I renounced my faith in the divinity of the Qur'an today

GODsubmitter

Gentlemen, your petty little personal opinions are quite irrelevant and boring.

The issue here is simply that some of us came to believe that Quran is NOT direct from god, nor the word of god, nor the message for humanity nor for all times.

We came here to learn and find someone to teach us otherwise, or show us evidence that we made wrong conclusions perhaps.

Please debate in a spirit of fair play and with good manners which I expect even from Muslims.

Thank you

justamuslim

You could have easily looked at many threads opened here regarding the issues you raised. But you want to take us on a wild goose chase.

We shall see.

with all do respect, defining someone is not right. we can question or talk about someone's actions but not talk about intentions or motivations Bigmo. faithful-jinn hasn't come out and said so himself what his purpose or intentions are. from what he has shared, he came to accept the koran and recently came to reject. now if he is so resolute in his rejection then no matter what he will never believe (as God says). if his motivation is to get people to join him in his rejection, those who want to join him will.

anyhow, what i would hate to see is if people stop sharing their thoughts, views, beliefs, opinions, experiences, doubts, etc.

justamuslim

@faithful-jinn,

you are right. i don't believe in what you believe in. and you don't believe in what i believe in. to you your way and to me my way.

ok so now that you have rejected the koran, how do you feel? have you rejected God also? so what are you now? Atheist? Agnostic? what does it mean to you to reject the Koran?

Faithful-Jinn

@faithful-jinn,

you are right. i don't believe in what you believe in. and you don't believe in what i believe in. to you your way and to me my way.

ok so now that you have rejected the koran, how do you feel? have you rejected God also? so what are you now? Atheist? Agnostic? what does it mean to you to reject the Koran?

Not so fast! You didn't address my main points for you quite yet.

You yourself admitted the Qur'an is not fully logical. Why then would you choose to believe in a book that is illogical? By the Qur'an's own criteria if there is contradiction it is not from God. Do you not ponder on the verses?
The whole thing with free will and belief. God has said that He doesn't even want us all to believe. He chooses who believes in Him and who disbelieves. We have no power over it unless you think that I have the power to frustrate the plans of God.

Are you suggesting that it is in any way reasonable or logical to create human beings, arbitrarily decide that some will believe and some won't immaterial of their own choice, then reward one group and punish the other? Why would an all-loving God make some of us destined for hell and some destined for heaven. That is not Merciful or Loving.

Are you in any way open to the possibility that perhaps the books of scripture which we humans call holy are not actually from God?

good_logic

Peace all.

This forum is for debating views /ideas. All have the right to have their say. We are responsible to check and double check these views /ideas.

However those expecting people from this forum to give them answers/guide them to the truth are missing the point in all GOD s scripture.

GOD calls it" Idol worship". Only GOD Alone teaches/ explains/ guides to the truth.

GOD s criteria is submission and total loyalty to HIM Alone. Only trust in GOD. Do not rely on anyone else.

GOD tries your loyalty and sincerity.

May HE guide all those who seek HIM Alone and trust only in HIM.
Peace.

Faithful-Jinn

Peace all.

This forum is for debating views /ideas. All have the right to have their say. We are responsible to check and double check these views /ideas.

However those expecting people from this forum to give them answers/guide them to the truth are missing the point in all GOD s scripture.

GOD calls it" Idol worship". Only GOD Alone teaches/ explains/ guides to the truth.

GOD s criteria is submission and total loyalty to HIM Alone. Only trust in GOD. Do not rely on anyone else.

GOD tries your loyalty and sincerity.

May HE guide all those who seek HIM Alone and trust only in HIM.
Peace.

How do you contact God. You say something about idol worship. I believe that the Qur'an is an idol. I've never personally spoken to God in any form, nor any of his angels.

The only symbol I have of God's message, attributes, wants, dislikes, desires, laws, etc. is the Qur'an. The Qur'an was the ultimate authority in my life. Do you understand what I'm getting at?

I'm not saying I worshipped the Qur'an but as the only medium that I as a Muslim have for God's guidance, the Qur'an is in a certain way an idol. You say trust in God alone and seek only Him.

How do you know what God wants or doesn't want? How do you know you're pleasing him or displeasing Him? Is he speaking to you personally? Did he send the angel Gabriel to let you know? The only source of evidence you have for your beliefs is the Qur'an. You put your faith in a book that is supposedly perfect and divine. If this book is shown to be imperfect and not actually divine then your belief crumbles and has no legs to stand on.

So what do you need the Qur'an for? If all you need is God then why do you need these books? Do you think the Qur'an is necessary to be a Muslim?

I don't want anyone to guide me to the truth here I simply want to discuss possibilities and ideas.

justamuslim

@faithful-jinn

what is your point?

i will state my beliefs clearly. i believe in God who is part of my life/existence. I believe in the hereafter. I believe in all of God's scriptures taking the Koran as my source of guidance in my life. I believe that the Koran is the word of God. It is complete.

If I find contradictions, it is not that God lied or is flawed. It means that I am in error in my understanding. if you apply logic and reason, the koran may not make sense. doesn't mean that koran is faulty. what is faulty is in my understanding, thinking, feeling, interpretation, etc. I question, ponder, reflect, wonder....but I am firm in my belief. as i said given my life experiences, i should be the first to reject the koran. i have in the past turned away from God but as bigmo said, we need to be honest to ourselves as to why. so, you can find me illogical, irrational, even crazy or mad in believing in the Koran.

as God says, the Koran is free of doubt and a guidance for those who preserve themselves from evil and follow the straight path. you, faithful-jinn, are not one of them. you made that choice. did God turn you to disbelief was it satan? it is satan's full time job to turn us away from the path of God. satan does his job by having you think and also by not having you think. he appeals to your emotions, your intellect. satan never rests. but satan has no power except of what you give him. i seek refuge in God from satan. i choose to follow the path of abraham, moses, jesus, muhammed. i choose to follow this straight path. i turned to God at a young age asking God for guidance as i questioned the islam that was taught to me as well as christianity, hinduism. yes, it was God who has guided me.

to you faithful-jinn, koran is contradictory, illogical and you can't understand questioning why people would believe in such a holy book. i suppose you can blame God for leading me to believe in His lies. yes, it is all God's fault that I believe in the holy book!

Faithful-Jinn

@faithful-jinn

what is your point?

i will state my beliefs clearly. i believe in God who is part of my life/existence. I believe in the hereafter. I believe in all of God's scriptures taking the Koran as my source of guidance in my life. I believe that the Koran is the word of God. It is complete.

If I find contradictions, it is not that God lied or is flawed. It means that I am in error in my understanding. if you apply logic and reason, the koran may not make sense. doesn't mean that koran is faulty. what is faulty is in my understanding, thinking, feeling, interpretation, etc. I question, ponder, reflect, wonder....but I am firm in my belief. as i said given my life experiences, i should be the first to reject the koran. i have in the past turned away from God but as bigmo said, we need to be honest to ourselves as to why. so, you can find me illogical, irrational, even crazy or mad in believing in the Koran.

as God says, the Koran is free of doubt and a guidance for those who preserve themselves from evil and follow the straight path. you, faithful-jinn, are not one of them. you made that choice. did God turn you to disbelief was it satan? it is satan's full time job to turn us away from the path of God. satan does his job by having you think and also by not having you think. he appeals to your emotions, your intellect. satan never rests. but satan has no power except of what you give him. i seek refuge in God from satan. i choose to follow the path of abraham, moses, jesus, muhammed. i choose to follow this straight path. i turned to God at a young age asking God for guidance as i questioned the islam that was taught to me as well as christianity, hinduism. yes, it was God who has guided me.

to you faithful-jinn, koran is contradictory, illogical and you can't understand questioning why people would believe in such a holy book. i suppose you can blame God for leading me to believe in His lies. yes, it is all God's fault that I believe in the holy book!

I'm being very honest with myself. It would have been very easy for me to believe as you believe and keep blaming myself for why this book doesn't make sense. Of course since I don't share your beliefs I'm unpure and have been influenced by shaitan.

Tell me how can shaitan influence anyone when God says in the Qur'an that He is the Creator of both good and evil? That all things come from Allah? Nothing happens outside of His will.

Are you now telling me that shaitan is more powerful than God? That shaitan has the power to frustrate God's plans and lead his creation astray?

It doesn't bother you that your book even admits that God doesn't even want us all to believe? What kind of sick game is He playing with us then?

I can see you didn't bother to answer my questions so I guess you don't want to be open minded to my questioning. In your eyes I'm a sinful fool with weak faith. In my eyes you're deluded and seduced by the promises of the words of men.

mmkhan

AlQuraan is just the medium. It has been send to show us the path towards our TheCreator.

Unfortunately, people take Nabis, Rasools and AlQuraan as idols besides God. I agree on that. But all of them are just to make us aware of Allah, and let us know what is God and why we have been created, etc.

mmKhan

ayman

More appeals to translation. I know the concept of Islam. All things animate and inanimate from the clouds to the animal kingdom to mankind submits to the Creator, willingly or unwillingly.
That's just a nice idea though. In reality there is nothing to submit to because the basis for this idea is that the Qur'an tells me this and the only reason to listen to the Qur'an is its claim to be the direct word of God.
Once it is understood though that the Qur'an is not in fact the word of God, then I have no reason to believe in submission or pleasing some external universal force that reads my thoughts, feels my emotions, listens to me and watches me 24/7 so He can judge me when I die.

Typical ugly face of illogical thinking and simple minded arrogance rears its end after an initial post that seemed oh so nice

It is not my problem that you believe like Sunnis and 19ers that submission is the meaning. In Arabic submission means khedoo' while in English it can mean a bunch of things including a sexual fetish

Heck even some 19ers like Edip woke up and don't believe in Khalifa's Submission falsehood anymore.

So you wrongly translate the word islam and are so clueless that you didn't even attempt to translate the word quran . Good that you showed us how you really think.

Peace,

Ayman

Faithful-Jinn

Typical ugly face of illogical thinking and simple minded arrogance rears its end after an initial post that seemed oh so nice

It is not my problem that you believe like Sunnis and 19ers that submission is the meaning. In Arabic submission means khedoo' while in English it can mean a bunch of things including a sexual fetish

Heck even some 19ers like Edip woke up and don't believe in Khalifa's Submission falsehood anymore.

So you wrongly translate the word islam and are so clueless that you didn't even attempt to translate the word quran . Good that you showed us how you really think.

Peace,

Ayman

Okay. Instead of responding to my clueless ignorance with your insulting response why don't you educate us and explain what it actually means?

Or are you satisfied in responding like an arrogant douchebag without spreading the vast amount of knowledge you seem to have over the rest of the Islamic world like the Sunnis and the 19ers (neither of which group I've ever belonged to)?

Not to mention that the meaning of the word submission has very little to do with my argument of whether or not the Qur'an is the word of God or written by men.

Bender

I might ask you to apologize to me for the insult of saying I am blind and deaf! I expect fair play and good manners even from Muslims!

I do not allow you to judge my studies of the Quran by what I post!
And, being proficient in several languages, I've read the Quran many, many times, and listened to chanting of it in Arabic, too.

If I was not born Arab-speaking, does it mean that god cannot talk to me "directly"?
Besides, what are you trying to prove?
Who are you trying to convince to what?
Does Quran need your defense? Does God?

The only thing I do agree with you is that it is a serous matter!

Peace
peace

Salaam,

tempt

Ok sorry if you felt insulted.

Just remember this next time when you talk about Allah, even if you don't believe in it (just for the 0,000...0001% chance that it is from Allah).
621 And who is more wicked than he who invents lies about God, or denies His revelations! The wicked will never succeed.

bye,
Bender

Bender

WHAT?!

When did I ever say I use the sunnah or hadith to understand the Qur'an?! I've always been an outright opponent of hadith literature and the idolatry of the Sunnah. Why else do you think I've been a member of this for years? What an insane and inaccurate assumption about me...

Salaam,

You didn?t say it but I was telling you. And you are not the only one, everyone here including myself are still infected. We do this without noticing it. That?s why we see contraditions and don?t understand things.

Let me give you some examples you mentioned

moon split during Muhammad?s time
slaying christains and jews
Seks with slaves
Beating your wife
Verses that seems the interest of Muhammed and don?t seem to relevant to believers
Now from where did you got this understandings? I can tell you that it?s not what the Quran says, it's from the hadiths and other sources.

I already gave you in an other thread the next verses but inshaAllah you will understand them now better
5677 It is an honorable Quran.
5678 In a protected Book.
5679 None can grasp it except those purified.
5680 A revelation from the Lord of the worlds.

Next, I don't speak Arabic!

me neither.

You're calling me lazy because I wasn't born in an Arabic speaking country?! What an ignorant insult. You're exercising the same air of Arabic superiority that the Sunnis practice.

I didn't say you are lazy, I said IF you are lazy. I myself am very lazy for learning such things.

First off, it makes no sense for me to read a transliteration (which I have) because I don't understand the words. Second, you're telling me that God only wants his revelation for all mankind over all time periods to be understood by 7th century Arabs! Even those who speak Arabic likely don't fully grasp the full meanings of the classical Arabic used in the Qur'an so I guess we should all give up on salvation according to you.

Why I said you can use the transliteration is because then you can compare the contradicting verses, without even knowing the language. It was just an advise.

Believe me my arabic is worse then that of a 3 years old boy. I can only read arabic with great difficulty and only reading without understanding.

Apparently the Creator of the entire universe for some reason or another, either could not or would not create a book that would translate clearly and concisely no matter which language you speak. Only 17% of the 3 billion Muslims on this planet speak Arabic as a native language.

Also I highly doubt that Arabic speakers all understand EVERY single word of Al-Qur'an in the same exact way even though they all speak the language because when they mentally internalize it likely takes a slightly different meaning to all of them.

You are using the typical Sunni arguments for someone who doesn't understand Al-Qur'an in the same exact way they expect.

You don't understand Arabic so you're not qualified to understand, question, or criticize.
You don't read it in the proper context.

Brother The Book of Allah is not for the arabs. The arabic in The Quran is not the same arabic as in the arab world, 2 different levels.

As for how my contradictions were wrong, maybe there were. I can only read and try to understand and use my human reason. Logically many of the premises of the Abrahamic faiths in general has lost a lot of color and substance to me however. I wish for Islam to be true and I embraced it fully so why would God make me a disbeliever? Do you not acknowledge that it is only through His will that I can believe?

At this moment you have a choise, to believe or not to believe. If you choose to believe then inshaAllah you will get His approval.
Just a question, when do you think you will have more chance for His approval, when you rebel against Him or when you surrender to Him?

Salaam,
Bender

Jafar

Are you in any way open to the possibility that perhaps the books of scripture which we humans call holy are not actually from God?

There are no such thing as 'holy book' or 'perfect book'..
Try downloading one of those digital Quran,Bible etc.. it sometimes crashes..

Thus so does the 'printed version'.. as it was written by human hands... at some point in time...
Human software programming is as good as human memory and is as good as human writing..
IT IS PRONE OF ERROR AND MISTAKE...

Having said that... Faithful-Jinn does makes a very good point... there are people who idolize the Quran.. and they think by 'defending' the Quran (in whatever format or version, digital/printed etc..) they will please their deity. And if they don't do anything to 'defend the Quran' it will anger the deity.

This is a cultural legacy from paganism..

Within paganism 'an idol' is a symbol of Deity's presence... that's why they're restless when a young dude the son of an idol maker destroyed their idol. They think such 'blasphemous act' will anger the deities thus the deities shall refuse to help them and/or abide within them.. In order to 'please the deities' and 'earn back their presence' they think they need to murder / burn the 'idol crusher'...

The Quran as material is not God's book, God doesn't write the Quran... it's human who wrote it...
Accept that as a fact..

Now.. the way to approach the Quran (and also Bible, Gospel etc..) is to understand the content and take the things which you think are good and make sense to you.... and apply it to your everyday life...

And God doesn't need any book if He wanted to reveal something to you.. there are millions way for Him to do that..
God's revelation doesn't end with Quran...

God's revelation begin when you were born into this world and it shall end when you die...
You just need to be sensitive enough to understand His signs which are spread all over you.. every day...

Salam / Peace

IAMOP

To clarify one point Mr Jinn, you state that God's will alone is what causes a person to believe or not believe thereby making it a lottery.

That is incorrect even in the quran because guidance & belief follows deeds and not the other way round. If one does good then God guides to the truth and if one does bad, then God seals their hearts. It's not that God picks a number out of a box and says "OK you're disbelieving and that's that". Your deeds determine the purity of your heart/mind and then the purity of your heart/mind determines how much of the truth you can see. You see this demonstrated best in Buddhism because a beginner of the path has to practice compassion/loving kindess, selfless service & meditation to achieve realisation and it comes in stages. Each successive stage removes more of the fog of perception, the fog of desire so that the person can now see through what was previously blinding them.

That's a self-evident truth anyway, have you heard of 'crimes of passion'? When someone is so angry that their anger clouds their perception of the truth, thus they do something they thoroughly regret afterwards. They could not be guided by their reasoning because the impurity of their mind at that state (intense anger) veiled their awareness from the truth. This is a natural phenomenon, God does not work like magic my friend. It's all neurons and electrical impulses doing their thing no magic, no dice.

Faithful-Jinn

Now.. the way to approach the Quran (and also Bible, Gospel etc..) is to understand the content and take the things which you think are good and make sense to you.... and apply it to your everyday life...

And God doesn't need any book if He wanted to reveal something to you.. there are millions way for Him to do that..
God's revelation doesn't end with Quran...

God's revelation begin when you were born into this world and it shall end when you die...
You just need to be sensitive enough to understand His signs which are spread all over you.. every day...

Salam / Peace

Here is the problem brother. The Qur'an doesn't teach that you should take what is good from it and leave the rest. The Qur'an teaches you that it is the direct word of God and you must obey all of it. Where in the Qur'an does it suggest that you can take what is good from it and apply it to your life but the things you don't like you can throw it away?

The other problem is people argue that the Qur'an isn't necessary. That God exists without the Qur'an and all this nice stuff about how it's all about God and you don't need holy books.

Okay if this is true nothing in the Qur'an matters and God should be speaking to all of us directly. What's the point of understanding the Qur'an if I don't need it for salvation?

You say the Qur'an is not necessary to believe in God but the BASIS of the Abrahamic faiths is the Holy Books and the traditions, laws, and doctrines within them! The BASIS of the Islamic faith for 3 billion Muslims on this planet is the Qur'an. The Qur'an is the source Muslims look to to understand God, His attributes, His laws, what pleases Him, what displeases Him, what heaven is like, what hell is like, where humans come from, basically ALL Islamic doctrine is based on the Qur'an.

It doesn't come directly from God but as you said it is a medium. If the medium is not perfect then God is NOT perfect. And I'm not just saying this based on nothing I'm saying this based on the CRITERIA OF THE QUR'AN ITSELF. The book that many people on this forum claim to be perfect, divine, timeless, and universal by its own criteria claims to be a perfect book from a perfect God. You yourself admit there's no such thing as a perfect holy book but yet your very faith in God and how the universe works is based on one of these holy books.

How would you please God without the Qur'an or scripture? How would you pray without Qur'an or scripture? How would you know if you were obeying or disobeying His laws without Qur'an or scripture?

Where do you get your beliefs if not from the Qur'an? I'd really like to know.

justamuslim

I'm being very honest with myself. It would have been very easy for me to believe as you believe and keep blaming myself for why this book doesn't make sense. Of course since I don't share your beliefs I'm unpure and have been influenced by shaitan.

I can see you didn't bother to answer my questions so I guess you don't want to be open minded to my questioning. In your eyes I'm a sinful fool with weak faith. In my eyes you're deluded and seduced by the promises of the words of men.

no where did i say what you allege. where did i say that you are 'sinful fool with weak faith?" by the way, i don't 'blame' myself if something doesn't make sense. i chose to believe that the koran is the word of God free of doubt and contradictions. so if i find contradictions then it means the koran is faulty or i that i am. i chose to believe that the koran is not faulty but i am. and you made the chose that the koran is faulty. you make your choices and i make mine. i have my beliefs and you have yours. if you think the koran is innovation of men and illogical then what you are doing is right - don't believe in it. believe in whatever it is that you want to believe in. i don't have a problem with whatever you believe.

what you are doing now is not discussion. you are now attacking and putting me down by stating that i am not open minded. i am deluded and seduced. so what is your point faithful-jinn and what is it that you are trying to prove? what possibilities or ideas are you trying to discuss?

according to you, i am illogical, deluded, seduced. how is that a discussion of ideas or possibilities? you have obviously come to reject the koran as god's word. you have clearly stated the issues you have with the koran. you have made it clear of what you think of people like me who chose to believe in God's scriptures.

so again what is your point now? why do you expect us to explain to you of what and why we believe in the Koran? i can ask the same question that you ask who do you think you are? that we need to explain to you. what exactly are you hoping to accomplish and expecting in this forum, faithful-jinn?

Faithful-Jinn

To clarify one point Mr Jinn, you state that God's will alone is what causes a person to believe or not believe thereby making it a lottery.

That is incorrect even in the quran because guidance & belief follows deeds and not the other way round. If one does good then God guides to the truth and if one does bad, then God seals their hearts. It's not that God picks a number out of a box and says "OK you're disbelieving and that's that". Your deeds determine the purity of your heart/mind and then the purity of your heart/mind determines how much of the truth you can see.

That's a self-evident truth anyway, have you heard of 'crimes of passion'? When someone is so angry that their anger clouds their perception of the truth, thus they do something they thoroughly regret afterwards. They could not be guided by their reasoning because the impurity of their mind at that state (intense anger) veiled their awareness from the truth. This is a natural phenomenon, God does not work like magic my friend. It's all neurons and electrical impulses doing their thing no magic, no dice.

I agree that there is no magic.

Your statement about deeds and purity is BS though and I'll tell you why. If your purity determined how much truth you can see there would NEVER be converts. Especially converts from atheism or disbelief. How can an atheist or disbeliever who is obviously not pure, find truth in the Qur'an?

What about the prison converts? Many incarcerated Americans end up converting to Islam while in prison. These are gangbangers, drug dealers, thieves, substance abusers, and violent criminals finding Islam.

I agree God does not work like magic which is why when I look at the Qur'an OBJECTIVELY I can clearly see it is not from a perfect God.

Faithful-Jinn

no where did i say what you allege. where did i say that you are 'sinful fool with weak faith?" by the way, i don't 'blame' myself if something doesn't make sense. i chose to believe that the koran is the word of God free of doubt and contradictions. so if i find contradictions then it means the koran is faulty or i that i am. i chose to believe that the koran is not faulty but i am. and you made the chose that the koran is faulty. you make your choices and i make mine. i have my beliefs and you have yours. if you think the koran is innovation of men and illogical then what you are doing is right - don't believe in it. believe in whatever it is that you want to believe in. i don't have a problem with whatever you believe.

what you are doing now is not discussion. you are now attacking and putting me down by stating that i am not open minded. i am deluded and seduced. so what is your point faithful-jinn and what is it that you are trying to prove? what possibilities or ideas are you trying to discuss?

according to you, i am illogical, deluded, seduced. how is that a discussion of ideas or possibilities? you have obviously come to reject the koran as god's word. you have clearly stated the issues you have with the koran. you have made it clear of what you think of people like me who chose to believe in God's scriptures.

so again what is your point now? why do you expect us to explain to you of what and why we believe in the Koran? i can ask the same question that you ask who do you think you are? that we need to explain to you. what exactly are you hoping to accomplish and expecting in this forum, faithful-jinn?

I'm explaining my deconversion and how I came to my conclusions. It's clear that nothing can be gained in a discussion between opposing positions who both think they're correct. Perhaps Bigmo was correct that this is an exercise in futility.

You did allege something about being deceived by shaitan however and the idea that the fault is never with the scripture or the belief system but your own self. So until you can find some new way to translate the meaning of a word, or rationalize an idea, or find a new context to read something, or somehow understand the verse in a different way then the fault is within yourself.

So of course as someone who believed and now no longer believes, I fall into the category of someone who refuses to find fault in themself or hold onto their belief.

What I did find interesting that you said though, is that when you find an issue, a contradiction, or something that at first appears wrong, that you simply hold onto your belief. You cling to your belief above all things.

Even in the face of falsehood I believe many people would cling to their beliefs.

ayman

Okay. Instead of responding to my clueless ignorance with your insulting response why don't you educate us and explain what it actually means?
Or are you satisfied in responding like an arrogant douchebag without spreading the vast amount of knowledge you seem to have over the rest of the Islamic world like the Sunnis and the 19ers (neither of which group I've ever belonged to)?
Not to mention that the meaning of the word submission has very little to do with my argument of whether or not the Qur'an is the word of God or written by men.

Adding laziness to "clueless ignorance" doesn't help )

Had you spent a little effort in using the search function on the forum then you would have found better meanings.

You would have easily found that salam means peace and islam means peacemaking.

Perhaps if you spent a little time studying those very simple words you would have found that the word quran means "intense reading", which is truth that you already acknowledged in your first post.

What I am saying is mundane and fairly simple and you could have easily found it on your own. Now it looks like there is very little chance you might achieve a better understanding than Sunnis, who you claim not to be but strangely and happily believe them on important things. This is because it is a process and asking to be spoonfed without making any effort rarely results in any real progress.

Peace,

Ayman