We have the timing, now we need the METHOD

[357]

Yes we can. It's a fact. If you can't even get this, then it's useless to continue reasonably. You won't let facts stand in the way however, so do go on...what is it really?

So what you have said is ;

Its not a real hand you cut off, okay i agree.

But you say the eating means eating real food, but the eating of property is not eating it, yes?

does it make sense?

[357]

Salaam,

How do you understand this

4810 Those who pledge allegiance to you, are in-fact pledging allegiance to God; the hand of God is above their hands. Those of them who violate such a pledge, are violating it only for themselves. And whoever fulfills what he has pledged to God, then He will grant him a great re ward.

Salaam,
Bender

God doesn't have hands, as you can't cut the hand of a thief these hands are not physical.

either you take it as a real thing throughout the quran or as an idiom throught, or use another meaning.

Or prove God has hands.

[Bender]

God doesn't have hands, as you can't cut the hand of a thief these hands are not physical.

either you take it as a real thing throughout the quran or as an idiom throught, or use another meaning.

Or prove God has hands.

Salaam,

hmm So according to you every hand in the Quran is or physical or not?

What exactly do we have to wash here

56 "O you who believe, if you rise to hold the contact prayer, then wash your faces and your hands up to the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles; ...."

Salaam,
Bender

[Kaiokenred]

Cutting their hands means something else. To cut their money for whatever was the value stolen is one for example. There are two more. Not sure which article was though where I read it, but surely made sense.

[savage_carrot]

So what you have said is ;

Its not a real hand you cut off, okay i agree.

But you say the eating means eating real food, but the eating of property is not eating it, yes?

does it make sense?

Yes it makes complete sense to everyone except you insisting upon "just because hand means something else somewhere (depending on context - obviously since that's how we read and understand), it can never refer to an actual hand elsewhere (depending on context - obviously since that's how we read and understand)". That is just plain illogical. In fact, you'd have to try really hard to make sure people understand that self imposed concept in a book with a 'how to read this book section' before the actual book itself (because that's just not how it works...anywhere).

either you take it as a real thing throughout the quran or as an idiom throught, or use another meaning.
And just where is this self imposed dichotomous concept coming from? Please provide references and evidence?

[357]

Salaam,

hmm So according to you every hand in the Quran is or physical or not?

What exactly do we have to wash here

56 "O you who believe, if you rise to hold the contact prayer, then wash your faces and your hands up to the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles; ...."

Salaam,
Bender

Please note;
I am not trying to chnge anybodies belief as we can be all good irrespective of the religion we follow.

Washing is a spiritual thing-not physical, that is to change ones character ,non believers, those who steal, who rape, who plunder wash themselves also but do not wash spiritually so as to stop their evil actions.

Here the food is corruption/sin from their washing.
Wala taAAamun illamin ghisleenin
"Nor hath he any food except the corruption from the washing

Here we are unable to obey Gods command as you cannot always face macca, It is not a physical face but more to do with the character of an individual.

Wujooh is not face in the quran , a perfect example for you.

Wamin haythu kharajta fawalliwajhaka shatra almasjidi alharami wahaythuma kuntum fawalloo wujoohakum shatrahu li-allayakoona lilnnasi AAalaykum hujjatun illaallatheena thalamoo minhum falatakhshawhum waikhshawnee wali-otimma niAAmatee AAalaykumwalaAAallakum tahtadoona

So from whencesoever Thou startest forth, turn Thy face in the direction of the sacred Mosque; and wheresoever ye are, Turn your face thither that there be no ground of dispute against you among the people, except those of them that are bent on wickedness; so fear them not, but fear Me; and that I may complete My favours on you, and ye May (consent to) be guided;

Face nor hands are what the quran is saying - just my argument.

Thank you all.

[Tlepsh]

Yes you are right but the word BADR is not in verse 2185

also BADR can be found in verse 3124 does it really mean "full moon"

let's try
Allah had helped you at Badr, when ye were a contemptible little force; then fear Allah; thus may ye show your gratitude.

You are mixing moder classical arabic and quranic arabic.

Peace

also SHAHR can be found in verse 3412 does it really mean "full moon"

Peace

[mmkhan]

God doesn't have hands, as you can't cut the hand of a thief these hands are not physical.

either you take it as a real thing throughout the quran or as an idiom throught, or use another meaning.

Or prove God has hands.

Salaam,

I agree with you here... that is the reason I could not reply to your message to me &

I have to research it, inshaAllah, with my TheCreator's permission I will get back to you on this.

mmKhan

[savage_carrot]

Please note;
I am not trying to chnge anybodies belief as we can be all good irrespective of the religion we follow.

Washing is a spiritual thing-not physical, that is to change ones character ,non believers, those who steal, who rape, who plunder wash themselves also but do not wash spiritually so as to stop their evil actions.

Here the food is corruption/sin from their washing.
Wala taAAamun illamin ghisleenin
"Nor hath he any food except the corruption from the washing

Here we are unable to obey Gods command as you cannot always face macca, It is not a physical face but more to do with the character of an individual.

Wujooh is not face in the quran , a perfect example for you.

Wamin haythu kharajta fawalliwajhaka shatra almasjidi alharami wahaythuma kuntum fawalloo wujoohakum shatrahu li-allayakoona lilnnasi AAalaykum hujjatun illaallatheena thalamoo minhum falatakhshawhum waikhshawnee wali-otimma niAAmatee AAalaykumwalaAAallakum tahtadoona

So from whencesoever Thou startest forth, turn Thy face in the direction of the sacred Mosque; and wheresoever ye are, Turn your face thither that there be no ground of dispute against you among the people, except those of them that are bent on wickedness; so fear them not, but fear Me; and that I may complete My favours on you, and ye May (consent to) be guided;

Face nor hands are what the quran is saying - just my argument.

Thank you all.

I actually do understand the drive to change stuff around just because 'people might get confused'...it's the same drive that compels us to make laws for things that constrain us to go in a certain direction/do certain things. The thing people have to realise however is that it's in the understanding of the actual words that allow us to comprehend on multiple levels. To force every single commandment, no, every single action inclusive of words used in the quran to be only figurative in nature is not only stemming from a fervent desire to eradicate 'confusion' but also constraining the quran to conform and apply to only one level of understanding. Some would argue that it is the best level of understanding...and I would respond by asking is there such a thing? Do we already know for sure what is the best for all time and everyone?

We know that actual literal actions can have an effect on us psychologically, scratch that...spiritually. To say that well, the quran doesn't deal with matters of literal triviality and applies only to a 'higher' tier is actually shortchanging the book itself. "Fasting doesn't mean abstaining from food, it means abstaining from corruption (e.g.)!"...what if such literal abstinence actually did have an effect to that end/whatever metaphorical slash spiritual end is envisioned? No, we know all there is to know about that, God wouldn't concern Himself with such filthy literalism. Whatever. The point gets lost once again, that you can have the entire cake. You just can't insist there is only one way to eat it.

People will do stupid things, they will interpret in ways that may befuddle a logical mind regardless of how you word stuff. They will find loopholes no matter what. They may take the worst possible conclusion even. This is something that can be 'fought' against...in fact, you'd have to fight against this regardless of how you take things. The solution is what it has always been. Read carefully, reason logically, research intensively and reach a 'best' possible interpretation that is open to change with new information.

Thus ends the general theoretical aspect. Now for the technical aspect which is don't force the actual literal words to change to something more figurative sounding by fictitiously cobbling together and massacring roots/meanings/lexicons to make the point 'look! it is, it IS figurative' and run from people asking for evidence and clarification on such semantic acrobatics by mumbling 'just my opinion, take it or leave it', a man can't even have an opinion these days grumble grumble'.

[herbman]

also SHAHR can be found in verse 3412 does it really mean "full moon"

Peace

Salam,

well seen, I'll have to analyse the verse and context to make me an idea!
What I meant by my previous post is, badr means full moon as many other words can also mean full moon, but with time words can evolve, and the meaning used in the Quran can be wrongly understood with today signification.
A good example is HAYAWAN today it means animal but in the Quran it has a totaly different signification and animal in Quran is called DABBA, and the list goes on and on.

Peace

[357]

Top Notch,

you are right, accept may be on one point -i think, i can give you an example.

My third son is very slim, doesn't eat much at all, but he is always busy in his studies - so much so sometimes he has to be called to the dinner table, mind you he is very talented young lad and never does anything that may be counted as bad. His hunger or going without food isn't what makes him good and talented but his keen over whelming interest in his work.

Likewise if the going without food was the all positive factor in making him good and talented then the whole muslim and hindu world would indeed be the best of the world.They have been fasting for over one thousend years, now look at them in shambles.

[savage_carrot]

Top Notch,

you are right, accept may be on one point -i think, i can give you an example.

My third son is very slim, doesn't eat much at all, but he is always busy in his studies - so much so sometimes he has to be called to the dinner table, mind you he is very talented young lad and never does anything that may be counted as bad. His hunger or going without food isn't what makes him good and talented but his keen over whelming interest in his work.

Likewise if the going without food was the all positive factor in making him good and talented then the whole muslim and hindu world would indeed be the best of the world.They have been fasting for over one thousend years, now look at them in shambles.

I understand. However things are getting conflated here...you're assuming the abstinence is supposed to protect against the crumbling of civilizations. It doesn't quite work that way, not even if you substitute food for whatever you think it's meant to stand for. There are so many factors that contribute to such shambles, I doubt we'd even be able to list all of them off hand. No one thing is going to protect against it. Multiple fronts of action are needed.

With that said, there is a difference between realising the futility/uselessness of some literal actions and the benefits that some literal actions confer. Just like there are differences in people who need or find different approaches that work for them. To force compliance/reduce it to one level of understanding only thus is actually detrimental to the overall effectiveness and impact given the diversity present in humanity.

We can understand that repeating words as a mantra (e.g.) is not going to magically make us pass an exam...is futile, useless and at worst destructive but at the same time if someone finds that reading the quran (e.g.) at a set time everyday brings them peace, focus and betterment...will we latch on to the ritual aspect and call them literal actiony fools? Thing is, just because someone finds a useless way to use something doesn't mean that someone else won't use it another way. Sometimes we are so focused on certain words/concepts that set us off, or so absorbed with what we think is the only right way to do things that we can't see the forest for the trees. Or that we aren't the only humans around.

[357]

Here we go...so mz, what is the abstinence all about? Regale us.

Okay;

Learn to abstain from goings on which are detrimental to life.So if something is detrimental , you must stop it.

Obvously in the quran it is obligatory on us all, if we are believers, but as you know this is something enforced by the state in the west.

With the modern day camera systems and the methodolgy of accountability it does work better.

peace

[Bender]

Please note;
I am not trying to chnge anybodies belief as we can be all good irrespective of the religion we follow.

Salaam,

I believe this place is not to change ones believe but to exchange our understandings and approaches so that we can learn from each other. Anyway that is how I see this forum and discussions in general.

Washing is a spiritual thing-not physical, that is to change ones character ,non believers, those who steal, who rape, who plunder wash themselves also but do not wash spiritually so as to stop their evil actions.

You can take almost everything to a spiritual level if one wishes.
Does feeding a poor person actually means giving him to eat or does it mean we have to feed someone spiritually, who is spiritually poor?

Here the food is corruption/sin from their washing.
Wala taAAamun illamin ghisleenin
"Nor hath he any food except the corruption from the washing

Where does this take place? Did you read the verses before?

Here we are unable to obey Gods command as you cannot always face macca, It is not a physical face but more to do with the character of an individual.

Wujooh is not face in the quran , a perfect example for you.

Wamin haythu kharajta fawalliwajhaka shatra almasjidi alharami wahaythuma kuntum fawalloo wujoohakum shatrahu li-allayakoona lilnnasi AAalaykum hujjatun illaallatheena thalamoo minhum falatakhshawhum waikhshawnee wali-otimma niAAmatee AAalaykumwalaAAallakum tahtadoona

So from whencesoever Thou startest forth, turn Thy face in the direction of the sacred Mosque; and wheresoever ye are, Turn your face thither that there be no ground of dispute against you among the people, except those of them that are bent on wickedness; so fear them not, but fear Me; and that I may complete My favours on you, and ye May (consent to) be guided;

I can?t see Mecca in the verse.

Face nor hands are what the quran is saying - just my argument.

For almost every word I searched there is a non physical counterpart.
Does ?Kitaab? always mean physical book? Compare 2728-30 with 2052
Does ?Ain? always means physical eye? Compare 908 with 2039

Salaam,
Bender

[Bender]

Salaam,

I agree with you here... that is the reason I could not reply to your message to me &

I have to research it, inshaAllah, with my TheCreator's permission I will get back to you on this.

mmKhan

Salaam,

I already tried long time ago this aproach but without succes.

Try this one day
Please read chapter 12, the story of Yusuf. It is a straight forward story about humans and physical things.
Now select every word you find in that story and search for it in other chapters. You will almost always find an ayaat where it?s impossible to take that word as something physical. Go then back to the story of Yusuf and read the same verse with this new understanding.
You will imagine yourself in a fantasy world, where nothing seems what it?s like. After some verses you don?t even know what you are reading.

I strongly believe there is some way how to read the words. I mean a method when we have to read a word literally or figuratively.
btw the meaning of the word is always the same even if it changes from literally to figuratively.

Salaam,
Bender

[Bender]

So what you have said is ;

Its not a real hand you cut off, okay i agree.

Salaam,

Please take a look at this verse what cutting hands mean
1231 So when she heard of their scheming, she sent for them and prepared a banquet for them, and she gave each one of them a knife. And she said "Come out to them," so when they saw him they exalted him and cut their hands, and they said "Praise be to God, this is not a human being, but a blessed angel!"

But you say the eating means eating real food, but the eating of property is not eating it, yes?

does it make sense?

I believe a better translation for "kull" is "consuming" not eating. From my research the words in AlQuran have big meanings.
If it's talking about food then you can read it as eating, which is in fact also consuming but in it's more specific.

[Wakas]

salaam/peace,

Re figurative V literal

For me, I use a simple system, principally it is literal unless there is a sound reason to take it as figurative.

The "sound reason" may be logic, well attested idiomatic expression, contradiction elsewhere if taken literal, etc.

My method http//www.quran434.com/study-method.html

[savage_carrot]

Okay;

Learn to abstain from goings on which are detrimental to life.So if something is detrimental , you must stop it.

Obvously in the quran it is obligatory on us all, if we are believers, but as you know this is something enforced by the state in the west.

With the modern day camera systems and the methodolgy of accountability it does work better.

peace

Right, so um...abstain from bad things? That's the abstinence? I see.

enforced by the state in the west? you mean laws to abstain from bad things? Yes, because the east is the wild wild west, anything goes baby... and you may lose your hat upon entry 67% of the times.

Cctv and the hard arm of the law. Indeed.

Thanks mz, you went ahead and made my day.

[357]

Well Top Notch,

I will give the method , if you have the time;

See who is called a Muttaqoon,Lanes page 310.

One who gaurds against sin/ punishment and against acts of disobedience.

Now how does one do this by abstaining from acts where you sin or are punished or are disobedient.

OR by not eating.......

Top Notch you have a great mind and this is a peice of cake.

Thanks you.

[Bender]

Well Top Notch,

I will give the method , if you have the time;

See who is called a Muttaqoon,Lanes page 310.

One who gaurds against sin/ punishment and against acts of disobedience.

Now how does one do this by abstaining from acts where you sin or are punished or are disobedient.

OR by not eating.......

Top Notch you have a great mind and this is a peice of cake.

Thanks you.

Salaam,

My english is bad so probably I misunderstood something.
Do you mean that in the sahr ramadan we have only to abstain from bad things?
If so, how about the rest of the year, is it then ok?