I renounced my faith in the divinity of the Qur'an today
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No you don't have to be a muslim but your position is that Quran is not true. You cannot make the assumption that the Koran is true when your position is that it is not. By the way, I'll just ignore your comment about my maturity level.
Yes I can. What you're saying is absolutely ridiculous. What you're saying is that people of different beliefs SHOULD NEVER discuss or debate theology with each because side A doesn't believe something from side B is true. I have to question your maturity level when you say something so nonsensical.
....but wait a minute. your position is that the koran is not from God. but now you are saying that it is a fact of history that the Quran was revealed? what are you saying now that Koran was revealed (from God) is a historical fact? hmmm......
More childishness.
you are right about that. so you have this koran with you that you don't believe is from God. Surely, you have thought about then who wrote it, when and why? first of all what made you believe in the first place that it was from God?
I don't know. The difference between me and you is I claim not to know and you claim to know it is from God.
What made me believe in the first place is the spiritual truths I saw from the Qur'an in my own life. I thought it was from God because I thought it was all true and that I was experiencing God in my life.
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I believe the answer is Yes. Decades ago I have seen people who live in remote jungle in a part of my country, which up to now still exist (though they are modernized now). They were not even touched by civilization, still wearing animal skin, leaves or some sort of that. And these people actually believe in God!
I also read one of Hamblin book. He is not a Muslim, nor he ever learnt Quran or anything, but he found by his own experience that there is Universal Mind (God) and there is another entity inside us who always against goodness (satan), and to get rid of this he do some practice like meditation to remember God in early morning (when wake up), in the middle of the day, and at noon, at night. Just like Salat.
He also emphasize the importance of charity or what we know as Zakat, and he also believe that we solely depend on God, just like what God told us as Muslim. And up to his death I believe he never read Quran. All his suggestion in his book are nearly identical with Quran teaching, all he knew by his experiences only.I believe sincerity matter, instinctively man should now that there is God and knows that satan exist, eventually sincere people will know that there are rituals (Salat, Zakat) etc without even learning from scriptures.
So many people even without scripture choose to believe, while some people who given scripture in front of them choose to disbelieve.
God said their god is not God, but their Ego. So dont say you believe in God if you reject his guidance, your god must be your Ego.
Instinctively people should know about God, satan, and rituals like salat and zakat? As in a child who grows up in the jungle without any human interaction should know these things without ever being told?
I seriously doubt that.
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Instinctively people should know about God, satan, and rituals like salat and zakat? As in a child who grows up in the jungle without any human interaction should know these things without ever being told?
I seriously doubt that.
Yeah it is strange but there is evidence, you can read Thomas Hamblin book 'Dynamic Thought', he found that there is a Universal Mind (God) the omnipresence, omnipotence and the source of all goodness that control everything.
He also found that we need to have special time every day to meditate and remembering, he said around 6 and 9 a.m. and 9 and 1130 p.m. (like Subuh and Dzuhur prayer?), also special time at night. How the hell he find that, he didn't even knew Quran.
He also found that someone else along us (satan) which need to get rid of by solely on positive though and constant remembering on God (similar like zikr), and he think charity is necessary to attain a better character (like zakat).
You will be amaze how the close similarity between his finding and Quran practice/ritual told by God, and he got all that by experiences only!
I know you wont believe it... but I just mention it, maybe you can learn something.
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Yeah it is strange but there is evidence, you can read Thomas Hamblin book 'Dynamic Thought', he found that there is a Universal Mind (God) the omnipresence, omnipotence and the source of all goodness that control everything.
He also found that we need to have special time every day to meditate and remembering, he said around 6 and 9 a.m. and 9 and 1130 p.m. (like Subuh and Dzuhur prayer?), also special time at night. How the hell he find that, he didn't even knew Quran.
He also found that someone else along us (satan) which need to get rid of by solely on positive though and constant remembering on God (similar like zikr), and he think charity is necessary to attain a better character (like zakat).
You will be amaze how the close similarity between his finding and Quran practice/ritual told by God, and he got all that by experiences only!
I know you wont believe it... but I just mention it, maybe you can learn something.
Nice for him, there are many others who also discovered similar things and started cults.
And there are also others (perhaps with some psychological issues) who discovered that there is god inside them and satan outside them everywhere in the world...
Bit the issue here is not about feeling or sensing god subjectively, but whether god reveled himself OBJECTIVELY thru the Scripture, and produced the Quran as a message for all mankind and for all times!
Cam we stick to the theme, please?
Do you guys thing that it is just a matter of personal choice and faith to believe that Quran is from god, or there is some other way we might know that it is from god?
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Nice for him, there are many others who also discovered similar things and started cults.
And there are also others (perhaps with some psychological issues) who discovered that there is god inside them and satan outside them everywhere in the world...
Bit the issue here is not about feeling or sensing god subjectively, but whether god reveled himself OBJECTIVELY thru the Scripture, and produced the Quran as a message for all mankind and for all times!
Cam we stick to the theme, please?
Do you guys thing that it is just a matter of personal choice and faith to believe that Quran is from god, or there is some other way we might know that it is from god?
Is that the theme? In either case, if we take 4153...we can recognise God's signs objectively, the quran being one of them. The quran being a message to mankind (1452) and thus universal insofar as humanity goes. Not sure what objectively thru the scripture implies.
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We have inspired (awaynā you, as we inspired Noah and the prophets after him. And we inspired Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, the Patriarchs, Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon. And we gave David the Psalms.
Say, "Whose testimony is the greatest?" Say, "GOD's. He is the witness between me and you that this Quran has been inspired (waiya) to me, to preach it to you and whomever it reaches. Indeed, you bear witness that there are other gods* beside GOD." Say, "I do not testify as you do; there is only one god, and I disown your idolatry."
Then we inspired (awaynā you (Muhammad) to follow the religion of Abraham, the monotheist; he never was an idol worshiper.
This is the Rashad Khalifa translation, he uses the word Inspired, many other translations use inspired and some also use revealed.
http//www.islamawakened.com/quran/4/163/default.htmI don't know Arabic that well, so i can't translate the word, but in English there is quite a big difference between Inspired and revealed, the revealed word of God would be Gods literal word, whereas the inspired word of God would be Gods word through a prophets way of speaking and perspective. So there is a big difference, I'm curious to know which is an accurate translation.
If it is inspired, then it would surely explain what seems to be scientific errors, as it would be from Muhammads perspective.
Just food for thought. -
More childishness.
I don't know. The difference between me and you is I claim not to know and you claim to know it is from God.
so when you cannot defend your statements/positions then you resort to name calling and put downs. typical.
no faithful-jinn, i don't claim to know as you claim. read my previous posts. none of us KNOW except the arrogant. I BELIEVE in God and his scriptures taking the Koran as my source of guidance BELIEVING it is the word of God.
again, what exactly is your point here? of course, you won't address the questions being asked. instead you go on an attack and you have people like yourself joining in. i think bigmo was right, just a waste of time.
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We have inspired (awaynā you, as we inspired Noah and the prophets after him. And we inspired Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, the Patriarchs, Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon. And we gave David the Psalms.
Say, "Whose testimony is the greatest?" Say, "GOD's. He is the witness between me and you that this Quran has been inspired (waiya) to me, to preach it to you and whomever it reaches. Indeed, you bear witness that there are other gods* beside GOD." Say, "I do not testify as you do; there is only one god, and I disown your idolatry."
Then we inspired (awaynā you (Muhammad) to follow the religion of Abraham, the monotheist; he never was an idol worshiper.
This is the Rashad Khalifa translation, he uses the word Inspired, many other translations use inspired and some also use revealed.
http//www.islamawakened.com/quran/4/163/default.htmI don't know Arabic that well, so i can't translate the word, but in English there is quite a big difference between Inspired and revealed, the revealed word of God would be Gods literal word, whereas the inspired word of God would be Gods word through a prophets way of speaking and perspective. So there is a big difference, I'm curious to know which is an accurate translation.
If it is inspired, then it would surely explain what seems to be scientific errors, as it would be from Muhammads perspective.
Just food for thought.If we take 4251 and bring in 6943 (which has a word denoting a staged/progressive revelation if you will)...then it appears to be a literal word by word. If inspired in the english sense, you'd have people waxing lyrical which might include errors and apparently God is being particularly detail conscious here. 5233 for example, if you're inspired by a kernel of truth e.g. and run with it, can you say the whole is the truth? I don't think so. One could well have made up some stuff in homage to the kernel which is not the idea presented by the verses.
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These verses do NOT come from a perfect God and therefore I must reject the revelation's claim to divinity.
It truly pains me to say that I must now as a seeker of truth, renounce my faith in the divinity of the Qur'an this day.
ok faithful-jinn, it is you who started this thread by renouncing your faith rejecting the Koran by making the statement the 'verses do NOT come from a perfect God".
and now you are claiming that you do not know if the Koran is from God. hmmm..... can you state clearly what your position is? 'don't know" if the koran is from God is different than declaring the koran is not from God.
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ok faithful-jinn, it is you who started this thread by renouncing your faith rejecting the Koran by making the statement the 'verses do NOT come from a perfect God".
and now you are claiming that you do not know if the Koran is from God. hmmm..... can you state clearly what your position is? 'don't know" if the koran is from God is different than declaring the koran is not from God.
Okay let me clarify. I don't believe the Qur'an is the direct word of God anymore but I can neither confirm nor deny if some type of God does exist.
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Do you believe "Qoran" is the word of GOD? How can you choose what suits you then?
Where does it say in the Quran that it's the Word Of God? (Kalamullah)
Show me if you're truthful!It's again a legacy from "Medieval Scholars" where they're debating whether "Quran is created or not"..
And of course Quran is created.. and it's written by human, using human language.. it's as simple as that..
It's not holy at all....Qoran does not have contradictions. GOD s commands are a sacred duty!. If you follow your conscience, then your conscience is your "idol". We must follow GOD Alone.
Where does it say in Quran or Gospel or Torah or Tao Te Ching or other books which (some) human considered to be holy that "You should not follow your conscience"??????
ON CONTRARY..
Within some books in the bible bundle there are description that God DOES talk through our conscience!
And so does in the Quran... people who often ignored his/her own conscience is said to have 'a disease in their own heart'..And so far my conscience proved to be better than any others..
And the best part is my conscience never declare itself to be holy!!People who do evil, know very well that they're doing bad deed.. as their conscience told them so...
Yet due to some reasons (greed,hatred,envy,ambition and others) they choose to disregard their own conscience... if they continue to ignore their own conscience, then it will grow darker and darker and darker..As Quran said it best
"Those who do bad deed do it for their own souls and those who do good deed do it for their own soul"...Try It!
Pick any poor beggar on the street, strike him up with a baseball stick or whatever.. or if that's too brutal, steal his money! or mug him! If your conscience are still healthy you'll feel bad of what you did AND you do recognize that what you did is evil! Without consulting any 'holy books' or 'priest'!Salam / Peace
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If we take 4251 and bring in 6943 (which has a word denoting a staged/progressive revelation if you will)...then it appears to be a literal word by word. If inspired in the english sense, you'd have people waxing lyrical which might include errors and apparently God is being particularly detail conscious here. 5233 for example, if you're inspired by a kernel of truth e.g. and run with it, can you say the whole is the truth? I don't think so. One could well have made up some stuff in homage to the kernel which is not the idea presented by the verses.
Well, firstly i had to look up the definition of kernel -[
But yes, i agree with you, and i do believe the Qur'an is the literal word of God, although i do believe it's presented a form most understandable to the average man, not space age man, no doubt society will regress back from our current knowledge but we will still have the Qur'an.I was mostly hoping that my post would at least satisfy Faithful Jinn, surely it's far better to believe it is the inspired word of God then reject it entirely? It seems he has completely overlooked that option, although i haven't read all the replies in this thread.
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Try It!
Pick any poor beggar on the street, strike him up with a baseball stick or whatever.. or if that's too brutal, steal his money! or mug him! If your conscience are still healthy you'll feel bad of what you did AND you do recognize that what you did is evil! Without consulting any 'holy books' or 'priest'!Salam / Peace
what if you have no conscience? people do things thinking they can get away and some even find amusement in hurting others. if there was no God and holy book talking about judgment day then what about these folks? no accountability?
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Okay let me clarify. I don't believe the Qur'an is the direct word of God anymore but I can neither confirm nor deny if some type of God does exist.
so you are an agnostic then? what would be your basis to confirm or deny God's existence? how do you suppose you would go about doing that? how do you know that God exists in the first place? doesn't confirming or denying existence entail having knowledge.
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Well, firstly i had to look up the definition of kernel -[
But yes, i agree with you, and i do believe the Qur'an is the literal word of God, although i do believe it's presented a form most understandable to the average man, not space age man, no doubt society will regress back from our current knowledge but we will still have the Qur'an.I was mostly hoping that my post would at least satisfy Faithful Jinn, surely it's far better to believe it is the inspired word of God then reject it entirely? It seems he has completely overlooked that option, although i haven't read all the replies in this thread.
Felt I had to check the definition after I read that you did
I too think it's in a form most understandable to the average man. It's a discussion I've had off and on that it's not just some hidden font of obscure veiled references that only the chosen few will get. Sure there are levels and the more perceptive you are, the more you might get from something etc but it's also just...accessible and it has to be since it's for mankind not a culty clique.
yeah, about the op...no idea.
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It would be interesting to know from people who do believe that Quran is the word of God, on which basis they confirm that belief?
And if it is not, than we are debating about it as about any other piece of literature, don't we Jafar?
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so you are an agnostic then? what would be your basis to confirm or deny God's existence? how do you suppose you would go about doing that? how do you know that God exists in the first place? doesn't confirming or denying existence entail having knowledge.
Well yeah exactly. Confirming or denying entails having knowledge.
That's why I said I can do neither of those things.
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Felt I had to check the definition after I read that you did
I too think it's in a form most understandable to the average man. It's a discussion I've had off and on that it's not just some hidden font of obscure veiled references that only the chosen few will get. Sure there are levels and the more perceptive you are, the more you might get from something etc but it's also just...accessible and it has to be since it's for mankind not a culty clique.
yeah, about the op...no idea.
If it's so understandable why is there so little concensus on what it means to different people? I feel like the book has truth in it but at the same time I feel like there is some falsehood.
Why so much conflict and hatred over this book? Not just between different faiths but within the Muslim community.
The Qur'an tells a story of God's revelation to mankind and how mankind has failed to utilize His wisdom. It seems almost every single messenger has failed somehow in spreading their message. All the messengers were received poorly by their people they were sent to warn and the book giving prophets spawned false religions that changed the word of God for the word of men.
Then you have Muhammad come onto the scene and he's going to fix everything. But maybe the Muhammad with the Qur'an is no different than the other messengers. History and the Qur'an give us the precedent that every time a book giving prophet comes, the religion that it creates is mixed with falsehood. Is this time any different?
The Jews corrupted the word of God and created falsehood. They wrote their own laws and added to God's law saying it was from God.
The Christians worshipped the man who bore the message instead of God.
Should now be any different
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If it's so understandable why is there so little concensus on what it means to different people? I feel like the book has truth in it but at the same time I feel like there is some falsehood.
Why so much conflict and hatred over this book? Not just between different faiths but within the Muslim community.
The Qur'an tells a story of God's revelation to mankind and how mankind has failed to utilize His wisdom. It seems almost every single messenger has failed somehow in spreading their message. All the messengers were received poorly by their people they were sent to warn and the book giving prophets spawned false religions that changed the word of God for the word of men.
Salaam,
The messengers didn't fail but their people (most of them) fail.
Then you have Muhammad come onto the scene and he's going to fix everything. But maybe the Muhammad with the Qur'an is no different than the other messengers. History and the Qur'an give us the precedent that every time a book giving prophet comes, the religion that it creates is mixed with falsehood. Is this time any different?
2252 And We did not send before you any messenger or prophet, without having the devil interfere with his wishes. God then overrides what the devil has cast, and God secures His revelations. And God is Knower, Wise.
Salaam,
Bender -
It would be interesting to know from people who do believe that Quran is the word of God, on which basis they confirm that belief?
And if it is not, than we are debating about it as about any other piece of literature, don't we Jafar?
There is a whole section called Quranic Divinity you may be interested in. Some threads from the section
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16234.0
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=11711.0
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=11372.0Lots more if you search.
If it's so understandable why is there so little concensus on what it means to different people? I feel like the book has truth in it but at the same time I feel like there is some falsehood.
Why so much conflict and hatred over this book? Not just between different faiths but within the Muslim community.
The Qur'an tells a story of God's revelation to mankind and how mankind has failed to utilize His wisdom. It seems almost every single messenger has failed somehow in spreading their message. All the messengers were received poorly by their people they were sent to warn and the book giving prophets spawned false religions that changed the word of God for the word of men.
Then you have Muhammad come onto the scene and he's going to fix everything. But maybe the Muhammad with the Qur'an is no different than the other messengers. History and the Qur'an give us the precedent that every time a book giving prophet comes, the religion that it creates is mixed with falsehood. Is this time any different?
The Jews corrupted the word of God and created falsehood. They wrote their own laws and added to God's law saying it was from God.
The Christians worshipped the man who bore the message instead of God.
Should now be any different
There is little consensus on different things no matter where you go and what you believe in. Like I've said on this forum before, try a game forum where people will fight like cats and dogs over the meaning of a character's dialogue for example, when the dev that wrote that cha is right there telling them what it means. They will still insist that the dev had the wrong idea.We have people arguing over the need for for a hydroelectric dam when major cities that they live in get only 8 hours of electricity in a day! It's life. It's human nature; people are different. There are different ways of seeing things, different perceptions, pre-conceptions, environments, personalities. We are told to follow the best, we are told to reason, see, think etc. Combine all that and you can come to a decent conclusion keeping in mind that anything bad/wrong/evil cannot be commanded by God. If you feel there is falsehood, take it one step at a time...from the solid basis of what you definitely think/feel is true to the rest.
It's not just over this book. It's over so many things. Instead of singling one thing out, try to figure out why humans are petty, illogical, unreasonable, greedy, unkind etc. If you're thinking that one book from God should change all that, good luck. It's not magic, there is also no force involved. People have free choice. They have to change themselves before putting effort into any decent changes around them. Why follow it then? Since there is no force involved, people should come to it of their own volition if they recognise it as truth from God (obviously if they believe there is one) given what they see/know/have experienced. Others might come to it if they recognise it as a truth that holds true given what they see/know/have experienced even if they don't believe there is a God and chalk it up to wise words worth following etc. Some might not ever take it as the complete truth but believe in God, judgement and doing good. They would still be muslims.
Where does it say that the prophet of the quran was going to be a game changer? We have 2530 where his people will have forsaken the quran? No messenger has failed in delivering the message. People have failed in heeding the message throughout. There is a difference. Humanity hasn't evolved into a different species apparently.
The only difference is what you make. And then worry about the rest. One step at a time.