted for the worldly life instead, ( and the words of Men!) saying? We will be forgiven?, but then they continued to opt for the materials of this world. ( and justify their deviation from the word of GOD!) Did they not make a covenant to uphold the scripture (and only follow the word of GOD!) and not to say about GOD except the truth? Did they not study the scripture? ( It forbade them from following idols?) Certainly the hereafter is far better for those who believe (and stay loyal to GOD!) and maintain righteousness ( Follow the word of GOD only!). Do you not understand??

7181 Among our creation there are those who guide with the truth ( and follow only the word of GOD!) and the truth renders them righteous.?

He started the revolution of " prove all things" Only follow the word of GOD..GOD is helping others to carry on this revolution.
Are you loyal to GOD?
May GOD guide all those who seek HIM Alone.
Peace.

GODsubmitter

Thank you @"good logic"

Philosopher

personally i remain severely skeptical of him professing himself as a messenger, editing the quran and removing ayats to make his "mathematical" code 19 work and even adding his name to the quran in brackets i.e (O, Rashad)

I do not believe that the quran had ayats added to it. its impossible since god will protect the quran and it seems extremely suspicious that he would remove 2 verses of the quran to make code 19 work and then justify it using a hadith....

He really gave us quran alone muslims a bad name. or at least the ones who do not have faith in him.

unknownuser

To me, the greatest contribution by Mr. Rashad Khalifa PhD, is, his very clear explanation and exposition about the "Great Feud" in Heavens, and the "role" of Satan being given, with this planet as his playground, to rule and trap people to commit AGAIN the same mistake of not being fully conscious and cognizant that God is the ONLY ONE and One Alone to be acknowledged and submitted to.

Mr. Khalifa's explanation of the reason why we are all born here as constituents for Satan, to give Satan the chance to prove that he is incapable of being god and exposing his ungrounded sinister claim and ambition to be able to be god besides god, was also one of the best philosophical offers of an argument to contribute the pondering how to fit existence of evil into fabric of religions.

Yes that part is very interesting as you mentioned it is a good philosophical...guess can I say that?, but I want to know where is that part explained in the Qur'an, the feud between and God and Satan, as far as I understand is only regarding Satan not bowing to man, it is not understood why should men be bowed to, or why did God not just abolish Satan. I think the Qur'an just mentions God telling the angels when they asked why didn't you abolish who are against you, by God knowing something the rest do not.

The idea that he gave satan a special liscence on earth, where is that in the Qur'an, or that Satan's problem was with wanting to become a God, rather than pride over why should he bow to humans who are so weak.

I think for example the reason God gave humans a chance, because we represent full freedom of choice, and that in spite of having that we will still want to forgo our freedoms, or at least we will be remorseful that it is not easy to follow God's will. And that this will demonstrate what is so amazing about humanity. BUT that is a guess, I can never claim I know that.

But Dr. Rashad was very very confident about every single word that came out. Even though he kept saying I am only here to reaffirm the Qur'an I am not bringing any new ideas. He even claims that because Satan is the temporary god of earth, that is why the world has disease and disasters. Again, I don't see in the Qur'an a theme that God doesn't do things that are not good in the eyes of humans, he doesn't disown bad things happening to either believers or non believers. The idea of if you want to check you are in good faith, note how healthy/happy/financially having a good life. I am not so sure about that.
Then the date of the end of the world, the main reason I went nuts with hadith, is that the Qur'an specifically says to Mohammed, if they ask you about that, say it is not for me to know that. And that made sense to me, that the end of times could be anytime, which encourages a no slacker attitude towards what are you gonna do about your death.

It is different to say it is a philosophy, or that this is what actually happened, because the Yezidis for example, believe Satan has already cried a lot and apologized, it is very interesting, but...how would I know he did or did not. But then again any religion has this dilemma...(

Again I believe he was raised as a Sufi, and with probably a load of superstitious beliefs (this Du'a keeps the roaches out of the house) and when you get an education, you can start to feel you need to justify every single thing in a human understandable way. But claim it is God written. For a christian version, behold Westboro Church.

I honestly believe in the Qur'an because, as I said it speaks truth to me about human nature, and things that damages the soul, even though it would seem it does not, it sounds like someone who knows us beyond our comprehension. I will try the 19 thing too. I realise again maybe I am just being like one of the people in the Qur'an who do not believe even if you do whatever to prove it. But at the same time God doesn't deny the idea of false prophethood/messnger claims. So I have to use my brain don't I, what else am I to do then???.

And I also realise his claims are as out there as the Prophet Muhammad, or any of them mustave been when they showed up, and they all had the same problem, we already have the truth, don't try to twist it. So it is quiet challenging still to discredit the guy if I want to believe in divine revelations. There is so many people who claim prophethood, and being jesus, and....its just....confusing to say the least.

good_logic

Peace Philosopher.

Yes, you have your personal opinions, we all have personal opinions, prophets/ messengers have personal opinions.

The most important thing is " Not to follow personal opinions "unless they coincide/ agree with "The word of GOD".

You cannot go wrong if you follow the word of GOD Alone! GOD teaches/ explains/ guides. GOD also chooses HIS prophets messengers at specific times according to HIS plan.

It is not up to us to choose .( Those who disagree always find reasons?) However it is up to us to "vet/check" that these prophets / messengers are true. There is a criteria according to the Qoran.

What is also clear is they bring the same important message.( Sincere submission and total loyalty to GOD Alone)

How GOD tries the believers is also up to HIM. What is certain is that we all go through the trial.

Finally it is not about what you and I think. It is about what does GOD say .

I have no doubt that the messenger of the covenant will come to confirm the message sent trough the prophets. That messenger comes after the last message- Qoran". I believe that messenger was Rashad.

Peace.

unknownuser

I think the main reason I am obsessed with R.K...because he is a 'messenger in the making' kind of story....and what drives me crazy is....I feel that why do some people choose to believe him and some don't...even though they are both muslims...

After all, his story is the same...as any prophet....but at the same time...it makes me feel, anyone who states that God said so, has a lot of power on a believer...which makes me understand the idea of religion being brainwashing. Logic is your enemy eventually.

If it is unprovable, but sounds ok, does that make it ok?...Does a good philosophy constitute God's words?...so the Qur'an was a good work of philosophy by Muhammed? I mean I realised in my self that is why I like the Qur'an....but apparently there is a lot of philosophies out there.

But when the story of the talking hoopoe comes across, I go like...ok...maybe..or the whale swallowing a person, and then he came out anyways...the more I grow up...and when I started to go like maybe hadith is perhaps wrong...., and seeing people agree....well with the same logic unfortunatley, somethings in the Qur'an can go wrong too....what makes the Qur'an immune...Also it makes me think, it was logical for people to be very skeptical of Muhammed then, because God according to the Qur'an did give some people exquisite powers. Why not him. Some would argue the Qur'an is a linguistic miracle...but that is very difficult to understand for me. Also the miracles, were always bound to the perception of the people themselves.

Jesus, was scientific miracles, at the time people were obsessed with medicine.
Muhammed, was linguistic skills, which still to this day the Gulf arabs are obsessed in the art of poetry, and arabian words.

I think it was my first time getting exposed to the idea that a LOT of people claimed divinity...somehow when it was someone who is of our relevant times...it made it sound...insane...but otherwise when it is bound to the mysteries and magic of history...it is not, its just the same. I guess my conviction is so weak.

Paganism, and mythology, I used to discredit them because they have this very interesting magical story element to them...God of thunder, god of fire...the hydra....but...what made them arrive to these conclusions...and the Holy books...the 'mythology' of the middle eastern for the most part, they are not free of certain magical explanations either. Ancient egypt believed in monotheism too. Satan already apologised in the Yezidi, but the peacock is the bird of choice...

Does their success in different areas signify truth? Just cause they have been there 'forever'..., isn't buddhism/hinduism the most dominant ancient...., is philosophy...a man driven thing...but to 'science-tify' it you need to say it is from God?

I am afraid that I am saying I am probably going to hell. I wish I never knew anything. ( I started with the hadith...I don't know where the line will end....

Evanescence - Field Of Innocence
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMzKKREHQgA

good_logic

Peace nevasheva.

Eventually the clouds will start to lift. It takes hard work, patience, perseverance,a lot of study and staying loyal to your creator.

I hope you will see your journey through.
Peace.

Jafar

If it is unprovable, but sounds ok, does that make it ok?...Does a good philosophy constitute God's words?

Every truth is God's revelation...
And whether those who said it claimed it as 'divine' or not doesn't really matter..

...so the Qur'an was a good work of philosophy by Muhammed?

It's possible but I think it's less likely...
Just like (some) books within the bible.. I don't see the 'self narcicism' within the Quran (and also some books in the bible) which makes it 'unique'.. Infact the Quran contains critics to Muhammad himself...

But when the story of the talking hoopoe comes across, I go like...ok...maybe..or the whale swallowing a person,
and then he came out anyways...

Animal does 'communicate' although the language might not be understandable by common human.. and there are animals who communicate without using 'audio sounds'..
People (or monkeys or others) getting swallowed by a whale and survive is pretty much possible..

Paganism, and mythology, I used to discredit them because they have this very interesting magical story element to them...God of thunder, god of fire...the hydra....but...what made them arrive to these conclusions...

Deities are fake.. the priests created them to get $$$ from clueless people..

Ancient egypt believed in monotheism too.

Monotheism is NOT the real issue.. even the Devil is a monotheist...

Does their success in different areas signify truth? Just cause they have been there 'forever'...

Nope...

buddhism/hinduism the most dominant ancient...., is philosophy...a man driven thing...

Judging by your statement.. certainly you know nothing about Buddhism/Hinduism...

but to 'science-tify' it you need to say it is from God?

Nope.. Siddharta tells 'the truth' without telling anyone that he got those from "any deities"...
Buddhism is among those 'rare' religion where it teaches the truth without claiming any divinity.. or in other words it's a 'Godless/Deitiless' religion or 'atheist' religion..

Hinduism is more complicated issue.. I advice you to study its history before discussing any further...

I am afraid that I am saying I am probably going to hell. I wish I never knew anything. ( I started with the hadith...I don't know where the line will end....

Don't worry you will not go to hell because of what you think/believe...
If you're going to hell it's because of what you do...

Salam / Peace

Philosopher