WHY IBLIS CANNOT BE OTHER THAN...HOMO SAPIEN SAPIEN
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PEACE IDOL
Certainly, you have stated your definition of "jinn". Yu stated that they are humans who have a fiery disposition and don't live by a codified law from the God. But 7211 states that jinn are both righteous and wicked, can you explain how that statement fits in your line of reasoning?
Good question and here is my reasoning. All humans are born good, for Allah, created nothing evil, hence, as a species, we have an internal moral compass, which, albeit, needs to be developed, hence, Allah's revelations to us. The Jinn, for example the Christian world, does not follow any codified law of Allah, but follows their own law of "grace". This "law" is not devoid of moral correctness, but is mixed with immoral concepts, hence, though some act in a "righteous manner", they can never attain the staus of righteousness until they submit fully to Al-Quran.
PB Exactly my point. "Fire" and "clay" are obviously metaphors for human mindsets/dispositions.
I agree
Good deal.
PB Fire, as with clay, must be referring to a human being, especially, given that, fire is not literal in regard to the Jinn. So if "clay" is a metaphor for human being, then, likewise, it follows that "fire" is a metaphor for human beings.
I agree. And lets not forget about "water" which is likened to revelation. Water will put out the fire and water causes the clay to CHANGE its form.
Yes, I agree.
PB If the JINN and MEN did not look alike, then how could MEN take refuge among the JINN?
By allowing them to run thier lives (the covered thoughts).
I'm not sure what you mean here.
PB So, are Jinn, for you, "disembodied hidden thoughts" distinct from human beings floating around in the ether or are you saying that, Jinn, these hidden thoughts, are, in fact, human thoughts which are not yet in full submission to Allah?
No, I am saying that "jinn" are thoughts. They are covered from our sight which is what the root of "jinn" implies. As 7211 states, they come in two groups, righteous and wicked. The righteous ones are described as "malaika", the wicked ones are described as "shayteen".
Yes, but are you saying these "thoughts"
- emanate from the human brain?
OR
- are they independent of the human brain, that is, have an existence of their own and then can influence human beings?
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Peace be upon you brother PB,
Regarding 7211
Good question and here is my reasoning. All humans are born good, for Allah, created nothing evil, hence, as a species, we have an internal moral compass, which, albeit, needs to be developed, hence, Allah's revelations to us. The Jinn, for example the Christian world, does not follow any codified law of Allah, but follows their own law of "grace". This "law" is not devoid of moral correctness, but is mixed with immoral concepts, hence, though some act in a "righteous manner", they can never attain the staus of righteousness until they submit fully to Al-Quran.I have difficulty with that understanding for the following reasons, if one who acts in a righteous manner is not righteous, then what will "al quran" do for them? How does "al quran" effect there already righteous actions?
Also, this reading(quran) states that no matter what TITLE you give yourself, if you have faith inthe God, the ending time, and live righteously, you will have your reward with your Lord.
I ommitted the parts we agree on***
PB If the JINN and MEN did not look alike, then how could MEN take refuge among the JINN?
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By allowing them to run thier lives (the covered thoughts).I'm not sure what you mean here.
When we allow the jinn to protect us (taking refuge), instead of allowing the God to protect us and using the jinn as workers (solomon), we have failed.
PB So, are Jinn, for you, "disembodied hidden thoughts" distinct from human beings floating around in the ether or are you saying that, Jinn, these hidden thoughts, are, in fact, human thoughts which are not yet in full submission to Allah?
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No, I am saying that "jinn" are thoughts. They are covered from our sight which is what the root of "jinn" implies. As 7211 states, they come in two groups, righteous and wicked. The righteous ones are described as "malaika", the wicked ones are described as "shayteen".Yes, but are you saying these "thoughts"
- emanate from the human brain?
OR
- are they independent of the human brain, that is, have an existence of their own and then can influence human beings?
I am saying that the malaika emanate from the God and the shayteen we create in our minds because we know all that is good if from the God and evil is from our minds.
They are like radio waves, when one tunes in to a certain frequency, the information comes in.
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PEACE IDOL
Regarding 7211
Good question and here is my reasoning. All humans are born good, for Allah, created nothing evil, hence, as a species, we have an internal moral compass, which, albeit, needs to be developed, hence, Allah's revelations to us. The Jinn, for example the Christian world, does not follow any codified law of Allah, but follows their own law of "grace". This "law" is not devoid of moral correctness, but is mixed with immoral concepts, hence, though some act in a "righteous manner", they can never attain the staus of righteousness until they submit fully to Al-Quran.I have difficulty with that understanding for the following reasons, if one who acts in a righteous manner is not righteous, then what will "al quran" do for them? How does "al quran" effect there already righteous actions?
I think that much of unrighteousness is due to to misinformation, hence, as with the Christiandom, while they certainly behave righteously at times, their entire belief system is the epitome of unrighteousness.
Also, by example, when I think of Jinn, the American Indian comes to mind, in that, they had knowledge of the One God/Great Spirit in the Sky, however, they had no codified law/scripture from Allah that I know of. Hence, while being fiery they still lived by a rudimnetary moral code. Do you see my point?
When we allow the jinn to protect us (taking refuge), instead of allowing the God to protect us and using the jinn as workers (solomon), we have failed.
Well, here, anyway, you appear to be defining Jinn as corporeal/human beings, am I correct in this assumption?
PB So, are Jinn, for you, "disembodied hidden thoughts" distinct from human beings floating around in the ether or are you saying that, Jinn, these hidden thoughts, are, in fact, human thoughts which are not yet in full submission to Allah?
IDOL No, I am saying that "jinn" are thoughts. They are covered from our sight which is what the root of "jinn" implies. As 7211 states, they come in two groups, righteous and wicked. The righteous ones are described as "malaika", the wicked ones are described as "shayteen".
PB Yes, but are you saying these "thoughts" 1. emanate from the human brain? OR 2. are they independent of the human brain, that is, have an existence of their own and then can influence human beings
I am saying that the malaika emanate from the God and the shayteen we create in our minds because we know all that is good if from the God and evil is from our minds.
They are like radio waves, when one tunes in to a certain frequency, the information comes in.
You are beginning to muddy the waters/confuse the issue again with the bringing in of malaika and shaitans. Leave those things out of this. If you need to discuss the malaika, then, by all means, re-open the discussion on the "WHY IBLIS CANNOT BE AN ANGEL" thread and I will be happy to discuss it. However, for now, I simply want you to choose between these two ideas
Yes, but are you saying these JINN "thoughts"
- emanate from the human brain?
OR
- are they independent of the human brain, that is, have an existence of their own and then can influence human beings?
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Peace be upon you PB,
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I have difficulty with that understanding for the following reasons, if one who acts in a righteous manner is not righteous, then what will "al quran" do for them? How does "al quran" effect there already righteous actions?I think that much of unrighteousness is due to to misinformation, hence, as with the Christiandom, while they certainly behave righteously at times, their entire belief system is the epitome of unrighteousness.
Also, by example, when I think of Jinn, the American Indian comes to mind, in that, they had knowledge of the One God/Great Spirit in the Sky, however, they had no codified law/scripture from Allah that I know of. Hence, while being fiery they still lived by a rudimnetary moral code. Do you see my point?
Respectfully I do not, please elaborate. Keep inmind that the God says ANYONE who has faith in the God (many christians do), has faith in the ending time(many christains do), and live righteous will have thier reward(many christains do). So what is missing? Regarding jinn, I was completely lost by the example of the Indian, please elaborate.
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When we allow the jinn to protect us (taking refuge), instead of allowing the God to protect us and using the jinn as workers (solomon), we have failed.Well, here, anyway, you appear to be defining Jinn as corporeal/human beings, am I correct in this assumption?
No, I consistently am speaking of jinn as being thoughts/emotions in the unseen world within. The God is our protector, he send malaika to guide us, and then in turn we are to use emotions(energy in motion) to manifest "heaven on earth". But most peole have it backwards, they take the jinn as protectors and allow thier emotions (since they are now in the ruling position) todirect them, and that is failure.
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I am saying that the malaika emanate from the God and the shayteen we create in our minds because we know all that is good if from the God and evil is from our minds.They are like radio waves, when one tunes in to a certain frequency, the information comes in.
You are beginning to muddy the waters/confuse the issue again with the bringing in of malaika and shaitans. Leave those things out of this.
I cannot do that.
If you need to discuss the malaika, then, by all means, re-open the discussion on the "WHY IBLIS CANNOT BE AN ANGEL" thread and I will be happy to discuss it. However, for now, I simply want you to choose between these two ideas
Yes, but are you saying these JINN "thoughts"
- emanate from the human brain?
OR
- are they independent of the human brain, that is, have an existence of their own and then can influence human beings?
The righteous thoughts emanate from the God, they are meant to guide us, control our paths, just as they did when we were a seed, then a leech like clot, etc. But as we grow , the illusory life of this world starts to wear on us and we start to see things as being seperate. That is when our MINDS start to create rejecting thoughts that oppose the righteous thoughts of ONENESS and try to bring about further seperation (races/religion/gender).
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PEACE IDOL
Do this, because I don't know what you are talking yet. Of the two positions listed below, which one, A or B, best represents your position? For now, just post A or B, thanks.
These JINN "thoughts", do they
A. emanate from the human brain?
OR
B. are they independent of the human brain, that is, have an existence of their own and then can influence human beings?
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PEACE IDOL
I'm still waiting for your reply to this question; important that you respond, thanks.
Do this, because I don't know what you are talking yet. Of the two positions listed below, which one, A or B, best represents your position? For now, just post A or B, thanks.
These JINN "thoughts", do they
A. emanate from the human brain?
OR
B. are they independent of the human brain, that is, have an existence of their own and then can influence human beings?
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Peace be upon you,
My answer would be "B", because the righteus thoughts emanate from the God, the unrighteous thoughts are products of the Mind(nafs) that has developed an ego and sees itself as seperate.
Also, keep in mind that when I say MIND, I am not talking about the Human brain.
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The Jinn are defined in various lexicons as hidden spirits, creatures of fire, satans and the such, however, they are also defined as powerful men and leaders, people of fiery temperament, and people who don't live by a codifid law from Allah. Now, all of these defintions can be found in the lexicons, however, in the context of Al-Qur'an, which of them squares, jibes with, appropriately juxtaposes with, makes sense, within the context of how Allah is using JINN in Al-Qur'an? Now, I consider the definition of "powerful men and leaders, people of fiery temperament, and people who don't live by a codifid law from Allah", to be the proper use of JINN, hence, for me, that is "remaining inside of Al-Qur'an/keeping with the context of Al-Qur'an". The following ayats appear to support my assertion on this.
Salam PB,
Could you quote the lexicons where you found that jinn can mean "powerful men and leaders, people of fiery temperament, and people who don't live by a codifid law from Allah" ?
Thanks
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Peace be upon you,
My answer would be "B", because the righteus thoughts emanate from the God, the unrighteous thoughts are products of the Mind(nafs) that has developed an ego and sees itself as seperate. Also, keep in mind that when I say MIND, I am not talking about the Human brain.
Then, for you, the Jinn are not living beings, but unrighteous thoughts which emanate from MIND, but this "mind" is not human. This mind, then, exists independently of both Allah and humans, is this correct? Yes or No?
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PEACE TO ALL
In my continuing efforts to despook/demystify the Jinn, as anything but human beings, I think the following supports this effort.
SERVICE
2185 The month of Ramazan is that in which the Quran was revealed, a GUIDANCE to MEN
5156 And I have not created the JINN and the men except that they should serve Me.Main Entry SERVE to comply with the commands or demands of.
Main Entry SERVANT one that serves others one that performs duties about the person or home of a master or personal employer.
Allah, is served when His commands/laws/guidance are followed. Allahs commands/laws/guidance are contained in His Quran. Hence, if Jinn are to serve Allah, where then, do they derive their guidance as to how to serve Allah, given the fact that, Al-Quran, was sent for the guidance of men?
Given that, Allah sent guidance to men, in order that man may serve Him, then, the Jinn, likewise, must be human beings as well, because Al-Quran/guidance wasnt sent to any other creature . other than man
The following terms are alos associated with the Jinn
QAUMUN people, nation, group.
RIJALUN man male human being.
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Peace be upon you PB,
Then, for you, the Jinn are not living beings, but unrighteous thoughts which emanate from MIND, but this "mind" is not human. This mind, then, exists independently of both Allah and humans, is this correct? Yes or No?
The "mind' is part of the true self, as well as the "ruh" that the God blew into us. The "ruh" brings us the malaiaka, the mind , when corrupted, bring us the shaytaan.
(917-10) tell us that those who purifythe mind succeed and those that corrupt it fail
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PEACE IDOL
PRIEST Then, for you, the Jinn are not living beings, but unrighteous thoughts which emanate from MIND, but this "mind" is not human. This mind, then, exists independently of both Allah and humans, is this correct? Yes or No?
The "mind' is part of the true self, as well as the "ruh" that the God blew into us. The "ruh" brings us the malaiaka, the mind , when corrupted, bring us the shaytaan.
(917-10) tell us that those who purifythe mind succeed and those that corrupt it fail.
I'm sorry, but your response is extremely vague. Allah says that, before man, he created the Jinn race. You, it appears, maintain that the Jinn are "thoughts" as opposed to a "mindset", and that these "thoughts" hover around independent of a corporeal body. What, exactly, in plain English, are you proffering? Please, no symbolic/extrapolative/speculative language...just the facts.
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Peace be upon you PB,
I'm sorry, but your response is extremely vague. Allah says that, before man, he created the Jinn race. You, it appears, maintain that the Jinn are "thoughts" as opposed to a "mindset", and that these "thoughts" hover around independent of a corporeal body. What, exactly, in plain English, are you proffering? Please, no symbolic/extrapolative/speculative language...just the facts.
Brother, what I am trying to tell you takes time to reflect on, which means you have to be patient. Have you ever sat and tried to silence your thoughts? Do you see how difficult it is? Have you ever gone back and forth in your mind over a particular thing, such as wether to get some food that was unhealthy but Oh so tasty? For there to be a struggle there has to be two entities. The God says He creates ALL THINGS in pairs. You have a human side and a divine side, as do all humans. The Divine side is the RUH that the God blows into you, the other side is the ANIMAL SIDE. It is the ANIMUS that ANIMATES you. That is why the God uses the symbolisms of ANIMALS when guiding us on these subjects.
YES, the animating force (Energy in motion/e-motion) came before the human body. The atoms that form the human body are ANIMATED into action so they can come together to from the human body.
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PEACE IDOL
I'm sorry, but your response is extremely vague. Allah says that, before man, he created the Jinn race. You, it appears, maintain that the Jinn are "thoughts" as opposed to a "mindset", and that these "thoughts" hover around independent of a corporeal body. What, exactly, in plain English, are you proffering? Please, no symbolic/extrapolative/speculative language...just the facts.
Brother, what I am trying to tell you takes time to reflect on, which means you have to be patient
.The issue isn't one of patience, but rather the lack of a clear and coherent explanation of your claims.
Have you ever sat and tried to silence your thoughts? Do you see how difficult it is? Have you ever gone back and forth in your mind over a particular thing, such as wether to get some food that was unhealthy but Oh so tasty? For there to be a struggle there has to be two entities.
This struggle isn't between two sentient entities but two ideas. You sound as if we are inhabited by two different beings who war with each to determine an individuals destiny.
YES, the animating force (Energy in motion/e-motion) came before the human body. The atoms that form the human body are ANIMATED into action so they can come together to from the human body.
These animated atoms, however, are not called the Jinn. Btw, emotion doesn't exist independent of thought, but is a product of it. Likewise, thought, doesn't exist independent of the brain/matter.
You still have not show that the Jinn are anything other than homo sapien sapiens.
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deleted, my question was answered
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Peace be upon you PB,
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Brother, what I am trying to tell you takes time to reflect on, which means you have to be patientThe issue isn't one of patience, but rather the lack of a clear and coherent explanation of your claims.
I will try to be more clear as my knowledge increases, unless the God wills otherwise.
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Have you ever sat and tried to silence your thoughts? Do you see how difficult it is? Have you ever gone back and forth in your mind over a particular thing, such as wether to get some food that was unhealthy but Oh so tasty? For there to be a struggle there has to be two entities.This struggle isn't between two sentient entities but two ideas. You sound as if we are inhabited by two different beings who war with each to determine an individuals destiny.
My current understanding is that these "ideas" are energies, one comes from the lowest part of the human, the animal faculty from which emotions come. The other part in this struggle is the will. It is CLEAR that there are two forces, that is what I am saying. We can only identify the "I" with one of those areas, and most people identify the "I" as the animal part.
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YES, the animating force (Energy in motion/e-motion) came before the human body. The atoms that form the human body are ANIMATED into action so they can come together to from the human body.These animated atoms, however, are not called the Jinn.
I did not say they were, it is the actual FORCE that I am talking about. When you realize that he word "jinn" means "overed", you will realize that this force is covered from sight and can be described in that manner.
Btw, emotion doesn't exist independent of thought, but is a product of it. Likewise, thought, doesn't exist independent of the brain/matter.
Thoughts are powered by e-MOTIONS (animation), and the physical body produces electrical impulses which the brain functions by. I have said nothing different, I am very aware of the ONENESS of things, we only seperate so we can understand the parts as they are used in the WHOLE.
You still have not show that the Jinn are anything other than homo sapien sapiens.
I have shown very cleary, what has not been shown is the "omo sapien sapiens" who "descend" upon those who say and maintain that the God is ONE.
(4130) That truly those who say "Our Lord (is) God." Then they become straight/direct, the controllers(almala-ikatu) descend on them (and say) "That you do not fear and nor be saddened/grieved, and be announced good news to with (about) the Paradise which you are being promised."
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PEACE IDOL
No, I didn't forget to respond to your last post but I had to think some more about my position. I've been continuing my study of this subject and have concluded that, based on 726, Jinn and men are indeed homo sapien sapiens.
726 'True, there were men among mankind who took shelter with men among the Jinns, but they increased them in folly.
Waannahu kana rijalun mina alinsi yaAAoothoona birijalin mina aljinni fazadoohum rahaqa
According to The Dictionary of the Quran by Omar, rajala/RJL means male human beings/men.
Sura 72, isn't speaking of competing thoughts within an indvidual but rather two classes of homo sapien sapiens.
Looking forward to your response.
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Peace,
In 726 Rijal could reffers to the male from Ins and Jin. If the dictionaries restrict this word to human, the God uses it for both Ins and Jinn in the same way for the word shayateen (6112).
Another example which is a bit similar, the word bashar/human being is also used for the angel who was sent to Mary. In the light of 1917, the appearance of this angel messenger doesn't make him a human being, he remains an angel despite his appearance.
1917 (Since she was not used to mixing with people), she had chosen seclusion from them. Then We sent to her Our angel who appeared to her in the shape of a well-made human being (although he had no physical or material existence).
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PEACE MARIE, IDOL and ALL
Will respond soon, insha-Allah.
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SALAAMUN MARIE AND ALL
Peace,
In 726 Rijal could reffers to the male from Ins and Jin. If the dictionaries restrict this word to human, the God uses it for both Ins and Jinn in the same way for the word shayateen (6112).
Another example which is a bit similar, the word bashar/human being is also used for the angel who was sent to Mary. In the light of 1917, the appearance of this angel messenger doesn't make him a human being, he remains an angel despite his appearance.
1917 (Since she was not used to mixing with people), she had chosen seclusion from them. Then We sent to her Our angel who appeared to her in the shape of a well-made human being (although he had no physical or material existence).
If Ins and Jinn are two distinct physiological beings, then rijalun would only mean "male", however, if Ins and Jinns, physiologically, are the same, then rijalun holds up as "male human being". I think we can agree on this. As I posted earlier, Omars Dictionary of the Quran, doesn't use "male" at all, but "male human being; Man". Now you must decide if the Jinn are
A. invisible by nature as beings and all of the time or...
B. visible beings by nature who are inaccessible to view at times.
Remember, although Allah says that an angel took on the countenance of a bashuran, nowhere, my to knowledge, does Allah say that a Jinn took on the countenance of an ins/bashuran.
Now, if Ins and Jinn are males and invisible by nature and a physiologically distinct created species, and if the following ayats are translated correctly , then how is the following possible?
1764 And beguile whomsoever of them you can with your voice, and collect against them your forces riding and on foot, and share with them in wealth and children, and hold out promises to them; and the Shaitan makes not promises to them but to deceive
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And to Solomon (We made) the Wind (obedient) Its early morning (stride) was a month's (journey), and its evening (stride) was a month's (journey); and We made a Font of molten brass to flow for him; and there were Jinns that worked in front of him, by the leave of his Lord, and if any of them turned aside from our command, We made him taste of the Penalty of the Blazing Fire.
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They worked for him as he desired, (making) arches, images, basons as large as reservoirs, and (cooking) cauldrons fixed (in their places) "Work ye, sons of David, with thanks! but few of My servants are grateful!"
Now, have you seen or heard of any physiologically distinct male species, not to mention invisible sharing wealth and children with human beings? How can Jinn and men share in wealth and children if the Jinn are invisible, and physiologically different? If the Jinn were invisible, how then were they able to build the things described in ayat 3413?
Also consider the following
5156 I have only created Jinns and men, that they may serve Me.
How do Jinn and men serve Allah? They must submit/surrender to Gudiance--Al-Quran. There is no other Guidance that I'm aware of. Quran records...1015 But when Our Clear Signs are rehearsed unto them, those who rest not their hope on their meeting with Us, Say "Bring us a reading other than this, or change this," Say "It is not for me, of my own accord, to change it I follow naught but what is revealed unto me if I were to disobey my Lord, I should myself fear the penalty of a Great Day (to come)."
6130 "O ye assembly of Jinns and men! came there not unto you messengers from amongst you, setting forth unto you My signs, and warning you of the meeting of this Day of yours?" They will say "We bear witness against ourselves." It was the life of this world that deceived them. So against themselves will they bear witness that they rejected Faith.
The above ayat states that, messengers/rasul, came to both Jinn and men. Now, according to the following ayats, the messengers, were only human beings
4152 To those who believe in Allah and His messengers and make no distinction between any of the messengers, we shall soon give their (due) rewards for Allah is Oft- forgiving, Most Merciful.
We are told in the above ayat to make no distinction between any of the messengers. Well, if Jinn and men, physiologically speaking, are distinct from each other, and the Jinn had their own messengers, then that certainly would be a HUGE distinction between His messengers!
Now, the following ayats tell us that Allah's messengers were male human beings
2185 Ramadhan is the (month) in which was sent down the Qur'an, as a guide to mankind, also clear (Signs) for guidance and judgment (Between right and wrong)...
12109 Nor did We send before thee messengers any but men--rijalun, whom we did inspire,- (men) living in human habitations. Do they not travel through the earth, and see what was the end of those before them? But the home of the hereafter is best, for those who do right. Will ye not then understand?
1643 And before thee also the messengers We sent were but men--rijalun, to whom We granted inspiration if ye realise this not, ask of those who possess the Message.
1795 Say, "If there were settled, on earth, angels walking about in peace and quiet, We should certainly have sent them down from the heavens an angel for a messenger
2275 Allah chooses messengers from angels and from men--annasi for Allah is He Who hears and sees (all things).
2520 And the messengers whom We sent before thee were all (men) who ate food and walked through the streets We have made some of you as a trial for others will ye have patience? for Allah is One Who sees (all things).
Now, above ayat 2275 makes clear that, Allah only uses angels and men as His Messengers , hence, the Jinn could not have had their own kind messengers, , showing that, ayat 6130, cannot mean the Jinn had their own species specific messengers from among them. My understanding, based on the above ayats is that, homo sapien sapiens messengers were sent to other homo sapien sapiens some of whom are referred to as the--JINN.
Basically, then, it appears as if the argument distills down to the following two ayats. I conclude that, ayat 2275 defines who the messengers were--homo sapien sapiens.
6130 "O ye assembly of Jinns and men! came there not unto you messengers from amongst you, setting forth unto you My signs, and warning you of the meeting of this Day of yours?" They will say "We bear witness against ourselves." It was the life of this world that deceived them. So against themselves will they bear witness that they rejected Faith.
2275 Allah chooses messengers from angels and from men--annasi for Allah is He Who hears and sees (all things).
If one believes that ayat 6130 is stating that the Jinn, like men, had their own messengers, then it appears that that assertion would contradict ayat 2275. Ayat 2275 states that, Allah, chooses messengers from the angels and men and not anything else.
Looking forward to your reply.
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