I renounced my faith in the divinity of the Qur'an today

[Jafar]

So did GOD tell Abraham or did he use his own logical mind?!

It's kind of hard to differentiate given every event, up to the smallest event such as hair falling down from your head.. happened according to His will???
But in any case it doesn't matter isn't it?

There's a huge difference. I can figure out morality on my own and be a good person and still go to hell according to the Qur'an because I didn't believe in Allah or perform his rituals. This makes little sense to me.

Of course it's nonsense.. and where did the Quran said that??

Perhaps God did speak to me. At many times in my life I thought he did. But now I'm using my rational mind and looking at things objectively and thinking "Maybe I just had an emotional reaction to a circumstance in my life that made me THINK God was speaking to me".

He might 'talk' to you by not exchanging audio signal...

The whole law vs. recommendation thing seems a little silly. Who judges us when we die? You say we'll be judged how judge others, how we treat others, and our actions. Who is to say what we did was good, or bad, or not.

The "King of Judgement Day" of course..

Different people have different morals. Morality can be subjective. Without God who is to say what I did was right or wrong? Maybe I thought I was sincerely doing good.

Norms.. can be subjective.. is it polite to leave breast open for female? Is it appropriate to not wearing anything except covering your penis with some kind of wooden enclosure? That's relative...

But empathy and morality is not...

Slavery.. is it good or not?
Just change the viewpoint.. what if you are a slave how would you like to be treated?
Murder.. is it good or not?
Just change the viewpoint.. what if you are the victim of murder?

Which goes back to my question. How do we know how we are pleasing God without Qur'an or scripture? Is God e-mailing His instructions directly to your head? It would seem that you live life based on your own morals and then attribute those morals to God the way you're speaking.

He might use email.. among others
And he did talk to my conscience.. IF I listen to it closely..

This is a sincere question. How do you know the attributes of the God you're praying to without any type of scripture or revelation. Say the Bible, Qur'an, never existed and you've never heard any of the history of the prophets. How do you know what your God likes and doesn't like or what He expects from you or anything about Him. How would you know there's an afterlife and you will be judged?

I always thought perhaps it's better to keep the afterlife and judgement day as a 'secret'..
Thus good people shall do good for the sake of doing good.. and not for the sake of having some 'credit' point for Heaven..

If you're truly good people you shall do good deed for the sake of doing good.. even when you shall have no reward of doing it..

That's what I mean when I say God isn't speaking to us directly. Without scripture I would have NO reason to believe in heaven, hell, angels, jinn, or judgment day.

And now with the scripture you believe in them?
And does that makes you a better person?
Do you do good deed because of it?
When.. as it turns out there are no heaven and hell or judgement day.. will you do good deed?

Your point that a holy book isn't necessary for faith though is true as Adam, Abraham, Noah and all before Moses didn't even need any book.

It's true... as human being we all have conscience...
Some people choose to listen to it, and some others doesn't... it's all their choice...

Salam / Peace

[Faithful-Jinn]

It's kind of hard to differentiate given every event, up to the smallest event such as hair falling down from your head.. happened according to His will???
But in any case it doesn't matter isn't it?

Of course it's nonsense.. and where did the Quran said that??

He might 'talk' to you by not exchanging audio signal...

The "King of Judgement Day" of course..

Norms.. can be subjective.. is it polite to leave breast open for female? Is it appropriate to not wearing anything except covering your penis with some kind of wooden enclosure? That's relative...

But empathy and morality is not...

Slavery.. is it good or not?
Just change the viewpoint.. what if you are a slave how would you like to be treated?
Murder.. is it good or not?
Just change the viewpoint.. what if you are the victim of murder?

He might use email.. among others
And he did talk to my conscience.. IF I listen to it closely..

I always thought perhaps it's better to keep the afterlife and judgement day as a 'secret'..
Thus good people shall do good for the sake of doing good.. and not for the sake of having some 'credit' point for Heaven..

If you're truly good people you shall do good deed for the sake of doing good.. even when you shall have no reward of doing it..

And now with the scripture you believe in them?
And does that makes you a better person?
Do you do good deed because of it?
When.. as it turns out there are no heaven and hell or judgement day.. will you do good deed?

It's true... as human being we all have conscience...
Some people choose to listen to it, and some others doesn't... it's all their choice...

Salam / Peace

?And fear the Fire which is prepared for the disbelievers.? (Quran 3131)

It says right there that the Fire is prepared for the disbelievers. It says this almost a hundred times in the Qur'an so I don't know what you're getting at. If you're saying that the rules in the Qur'an are just suggestions, that you don't need to follow them to go to heaven, and that disbelievers don't go to hell it sounds like you're making your own belief system up.

I don't mean to disrespect but you're starting to say some crazy stuff. It seems you don't care about what the Qur'an says and have your own ideas about God.

[donnyw]

You said we're judged by how we treat others and what not. What about belief? What if someone is good but doesn't believe in God? According to the Qur'an if you don't believe you go to hell. Surely you're not suggesting that all believers are good people and all polytheists and atheists are bad people?

Dear Faithfull Jinn,

I can see you have very good views on many things and i agree with them, though I disagree on you on some and most crucial points.
By the way I'm new here, it is no disrespect to you, but I just want to convey my opinion on this discussion.

If you read Quran carefully, you will find that our SOLE mission (human and jinn) to live in this very short life span in the world is to redeem ourselves! Being nice, kind, loving etc is NOT the priority mission.

This because we have made gross sin in the past (in our 1st life in heaven) by put doubt on Allah and agree with Satan view on certain degree, that is blasphemy to God in highest degree, if your child reject you as their only parent, you are mad aren't you? (Doesn't mean I'm saying we are children of God, just allegory)

That is the reason Allah banish us from heaven, and due to His Merciful attribute, we are given second chance to think it over again, so Allah created this earth as a testing ground to separate humans, who will repent and who still have no clue of who the real God is. Allah fully knows who will repent and who wont! The purpose of earth living is just to serve a prove, a kind of video recording for everything we are doing here, so in hereafter in the judment day, this record will be presented before each individual and no human can deny their wrong doing! Contrary to most belief that Allah have no clue what human will do here in earth.

If you think of it carefully of above, you will find that to be nice, kind person, good people is NOT first criteria in the judgement day! Though being a believer we shall be nice, kind person, but this is accepted only AFTER we believe in God alone.

If you failed to renounce your flaw belief (still by putting doubt in Allah, or follow other baseless law, or worst reject Him totally) than all the good works you did in this world is nullified, it doesn't matter if you are Gandhi or mother Teressa or the nicest person ever live, you shall be judged by your SOLE mission first whether you are success or fail.

Sorry to make this post longer, but I think below is important to make things more clearer, so below is what was happened in order

• Billion years ago we were living in heaven with all creatures, enjoy all the goodness and happiness
• One day satan made claim that they can help God manage the creation in some degree (satan was one of most powerful creature I belief and made them arrogant)
• All creatures debating this claim, some small percentage of creature agree to this satan's view (jinn), and some are interested but no decision (human), the majority rejected this claim.
• God was about to banish this rebels (human and jinn) to hell (hell is not created yet), but God knows that not all of them are truly disbelievers, some of them can change their belief and make repentance if given second chance!
• That is the SOLE reason why God create earth, it is a TESTING ground to filter believer and disbeliever, God knows the believer will be a small number only! They can saved themselves and avoid hell
• God started to sent down human, first from Adam (after the incident of forbidden tree - which of course Allah's plan), then all our past memories erased, so we actually start on clean slate! God know where to put us, in rich family, poor family etc, God knows how to measure.
• God of course doesn't expect all these human to be believers, God know most wont! God sent the scriptures only to save those small number of people, God doesn't intend to save all mankind because if He wants He can just simply pardon us all. Instead, Allah also said in Qur'an that Allah can just annihilated us all before, but His mercy encompass his wrath. Ok you maybe can start seeing why Allah is the most Merciful here.
• Here we are, in this forum still debating, just like what we did in heaven before, Allah said in Qur'an that human is the most argumentative creatures, indeed I find this is very true.

If you read 1st ayah of Albaqarah (the very first beginning of Quran after Alfatihah), you will find that Qur'an is 'the beacon for the muttaqin', Allah didn't say that Qur'an is the beacon for all humanity! Think of it, do you know WHY?

So if you understand the scenario above, you will understand that we should end-up in Hell right now this minute already, but Allah give us second chance, but Allah knows that only a small fraction us us will be believer again and redeemed, so he give His blessing by sending the beacon which is Qur'an to those believer. All others have hardened heart, and they have no clue why they are in here and continuing to deny God, and they deserve hell for their belief, no matter they are nice, kind or loving etc... really no matter!

Perhaps now you will understand why most Jews, Christian, Muslim and others end-up in hell, it is NOT Allah put them there, but they themselves INSIST to be put in hell. It doesn't matter how nice they are, deep in their heart they are just plain rebel.

But being a believer, to be nice, kind and loving is a must, why? Because it is automatic... it can't be faked! When people realized how small they are, how helpless they are, how God control everything, they will be humble, they will not be arrogant, and automatically this type of people will be a loving kind nicest person you will ever met.

So this is my opinion, and sorry for my bad English, perhaps this can shed some light to you.

Sorry I dont include the Quran ayah related to above yet, as I'm in hurry. I will edit my post later and include the related ayat from Qur'an.

[Abdul-Hadi]

Greetings and Peace, all group

AlQuraan is just the medium. It has been send to show us the path towards our TheCreator.

Unfortunately, people take Nabis, Rasools and AlQuraan as idols besides God. I agree on that. But all of them are just to make us aware of Allah, and let us know what is God and why we have been created, etc.

mmKhan

This! Did the Prophets before the last Prophet (peace upon them all) have AQ? AQ is A means, not necessarily THE means. It has been stated before that the unexamined life is not worth living.

@Faithful-Jinn Faith in AQ is not mandatory. Monotheism is the key, and you are still a monotheist, right? This is the "bigger picture." Has AQ helped you in monotheism at all, or enhanced your life? If so, then it has for now served its purpose for you. If you reconsider your position at another time, AQ will still be there. There is no Islamic truth and there is no Christian truth or any other XXX truth--there is only what is true and what is not. Keep seeking and keep striving.

May the Lord bless you and keep you.
May the Lord make his face to shine upon you, and be gracious to you.
May the Lord lift up his countenance upon you, and give you peace.

peace

~Abdul-Hadi

[Faithful-Jinn]

Dear Faithfull Jinn,

I can see you have very good views on many things and i agree with them, though I disagree on you on some and most crucial points.
By the way I'm new here, it is no disrespect to you, but I just want to convey my opinion on this discussion.

If you read Quran carefully, you will find that our SOLE mission (human and jinn) to live in this very short life span in the world is to redeem ourselves! Being nice, kind, loving etc is NOT the priority mission.

This because we have made gross sin in the past (in our 1st life in heaven) by put doubt on Allah and agree with Satan view on certain degree, that is blasphemy to God in highest degree, if your child reject you as their only parent, you are mad aren't you? (Doesn't mean I'm saying we are children of God, just allegory)

That is the reason Allah banish us from heaven, and due to His Merciful attribute, we are given second chance to think it over again, so Allah created this earth as a testing ground to separate humans, who will repent and who still have no clue of who the real God is.

If you think of it carefully of above, you will find that to be nice, kind person, good people is NOT first criteria in the judgement day! Though being a believer we shall be nice, kind person, but this is accepted only AFTER we believe in God alone.

If you failed to renounce your flaw belief (still by putting doubt in Allah, or follow other baseless law, or worst reject Him totally) than all the good works you did in this world is nullified, it doesn't matter if you are Gandhi or mother Teressa or the nicest person ever live, you shall be judged by your SOLE mission first whether you are success or fail.

Sorry to make this post longer, but I think below is important to make things more clearer, so below is what was happened in order

• Billion years ago we were living in heaven with all creatures, enjoy all the goodness and happiness
• One day satan made claim that they can help God manage the creation in some degree (satan was one of most powerful creature I belief and made them arrogant)
• All creatures debating this claim, some small percentage of creature agree to this satan's view (jinn), and some are interested but no decision (human), the majority rejected this claim.
• God was about to banish this rebels (human and jinn) to hell (hell is not created yet), but God knows that not all of them are truly disbelievers, some of them can change their belief and make repentance if given second chance!
• That is the SOLE reason why God create earth, it is a TESTING ground to filter believer and disbeliever, God knows the believer will be a small number only! They can saved themselves and avoid hell
• God started to sent down human, first from Adam (after the incident of forbidden tree - which of course Allah's plan), then all our past memories erased, so we actually start on clean slate!
• God of course doesn't expect all these human to be believers, God know most wont! God send the scriptures only to save those small number of people, God doesn't intend to save all mankind because if He wants He can just simply pardon us all. Instead, Allah also said in Qur'an that Allah can just annihilated us all before, but His mercy encompass his wrath. Ok you maybe can start seeing why Allah is the most Merciful here.
• Here we are, in this forum still debating, just like what we did in heaven before, Allah said in Qur'an that human is the most argumentative creatures, indeed I find this is very true.

If you read 1st ayah of Albaqarah (the very first beginning of Quran after Alfatihah), you will find that Qur'an is 'the beacon for the muttaqin', Allah didn't say that Qur'an is the beacon for all humanity! Think of it, do you know WHY?

So if you understand the scenario above, you will understand that we should end-up in Hell right now this minute already, but Allah give us second chance, but Allah knows that only a small fraction us us will be believer again and redeemed, so he give His blessing by sending the beacon which is Qur'an to those believer. All others have hardened heart, and they have no clue why they are in here and continuing to deny God, and they deserve hell for their belief, no matter they are nice, kind or loving etc... really no matter!

Perhaps now you will understand why most Jews, Christian, Muslim and others end-up in hell, it is NOT Allah put them there, but they themselves INSIST to be put in hell. It doesn't matter how nice they are, deep in their heart they are just plain rebel.

But being a believer, to be nice, kind and loving is a must, why? Because it is automatic... it can't be faked! When people realized how small they are, how helpless they are, how God control everything, they will be humble, they will not be arrogant, and automatically this type of people will be a loving kind nicest person you will ever met.

So this is my opinion, and sorry for my bad English, perhaps this can shed some light to you.

Sorry I dont include the Quran ayah related to above yet, as I'm in hurry. I will edit my post later and include the related ayat from Qur'an.

And where's the evidence for that whole story that we were all in heaven and God sent us to earth as humans?

In addition I have to add that there's plenty of people who believe in God who are arrogant douchebags and plenty of people who don't believe that are nice and humble.

Seems kind of stupid to say only by believing in God can you be a good person. Being a good person, like you said, isn't what gets you into heaven it's being a believer.

The entire premise that God would allow his messages and revelations to be so corrupted by men resulting in multiple Abrahamic faiths and claims that each religion claims to be from God and the other ones are correct.

I mean some people here are acting like it doesn't even matter what you are but if that's the case what do you think is the truth? Surely if the Qur'an is CORRECT then that means Jews and Christians are WRONG. Why would God send down revelation KNOWING it would result in all this headache? Is that really omnibenevolence?

I mean the crux of my whole statement is whether or not the Qur'an is the direct word of God. If it's not I have no reason to believe any of this stuff.

[Faithful-Jinn]

Greetings and Peace, all group

This! Did the Prophets before the last Prophet (peace upon them all) have AQ? AQ is A means, not necessarily THE means. It has been stated before that the unexamined life is not worth living.

@Faithful-Jinn Faith in AQ is not mandatory. Monotheism is the key, and you are still a monotheist, right? This is the "bigger picture." Has AQ helped you in monotheism at all, or enhanced your life? If so, then it has for now served its purpose for you. If you reconsider your position at another time, AQ will still be there. There is no Islamic truth and there is no Christian truth or any other XXX truth--there is only what is true and what is not. Keep seeking and keep striving.

May the Lord bless you and keep you.
May the Lord make his face to shine upon you, and be gracious to you.
May the Lord lift up his countenance upon you, and give you peace.

peace

~Abdul-Hadi

Correct. There is only truth. I've had much positivity since converting but can I TRULY attribute it to God?

Also if there is only truth, someone has to be correct. Since you're on a Qur'an alone forum I assume you believe the Qur'an is truth? Do you believe the Qur'an is 100% of the truth or only a portion?

[donnyw]

And where's the evidence for that whole story that we were all in heaven and God sent us to earth as humans?

Faithful Jinn, thank you for your reply.

Here is the evidence from Qur'an

Few billion years ago Great Feud arose in heavenly society when satan made his claim

• 3869 I had no knowledge of the Highest Chiefs when they disputed;

So that is when all creatures in heaven were in dispute, we human already existed at that time, and we made blasphemy by not rejecting this satan claim. Here below verses the proof that we have been in heaven before

God took our witness before He sent us down to earth.

7172 And when your Lord brought forth from the children of Adam, from their backs, their descendants, and made them bear witness against their own souls Am I not your Lord? They said Yes! we bear witness. Lest you should say on the day of resurrection Surely we were heedless of this.

Clearly from above, before our soul was put inside human body, we bore witness that God is our Lord, and this is why in innermost heart human have instinct about God, but they insist by denying it. Also clearly from above verse, we can't deny that we were misleaded in the day of resurrection, because we had bore witness that Allah is our Lord alone!

Then Allah create death 672, then created human body 1526 and jinn body 1527
(note that human was created on few stages, first from water (we now know from science lifes originated from sea remember), then mud, then sperm, then clot (embryo), people who dont understand this thought Allah has discrepancy, but they have no idea that Allah describe clearly in Quran that human body built in stages.

• Then Allah made scenario (to prove who the real satan is!) by asking satan to prostate to human 234, 711, 1761, 1850, 20116, Allah knows satan wont do it, thus proving to all entire creatures in heaven that satan was indeed arrogant. This scenario witnessed by all creatures, so other creatures wont complain when Allah banish satan to hell, they are indeed arrogant! Allah has the case, it is not out of prejudice, but proven case.

You know what happen next, we are sending down to earth, to be redeemed back to heaven, but only for those who knows their wrong doing EXACTLY and make repentance. This is NOT about the contest of being the nicest person on earth (sorry my hyperbole), though being righteous and nice is the NEXT thing you should do after you realized why you are here.

In addition I have to add that there's plenty of people who believe in God who are arrogant douchebags and plenty of people who don't believe that are nice and humble.

Seems kind of stupid to say only by believing in God can you be a good person. Being a good person, like you said, isn't what gets you into heaven it's being a believer.

• First only God can judge and knows innermost heart.

• Second, being nice is not guaranteed a true believer, being a believer is not guarantee a heaven as well!, so being nice and believer is not sufficient. Proof below

• 12-106 "And most of them (believer) do not believe in Allah without associating others (with Him)".
  So are you wonder why believers who are douchebag, or EVEN nice, kindest, but they (majority) will end-up in hell at the end, clearly the criteria is not about being a nicest person, but first criteria is not to associate others (with Him)! I do hope brother.... this will help you to find the real answer...think it over in calm mind....this might save your life.

Even the nicest, loving, kind person in earth that you might see by your plain eyes, if he reject God in his deepest heart, it is the greatest blasphemy in Allah eyes, he is the most arrogant, certainly he is not the nicest one. Certainly.....

• Four, only God know innermost thought, you can't judge people by appearance! A scumbag today might be angel tomorrow, and vice versa. For example, I myself about 10 years back and before indeed was an arrogant man, I admitted I was scumbag to highest order, really, those who know me in the past might surprise to see me now, I'm not nicest person now, but I know I'm changed for all these years, so if you met me in the past, did you know that I will be changed? You wont know the answer.... D

Seems kind of stupid to say only by believing in God can you be a good person. Being a good person, like you said, isn't what gets you into heaven it's being a believer.

It is not stupid actually, indeed contrary to what you think, if you read Quran carefully, Allah told us, the purpose of Salat, Zakat and other ritual is to change a man for better of him, to be a good person. So if you find a believer who is scumbag, means he is not yet reaching the point... but he indeed has a good base. In meantime if he continue imprving himslef he will be good man.
Being a real believer will certainly makes a person a good man. This is undeniable truth as Allah told us in Quran, and it is actually one of reason why Quran being sent down, as a source of knowledge how to attain righteousness!

Clearly rituals (salat, zakat etc) are not for Allah, but to improve ourselves.

[Faithful-Jinn]

So before we were born God made our immortal soul testify to His existence... Okay I remember that concept from the Qur'an.

Seems ridiculous though. God punishes me because I can't remember what happened before I was born? Surely God knows that I can't ever remember being in heaven or having a conversation with Him.

The idea seems absurd to me now to be quite honest. Before the idea used to resonate with me but now it seems simply absurd. God is going to punish us for not remembering something that we couldn't possibly remember, and then when we die he tells us that before we were born we testified so now we must burn?

I guess I'm becoming an apostate because the idea of the Abrahamic God seems sillier every day I think about it.

[good_logic]

Peace Faithful-Jinn.

Sorry I withheld for a bit to let you have your conversations with others.

You have too many questions. I have given you a link to read/browse/reflect on before. It deals with all these queries of yours Here is the link again

http//www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/website-pages/what-do-i-do-next/

I hope you take some time to reflect with me ,it will take you a bit of time. Have you got some more patience left?

I sincerely hope you find what you are looking for.
Peace.

[donnyw]

Seems ridiculous though. God punishes me because I can't remember what happened before I was born? Surely God knows that I can't ever remember being in heaven or having a conversation with Him.

The idea seems absurd to me now to be quite honest. Before the idea used to resonate with me but now it seems simply absurd. God is going to punish us for not remembering something that we couldn't possibly remember, and then when we die he tells us that before we were born we testified so now we must burn?

That is the whole idea!

The idea is to start a clean slate, it is fair for everybody and the result will be determined entirely by what you do in this earth and not affected even in slightest atom by your past life experiences! So it is fair race no matter who you are in the past, you might have high ranking in heaven before, but here in earth you might wont.

This mean the test in earth will produce highest quality result (outcome) for declaring who the real individual is, so either he is real disbeliever or real believer, I emphasize the term 'real' because this is indeed will be opened in the day of judgement that Allah judge by the true outcome, not by appearances that we human see/feel in this earth, everything is recorded so it is very fair and detailed far beyond what we can comprehend.

Qur'an told that some people think they are believer but they are NOT! They only realized that in the judgement day. So this gives us the clue that our thinking has some flaws, we tend to judge according to our limited capacity, something of likes and dislikes. What we think is right is not necessarily true.

So that is why Quran being sent down, to give us chance to find that clue and answer of this life, depending on our mind only is not enough, furthermore satan has power to influence us, injecting his beliefe until end of our life.

So the answer to your last question

God is going to punish us for not remembering something that we couldn't possibly remember, and then when we die he tells us that before we were born we testified so now we must burn?

Exactly! That is WHY Quran being sent down for us to gain knowledge and remember!! Remember what was our past life, remember what is life is all about. If NO Quran we will NEVER know this, am I right?

Now you know already from Quran the answer to your question, now you know we bore witness before, you know what is the test in the earth, now you know why Quran is for the mustaqin (real believer), because majority of people simply rejetc Quran without fully understanding it. So they miss this CRUCIAL information!

They are the one insist putting themselves in Hell, not God.

[Abdul-Hadi]

Greetings and Peace, all group

Correct. There is only truth. I've had much positivity since converting but can I TRULY attribute it to God?

Also if there is only truth, someone has to be correct. Since you're on a Qur'an alone forum I assume you believe the Qur'an is truth? Do you believe the Qur'an is 100% of the truth or only a portion?

The first answer I won't attempt to answer. Sidestepping the question for a moment, at least there were benefits for you--whatever the cause.

There is no monopoly on truth, not in this life.

3918 The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom GOD has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.

Religions are like adjectives. For myself, I believe AQ to be 100% true--ALLAH knows best. This is not to say that "other" monotheists are somehow wrong or other paths to monotheism without merit. There are not other monotheists, only monotheists. AQ is a message, a tool. To ALLAH is the goal.

You are using the resources available to you and your best understanding. To those with the negative comments

494 O you who believe, if you go forth in the cause of GOD, you shall investigate carefully. And do not say to those who greet you with peace "You are not a believer!" You are seeking the vanity of this world; but with GOD are many riches. That is how you were before, but GOD graced you, so investigate carefully. GOD is expert over what you do.

I wish you well wishes, and success in your search for truth in this life.

May ALLAH see fit to Guide all seekers.

peace

~Abdul-Hadi

[Faithful-Jinn]

So is GOD the key or is QURAN the key?

I think some of the things the Quran says is bulls*** like condoning slavery and allowing sex with female slaves.

But a lot of the spiritual aspects speak to me deeply and I'm not sure if I can believe that we don't have souls or there isn't some kind of God.

I just don't know what to do right now.

On the one hand a lot of things about Islam resonate deeply with me. On the other hand a lot of it feels like bullshit too.

There can never be a way to truly know who is right or wrong in this world.

[Jafar]

?And fear the Fire which is prepared for the disbelievers.? (Quran 3131)

The word there is "Kafiryn" the grammar of "KFR".. meaning "Those who covers / hide".
The imams translate those as "Those who dare to challenge their authority / do not accept what they say". (Unbeliever to what the Imam said)..
Thus it will be aligned with their political agenda..

By citing my example above among the example of "Those who try to cover and hide error/lies/the truth" is the priests / the idol maker. The idol maker in my story above knew very well the idols are big BS.. given he created them himself.. For young abe, it's much safer for him to 'play along' as bullshitting those dumb folks give $$$ to his family thus to him as well.. but he took another path... the difficult path.... and he paid dearly for it...

Citing the Gospel, it was (again) the priest who are the kafiryn..
Mr J this time around took the difficult path.. he expose their lies and hypocrisy.. and he paid dearly for it..

I don't mean to disrespect but you're starting to say some crazy stuff. It seems you don't care about what the Qur'an says and have your own ideas about God.

Perhaps now you start to realize 'who is Crazy' in this case?

Cult/Sect/Religion is a total nutcase!!

So is GOD the key or is QURAN the key?

God is the key..

I think some of the things the Quran says is bulls*** like condoning slavery and allowing sex with female slaves.

It's a big BS.. don't do that.. it's evil..
The imams which translate the verse to things which suits their desire.. and sometime their boss desire who are usually political figure / warlord with lots of $$$ and they have many sex slaves from the conquest of neighboring region... Thus they can afford to pay a troop of priests/imams/clerics errgghh.. I mean... "to make huge sum of donation in the way of Allah" and the priest/imam/clerics shall say whatever things that they want in order to payback the generosity.. And any priest/imam/cleric who refuse to do so shall have have his head cut-off...

Salam / Peace

[donnyw]

So is GOD the key or is QURAN the key?

I think some of the things the Quran says is bulls*** like condoning slavery and allowing sex with female slaves.

But a lot of the spiritual aspects speak to me deeply and I'm not sure if I can believe that we don't have souls or there isn't some kind of God.

I just don't know what to do right now.

On the one hand a lot of things about Islam resonate deeply with me. On the other hand a lot of it feels like bullshit too.

There can never be a way to truly know who is right or wrong in this world.

Dear brother,

God is the key, but how do you know God whereabout? How do you meet him asking Him what to do? No you wont be able to do that, God is unlike His creation, we can meet Him or see Him physically, remember when David (if i'm not mistaken) wants to see God physically? Mountains was crushed even before God show Himself, he fell unconscious.

So God knows that human wants His words, human need proof, human need guidance, so that is Quran all about.

Now your question about slavery.

Do you know that slavery is practised and considered normal even until 19-20th century? Remember how Americans brought slaves from Africa? You were talking about Quran who sent down 1400 years ago, where slavery should be normal, much normal than 19-20th century.

God doesn't intend to prohibit slaves outright that time few centuries ago just like that, people will protest that because it is common at that time, even the people consider slaves is ok for sexual pleasure too... at that time remember that.! God knows slavery will cease to exist at 20th century, here we are... BUT Qur'an in many verses God said to free slaves!! So this us clue that God doesn't like slavery!

How you can say Allah permitted slavery? If you read Quran the answer is clear.

Indeed human who made slavery exist, and God told human to free slaves in Quran, that is clear indication.

[Bigmo]

Gentlemen, your petty little personal opinions are quite irrelevant and boring.

The issue here is simply that some of us came to believe that Quran is NOT direct from god, nor the word of god, nor the message for humanity nor for all times.

We came here to learn and find someone to teach us otherwise, or show us evidence that we made wrong conclusions perhaps.

Please debate in a spirit of fair play and with good manners which I expect even from Muslims.

Thank you

Ur not interested in knowing otherwise thats my poiint. Already the thread is now 11 pages. Thats a wild goose chase if I ever seen one. Its going to go in circles. I knew it from the start.

[donnyw]

Brother Faithfull Jinn, I was about to edit my post and insert more explanation to support my opinion, but the time has expired to edit, so here I post again the one I already edited, discard the previous post. Thanks!

So is GOD the key or is QURAN the key?

Dear Faithful Jinn,

InsyaAllah I have the answer for you, this is a bit long but hopefully you can get something from it.

God is the key, but how do you find God and God's whereabout? How do you meet him directly to ask Him what to do in this life? No you wont be able to do that, God is unlike His creation, we can't meet Him or see Him physically, remember when David (if i'm not mistaken) wants to see God physically? Mountains was crushed even before God show Himself, he fell unconscious.

The existence of God is so powerful that even earth itself cannot withstand, this is information was told in Quran. So we have to accept that we can only see God in hereafter only.

Remember, there is verse saying that all heavens and earth (all 7 layers of universes) all in God's right hand, when you know how enermous this universe we know, and what science able to know/observe so far only 1st layer, you can't even imagine how big is 2nd layer, and how big is 3rd, 4rd, 5th, 6th, and last 7th universe is. Your mind just cant comprehend!

And now those 7 universes are in God's right hand, not in both hands you mind, there is a big different on that, but in one hand only, now you now Who you are dealing with! Allah is so big even beyond our comprehension. We realize now how powerful is God and how tiny we are.

Many of us demanding God to show proof or miracle otherwise we dont believe in scripture or anything that God sent. We dont realize that even the scripture is actually is a toned-down version of God's knowledge designed in such way that can be comprehended by human weak eyes and mind only.
God is able to provide much more sophisticated scripture if he wants just to show how powerful He is, but then most human then wont understand, so no point to do that, but most human just dont know it about.

God knows and control every atoms in this universe, it is not difficult for him to create a most impresive book for human and makes them all convert to believers, but if God intend to convert all human He just said 'be it' and done! It is not difficult for Him.

Human think God should pamper them all the way, it is not the fact of life. We are here because we are tested, the winner (very small minority) are the one who uphold what God commanded (of course Quran), and majority will end-up in Hell fro the gross sin they have did in the past and FAIL to think and repent in this SECOND chance!

So dont blame God if most people destined to Hell, they have been PARDONED before but they repeat the same mistake. They are the one insist on going to hell.

Back to Quran, some people think that Quran should be understood by their straight logic, so if not 'logical' they discard it.
Do you remember back in few centuries ago when all people think the earth was flat? Even the people in prophet era think the same way, WHY they didn't know that earth is round despite that the Quran clearly gives a hint on that?

WHY only this recent years people understand the verse that related to Big Bang?

Sure because human LOGICAL thinking is limited by his own knowledge and what era he lives, so it is really a flaw to just believe our own logic, this is a fact you can't deny! We might find what is true today might be false tomorrow!

So we are sometime hopeless when we realized that and do not know what to do, I understand what you thinking now, I have been there before. Until I realized that the answer is just there lying in front of our eyes.

As God said only the real believer will be able to see the proof and guidance in it. if God said it then it should be true! So Not all believers will be able to understand, even the believers in the highest level must not understand all 100%, God knows that of course, so the idea is not to be the most intelligent creature ever, but be smart enough to figure what is this life is about, and what to follow and do, simple. But not so simple for most people.

That is not a blind faith by the way, in fact it is the opposite, intelligent in religion can be only attained when using reason, so this is not about discarding logic mind you, in fact using it, find the proof as the proof is everywhere. With the advance of science we know now that many verses in Quran is true, this is the intelligent I'm talking about, but sadly people do not even look around them, they have limited view and when they dont understand Quran they blame it that it doesn't fit logic.

You might ask, WHY many intelligent people fail to understand Quran? I have the answer;

Do you remember the reason why satan banished from heaven and destined to hell? They dare to object God's command. WHY? Satan was one of most powerful creature in heaven, yet he failed, WHY?

Yes because satan has arrogance! they dont want to do what Gold told them, because their arrogance (Ego) prevent them to.

This is a lesson for us, the real cause people do not understand Quran is because the human tendency which is Arrogance (Ego) just like Satan, in fact Quran command us to remove our ego, so this gives us the answer.

So in my opinion, we must have to really questioned ourselves, are we really sincere with God?

I have provided you the story above, in summary we can't depend on (flaw) logic alone, and shall avoid arrogance, the only cure is sincere at heart, and that is EXACTLY God said in Quran, only the sincere will understand Quran, if God said that will you not believe?

We are responsible to help yourselves. If we fail to learn anything from Quran, we are the sole cause of our failure because our own ignorance and arrogant, not God.

That is the key of this life.

Now your question about slavery.

I think some of the things the Quran says is bulls*** like condoning slavery and allowing sex with female slaves.

But a lot of the spiritual aspects speak to me deeply and I'm not sure if I can believe that we don't have souls or there isn't some kind of God.

Do you know that slavery is practised and considered normal even until 19-20th century? Remember how Americans brought slaves from Africa? You were talking about Quran who sent down 1400 years ago, where slavery should much normal than 19-20th century.

God doesn't intend to prohibit slaves outright that time (few centuries ago) just like that, people will not accept, God knows that. People is so sticked to norm in the era they live, even the people at that time consider slaves is ok for sexual pleasure too!! This is not what God condone, BUT it is the FACT of that time!

Remember again that world was flat according to people in the past, when God said that earth is like egg, nobody even notice or agree! God indeed prohibit slavery, but people do not notice, only this recent age that we know slavery is not good, only this 21th century we know the term of HUMAN'S RIGHT!

So does God condone slavery? Remember God in Qur'an told us in many verses to free slaves!! This is the clue I'm talking above, God doesn't like slavery. But only us, the people in this recent century only UNDERSTOOD this. Not even people in early 20th century understood this, let alone people in 1400 years ago!

I hope the above shed some light and help you to learn something.

[savage_carrot]

Ur not interested in knowing otherwise thats my poiint. Already the thread is now 11 pages. Thats a wild goose chase if I ever seen one. Its going to go in circles. I knew it from the start.

Let them have their own experience Bigmo, they'll see what you mean )

[good_logic]

Peace savage-carrot and all those who are taking part.

Actually this is not a "wild goose chase". This is bringing up a lot of useful points. Particularly these two

• Arrogance and Greatness of GOD.

Many are too arrogant to accept the "Qoran" fully. They only choose and pick ( accept it partially!)

Many do not value GOD as HE should be valued

4529 This is our record, it utters the truth about you. We have been recording everything you did.? ( GOD s CCTV at its best?)

463 Surely those who say? Our Lord is GOD? then lead a righteous life, ( and are not arrogant to repent and submit!) will have no fear nor will they grieve.?

4615 Were We too burdened by the first creation? Is this why they doubt the Resurrection??

5036 Many a generation before them ( GOD is addressing this 21st Century generation!) who were more powerful, We annihilated. They searched the land ( This generation have searched the land ,sea and sky?) did they find an escape??

( Can they escape from GOD and prevent themselves from being judged?)

5037 This should be a lesson for everyone who possesses a mind, or is able to hear and witness!?

The most important priority is upholding the authority of GOD Alone. Total and sincere submission. You cannot fool GOD.

6216 ? And put your trust in the Almighty, the most Merciful.?

( Total loyalty to GOD ALONE?)

26;225 Do you not see that their loyalty shifts according to the situation. (They are in!)?

26226 ? And that they say what they do not do.?

( They say GOD is Great? They say God is Powerful, Eternal, etc., etc?.? Yet act as if HE does not exist?)

292 Do the people think that they will be left to say ?We believe? Without being put to the test??

293 We have tested those before them, for GOD must distinguish those who are truthful (Totally loyal to HIM ALONE) and HE must expose the liars.?

294 ? Do those who commit sins ( Or have other motives) think that they can ever fool Us? Wrong is their judgement.?

( Do whatever you want, He sees what you do?)

3029 ? The transgressors have followed their own opinions ( and the opinions of their idols) without knowledge? No one can ever help them ( against GOD)?

3030 ? Therefore you shall devote yourself to the religion of strict Monotheism. ( total submission and loyalty to GOD ALONE) Such is the natural instinct placed into the people by GOD. Such creation of GOD will never change ( The kingdom of GOD will have no rebels?) This is the perfect religion, but most people do not know.?

3031 ? You shall submit to HIM,reverence HIM, Observe your prayer/(commitment) ( connect to HIM ,ask HIM for help), and whatever you do, do not ever fall into idol worship.?
This ia the main point.
Peace.

[Jafar]

Many are too arrogant to accept the "Qoran" fully. They only choose and pick ( accept it partially!)

Of course and that's the way it should be...
If the "Quran" said "Enslave others!" then F&*k it.. don't enslave others..

Upon the battle of conscience vs "something which people considered as holy" I always sided with my conscience..
My conscience might not be perfect, but it's the best thing that I got..

Another summary from this discussion are

• There are people who idolize the Quran
• There are people who think that Quran need to be 'defended'.. and by doing so it will please their deity.. and by pleasing their deity they're expecting a reward (in heaven or on this world) from their deity.
• Paganism culture is still alive and well among us..

Salam / Peace

[justamuslim]

what i find interesting is that what lead faithful-jinn to reject the koran lead me towards it. since a kid, i believed in some entity God. but questioned who is God, who created God, why do we need God, why do I need to worship/submit/bow down to God. what makes God so great. is he really omnipotent. so on and on. my biggest problem was religion. so many people have died in the name of religion. didn't God know this would happen. why send all these messengers/prophets? creating different communities. why not speak directly and say ok folks listen up... why all these scriptures - three of them? why asking us to think, ponder, reflect, whatever? why create angels, satan, humans, earth? God did create all things - good and evil. if i was born into a remote tribal society in africa where people ran around naked and worshiped the boogyman and that's all i knew, would i be destined to hell? so does God predetermine ok this one i am going to create and destine to hell and that one i will create and destine to heaven. this one i will give this hardship watching him suffer making him to cry out to me for help and that one will blow his brains out. what kind of sick God is that? this is all some sort of sick game? i could go on and on.....

not like i hadn't thought about things that faithful-jinn thinks. i can even bet i have questioned things and thought about things that even faithful-jinn hasn't. so he can say and think whatever about people like me. i know atheist who fancy themselves as being enlightened looking down at me as a 'blind' follower. whatever.

for me, koran is essential in my understanding of life, self, others, the world that we live in. it is my source of guidance and a healing. it is my manual. it answers my questions. and when i read about beating wives, having sex with slaves, wearing burqa, i didn't come to the same conclusion as faithful-jinn that God is a liar and the Koran is crap. instead, it was a crappy translation done by basically hadith followers.

faithful-jinn and others like him can call me illogical, insane, mind boggling to believe in the koran. they are entitled to their opinions. to each his own.

i still don't get his point though. if he rejected the koran, ok fine but what is his purpose now? what does he hope to accomplish or expecting? faithful-jinn is not going to convince me to reject the koran. there might be those here who will join him in rejecting. there are those who are on the fence post not sure. and then you have those who are firm in their beliefs. know that from reading the koran.