We have the timing, now we need the METHOD

savage_carrot

Top Notch,

you are right, accept may be on one point -i think, i can give you an example.

My third son is very slim, doesn't eat much at all, but he is always busy in his studies - so much so sometimes he has to be called to the dinner table, mind you he is very talented young lad and never does anything that may be counted as bad. His hunger or going without food isn't what makes him good and talented but his keen over whelming interest in his work.

Likewise if the going without food was the all positive factor in making him good and talented then the whole muslim and hindu world would indeed be the best of the world.They have been fasting for over one thousend years, now look at them in shambles.

I understand. However things are getting conflated here...you're assuming the abstinence is supposed to protect against the crumbling of civilizations. It doesn't quite work that way, not even if you substitute food for whatever you think it's meant to stand for. There are so many factors that contribute to such shambles, I doubt we'd even be able to list all of them off hand. No one thing is going to protect against it. Multiple fronts of action are needed.

With that said, there is a difference between realising the futility/uselessness of some literal actions and the benefits that some literal actions confer. Just like there are differences in people who need or find different approaches that work for them. To force compliance/reduce it to one level of understanding only thus is actually detrimental to the overall effectiveness and impact given the diversity present in humanity.

We can understand that repeating words as a mantra (e.g.) is not going to magically make us pass an exam...is futile, useless and at worst destructive but at the same time if someone finds that reading the quran (e.g.) at a set time everyday brings them peace, focus and betterment...will we latch on to the ritual aspect and call them literal actiony fools? Thing is, just because someone finds a useless way to use something doesn't mean that someone else won't use it another way. Sometimes we are so focused on certain words/concepts that set us off, or so absorbed with what we think is the only right way to do things that we can't see the forest for the trees. Or that we aren't the only humans around.

357

Here we go...so mz, what is the abstinence all about? Regale us.

Okay;

Learn to abstain from goings on which are detrimental to life.So if something is detrimental , you must stop it.

Obvously in the quran it is obligatory on us all, if we are believers, but as you know this is something enforced by the state in the west.

With the modern day camera systems and the methodolgy of accountability it does work better.

peace

Bender

Please note;
I am not trying to chnge anybodies belief as we can be all good irrespective of the religion we follow.

Salaam,

I believe this place is not to change ones believe but to exchange our understandings and approaches so that we can learn from each other. Anyway that is how I see this forum and discussions in general.

Washing is a spiritual thing-not physical, that is to change ones character ,non believers, those who steal, who rape, who plunder wash themselves also but do not wash spiritually so as to stop their evil actions.

You can take almost everything to a spiritual level if one wishes.
Does feeding a poor person actually means giving him to eat or does it mean we have to feed someone spiritually, who is spiritually poor?

Here the food is corruption/sin from their washing.
Wala taAAamun illamin ghisleenin
"Nor hath he any food except the corruption from the washing

Where does this take place? Did you read the verses before?

Here we are unable to obey Gods command as you cannot always face macca, It is not a physical face but more to do with the character of an individual.

Wujooh is not face in the quran , a perfect example for you.

Wamin haythu kharajta fawalliwajhaka shatra almasjidi alharami wahaythuma kuntum fawalloo wujoohakum shatrahu li-allayakoona lilnnasi AAalaykum hujjatun illaallatheena thalamoo minhum falatakhshawhum waikhshawnee wali-otimma niAAmatee AAalaykumwalaAAallakum tahtadoona

So from whencesoever Thou startest forth, turn Thy face in the direction of the sacred Mosque; and wheresoever ye are, Turn your face thither that there be no ground of dispute against you among the people, except those of them that are bent on wickedness; so fear them not, but fear Me; and that I may complete My favours on you, and ye May (consent to) be guided;

I can?t see Mecca in the verse.

Face nor hands are what the quran is saying - just my argument.

For almost every word I searched there is a non physical counterpart.
Does ?Kitaab? always mean physical book? Compare 2728-30 with 2052
Does ?Ain? always means physical eye? Compare 908 with 2039

Salaam,
Bender

Bender

Salaam,

I agree with you here... that is the reason I could not reply to your message to me &

I have to research it, inshaAllah, with my TheCreator's permission I will get back to you on this.

mmKhan

Salaam,

I already tried long time ago this aproach but without succes.

Try this one day
Please read chapter 12, the story of Yusuf. It is a straight forward story about humans and physical things.
Now select every word you find in that story and search for it in other chapters. You will almost always find an ayaat where it?s impossible to take that word as something physical. Go then back to the story of Yusuf and read the same verse with this new understanding.
You will imagine yourself in a fantasy world, where nothing seems what it?s like. After some verses you don?t even know what you are reading.

I strongly believe there is some way how to read the words. I mean a method when we have to read a word literally or figuratively.
btw the meaning of the word is always the same even if it changes from literally to figuratively.

Salaam,
Bender

Bender

So what you have said is ;

Its not a real hand you cut off, okay i agree.

Salaam,

Please take a look at this verse what cutting hands mean
1231 So when she heard of their scheming, she sent for them and prepared a banquet for them, and she gave each one of them a knife. And she said "Come out to them," so when they saw him they exalted him and cut their hands, and they said "Praise be to God, this is not a human being, but a blessed angel!"

But you say the eating means eating real food, but the eating of property is not eating it, yes?

does it make sense?

I believe a better translation for "kull" is "consuming" not eating. From my research the words in AlQuran have big meanings.
If it's talking about food then you can read it as eating, which is in fact also consuming but in it's more specific.

Wakas

salaam/peace,

Re figurative V literal

For me, I use a simple system, principally it is literal unless there is a sound reason to take it as figurative.

The "sound reason" may be logic, well attested idiomatic expression, contradiction elsewhere if taken literal, etc.

My method http//www.quran434.com/study-method.html

savage_carrot

Okay;

Learn to abstain from goings on which are detrimental to life.So if something is detrimental , you must stop it.

Obvously in the quran it is obligatory on us all, if we are believers, but as you know this is something enforced by the state in the west.

With the modern day camera systems and the methodolgy of accountability it does work better.

peace

Right, so um...abstain from bad things? That's the abstinence? I see.

enforced by the state in the west? you mean laws to abstain from bad things? Yes, because the east is the wild wild west, anything goes baby... and you may lose your hat upon entry 67% of the times.

Cctv and the hard arm of the law. Indeed.

Thanks mz, you went ahead and made my day.

357

Well Top Notch,

I will give the method , if you have the time;

See who is called a Muttaqoon,Lanes page 310.

One who gaurds against sin/ punishment and against acts of disobedience.

Now how does one do this by abstaining from acts where you sin or are punished or are disobedient.

OR by not eating.......

Top Notch you have a great mind and this is a peice of cake.

Thanks you.

Bender

Well Top Notch,

I will give the method , if you have the time;

See who is called a Muttaqoon,Lanes page 310.

One who gaurds against sin/ punishment and against acts of disobedience.

Now how does one do this by abstaining from acts where you sin or are punished or are disobedient.

OR by not eating.......

Top Notch you have a great mind and this is a peice of cake.

Thanks you.

Salaam,

My english is bad so probably I misunderstood something.
Do you mean that in the sahr ramadan we have only to abstain from bad things?
If so, how about the rest of the year, is it then ok?

357

Salaam,

My english is bad so probably I misunderstood something.
Do you mean that in the sahr ramadan we have only to abstain from bad things?
If so, how about the rest of the year, is it then ok?

No it is when ever and where ever the outcome of an event is decisevely going bad or is going to be bad - to my knowledge.

Shahr doesn't mean a month.

savage_carrot

Salaam,

My english is bad so probably I misunderstood something.
Do you mean that in the sahr ramadan we have only to abstain from bad things?
If so, how about the rest of the year, is it then ok?

Your english is great imo. You didn't misunderstand...in mz'357's world everything works kinda differently.

No it is when ever and where ever the outcome of an event is decisevely going bad or is going to be bad - to my knowledge.
So we should abstain from bad things when the outcome will be bad? This just gets better and better. Why don't you, for the sake of clarity, tell us what all the words mean and how they merge together in regards to the abstinence? How and why is the abstinence different from how it's 'usually' understood? How did you come to this (please list the process)? How and why is it different from the other advice/commandments in the quran that says to abstain from bad things and tells us those bad things too? Instead of ambiguous bits and pieces of top notch evasiveness?

357

Your english is great imo. You didn't misunderstand...in mz'357's world everything works kinda differently.
So we should abstain from bad things when the outcome will be bad? This just gets better and better. Why don't you, for the sake of clarity, tell us what all the words mean and how they merge together in regards to the abstinence? How and why is the abstinence different from how it's 'usually' understood? How did you come to this (please list the process)? How and why is it different from the other advice/commandments in the quran that says to abstain from bad things and tells us those bad things too? Instead of ambiguous bits and pieces of top notch evasiveness?

The examples are in the quran;

It is essentially to avoid or abstain from situations where one may be taunted or reroached. So it is essentialy to stop problems getting out of hand, or to cool things down when tempers may be getting the better of us.

or in someone elses words;

Get away from situations where your anger might get the better of you, such as when someone is teasing you. Ignore the other person and walk away, (do it for the sake of Godliness).

peace

savage_carrot

The examples are in the quran;

It is essentially to avoid or abstain from situations where one may be taunted or reroached. So it is essentialy to stop problems getting out of hand, or to cool things down when tempers may be getting the better of us.

or in someone elses words;

Get away from situations where your anger might get the better of you, such as when someone is teasing you. Ignore the other person and walk away, (do it for the sake of Godliness).

peace

I too can make up such general pearls of wisdom but in the interests of fairness, may I ask you to elucidate the process with specifics? The abstinence is now about situations where one may be taunted or reproached? It's about anger etc now is it? How would you translate 2187?

357

I too can make up such general pearls of wisdom but in the interests of fairness, may I ask you to elucidate the process with specifics? The abstinence is now about situations where one may be taunted or reproached? It's about anger etc now is it? How would you translate 2187?

Well Top Notch,

you have said it, the situation is in the previous few ayah's 2181,182.
2187 is simply what is to be done in such a situation without letting things get too hot - best to abstain let things cool off , wife and husband are the closest to one another on consulting about situatuions concerning mutual affairs and they care about one another the most. Wakeel is a solicitor and not food you eat. Cheating people like in 181,182 has nothing to do with your sex affairs like they have translated in 187.

Like to accomodate you more , but am quite occupied at present, love to come back to it another time.

Thanks, peace

savage_carrot

Well Top Notch,

you have said it, the situation is in the previous few ayah's 2181,182.
2187 is simply what is to be done in such a situation without letting things get too hot - best to abstain let things cool off , wife and husband are the closest to one another on consulting about situatuions concerning mutual affairs and they care about one another the most. Wakeel is a solicitor and not food you eat. Cheating people like in 181,182 has nothing to do with your sex affairs like they have translated in 187.

Like to accomodate you more , but am quite occupied at present, love to come back to it another time.

Thanks, peace

The situation in ayahs 2181 etc is about husbands and wives?187 is about...husbands and wives abstaining from bad things that will lead to tempers and reproaches? I'm not sure what led you to this interpretation since you steadfastly refuse to give complete translations (as usual with the usual excuses).

357

The situation in ayahs 2181 etc is about husbands and wives?187 is about...husbands and wives abstaining from bad things that will lead to tempers and reproaches? I'm not sure what led you to this interpretation since you steadfastly refuse to give complete translations (as usual with the usual excuses).

Sorry if you can't agree ;I am not a Grammer expert and not here to challenge any Grammer experts or any translators of Arabic.

2187
During times of reprimand/avoidance you are free to discourse with your wives they are to you a protection/tilth and you to them Allah knows how you deceive yourselves and he forgives you, intercourse with them (not sex ,but counsel) and seek what allah has ordained for you consult and permeate until becomes menifestly clear to you good from bad then reprimand yourself from the dissension and do not associate with it and stay busy in your daily affairs within the limits of Allah and approach not thereto??.

Some American states have such laws;
Privileged Communication
The law of evidence includes a privilege extended to a married couple so that neither a husband nor a wife can be compelled to testify against a spouse. This rule was designed to protect intrafamily relations and privacy. In addition, it was meant to promote communication between husbands and wives by making revelations between them strictly confidential.

All the ayah's 181 to 188 are about one thing only.

I am now going away for a....., Bye.

savage_carrot

I am now going away for a....., Bye.
For a what? Smoke? Juice? Discourse?

Sorry if you can't agree ;I am not a Grammer expert and not here to challenge any Grammer experts or any translators of Arabic.
Given the way you've translated without showing how the arabic says it...I can see why you're not out to challenge. But see, I'm not looking for you to challenge, I just want you to show evidence that this is how it validly can be translated from the arabic.

What does privileged comm have to do with 2187 even the way you have translated it?

357

For a what? Smoke? Juice? Discourse?
Given the way you've translated without showing how the arabic says it...I can see why you're not out to challenge. But see, I'm not looking for you to challenge, I just want you to show evidence that this is how it validly can be translated from the arabic.

What does privileged comm have to do with 2187 even the way you have translated it?

I was showing why the intercourse with the wife.

The intercourse between a husband and wife is a privileged communication , that is the reason for the intercourse with the wife, especially when you are down on your lourels, and when you probably have something to hide.

The deception being talked about in 181,182 needs talking about with someone and who better then your wife.

peace

savage_carrot

I must say being down on ones laurels is brilliant...what does this new idiom mean though? Are you sulking on them or moping? Wait and you've hidden something from the wife? I can see why he needs the laurels now

Seriously however and as politely as possible (we all know there's a slight chance you'd be offended anyways) What on earth are you talking about!?1

181 and 182 are referring to a man hiding something which he can talk about with only his wife? And this here During times of reprimand/avoidance you are free to discourse with your wives they are to you a protection/tilth and you to them Allah knows how you deceive yourselves and he forgives you, intercourse with them (not sex ,but counsel) and seek what allah has ordained for you consult and permeate until becomes menifestly clear to you good from bad then reprimand yourself from the dissension and do not associate with it and stay busy in your daily affairs within the limits of Allah and approach not thereto??.

is telling us that the times of reprimand/avoidance are the times when a man hides something?! Allah is talking about knowing man will hide things so He forgives him and the man can confide in his wife...and um permeate? So um, flowingly diffuse yourself until good and bad is clear and scold yourself for the arguing/disagreement? Don't argue anymore etc etc. How on earth does this make sense or even relate together? On top of that you say it's from 181 to 188! When 183 introduces a difference. Why not include 190 as well while you're it? It's got fighting. And we had wife a few verses before. We haven't even come to if it's valid from the arabic.

357

I must say being down on ones laurels is brilliant...what does this new idiom mean though? Are you sulking on them or moping? Wait and you've hidden something from the wife? I can see why he needs the laurels now P

Seriously however and as politely as possible (we all know there's a slight chance you'd be offended anyways) What on earth are you talking about!?1

181 and 182 are referring to a man hiding something which he can talk about with only his wife? And this here During times of reprimand/avoidance you are free to discourse with your wives they are to you a protection/tilth and you to them Allah knows how you deceive yourselves and he forgives you, intercourse with them (not sex ,but counsel) and seek what allah has ordained for you consult and permeate until becomes menifestly clear to you good from bad then reprimand yourself from the dissension and do not associate with it and stay busy in your daily affairs within the limits of Allah and approach not thereto??.

is telling us that the times of reprimand/avoidance are the times when a man hides something?! Allah is talking about knowing man will hide things so He forgives him and the man can confide in his wife...and um permeate? So um, flowingly diffuse yourself until good and bad is clear and scold yourself for the arguing/disagreement? Don't argue anymore etc etc. How on earth does this make sense or even relate together? On top of that you say it's from 181 to 188! When 183 introduces a difference. Why not include 190 as well while you're it? It's got fighting. And we had wife a few verses before. We haven't even come to if it's valid from the arabic.

Top Notch,

sorry to have wasted your time, didn't mean to.

And no i am not offended.

brickwall

mind you because of your quistoning , believe it or not, i managed to learn a little more of the quran - which i respect very much, its got some very good advice about living a better life.

peace