I renounced my faith in the divinity of the Qur'an today

Imanajib

I must comment here, for I too have doubts about the Quran. However, I ABSOLUTELY do beleive it was sent down by God, as well as the Torah and the Gospel. But..... MAN got a hold of it, altered it, added, and subtracted to fit their liking.
I think the Quran is the less altered holy book because it was verbaly being passed.
I don't have the verse with me now, I beleive it's under "Mohamad", but when I was reading it, I felt it was added. And some other contradicting verses about killing and befriending jews and christians in one part says don't befriend them, another says it's ok.

I'm not going to get into that, but my point is, IT IS GODS WORD! Unfortunately, I believe it's altered and one day I wil post my findings and see what everyone else has to say.

Salam

GODsubmitter

Thank you brother. I must admit I am extremely surprised to find that someone here actually agreed with me or felt the same way as me. I expected only skepticism. Good luck on your journey. The thing for me was that I had to accept I arrived at my current state of belief in a search for truth. I must put my search for truth before all things.

If God is truth then I pray that He guides me to Himself. If God is not truth then I must continue my search elsewhere.

I was attracted to Islam initially because I thought it was based on rationale and logic and reasoning and welcomed a monotheistic world view that could stand the test of critical thinking and deep criticism. Only when I had the COURAGE to face my beliefs and question the validity of why I believed what I believed did I overcome the barriers blocking my way to truth.

Thank you brother!
I do agree with you and I do feel the same way as you do!
I admire your honesty for voicing clearly your sincere doubts which are mine, too.
I support you in your faithful search for Truth.
I was also attracted to Islam for the same reasons, and now I feel almost sad, as robbed, and even as someone fooled.
All that root-grammar-traslation slosh cannot deserve any serious respect.
I was even told that Quran has traps purposefully

But I just wanted to make it clear that God has no difficulty in expressing Himself, but these hurdles has been kept in AlQuraan to score your points. Who crossed more hurdles successively, he scores the most. That's simple it is.

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604075.msg301410#msg301410

strange... hurdles... games... scores... ???

How bizarre for a god...

lordfox

Yet another that leaves Quranism, I should start counting now.

But of course, I too reject what you mistakenly denote as the Qu'ran, as the translations were proven to be corrupt, and the methodology wrong. Like Jafar pointed out, you do not need the Quran, or any other book to live as an honest man, for morality is universal, and the books, only reminders. I have found that most people who have studied the "Qu'ran" have come to the same conclusions as you, but fear veils their reason, and so they continue living in a lie.

Anyway, I applaud your honest and courage. Good luck for the rest!

GODsubmitter

Yet another one that leaves Quranism, I should start counting now.

But of course, I too reject what you mistakenly denote as the Qu'ran, as the translations were proven to be corrupt, and the methodology wrong. Like Jafar pointed out, you do not need the Quran, or any other book to live as an honest man, for morality is universal, and books, only reminders.

Good luck for the rest!

So god wrote the Quran for illiterate backward and primitive Arabs only?
Or for Arab aristocracy and elite? Translations not planned?
So it is not a universal message to all humanity and for all times, or is it?

And to which rest do you wish good luck? And what about the rest of the other rest? Or the ones who are not the rest? You do not wish them luck? ???

Bigmo

Conflicts with reason and logic or conflict with the realities of life? I always believed that doubts come from the experinces of life and not the verses of the Quran. The Quran may state that God is merciful, but if you are expriencing trauma and pain its hard to comprehend that. It might state that God is fully aware of what we do and He supports the rigteous.Tthat is hard to believe when you are down and oppressed.Iit may say the disbelievers will never prosper but that is hard to understand when your boss is one like that and has the upper hand over you. It may state etc, etc, etc.

lordfox

So god wrote the Quran for illiterate backward and primitive Arabs only?
Or for Arab aristocracy and elite? Translations not planned?
So it is not a universal message to all humanity and for all times, or is it?

And to which rest do you wish good luck? And what about the rest of the other rest? Or the ones who are not the rest? You do not wish them luck? ???

Why are you seeking defiance ? I meant good luck for the rest of his spiritual journey and life in general, I really cannot see how you misunderstood this. As for your question, it is interesting, the same could be argued for the previous revelations as well and sincerely, I do not know. How can a message be clear, when it cannot be understood universally, and can easily be intentionally obscured ? I am still unsure as to if, the Qu'ran claims itself to be for all times, and if it does, how and why, so I will abstain from commenting on that issue.

Bender

First seeming contradiction is the creation of the universe one. Several verses say the universe was made in 6 days or 6 periods or 6 eras or what have you.

But verse 419-12 adds the days up to 8. It took 2 days to create earth, 4 days to fill it up, and another 2 days to create the heavens.

Next is the verses about the Christians and the Jews. We have verses saying that they can go to paradise(262, 569) and then we have verses saying not to take them as friends(551). What sense does this make? Furthermore we have a verse saying to slay them(929).

Next, the Qur'an says that all good is from Allah and all evil is from ourselves right after it just told us that all good that befalls us is by Allah's command (478,79). I argued this with a companion the other day and he didn't believe me until I showed him the verse. When I voiced my concern he simply said to ask someone of knowledge.

The Qur'an says that he creates man from a clot (of blood?) but that goes against science.

The Qur'an says in 541 that the moon was cleft asunder. I guess the way to explain this is that it is a figurative not a literal verse. Quite convenient.

The biggest problem I have is a logical concept. God says in the Qur'an that NOBODY believes except by His will (10100)

He goes on in the Qur'an several times to say that He hardens peoples hearts against belief and guides to Himself whom He wills and misguides others(1693).

Now why would an all-Merciful and all-Powerful God punish someone who He Himself has decreed should not believe in Him? This makes no logical sense.

EDIT What I will now propose are verses that are not contradictory in nature but I take issue with on moral or logical grounds.

First we have verse 434 which allows us to beat our wives. I take moral issue with this. Then We have the NUMEROUS verses about being able to have sexual relations with "those whom our right hands possess". Not only does this condone slavery but it also condones female sex slaves that are gained through war. God condones slavery and having sex with female captives?

The next verse I have issue with are verses that seem to serve the interest of Muhammad and don't seem too relevant for the believers. The seemingly self-serving verses where I can see the biases of a 7th century man seeping through. If this is the direct word of God, the universal message from God to ALL humans of ALL time periods, then that means every single letter of this revelation is crucial to mankind's salvation.

So why in the world do I find myself reading rules about when I go to the Prophet's house I should not annoy him and I should leave as soon as I'm finished with my business, I cannot look at his wives unless from behind a veil, nobody can marry his wives after he dies, and he is allowed more wives than other believers (3350-3353). These are the signs of a cult. These "revelations" seem to directly benefit Muhammad and seem somewhat petty for an omniscient God to be revealing to all mankind.

Now finally we have one of the verses of the sword. Verse 929. My issue with how we reconcile these verses is people always tell me I'm reading out of context. That I need the historical context in which Muhammad was at war with the tribes of Bani Israel and so it doesn't apply to me anymore.

if this verse applies to only single point in human history, and the Qur'an is God's revelation for ALL mankind of ALL times then why is it even there?

Why would God give us verses He doesn't want us to follow? Who chooses which verses should still be followed and which ones should be discarded and applied to only the believers of Muhammad's time?

Salaam,

Thanks for sharing these "contraditions" and "problems" in The Quran.
I am not sure if you can read arabic characters, if you can then please read the verses again. Half of the things you mentioned is simply because of bad translations. Allah uses precise words, while in translations you can have 10 different translations for 1 arabic word or they translate 10 different arabic words in 1 way.
The other half of the problem is that you use hadiths and other sources besides The Quran to understand The Quran. I know you don't do this on purpose as this still effects all of us in some way without noticing it even when we claim that we are Quran alone.

Please try to take a fresh look on it. Just start over again but this time with a clear mind, thus without hadith understandings and other sources.
If you can't read the arabic characters and you are to lazy to to learn the arabic letters then a transliteration is more then enough.

Salaam,
Bender

GODsubmitter

You know, @Faithful-Jinn, I actually wanted, needed, and so much hoped, the Quran to be of God, and to be the real direct word of God, so much so, to avoid being led and misguided by humans, not to be at the mercy of transient and whimsical human opinions...

But it just resulted an impossibility for one who is not Arab-speaking, one is dependent on human explanations and translations, and sheer luck can save you from total slosh in meanings and significations.
I realized that no better situation is for Arab-speaking neither.
So we are all forced to be referred and addressed to one another trying to clarify the mishmash with feeble and poor human means .

Hence the proliferation and creation of hadiths. No wonder. Hadiths are in. Mere need.

What a huge deception that God cannot express himself to all humanity and for all times... )

Or "He" enjoys engaging us in verbal and grammatical jugglery all the time?

GODsubmitter

Why are you seeking defiance ? I meant good luck for the rest of his spiritual journey and life in general, I really cannot see how you misunderstood this. As for your question, it is interesting, the same could be argued for the previous revelations as well and sincerely, I do not know. How can a message be clear, when it cannot be understood universally, and can easily be intentionally obscured ? I am still unsure as to if, the Qu'ran claims itself to be for all times, and if it does, how and why, so I will abstain from commenting on that issue.

I am sorry if I misunderstood your good wishes.
One should learn to express himself promptly in spite of media being the computer )

Thank you for sharing your doubts, too.
But you see, the previous Scriptures never claimed to be direct word of God or from god, just inspired by god...

Bender

You know, @Faithful-Jinn, I actually needed, and so much hoped, the Quran to be of God and the direct word of God, so to avoid being led and misguided by humans!

But it just resulted an impossibility for one who is not Arab-speaking, one is dependent on human explanations and translations, and sheer luck can save you from total slosh in meanings and significations.
I realized that no better situation is for Arab-speaking neither.

Hence the proliferation and creation of hadiths. No wonder. Hadiths are in. Mere need.

What a huge deception that God cannot express himself to all humanity and for all times...

Or he enjoys us engaging in verbal and grammatical jugglery all the time?

Salaam,

This is not funny
It's not Allah who can't express his words but you are the one who is blind and deaf because you choose to be blind and deaf.
Please reconsider your words about Allah.

From your posts I can only see that you post youtube films and articles by others.
Did you ever tried to listen to The Quran so that you can learn the characters of The Book so that you can study yourself the language of The Quran or do you want others to do the work for you and then complain that Allah can't express Himself?

IAMOP

Conflicts with reason and logic or conflict with the realities of life? I always believed that doubts come from the experinces of life and not the verses of the Quran. The Quran may state that God is merciful, but if you are expriencing trauma and pain its hard to comprehend that. It might state that God is fully aware of what we do and He supports the rigteous.Tthat is hard to believe when you are down and oppressed.Iit may say the disbelievers will never prosper but that is hard to understand when your boss is one like that and has the upper hand over you. It may state etc, etc, etc.

A very wise post indeed.

In this thread we see a very marked & common outcome of Sunni-ism's overruling of Sufi-ism. It's amazing how a struggle from back then is still sending shockwaves here and now. What do I mean by that? Had sufism been the dominant sect then most people would have approached God experientally rather than trying to logically piece together things. The problem with the logical approach is that incomplete information but perfect logic leads to grievously harmful conclusions as demonstrated in this thread.

We can never really know enough to say much. Had the OP and others approached their 'islam' from the meditative side they may have perhaps noticed God within themselves. From that side it is much easier to then fill in the logical aspects remaining aware of the incompleteness of one's knowledge and all the while the experiential evidence of God's presence alone is enough to keep doubt from gripping so hard it breaks the rope that God extends to a soul. How strange seeing people deny something that I could not dispute if I tried purely because my experience alone could not lie to me, to go against that would be to deny that which I am and to do that would be like closing my eyes and pretending I had never seen.

Or by analogy, to catch a glimpse of the finished puzzle thusly knowing that the pieces I have will fit, merely a matter of when.

GODsubmitter

Salaam,

This is not funny
It's not Allah who can't express his words but you are the one who is blind and deaf because you choose to be blind and deaf.
Please reconsider your words about Allah.

From your posts I can only see that you post youtube films and articles by others.
Did you ever tried to listen to The Quran so that you can learn the characters of The Book so that you can study yourself the language of The Quran or do you want others to do the work for you and then complain that Allah can't express Himself?

I might ask you to apologize to me for the insult of saying I am blind and deaf! I expect fair play and good manners even from Muslims!

I do not allow you to judge my studies of the Quran by what I post!
And, being proficient in several languages, I've read the Quran many, many times, and listened to chanting of it in Arabic, too.

If I was not born Arab-speaking, does it mean that god cannot talk to me "directly"?
Besides, what are you trying to prove?
Who are you trying to convince to what?
Does Quran need your defense? Does God?

The only thing I do agree with you is that it is a serous matter!

Peace
peace

Bigmo

I might ask you to apologize to me for the insult of saying I am blind and deaf! I expect fair play and good manners even from Muslims!

I do not allow you to judge my studies of the Quran by what I post!
And, being proficient in several languages, I've read the Quran many, many times, and listened to chanting of it in Arabic, too.

If I was not born Arab-speaking, does it mean that god cannot talk to me "directly"?
Besides, what are you trying to prove?
Who are you trying to convince to what?
Does Quran need your defense? Does God?

The only thing I do agree with you is that it is a serous matter!

Peace
peace

Than what are you doing in a Quranist forum? If you don't believe in the Quran and are not interested in it than why are you here? I don't understand people coming here telling us they lost faith and stuff. Do you want us to convince you otherwise? Or do you expect that maybe you can convince some here to do the same you did? I am not sure what are you gaining here if not to some how provoke people.

lordfox

Than what are you doing in a Quranist forum? If you don't believe in the Quran and are not interested in it than why are you here? I don't understand people coming here telling us they lost faith and stuff. Do you want us to convince you otherwise? Or do you expect that maybe you can convince some here to do the same you did? I am not sure what are you gaining here if not to some how provoke people.

Why are you angry ? You're starting to act as the religious sunnis when they find out that someone has left their religion. Perhaps you are of the purified, and never felt that you were losing belief in your present spirituality, even though, let the others doubt, for it is part of the path. They are bringing up their concerns and doubts, you should, instead of posting such, answer and explain all of their questions if you can.

savage_carrot

Than what are you doing in a Quranist forum? If you don't believe in the Quran and are not interested in it than why are you here? I don't understand people coming here telling us they lost faith and stuff. Do you want us to convince you otherwise? Or do you expect that maybe you can convince some here to do the same you did? I am not sure what are you gaining here if not to some how provoke people.

Prior experience with such suggests it may be for venting (disillusionment, anger, disappointment etc) , for support (who else is with me?), for an audience/attention while making an announcement (hear ye all)...or a mixture. Very rarely is it that such involves a change of heart (yet again) back to more familiar roads so to say or an acknowledgement of errors/lack of information etc at the time. Usually people don't (shouldn't) make such decisions on the spur of the moment, and it takes time and willingness to keep searching/analysing during which it is possible that they may realise what/where they went wrong and things fall into place and/or find a different road that may or not be better for them etc. I agree however that after a round of the usual, it's best to part ways. Some don't

Faithful-Jinn

Salaam,

Thanks for sharing these "contraditions" and "problems" in The Quran.
I am not sure if you can read arabic characters, if you can then please read the verses again. Half of the things you mentioned is simply because of bad translations. Allah uses precise words, while in translations you can have 10 different translations for 1 arabic word or they translate 10 different arabic words in 1 way.
The other half of the problem is that you use hadiths and other sources besides The Quran to understand The Quran. I know you don't do this on purpose as this still effects all of us in some way without noticing it even when we claim that we are Quran alone.

Please try to take a fresh look on it. Just start over again but this time with a clear mind, thus without hadith understandings and other sources.
If you can't read the arabic characters and you are to lazy to to learn the arabic letters then a transliteration is more then enough.

Salaam,
Bender

WHAT?!

When did I ever say I use the sunnah or hadith to understand the Qur'an?! I've always been an outright opponent of hadith literature and the idolatry of the Sunnah. Why else do you think I've been a member of this for years? What an insane and inaccurate assumption about me...

Also quite funny because I was enamored by Sufi literature as a convert and love all of the Sufi concepts of universalism, oneness with God, dhikr, etc.

Next, I don't speak Arabic! You're calling me lazy because I wasn't born in an Arabic speaking country?! What an ignorant insult. You're exercising the same air of Arabic superiority that the Sunnis practice. First off, it makes no sense for me to read a transliteration (which I have) because I don't understand the words. Second, you're telling me that God only wants his revelation for all mankind over all time periods to be understood by 7th century Arabs! Even those who speak Arabic likely don't fully grasp the full meanings of the classical Arabic used in the Qur'an so I guess we should all give up on salvation according to you.

Apparently the Creator of the entire universe for some reason or another, either could not or would not create a book that would translate clearly and concisely no matter which language you speak. Only 17% of the 3 billion Muslims on this planet speak Arabic as a native language.

Also I highly doubt that Arabic speakers all understand EVERY single word of Al-Qur'an in the same exact way even though they all speak the language because when they mentally internalize it likely takes a slightly different meaning to all of them.

You are using the typical Sunni arguments for someone who doesn't understand Al-Qur'an in the same exact way they expect.

You don't understand Arabic so you're not qualified to understand, question, or criticize.
You don't read it in the proper context.

As for how my contradictions were wrong, maybe there were. I can only read and try to understand and use my human reason. Logically many of the premises of the Abrahamic faiths in general has lost a lot of color and substance to me however. I wish for Islam to be true and I embraced it fully so why would God make me a disbeliever? Do you not acknowledge that it is only through His will that I can believe?

A very wise post indeed.

In this thread we see a very marked & common outcome of Sunni-ism's overruling of Sufi-ism. It's amazing how a struggle from back then is still sending shockwaves here and now. What do I mean by that? Had sufism been the dominant sect then most people would have approached God experientally rather than trying to logically piece together things. The problem with the logical approach is that incomplete information but perfect logic leads to grievously harmful conclusions as demonstrated in this thread.

We can never really know enough to say much. Had the OP and others approached their 'islam' from the meditative side they may have perhaps noticed God within themselves. From that side it is much easier to then fill in the logical aspects remaining aware of the incompleteness of one's knowledge and all the while the experiential evidence of God's presence alone is enough to keep doubt from gripping so hard it breaks the rope that God extends to a soul. How strange seeing people deny something that I could not dispute if I tried purely because my experience alone could not lie to me, to go against that would be to deny that which I am and to do that would be like closing my eyes and pretending I had never seen.

Or by analogy, to catch a glimpse of the finished puzzle thusly knowing that the pieces I have will fit, merely a matter of when.

This is pure foolishness. I was more a student of Sufi philosophy than any other school of thought. I've never once been a Sunni and have always outright rejected them.

I "experienced God" many times and on many different levels. So much so that if you would have asked me 2 months ago how real God was not only would I say that God is real, I would say he is in fact more real than me standing before you!

But I have to be reasonable and open in accepting that MAYBE I'm creating the experience of God in my mind and so I decided to take a step back from just my "feelings" and "experience" and be objective, logical, and reasonable in whether or not my beliefs were VALID.

If Islam is not the enemy of logic and reason, and it invites questioning then this type of experiment should not be a problem. But apparently it was a problem for me because I have not recovered from my doubt.

Noon_waalqalami

Prior experience with such suggests it may be for venting (disillusionment, anger, disappointment etc) , for support (who else is with me?), for an audience/attention while making an announcement (hear ye all)...or a mixture. Very rarely is it that such involves a change of heart (yet again) back to more familiar roads so to say or an acknowledgement of errors/lack of information etc at the time. Usually people don't (shouldn't) make such decisions on the spur of the moment, and it takes time and willingness to keep searching/analysing during which it is possible that they may realise what/where they went wrong and things fall into place and/or find a different road that may or not be better for them etc. I agree however that after a round of the usual, it's best to part ways. Some don't

291
292 calculate/figure the mankind that they?ll be left lest/that they say we believe and they not be tested

GODsubmitter

My admiration for you @Faithful-Jinn only increases after each of your posts and answers to members!

I was also very much imbedded in Sufism, and quite eagerly and seriously though, but realized that a subjective hippie "oceanic" feeling of "god inside" is not enough, except for narcissistic ego-trips of delusional people who take religion as a substitute for so many things.

Some answers and opinions on this thread from people without tolerance is just amazing...

Bigmo

Why are you angry ? You're starting to act as the religious sunnis when they find out that someone has left their religion. Perhaps you are of the purified, and never felt that you were losing belief in your present spirituality, even though, let the others doubt, for it is part of the path. They are bringing up their concerns and doubts, you should, instead of posting such, answer and explain all of their questions if you can.

I am not angry. He can doubt all he wants. But what exactly is he doing here? And why should I answer their questions if they are not going to be interested. He obviously left the faith and decided to do so. What exactly he is doing in a Quranist forum beats me. We are told in the Quran to avoid people who are not interested. I still believe the goal here is to try to persuade us out of the faith or else why will he be here. If he wanted us to answer question he would have done it before not after he lost faith. I have seen this before. He will simply take the interpretation that will justify his decision. I hate wasting time and wasting other people's time. There are many atheist forums where he can have people who share his views. But what is he doing here? If I lost faith and decided to do so I will not want to debate those who believe in scriptures. What for? Its like people like that are bothered that others have faith and want to give them a hard time by arguing back and forth.

We shall see his intention.

Faithful-Jinn

I am not angry. He can doubt all he wants. But what exactly is he doing here? And why should I answer their questions if they are not going to be interested. He obviously left the faith and decided to do so. What exactly he is doing in a Quranist forum beats me. We are told in the Quran to avoid people who are not interested. I still believe the goal here is to try to persuade us out of the faith or else why will he be here. If he wanted us to answer question he would have done it before not after he lost faith. I have seen this before. He will simply take the interpretation that will justify his decision. I hate wasting time and wasting other people's time. There are many atheist forums where he can have people who share his views. But what is he doing here? If I lost faith and decided to do so I will not want to debate those who believe in scriptures. What for? Its like people like that are bothered that others have faith and want to give them a hard time by arguing back and forth.

We shall see his intention.

I didn't know when I would lose my faith. It just happened 2 days ago. Should I have told myself not to stop believing until I checked in with the almighty Bigmo and my other compatriots here at free-minds? What a ridiculous and asinine statement to make. And for your information I made a topic about how I was becoming doubtful of the divinity of the Qur'an about 1-2 weeks ago on the Quranic divinity section so that makes your statement all the more ignorant.

I don't care what you believe I'm simply sharing my own thoughts and views with like minded people. I thought this forum was for everyone be they Jews, Muslims, Christians, agnostics, and atheists to discuss religious and theological issues concerning the Qur'an and God alone. Apparently I've been on the wrong forum for the past 2-3 years.

It seems you are the one who is being close minded and uninterested here. I want to debate because I practiced God alone Islam for years in my life so of course I would discuss my deconversion with other like minded people. Perhaps I was wrong or made a mistake and someone can provide me with evidence to change my mind or perhaps my reasoning is valid and I can help other people find truth.

The way you're stating your position it seems you don't think anyone with conflicting views should be on this forum and you seem like an angry child who doesn't want to play with the other kids who don't follow his rules.

Judging by your reaction alone I would have to conclude that religion truly is an enemy to difficult questions, logical thought, critical thinking, and open discussion. I came here not to offend anyone or waste anyone's time but to share my own ideas and thoughts. Apparently you find some part of that offensive. I seek only knowledge and truth.

If you don't like wasting your time then leave my topic. I didn't force you to post here.