I renounced my faith in the divinity of the Qur'an today
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I might ask you to apologize to me for the insult of saying I am blind and deaf! I expect fair play and good manners even from Muslims!
I do not allow you to judge my studies of the Quran by what I post!
And, being proficient in several languages, I've read the Quran many, many times, and listened to chanting of it in Arabic, too.If I was not born Arab-speaking, does it mean that god cannot talk to me "directly"?
Besides, what are you trying to prove?
Who are you trying to convince to what?
Does Quran need your defense? Does God?The only thing I do agree with you is that it is a serous matter!
Peace
peaceSalaam,
tempt
Ok sorry if you felt insulted.
Just remember this next time when you talk about Allah, even if you don't believe in it (just for the 0,000...0001% chance that it is from Allah).
621 And who is more wicked than he who invents lies about God, or denies His revelations! The wicked will never succeed.bye,
Bender -
WHAT?!
When did I ever say I use the sunnah or hadith to understand the Qur'an?! I've always been an outright opponent of hadith literature and the idolatry of the Sunnah. Why else do you think I've been a member of this for years? What an insane and inaccurate assumption about me...
Salaam,
You didn?t say it but I was telling you. And you are not the only one, everyone here including myself are still infected. We do this without noticing it. That?s why we see contraditions and don?t understand things.
Let me give you some examples you mentioned
- moon split during Muhammad?s time
- slaying christains and jews
- Seks with slaves
- Beating your wife
- Verses that seems the interest of Muhammed and don?t seem to relevant to believers
Now from where did you got this understandings? I can tell you that it?s not what the Quran says, it's from the hadiths and other sources.
I already gave you in an other thread the next verses but inshaAllah you will understand them now better
5677 It is an honorable Quran.
5678 In a protected Book.
5679 None can grasp it except those purified.
5680 A revelation from the Lord of the worlds.Next, I don't speak Arabic!
me neither.
You're calling me lazy because I wasn't born in an Arabic speaking country?! What an ignorant insult. You're exercising the same air of Arabic superiority that the Sunnis practice.
I didn't say you are lazy, I said IF you are lazy. I myself am very lazy for learning such things.
First off, it makes no sense for me to read a transliteration (which I have) because I don't understand the words. Second, you're telling me that God only wants his revelation for all mankind over all time periods to be understood by 7th century Arabs! Even those who speak Arabic likely don't fully grasp the full meanings of the classical Arabic used in the Qur'an so I guess we should all give up on salvation according to you.
Why I said you can use the transliteration is because then you can compare the contradicting verses, without even knowing the language. It was just an advise.
Believe me my arabic is worse then that of a 3 years old boy. I can only read arabic with great difficulty and only reading without understanding.
Apparently the Creator of the entire universe for some reason or another, either could not or would not create a book that would translate clearly and concisely no matter which language you speak. Only 17% of the 3 billion Muslims on this planet speak Arabic as a native language.
Also I highly doubt that Arabic speakers all understand EVERY single word of Al-Qur'an in the same exact way even though they all speak the language because when they mentally internalize it likely takes a slightly different meaning to all of them.
You are using the typical Sunni arguments for someone who doesn't understand Al-Qur'an in the same exact way they expect.
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You don't understand Arabic so you're not qualified to understand, question, or criticize.
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You don't read it in the proper context.
Brother The Book of Allah is not for the arabs. The arabic in The Quran is not the same arabic as in the arab world, 2 different levels.
As for how my contradictions were wrong, maybe there were. I can only read and try to understand and use my human reason. Logically many of the premises of the Abrahamic faiths in general has lost a lot of color and substance to me however. I wish for Islam to be true and I embraced it fully so why would God make me a disbeliever? Do you not acknowledge that it is only through His will that I can believe?
At this moment you have a choise, to believe or not to believe. If you choose to believe then inshaAllah you will get His approval.
Just a question, when do you think you will have more chance for His approval, when you rebel against Him or when you surrender to Him?Salaam,
Bender -
- Are you in any way open to the possibility that perhaps the books of scripture which we humans call holy are not actually from God?
There are no such thing as 'holy book' or 'perfect book'..
Try downloading one of those digital Quran,Bible etc.. it sometimes crashes..Thus so does the 'printed version'.. as it was written by human hands... at some point in time...
Human software programming is as good as human memory and is as good as human writing..
IT IS PRONE OF ERROR AND MISTAKE...Having said that... Faithful-Jinn does makes a very good point... there are people who idolize the Quran.. and they think by 'defending' the Quran (in whatever format or version, digital/printed etc..) they will please their deity. And if they don't do anything to 'defend the Quran' it will anger the deity.
This is a cultural legacy from paganism..
Within paganism 'an idol' is a symbol of Deity's presence... that's why they're restless when a young dude the son of an idol maker destroyed their idol. They think such 'blasphemous act' will anger the deities thus the deities shall refuse to help them and/or abide within them.. In order to 'please the deities' and 'earn back their presence' they think they need to murder / burn the 'idol crusher'...
The Quran as material is not God's book, God doesn't write the Quran... it's human who wrote it...
Accept that as a fact..Now.. the way to approach the Quran (and also Bible, Gospel etc..) is to understand the content and take the things which you think are good and make sense to you.... and apply it to your everyday life...
And God doesn't need any book if He wanted to reveal something to you.. there are millions way for Him to do that..
God's revelation doesn't end with Quran...God's revelation begin when you were born into this world and it shall end when you die...
You just need to be sensitive enough to understand His signs which are spread all over you.. every day...Salam / Peace
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To clarify one point Mr Jinn, you state that God's will alone is what causes a person to believe or not believe thereby making it a lottery.
That is incorrect even in the quran because guidance & belief follows deeds and not the other way round. If one does good then God guides to the truth and if one does bad, then God seals their hearts. It's not that God picks a number out of a box and says "OK you're disbelieving and that's that". Your deeds determine the purity of your heart/mind and then the purity of your heart/mind determines how much of the truth you can see. You see this demonstrated best in Buddhism because a beginner of the path has to practice compassion/loving kindess, selfless service & meditation to achieve realisation and it comes in stages. Each successive stage removes more of the fog of perception, the fog of desire so that the person can now see through what was previously blinding them.
That's a self-evident truth anyway, have you heard of 'crimes of passion'? When someone is so angry that their anger clouds their perception of the truth, thus they do something they thoroughly regret afterwards. They could not be guided by their reasoning because the impurity of their mind at that state (intense anger) veiled their awareness from the truth. This is a natural phenomenon, God does not work like magic my friend. It's all neurons and electrical impulses doing their thing no magic, no dice.
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Now.. the way to approach the Quran (and also Bible, Gospel etc..) is to understand the content and take the things which you think are good and make sense to you.... and apply it to your everyday life...
And God doesn't need any book if He wanted to reveal something to you.. there are millions way for Him to do that..
God's revelation doesn't end with Quran...God's revelation begin when you were born into this world and it shall end when you die...
You just need to be sensitive enough to understand His signs which are spread all over you.. every day...Salam / Peace
Here is the problem brother. The Qur'an doesn't teach that you should take what is good from it and leave the rest. The Qur'an teaches you that it is the direct word of God and you must obey all of it. Where in the Qur'an does it suggest that you can take what is good from it and apply it to your life but the things you don't like you can throw it away?
The other problem is people argue that the Qur'an isn't necessary. That God exists without the Qur'an and all this nice stuff about how it's all about God and you don't need holy books.
Okay if this is true nothing in the Qur'an matters and God should be speaking to all of us directly. What's the point of understanding the Qur'an if I don't need it for salvation?
You say the Qur'an is not necessary to believe in God but the BASIS of the Abrahamic faiths is the Holy Books and the traditions, laws, and doctrines within them! The BASIS of the Islamic faith for 3 billion Muslims on this planet is the Qur'an. The Qur'an is the source Muslims look to to understand God, His attributes, His laws, what pleases Him, what displeases Him, what heaven is like, what hell is like, where humans come from, basically ALL Islamic doctrine is based on the Qur'an.
It doesn't come directly from God but as you said it is a medium. If the medium is not perfect then God is NOT perfect. And I'm not just saying this based on nothing I'm saying this based on the CRITERIA OF THE QUR'AN ITSELF. The book that many people on this forum claim to be perfect, divine, timeless, and universal by its own criteria claims to be a perfect book from a perfect God. You yourself admit there's no such thing as a perfect holy book but yet your very faith in God and how the universe works is based on one of these holy books.
How would you please God without the Qur'an or scripture? How would you pray without Qur'an or scripture? How would you know if you were obeying or disobeying His laws without Qur'an or scripture?
Where do you get your beliefs if not from the Qur'an? I'd really like to know.
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I'm being very honest with myself. It would have been very easy for me to believe as you believe and keep blaming myself for why this book doesn't make sense. Of course since I don't share your beliefs I'm unpure and have been influenced by shaitan.
I can see you didn't bother to answer my questions so I guess you don't want to be open minded to my questioning. In your eyes I'm a sinful fool with weak faith. In my eyes you're deluded and seduced by the promises of the words of men.
no where did i say what you allege. where did i say that you are 'sinful fool with weak faith?" by the way, i don't 'blame' myself if something doesn't make sense. i chose to believe that the koran is the word of God free of doubt and contradictions. so if i find contradictions then it means the koran is faulty or i that i am. i chose to believe that the koran is not faulty but i am. and you made the chose that the koran is faulty. you make your choices and i make mine. i have my beliefs and you have yours. if you think the koran is innovation of men and illogical then what you are doing is right - don't believe in it. believe in whatever it is that you want to believe in. i don't have a problem with whatever you believe.
what you are doing now is not discussion. you are now attacking and putting me down by stating that i am not open minded. i am deluded and seduced. so what is your point faithful-jinn and what is it that you are trying to prove? what possibilities or ideas are you trying to discuss?
according to you, i am illogical, deluded, seduced. how is that a discussion of ideas or possibilities? you have obviously come to reject the koran as god's word. you have clearly stated the issues you have with the koran. you have made it clear of what you think of people like me who chose to believe in God's scriptures.
so again what is your point now? why do you expect us to explain to you of what and why we believe in the Koran? i can ask the same question that you ask who do you think you are? that we need to explain to you. what exactly are you hoping to accomplish and expecting in this forum, faithful-jinn?
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To clarify one point Mr Jinn, you state that God's will alone is what causes a person to believe or not believe thereby making it a lottery.
That is incorrect even in the quran because guidance & belief follows deeds and not the other way round. If one does good then God guides to the truth and if one does bad, then God seals their hearts. It's not that God picks a number out of a box and says "OK you're disbelieving and that's that". Your deeds determine the purity of your heart/mind and then the purity of your heart/mind determines how much of the truth you can see.
That's a self-evident truth anyway, have you heard of 'crimes of passion'? When someone is so angry that their anger clouds their perception of the truth, thus they do something they thoroughly regret afterwards. They could not be guided by their reasoning because the impurity of their mind at that state (intense anger) veiled their awareness from the truth. This is a natural phenomenon, God does not work like magic my friend. It's all neurons and electrical impulses doing their thing no magic, no dice.
I agree that there is no magic.
Your statement about deeds and purity is BS though and I'll tell you why. If your purity determined how much truth you can see there would NEVER be converts. Especially converts from atheism or disbelief. How can an atheist or disbeliever who is obviously not pure, find truth in the Qur'an?
What about the prison converts? Many incarcerated Americans end up converting to Islam while in prison. These are gangbangers, drug dealers, thieves, substance abusers, and violent criminals finding Islam.
I agree God does not work like magic which is why when I look at the Qur'an OBJECTIVELY I can clearly see it is not from a perfect God.
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no where did i say what you allege. where did i say that you are 'sinful fool with weak faith?" by the way, i don't 'blame' myself if something doesn't make sense. i chose to believe that the koran is the word of God free of doubt and contradictions. so if i find contradictions then it means the koran is faulty or i that i am. i chose to believe that the koran is not faulty but i am. and you made the chose that the koran is faulty. you make your choices and i make mine. i have my beliefs and you have yours. if you think the koran is innovation of men and illogical then what you are doing is right - don't believe in it. believe in whatever it is that you want to believe in. i don't have a problem with whatever you believe.
what you are doing now is not discussion. you are now attacking and putting me down by stating that i am not open minded. i am deluded and seduced. so what is your point faithful-jinn and what is it that you are trying to prove? what possibilities or ideas are you trying to discuss?
according to you, i am illogical, deluded, seduced. how is that a discussion of ideas or possibilities? you have obviously come to reject the koran as god's word. you have clearly stated the issues you have with the koran. you have made it clear of what you think of people like me who chose to believe in God's scriptures.
so again what is your point now? why do you expect us to explain to you of what and why we believe in the Koran? i can ask the same question that you ask who do you think you are? that we need to explain to you. what exactly are you hoping to accomplish and expecting in this forum, faithful-jinn?
I'm explaining my deconversion and how I came to my conclusions. It's clear that nothing can be gained in a discussion between opposing positions who both think they're correct. Perhaps Bigmo was correct that this is an exercise in futility.
You did allege something about being deceived by shaitan however and the idea that the fault is never with the scripture or the belief system but your own self. So until you can find some new way to translate the meaning of a word, or rationalize an idea, or find a new context to read something, or somehow understand the verse in a different way then the fault is within yourself.
So of course as someone who believed and now no longer believes, I fall into the category of someone who refuses to find fault in themself or hold onto their belief.
What I did find interesting that you said though, is that when you find an issue, a contradiction, or something that at first appears wrong, that you simply hold onto your belief. You cling to your belief above all things.
Even in the face of falsehood I believe many people would cling to their beliefs.
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Okay. Instead of responding to my clueless ignorance with your insulting response why don't you educate us and explain what it actually means?
Or are you satisfied in responding like an arrogant douchebag without spreading the vast amount of knowledge you seem to have over the rest of the Islamic world like the Sunnis and the 19ers (neither of which group I've ever belonged to)?
Not to mention that the meaning of the word submission has very little to do with my argument of whether or not the Qur'an is the word of God or written by men.Adding laziness to "clueless ignorance" doesn't help )
Had you spent a little effort in using the search function on the forum then you would have found better meanings.
You would have easily found that salam means peace and islam means peacemaking.
Perhaps if you spent a little time studying those very simple words you would have found that the word quran means "intense reading", which is truth that you already acknowledged in your first post.
What I am saying is mundane and fairly simple and you could have easily found it on your own. Now it looks like there is very little chance you might achieve a better understanding than Sunnis, who you claim not to be but strangely and happily believe them on important things. This is because it is a process and asking to be spoonfed without making any effort rarely results in any real progress.
Peace,
Ayman
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Pardon me brother @Faithful-Jinn, although I admire your posts enormously and value your excellent argumentation, in your very last post you just gave me a hint of what the problem might be here...
Perhaps the problem is in the search of Truth versus having Faith (even blind) )
Maybe people who do not question things to the core are better off in general, believing what they chose.
(Holocaust Jewish survivors should be mentioned... truth didn't help, but faith did)Many a brilliant mind confessed the impossibility of finding the ultimate truth!
(Schopenhauer comes to mind, among many others)There is a brilliant Jewish joke, which says, that when God created the world he asked people to vote whether he should leave in the world naked truth or naked woman, and everybody voted for naked woman to be left in the world! rotfl
That's why naked truth was exiled from the world! ) -
Where in the Qur'an does it suggest that you can take what is good from it and apply it to your life but the things you don't like you can throw it away?
There are.. ) I let you seek it out for yourselves...
The more correct terminology is "The best understanding / meanings of it"..Okay if this is true nothing in the Qur'an matters and God should be speaking to all of us directly. What's the point of understanding the Qur'an if I don't need it for salvation?
Salvation from what????
I smell 'Christianism' influence here...
The objective of Quran is clearly written on the beginning of chapter 2...You say the Qur'an is not necessary to believe in God but the BASIS of the Abrahamic faiths is the Holy Books and the traditions, laws, and doctrines within them!
If that's your hypothesis.. tell me... What's "Abraham's holy book"?????
Tradition? Laws? Doctrines??? I smell Judaism influence here..The BASIS of the Islamic faith for 3 billion Muslims on this planet is the Qur'an. The Qur'an is the source Muslims look to to understand God, His attributes, His laws, what pleases Him, what displeases Him, what heaven is like, what hell is like, where humans come from, basically ALL Islamic doctrine is based on the Qur'an.
islam is not faith/cult/religion, haven't you understood that?
The BASIS of Islamic Cult is the doctrine of Imams, which claimed they derived it from Quran and 'other sources'.. where they fit everything to suits their taste and needs...
In similar case of The BASIS of Jesus Cult is the doctrine of Priests/Pastors/Reverend which claimed they derived it from Gospel and 'other sources'.. where they fit everything to suits their taste and needs...It doesn't come directly from God but as you said it is a medium. If the medium is not perfect then God is NOT perfect.
I don't follow your logic here...
Water flow from reservoir to your toilet through a pipe.. if the pipe has leakage then the reservoir has leakage too?
It doesn't make any sense...And I'm not just saying this based on nothing I'm saying this based on the CRITERIA OF THE QUR'AN ITSELF. The book that many people on this forum claim to be perfect, divine, timeless, and universal by its own criteria claims to be a perfect book from a perfect God.
Where does the Quran say that 'it's timeless'????
It's definitely a total mistake, as timeless means applicable in any times...
And how does a thing be applicable when it was not being written yet????And where does it say that everything inside is universal and applicable in any places?
Test How does one perform fasting in an area where there are no daylight?You yourself admit there's no such thing as a perfect holy book but yet your very faith in God and how the universe works is based on one of these holy books.
You're mistaken I don't based my 'perception of things' on merely "one of these holy books"..
Where did I ever said that?How would you please God without the Qur'an or scripture?
You don't know???
How would you pray without Qur'an or scripture?
I'm more confused now.. Why would you need any scripture to pray???????
How would you know if you were obeying or disobeying His laws without Qur'an or scripture?
God's law a.k.a Nature law is unbreakable by anyone or anything... thus if it's truly "His Law" nobody has any other option but to abide by it..
Where do you get your beliefs if not from the Qur'an? I'd really like to know.
Contemplation... and always asking question..
Ask and you shall receive...Salam / Peace
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First seeming contradiction is the creation of the universe one. Several verses say the universe was made in 6 days or 6 periods or 6 eras or what have you.
But verse 419-12 adds the days up to 8. It took 2 days to create earth, 4 days to fill it up, and another 2 days to create the heavens.
Highlights above are from me.
I start with your first "Qur'aanic contradiction."
According to the Qur?an, the creation of the Universe, the Heavens, and the Earth, did similarly, start out tiny and simple?SIX ?days? (754, 103, 117, 2559, 324, 5038, 574) before the BIG bang (2130). During these six ?days?, this ?cell/embryo?, ?theHeavensandtheEarth?, was within an ?enclosure? as a collective sum, just like a baby growing in the womb before birth. During the BIG bang/the NEW BIRTH (2130), the next stages/the next EIGHT ?days? (419-12), of creation and evolution of the UNIVERSE began.
We are now in the latter parts of the FOURTEENTH ?day?, of the creation of the Universe. The Qur?an informs us about the coming of the Fifteenth/the LAST ?day?.
The above observation is a part of the link below.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600440.msg247806#msg247806Peace,
Khalil -
There are.. I let you seek it out for yourselves...
The more correct terminology is "The best understanding / meanings of it"..
Salvation from what????
I smell 'Christianism' influence here...
The objective of Quran is clearly written on the beginning of chapter 2...If that's your hypothesis.. tell me... What's "Abraham's holy book"?????
Tradition? Laws? Doctrines??? I smell Judaism influence here..
islam is not faith/cult/religion, haven't you understood that?The BASIS of Islamic Cult is the doctrine of Imams, which claimed they derived it from Quran and 'other sources'.. where they fit everything to suits their taste and needs...
In similar case of The BASIS of Jesus Cult is the doctrine of Priests/Pastors/Reverend which claimed they derived it from Gospel and 'other sources'.. where they fit everything to suits their taste and needs...I don't follow your logic here...
Water flow from reservoir to your toilet through a pipe.. if the pipe has leakage then the reservoir has leakage too?
It doesn't make any sense...Where does the Quran say that 'it's timeless'????
It's definitely a total mistake, as timeless means applicable in any times...
And how does a thing be applicable when it was not being written yet????And where does it say that everything inside is universal and applicable in any places?
Test How does one perform fasting in an area where there are no daylight?You're mistaken I don't based my 'perception of things' on merely "one of these holy books"..
Where did I ever said that?
You don't know???
I'm more confused now.. Why would you need any scripture to pray???????God's law a.k.a Nature law is unbreakable by anyone or anything... thus if it's truly "His Law" nobody has any other option but to abide by it..
Contemplation... and always asking question..
Ask and you shall receive...Salam / Peace
Do you believe in heaven and hell Jafar? Do you believe that we will be raised when we die and judged for our life on earth? Do you believe that God communicates with mankind and sends prophets? If you do believe in heaven and hell, then what is the criteria for which we will be judged?
The Qur'an claims to send Muhammad as a warner to all mankind. He's the last warner.
I don't understand why you people keep throwing terms like Christianism and Sunnism at me when I'm neither a Christian or Sunni.
I'd like to understand where you're coming from though. Abraham spoke directly to God apparently or received some type of revelation so he likely wouldn't need a holy book. I don't know about you guys but God never spoke to me directly so I referred to the Qur'an for my spiritual guidance.
Now as for God's law. The most intriguing part of your post I thought.
Do you believe that the laws in the scripture are part of God's law? You claim God's law cannot be broken. Obviously if God's law says do not eat swine and I eat a swine, then I've just broken God's law.
Are you suggesting that laws in the Qur'an are not required to be followed? I don't get it.
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Do you believe in heaven and hell Jafar? Do you believe that we will be raised when we die and judged for our life on earth? Do you believe that God communicates with mankind and sends prophets? If you do believe in heaven and hell, then what is the criteria for which we will be judged?
- By the same criteria we judged others..
- By the way we treat others...
- By the result of our actions...
God communicate with mankind in million ways, and prophet is just one of them...
The Qur'an claims to send Muhammad as a warner to all mankind. He's the last warner.
Show me the verse.... please... where does it say that he's the last warner...
I don't understand why you people keep throwing terms like Christianism and Sunnism at me when I'm neither a Christian or Sunni.
By the way you 'see things'/your mindset... you seems to be following Christians + Judaism sectarian mindset.
You might not be a member of their cult, but your thought processes are deeply influenced by it..I'd like to understand where you're coming from though. Abraham spoke directly to God apparently or received some type of revelation so he likely wouldn't need a holy book.
Abraham didn't spoke to any God prior to his 'destroy-the-idols-which-my-dad-invented-and-put-the-sword-on-the-biggest-idol-to-prove-my-point' act..
And how did he found out that those idols are BS??
By observation... and critical thinking...As a son of an idol maker he saw how those idols are being invented by his own dad...
His family thus himself directly benefited from the $$$ his dad make by selling those idols to the (dumb) people.But his conscience told him otherwise... 'this is not right'... 'we're earning money by bullshitting people'..
Thus he said "Come on dad, let's come clean.. this is not right.. let's tell the truth to those people"..
His dad answered "Shut up son! Remember that this business has earn us a lot of $$$, where did you think I got the money to buy you those bicycle, playstation and laptop? Now help me with this.. and I will give you that motorcycle which you always wanted... do you have any idea on new idols for my spring collection?"
He said "Dad, if you don't tell them.. then I will! The people need to be enlightened from their stupidity!".I don't know about you guys but God never spoke to me directly so I referred to the Qur'an for my spiritual guidance.
Perhaps He did.. but you just couldn't recognize it??? have you thought about that??
Now as for God's law. The most intriguing part of your post I thought.
Do you believe that the laws in the scripture are part of God's law? You claim God's law cannot be broken. Obviously if God's law says do not eat swine and I eat a swine, then I've just broken God's law.Nope you just didn't do one of His recommendation...
If it's truly "God's law" then you shall not be able to break or change it...Example of God's law
- You'll be dead and no one live forever..
- When you f&&ed other people you'll get f*&ed.
- Those who do good deed do it their own soul and those who do bad deed do it to their own soul. (you'll reap what you sow)
- The earth rotate around the sun and not the other way around..
- Gravity is pulling inward and not pushing outward...
Again "God's law in the scripture" is another characteristic of Judaism... and that's how they named their 'holy book'.. Torah.. which means "Law"...
Are you suggesting that laws in the Qur'an are not required to be followed? I don't get it.
Which laws? Tell me... if it's truly God's law then you shall willingly or unwillingly bounded to it...
By the way you didn't answered many of my questions.. would you care to answer those as well?
Salam / Peace
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- By the same criteria we judged others..
- By the way we treat others...
- By the result of our actions...
God communicate with mankind in million ways, and prophet is just one of them...
Show me the verse.... please... where does it say that he's the last warner...
By the way you 'see things'/your mindset... you seems to be following Christians + Judaism sectarian mindset.
You might not be a member of their cult, but your thought processes are deeply influenced by it..Abraham didn't spoke to any God prior to his 'destroy-the-idols-which-my-dad-invented-and-put-the-sword-on-the-biggest-idol-to-prove-my-point' act..
And how did he found out that those idols are BS??
By observation... and critical thinking...As a son of an idol maker he saw how those idols are being invented by his own dad...
His family thus himself directly benefited from the $$$ his dad make by selling those idols to the (dumb) people.But his conscience told him otherwise... 'this is not right'... 'we're earning money by bullshitting people'..
Thus he said "Come on dad, let's come clean.. this is not right.. let's tell the truth to those people"..
His dad answered "Shut up son! Remember that this business has earn us a lot of $$$, where did you think I got the money to buy you those bicycle, playstation and laptop? Now help me with this.. and I will give you that motorcycle which you always wanted... do you have any idea on new idols for my spring collection?"
He said "Dad, if you don't tell them.. then I will! The people need to be enlightened from their stupidity!".Perhaps He did.. but you just couldn't recognize it??? have you thought about that??
Nope you just didn't do one of His recommendation...
If it's truly "God's law" then you shall not be able to break or change it...Example of God's law
- You'll be dead and no one live forever..
- When you f&&ed other people you'll get f*&ed.
- Those who do good deed do it their own soul and those who do bad deed do it to their own soul. (you'll reap what you sow)
- The earth rotate around the sun and not the other way around..
- Gravity is pulling inward and not pushing outward...
Again "God's law in the scripture" is another characteristic of Judaism... and that's how they named their 'holy book'.. Torah.. which means "Law"...
Which laws? Tell me... if it's truly God's law then you shall willingly or unwillingly bounded to it...By the way you didn't answered many of my questions.. would you care to answer those as well?
Salam / Peace
You said we're judged by how we treat others and what not. What about belief? What if someone is good but doesn't believe in God? According to the Qur'an if you don't believe you go to hell. Surely you're not suggesting that all believers are good people and all polytheists and atheists are bad people?
It says he's the seal of the prophets. You know what I mean.
So did GOD tell Abraham or did he use his own logical mind?! There's a huge difference. I can figure out morality on my own and be a good person and still go to hell according to the Qur'an because I didn't believe in Allah or perform his rituals. This makes little sense to me.
Perhaps God did speak to me. At many times in my life I thought he did. But now I'm using my rational mind and looking at things objectively and thinking "Maybe I just had an emotional reaction to a circumstance in my life that made me THINK God was speaking to me".
The whole law vs. recommendation thing seems a little silly. Who judges us when we die? You say we'll be judged how judge others, how we treat others, and our actions. Who is to say what we did was good, or bad, or not. Different people have different morals. Morality can be subjective. Without God who is to say what I did was right or wrong? Maybe I thought I was sincerely doing good.
Which goes back to my question. How do we know how we are pleasing God without Qur'an or scripture? Is God e-mailing His instructions directly to your head? It would seem that you live life based on your own morals and then attribute those morals to God the way you're speaking.
This is a sincere question. How do you know the attributes of the God you're praying to without any type of scripture or revelation. Say the Bible, Qur'an, never existed and you've never heard any of the history of the prophets. How do you know what your God likes and doesn't like or what He expects from you or anything about Him. How would you know there's an afterlife and you will be judged?
That's what I mean when I say God isn't speaking to us directly. Without scripture I would have NO reason to believe in heaven, hell, angels, jinn, or judgment day.
If I was born today and had never heard of any religion or any belief system why would I ever believe these things?
I'm not sure what questions you have that you want me to answer. Maybe I wasn't concise and precise enough in some of my claims of a timeless revelation but I know the Qur'an says Muhammad is a warner for all mankind. Which would seem that all mankind suggests something timeless.
Your point that a holy book isn't necessary for faith though is true as Adam, Abraham, Noah and all before Moses didn't even need any book.
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Brother, I find it very sad that you are leaving Islam. '( I am sorry that it didn't work out for you. I hope that God will continue to guide you and maybe bring you back to the truth of Islam. I also hope that things work out for you in your life and that you do find something that works for you.
No point in pushing my beliefs on you or being mean to you if you do not return to Islam. It's your choice, and I respect your honesty about it. Although, you and I see things differently.
Peace!
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So did GOD tell Abraham or did he use his own logical mind?!
It's kind of hard to differentiate given every event, up to the smallest event such as hair falling down from your head.. happened according to His will???
But in any case it doesn't matter isn't it?There's a huge difference. I can figure out morality on my own and be a good person and still go to hell according to the Qur'an because I didn't believe in Allah or perform his rituals. This makes little sense to me.
Of course it's nonsense.. and where did the Quran said that??
Perhaps God did speak to me. At many times in my life I thought he did. But now I'm using my rational mind and looking at things objectively and thinking "Maybe I just had an emotional reaction to a circumstance in my life that made me THINK God was speaking to me".
He might 'talk' to you by not exchanging audio signal...
The whole law vs. recommendation thing seems a little silly. Who judges us when we die? You say we'll be judged how judge others, how we treat others, and our actions. Who is to say what we did was good, or bad, or not.
The "King of Judgement Day" of course..
Different people have different morals. Morality can be subjective. Without God who is to say what I did was right or wrong? Maybe I thought I was sincerely doing good.
Norms.. can be subjective.. is it polite to leave breast open for female? Is it appropriate to not wearing anything except covering your penis with some kind of wooden enclosure? That's relative...
But empathy and morality is not...
Slavery.. is it good or not?
Just change the viewpoint.. what if you are a slave how would you like to be treated?
Murder.. is it good or not?
Just change the viewpoint.. what if you are the victim of murder?Which goes back to my question. How do we know how we are pleasing God without Qur'an or scripture? Is God e-mailing His instructions directly to your head? It would seem that you live life based on your own morals and then attribute those morals to God the way you're speaking.
He might use email.. among others
And he did talk to my conscience.. IF I listen to it closely..This is a sincere question. How do you know the attributes of the God you're praying to without any type of scripture or revelation. Say the Bible, Qur'an, never existed and you've never heard any of the history of the prophets. How do you know what your God likes and doesn't like or what He expects from you or anything about Him. How would you know there's an afterlife and you will be judged?
I always thought perhaps it's better to keep the afterlife and judgement day as a 'secret'..
Thus good people shall do good for the sake of doing good.. and not for the sake of having some 'credit' point for Heaven..If you're truly good people you shall do good deed for the sake of doing good.. even when you shall have no reward of doing it..
That's what I mean when I say God isn't speaking to us directly. Without scripture I would have NO reason to believe in heaven, hell, angels, jinn, or judgment day.
And now with the scripture you believe in them?
And does that makes you a better person?
Do you do good deed because of it?
When.. as it turns out there are no heaven and hell or judgement day.. will you do good deed?Your point that a holy book isn't necessary for faith though is true as Adam, Abraham, Noah and all before Moses didn't even need any book.
It's true... as human being we all have conscience...
Some people choose to listen to it, and some others doesn't... it's all their choice...Salam / Peace
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It's kind of hard to differentiate given every event, up to the smallest event such as hair falling down from your head.. happened according to His will???
But in any case it doesn't matter isn't it?Of course it's nonsense.. and where did the Quran said that??
He might 'talk' to you by not exchanging audio signal...
The "King of Judgement Day" of course..
Norms.. can be subjective.. is it polite to leave breast open for female? Is it appropriate to not wearing anything except covering your penis with some kind of wooden enclosure? That's relative...
But empathy and morality is not...
Slavery.. is it good or not?
Just change the viewpoint.. what if you are a slave how would you like to be treated?
Murder.. is it good or not?
Just change the viewpoint.. what if you are the victim of murder?He might use email.. among others
And he did talk to my conscience.. IF I listen to it closely..I always thought perhaps it's better to keep the afterlife and judgement day as a 'secret'..
Thus good people shall do good for the sake of doing good.. and not for the sake of having some 'credit' point for Heaven..If you're truly good people you shall do good deed for the sake of doing good.. even when you shall have no reward of doing it..
And now with the scripture you believe in them?
And does that makes you a better person?
Do you do good deed because of it?
When.. as it turns out there are no heaven and hell or judgement day.. will you do good deed?It's true... as human being we all have conscience...
Some people choose to listen to it, and some others doesn't... it's all their choice...Salam / Peace
?And fear the Fire which is prepared for the disbelievers.? (Quran 3131)
It says right there that the Fire is prepared for the disbelievers. It says this almost a hundred times in the Qur'an so I don't know what you're getting at. If you're saying that the rules in the Qur'an are just suggestions, that you don't need to follow them to go to heaven, and that disbelievers don't go to hell it sounds like you're making your own belief system up.
I don't mean to disrespect but you're starting to say some crazy stuff. It seems you don't care about what the Qur'an says and have your own ideas about God.
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You said we're judged by how we treat others and what not. What about belief? What if someone is good but doesn't believe in God? According to the Qur'an if you don't believe you go to hell. Surely you're not suggesting that all believers are good people and all polytheists and atheists are bad people?
Dear Faithfull Jinn,
I can see you have very good views on many things and i agree with them, though I disagree on you on some and most crucial points.
By the way I'm new here, it is no disrespect to you, but I just want to convey my opinion on this discussion.If you read Quran carefully, you will find that our SOLE mission (human and jinn) to live in this very short life span in the world is to redeem ourselves! Being nice, kind, loving etc is NOT the priority mission.
This because we have made gross sin in the past (in our 1st life in heaven) by put doubt on Allah and agree with Satan view on certain degree, that is blasphemy to God in highest degree, if your child reject you as their only parent, you are mad aren't you? (Doesn't mean I'm saying we are children of God, just allegory)
That is the reason Allah banish us from heaven, and due to His Merciful attribute, we are given second chance to think it over again, so Allah created this earth as a testing ground to separate humans, who will repent and who still have no clue of who the real God is. Allah fully knows who will repent and who wont! The purpose of earth living is just to serve a prove, a kind of video recording for everything we are doing here, so in hereafter in the judment day, this record will be presented before each individual and no human can deny their wrong doing! Contrary to most belief that Allah have no clue what human will do here in earth.
If you think of it carefully of above, you will find that to be nice, kind person, good people is NOT first criteria in the judgement day! Though being a believer we shall be nice, kind person, but this is accepted only AFTER we believe in God alone.
If you failed to renounce your flaw belief (still by putting doubt in Allah, or follow other baseless law, or worst reject Him totally) than all the good works you did in this world is nullified, it doesn't matter if you are Gandhi or mother Teressa or the nicest person ever live, you shall be judged by your SOLE mission first whether you are success or fail.
Sorry to make this post longer, but I think below is important to make things more clearer, so below is what was happened in order
- Billion years ago we were living in heaven with all creatures, enjoy all the goodness and happiness
- One day satan made claim that they can help God manage the creation in some degree (satan was one of most powerful creature I belief and made them arrogant)
- All creatures debating this claim, some small percentage of creature agree to this satan's view (jinn), and some are interested but no decision (human), the majority rejected this claim.
- God was about to banish this rebels (human and jinn) to hell (hell is not created yet), but God knows that not all of them are truly disbelievers, some of them can change their belief and make repentance if given second chance!
- That is the SOLE reason why God create earth, it is a TESTING ground to filter believer and disbeliever, God knows the believer will be a small number only! They can saved themselves and avoid hell
- God started to sent down human, first from Adam (after the incident of forbidden tree - which of course Allah's plan), then all our past memories erased, so we actually start on clean slate! God know where to put us, in rich family, poor family etc, God knows how to measure.
- God of course doesn't expect all these human to be believers, God know most wont! God sent the scriptures only to save those small number of people, God doesn't intend to save all mankind because if He wants He can just simply pardon us all. Instead, Allah also said in Qur'an that Allah can just annihilated us all before, but His mercy encompass his wrath. Ok you maybe can start seeing why Allah is the most Merciful here.
- Here we are, in this forum still debating, just like what we did in heaven before, Allah said in Qur'an that human is the most argumentative creatures, indeed I find this is very true.
If you read 1st ayah of Albaqarah (the very first beginning of Quran after Alfatihah), you will find that Qur'an is 'the beacon for the muttaqin', Allah didn't say that Qur'an is the beacon for all humanity! Think of it, do you know WHY?
So if you understand the scenario above, you will understand that we should end-up in Hell right now this minute already, but Allah give us second chance, but Allah knows that only a small fraction us us will be believer again and redeemed, so he give His blessing by sending the beacon which is Qur'an to those believer. All others have hardened heart, and they have no clue why they are in here and continuing to deny God, and they deserve hell for their belief, no matter they are nice, kind or loving etc... really no matter!
Perhaps now you will understand why most Jews, Christian, Muslim and others end-up in hell, it is NOT Allah put them there, but they themselves INSIST to be put in hell. It doesn't matter how nice they are, deep in their heart they are just plain rebel.
But being a believer, to be nice, kind and loving is a must, why? Because it is automatic... it can't be faked! When people realized how small they are, how helpless they are, how God control everything, they will be humble, they will not be arrogant, and automatically this type of people will be a loving kind nicest person you will ever met.
So this is my opinion, and sorry for my bad English, perhaps this can shed some light to you.
Sorry I dont include the Quran ayah related to above yet, as I'm in hurry. I will edit my post later and include the related ayat from Qur'an.
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Greetings and Peace, all group
AlQuraan is just the medium. It has been send to show us the path towards our TheCreator.
Unfortunately, people take Nabis, Rasools and AlQuraan as idols besides God. I agree on that. But all of them are just to make us aware of Allah, and let us know what is God and why we have been created, etc.
mmKhan
This! Did the Prophets before the last Prophet (peace upon them all) have AQ? AQ is A means, not necessarily THE means. It has been stated before that the unexamined life is not worth living.
@Faithful-Jinn Faith in AQ is not mandatory. Monotheism is the key, and you are still a monotheist, right? This is the "bigger picture." Has AQ helped you in monotheism at all, or enhanced your life? If so, then it has for now served its purpose for you. If you reconsider your position at another time, AQ will still be there. There is no Islamic truth and there is no Christian truth or any other XXX truth--there is only what is true and what is not. Keep seeking and keep striving.
May the Lord bless you and keep you.
May the Lord make his face to shine upon you, and be gracious to you.
May the Lord lift up his countenance upon you, and give you peace.peace
~Abdul-Hadi