I renounced my faith in the divinity of the Qur'an today
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Well, firstly i had to look up the definition of kernel -[
But yes, i agree with you, and i do believe the Qur'an is the literal word of God, although i do believe it's presented a form most understandable to the average man, not space age man, no doubt society will regress back from our current knowledge but we will still have the Qur'an.I was mostly hoping that my post would at least satisfy Faithful Jinn, surely it's far better to believe it is the inspired word of God then reject it entirely? It seems he has completely overlooked that option, although i haven't read all the replies in this thread.
Felt I had to check the definition after I read that you did
I too think it's in a form most understandable to the average man. It's a discussion I've had off and on that it's not just some hidden font of obscure veiled references that only the chosen few will get. Sure there are levels and the more perceptive you are, the more you might get from something etc but it's also just...accessible and it has to be since it's for mankind not a culty clique.
yeah, about the op...no idea.
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It would be interesting to know from people who do believe that Quran is the word of God, on which basis they confirm that belief?
And if it is not, than we are debating about it as about any other piece of literature, don't we Jafar?
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so you are an agnostic then? what would be your basis to confirm or deny God's existence? how do you suppose you would go about doing that? how do you know that God exists in the first place? doesn't confirming or denying existence entail having knowledge.
Well yeah exactly. Confirming or denying entails having knowledge.
That's why I said I can do neither of those things.
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Felt I had to check the definition after I read that you did
I too think it's in a form most understandable to the average man. It's a discussion I've had off and on that it's not just some hidden font of obscure veiled references that only the chosen few will get. Sure there are levels and the more perceptive you are, the more you might get from something etc but it's also just...accessible and it has to be since it's for mankind not a culty clique.
yeah, about the op...no idea.
If it's so understandable why is there so little concensus on what it means to different people? I feel like the book has truth in it but at the same time I feel like there is some falsehood.
Why so much conflict and hatred over this book? Not just between different faiths but within the Muslim community.
The Qur'an tells a story of God's revelation to mankind and how mankind has failed to utilize His wisdom. It seems almost every single messenger has failed somehow in spreading their message. All the messengers were received poorly by their people they were sent to warn and the book giving prophets spawned false religions that changed the word of God for the word of men.
Then you have Muhammad come onto the scene and he's going to fix everything. But maybe the Muhammad with the Qur'an is no different than the other messengers. History and the Qur'an give us the precedent that every time a book giving prophet comes, the religion that it creates is mixed with falsehood. Is this time any different?
The Jews corrupted the word of God and created falsehood. They wrote their own laws and added to God's law saying it was from God.
The Christians worshipped the man who bore the message instead of God.
Should now be any different
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If it's so understandable why is there so little concensus on what it means to different people? I feel like the book has truth in it but at the same time I feel like there is some falsehood.
Why so much conflict and hatred over this book? Not just between different faiths but within the Muslim community.
The Qur'an tells a story of God's revelation to mankind and how mankind has failed to utilize His wisdom. It seems almost every single messenger has failed somehow in spreading their message. All the messengers were received poorly by their people they were sent to warn and the book giving prophets spawned false religions that changed the word of God for the word of men.
Salaam,
The messengers didn't fail but their people (most of them) fail.
Then you have Muhammad come onto the scene and he's going to fix everything. But maybe the Muhammad with the Qur'an is no different than the other messengers. History and the Qur'an give us the precedent that every time a book giving prophet comes, the religion that it creates is mixed with falsehood. Is this time any different?
2252 And We did not send before you any messenger or prophet, without having the devil interfere with his wishes. God then overrides what the devil has cast, and God secures His revelations. And God is Knower, Wise.
Salaam,
Bender -
It would be interesting to know from people who do believe that Quran is the word of God, on which basis they confirm that belief?
And if it is not, than we are debating about it as about any other piece of literature, don't we Jafar?
There is a whole section called Quranic Divinity you may be interested in. Some threads from the section
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16234.0
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=11711.0
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=11372.0Lots more if you search.
If it's so understandable why is there so little concensus on what it means to different people? I feel like the book has truth in it but at the same time I feel like there is some falsehood.
Why so much conflict and hatred over this book? Not just between different faiths but within the Muslim community.
The Qur'an tells a story of God's revelation to mankind and how mankind has failed to utilize His wisdom. It seems almost every single messenger has failed somehow in spreading their message. All the messengers were received poorly by their people they were sent to warn and the book giving prophets spawned false religions that changed the word of God for the word of men.
Then you have Muhammad come onto the scene and he's going to fix everything. But maybe the Muhammad with the Qur'an is no different than the other messengers. History and the Qur'an give us the precedent that every time a book giving prophet comes, the religion that it creates is mixed with falsehood. Is this time any different?
The Jews corrupted the word of God and created falsehood. They wrote their own laws and added to God's law saying it was from God.
The Christians worshipped the man who bore the message instead of God.
Should now be any different
There is little consensus on different things no matter where you go and what you believe in. Like I've said on this forum before, try a game forum where people will fight like cats and dogs over the meaning of a character's dialogue for example, when the dev that wrote that cha is right there telling them what it means. They will still insist that the dev had the wrong idea.We have people arguing over the need for for a hydroelectric dam when major cities that they live in get only 8 hours of electricity in a day! It's life. It's human nature; people are different. There are different ways of seeing things, different perceptions, pre-conceptions, environments, personalities. We are told to follow the best, we are told to reason, see, think etc. Combine all that and you can come to a decent conclusion keeping in mind that anything bad/wrong/evil cannot be commanded by God. If you feel there is falsehood, take it one step at a time...from the solid basis of what you definitely think/feel is true to the rest.
It's not just over this book. It's over so many things. Instead of singling one thing out, try to figure out why humans are petty, illogical, unreasonable, greedy, unkind etc. If you're thinking that one book from God should change all that, good luck. It's not magic, there is also no force involved. People have free choice. They have to change themselves before putting effort into any decent changes around them. Why follow it then? Since there is no force involved, people should come to it of their own volition if they recognise it as truth from God (obviously if they believe there is one) given what they see/know/have experienced. Others might come to it if they recognise it as a truth that holds true given what they see/know/have experienced even if they don't believe there is a God and chalk it up to wise words worth following etc. Some might not ever take it as the complete truth but believe in God, judgement and doing good. They would still be muslims.
Where does it say that the prophet of the quran was going to be a game changer? We have 2530 where his people will have forsaken the quran? No messenger has failed in delivering the message. People have failed in heeding the message throughout. There is a difference. Humanity hasn't evolved into a different species apparently.
The only difference is what you make. And then worry about the rest. One step at a time.
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There is a whole section called Quranic Divinity you may be interested in. Some threads from the section
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16234.0
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=11711.0
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=11372.0Lots more if you search.
There is little consensus on different things no matter where you go and what you believe in. Like I've said on this forum before, try a game forum where people will fight like cats and dogs over the meaning of a character's dialogue for example, when the dev that wrote that cha is right there telling them what it means. They will still insist that the dev had the wrong idea.We have people arguing over the need for for a hydroelectric dam when major cities that they live in get only 8 hours of electricity in a day! It's life. It's human nature; people are different. There are different ways of seeing things, different perceptions, pre-conceptions, environments, personalities. We are told to follow the best, we are told to reason, see, think etc. Combine all that and you can come to a decent conclusion keeping in mind that anything bad/wrong/evil cannot be commanded by God. If you feel there is falsehood, take it one step at a time...from the solid basis of what you definitely think/feel is true to the rest.It's not just over this book. It's over so many things. Instead of singling one thing out, try to figure out why humans are petty, illogical, unreasonable, greedy, unkind etc. If you're thinking that one book from God should change all that, good luck. It's not magic, there is also no force involved. People have free choice. They have to change themselves before putting effort into any decent changes around them. Why follow it then? Since there is no force involved, people should come to it of their own volition if they recognise it as truth from God (obviously if they believe there is one) given what they see/know/have experienced. Others might come to it if they recognise it as a truth that holds true given what they see/know/have experienced even if they don't believe there is a God and chalk it up to wise words worth following etc. Some might not ever take it as the complete truth but believe in God, judgement and doing good. They would still be muslims.
Where does it say that the prophet of the quran was going to be a game changer? We have 2530 where his people will have forsaken the quran? No messenger has failed in delivering the message. People have failed in heeding the message throughout. There is a difference. Humanity hasn't evolved into a different species apparently.
The only difference is what you make. And then worry about the rest. One step at a time.
Good , wise words...
Nevertheless...
The more I read things here, the more I realize how much Mr Rashad Khalifa PhD. was probably right overall, in his message. I used to reject him completely, especially when some Arab speaking people from this Forum showed that miracle 19 was incorrect etc, but now I even think that among the contemporary, modern so-called theologians, his reasoning and message, unifying all of the three monotheist ideas, Judaism, Christianity and Islam, as a messenger of the covenant, is the best. I can hardly find any errors in his appendices, although some might consider them as new hadiths.
It is also pity that so little credit is given to him, since he is the one who created the modern Quran-alone, hadith-free Islam that so many feed upon now, even the very existence of this Forum is in debt with him.
I also think that hadn't he been assassinated by Muslim fanatics, perhaps he would have had the opportunity to upgrade his views and correct some opinions discovering even more things.
I accepted Islam mainly because of the 19miracle proof and his explanations, but later some people persuaded me that it is all utter delusional slosh and bad version of Quran.But then what are we left with? ???
As @Faithful Jinn so well said,
If it's so understandable why is there so little consensus on what it means to different people? I feel like the book has truth in it but at the same time I feel like there is some falsehood.
Why so much conflict and hatred over this book? Not just between different faiths but within the Muslim community.
I am just plainly tired of reading different translations and different meanings, disputes over the roots and etymology of words etc, without anybody agreeing on anything, and all that just killed in me not only the wish to go deeper, but even to learn Arabic!
And thank you @savage_carrot for the links.
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Perhaps my judgment has been hasty. I retract my previous statements and declare my own ignorance.
I simply don't know anymore. I'm going to have to do some soul searching. I'm going to pray for some guidance or revelation.
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Good , wise words...
Nevertheless...
The more I read things here, the more I realize how much Mr Rashad Khalifa PhD. was probably right overall, in his message. I used to reject him completely, especially when some Arab speaking people from this Forum showed that miracle 19 was incorrect etc, but now I even think that among the contemporary, modern so-called theologians, his reasoning and message, unifying all of the three monotheist ideas, Judaism, Christianity and Islam, as a messenger of the covenant, is the best. I can hardly find any errors in his appendices, although some might consider them as new hadiths.
It is also pity that so little credit is given to him, since he is the one who created the modern Quran-alone, hadith-free Islam that so many feed upon now, even the very existence of this Forum is in debt with him.
I also think that hadn't he been assassinated by Muslim fanatics, perhaps he would have had the opportunity to upgrade his views and correct some opinions discovering even more things.
I accepted Islam mainly because of the 19miracle proof and his explanations, but later some people persuaded me that it is all utter delusional slosh and bad version of Quran.I came to the hadith free version from the submission site as well.
But then what are we left with? ???
As @Faithful Jinn so well said,
I am just plainly tired of reading different translations and different meanings, disputes over the roots and etymology of words etc, without anybody agreeing on anything, and all that just killed in me not only the wish to go deeper, but even to learn Arabic!And thank you @savage_carrot for the links.
I understand that it can be overwhelming and just plain irritating at times. I usually avoid most of it unless I see obvious issues. I actually enjoy reading elegant/simple translations and/or doing concordances of words (corpus quran is an easy to use site). I also do think that reasoning is one of the most important tools we should use in this regard, or in any situation. Forget the confusion and just stick to the basics and build from there. If it doesn't go anywhere, least you have something solid you can rely on and/or can confirm.peace
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Perhaps my judgment has been hasty. I retract my previous statements and declare my own ignorance.
I simply don't know anymore. I'm going to have to do some soul searching. I'm going to pray for some guidance or revelation.
Good to know. Update if you want.
peace
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Thank you @savage_carrot!
I appreciate very much your sincerity and your confession
I came to the hadith free version from the submission site as well.
I might re-evaluate Mr Khalifa's ideas and message again, because I consider them the best acceptable stand for the relationship with God in the computer age. )
God is running everything sun
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what if you have no conscience? people do things thinking they can get away and some even find amusement in hurting others. if there was no God and holy book talking about judgment day then what about these folks? no accountability?
No human being born into this world without conscience..
As for those who do bad deed... initially their conscience does 'call out' to them.. yet they choose to ignore... and ignore.. and ignore.. until it 'dies out'...
And it's within God's law a.k.a Natural's law that 'everybody will get what they deserve'..
Those who planted good seed shall have good harvest and those who planted bad seed shall have bad harvest.It's a LAW and nobody can break it.. whenever they believe it or not, it doesn't matter at all.. as the LAW is binding to everyone.. In similitude as the earth is round.. whenever people believe it or not, it doesn't matter.. as the earth is round even when no one believe in it.. Even when there's no book which told everyone that the earth is round..
That's why the #1 Guiding Principle is
Truth doesn't need any protection, it just need to be told... and people are FREE yes.. FREE To believe whatever they want...And the Kuffars shall do everything on their power including propaganda, terror, lies/deceit and murder to keep the truth from being told to the masses. That's how you can identify which one are the 'true kuffars'... and certainly it's not based on 'cult/sect/religion'...
Salam / Peace
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Thank you @savage_carrot!
I appreciate very much your sincerity and your confession
I might re-evaluate Mr Khalifa's ideas and message again, because I consider them the best acceptable stand for the relationship with God in the computer age.
God is running everything sun
Good to know this, I personally think Dr Rashad's idea is the most outstanding, and miracle of 19 is really shining. Some people try to disregard this miracle, but so far none convince me yet, because just by simple counting in Quran manually, I actually find that this is true.
And indeed this 19 miracle is THE foundation that brought Dr Rashad to conclusion that we must follow Quran alone, his idea spread and start the Quran alone trend in the world.
Ironically, now the people who quickly reject miracle 19 without deeper research, was actually brought to Quran alone by the miracle of 19 itself.
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If it's so understandable why is there so little concensus on what it means to different people? I feel like the book has truth in it but at the same time I feel like there is some falsehood.
Why so much conflict and hatred over this book? Not just between different faiths but within the Muslim community.
The Qur'an tells a story of God's revelation to mankind and how mankind has failed to utilize His wisdom. It seems almost every single messenger has failed somehow in spreading their message. All the messengers were received poorly by their people they were sent to warn and the book giving prophets spawned false religions that changed the word of God for the word of men.
Then you have Muhammad come onto the scene and he's going to fix everything. But maybe the Muhammad with the Qur'an is no different than the other messengers. History and the Qur'an give us the precedent that every time a book giving prophet comes, the religion that it creates is mixed with falsehood. Is this time any different?
The Jews corrupted the word of God and created falsehood. They wrote their own laws and added to God's law saying it was from God.
The Christians worshipped the man who bore the message instead of God.
Should now be any different
He sent down to you this scripture, containing straightforward verses?which constitute the essence of the scripture?as well as multiple-meaning or allegorical verses. Those who harbor doubts in their hearts will pursue the multiple-meaning verses to create confusion, and to extricate a certain meaning. None knows the true meaning thereof except GOD and those well founded in knowledge. They say, "We believe in this?all of it comes from our Lord." Only those who possess intelligence will take heed.
The Qur'an answers your own questions. It seems as if you've become so content in your disbelieve that nothing can even persuade you a little now.
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Good to know this, I personally think Dr Rashad's idea is the most outstanding, and miracle of 19 is really shining. Some people try to disregard this miracle, but so far none convince me yet, because just by simple counting in Quran manually, I actually find that this is true.
And indeed this 19 miracle is THE foundation that brought Dr Rashad to conclusion that we must follow Quran alone, his idea spread and start the Quran alone trend in the world.
Ironically, now the people who quickly reject miracle 19 without deeper research, was actually brought to Quran alone by the miracle of 19 itself.
Thank you brother @donnyw, I agree with you.
I share your thoughts, but on the other side, people who dismissed Khalifa's work seem so convincing... Sometimes I wonder, to whom Mr Khalifa's work is so threatening?
All Dr. Khalifa's work and findings are outstanding in so many ways! Considerable significance for me is also the fact that he was a scientist and a modern, civilized westernized man, with a brilliant mind, and not some backward religious douchebag.
Even the fact that he was assassinated by Muslim fanatics adds to the puzzle.But you see, the Quran itself talks about the provocation of miracle 19, and I am still utterly confused, not knowing Arabic, because some people translate and interpret the Qur'an's warning about the 19 in totally opposite ways!!! brickwall
(I am talking about Surah 7430)One thing is for sure it is a test, as the whole Quran seems to be some kind of test...
I sometimes wish I was a perfectly blissful innocent, empty minded simple man, who was never contaminated with the idea of religion, god and phantasmagoria things...There is a passage in Talmud which says "For someone who things what is beneath, what is behind, what is below and what is above, it is better for him never to had been born."
Blessed are indeed those pure in heart and simple in nature.
peace -
It seems almost every single messenger has failed somehow in spreading their message. All the messengers were received poorly by their people they were sent to warn and the book giving prophets spawned false religions that changed the word of God for the word of men.
God fully knows that messengers and scripture will be mocked-up, He let it happen!
The people who changed it and their followers are the best example of liars and disbelievers whom God intend to show us (the next generations).So Quran is not like some cult religion who guarantee all human to be saved by it and all those sweet polishing words full of promises. Instead Quran is a test, a filter that will separates the liars and the sincere.
Quran is not intended to be a beacon to save all humanity, instead it is designed to save few people only (righteous people), read 22.
So Quran is entirely a different concept of 'scripture' that you might think.
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God fully knows that messengers and scripture will be mocked-up, He let it happen!
The people who changed it and their followers are the best example of liars and disbelievers whom God intend to show us (the next generations).So Quran is not like some cult religion who guarantee all human to be saved by it and all those sweet polishing words full of promises. Instead Quran is a test, a filter that will separates the liars and the sincere.
Quran is not intended to be a beacon to save all humanity, instead it is designed to save few people only (righteous people), read 22.
So Quran is entirely a different concept of 'scripture' that you might think.
Thank you for these excellent words! (red coloring is mine)
Very good point! I agree!
Finally I see it clearly written, what I always somehow felt! That the Quran is for a few chosen ones ONLY!
Imam Al-Ghazali b 1058 (called Proof of Islam) quotes in his huge book (Revival of the Religion) that Muhammad said that Islam started with a few loners and will end with a few solitary true believers. )
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But you see, the Quran itself talks about the provocation of miracle 19, and I am still utterly confused, not knowing Arabic, because some people translate and interpret the Qur'an's warning about the 19 in totally opposite ways!!!
(I am talking about Surah 7430)Peace brother Godsubmitter,
What you said is also true for me, I tried to follow their logic (folks who interpret 7430 in opposite way), anyhow I just felt that the interpretation has some flaw on it. For example if 19 is simply the number of angels guarding hell, how it could make a difference than 19thousand or 19billions angels? God said the number is a test for disbeliever, so perhaps disbeliever will be convinced if the number of angels is 19trillions-zillions instead? ;D
Their interpretation just doesn't make sense to me. Because even any number of angels wont matter for disbeliever. So that is the exact reason why disbeliever will ask "What God means by this alegory" because they just dont understand why the number of angels matter. Opponent in this forum tend to mock this miracle of 19, they believe that God refer to 19 angels only. But inside their deepest heart they kept asking themselves... why 19 angels really matter? confused
Also 19 angels is supposed to strengthen our faith, how it can strengthen our faith? For example I dont find 18 angels or 20 angels will not strengthen my faith me but 19 angels miraculously will! What is the big difference between 18, 19 and 20 angels? This is something that the opponent of miracle 19 (the number itself not the angels) find very hard to answer.
- 19 angels - bring confusion, wondering, defy common sense.... why it really matters?
- 19 (as the number itself) - bring intelligent question, intriguing discovery, wonderful finding.
Sorry for the bold and font color, just dont want you to missed it D
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Finally I see it clearly written, what I always somehow felt! That the Quran is for a few chosen ones ONLY!
Glad that you see it as well brother, how can most people miss it? 22 It is the opening verse of the Quran after Al-fatihah!
22 This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for the muttaqin.
It is NOT a guidance for all human... ;D
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God fully knows that messengers and scripture will be mocked-up, He let it happen!
The people who changed it and their followers are the best example of liars and disbelievers whom God intend to show us (the next generations).So Quran is not like some cult religion who guarantee all human to be saved by it and all those sweet polishing words full of promises. Instead Quran is a test, a filter that will separates the liars and the sincere.
Quran is not intended to be a beacon to save all humanity, instead it is designed to save few people only (righteous people), read 22.
So Quran is entirely a different concept of 'scripture' that you might think.
I disagree because if you take it as only a few people will take guidance/heed (meaning a minority out of a majority), it's entirely different from the quran being for mankind. So, I would correct it's for mankind but only some will understand it as guidance/heed it. It isn't only designed to save some people, only some people will choose to be saved by it. It's designed for mankind, not some people. Nothing can save everyone unless force is involved.
Finally I see it clearly written, what I always somehow felt! That the Quran is for a few chosen ones ONLY!
Imam Al-Ghazali b 1058 (called Proof of Islam) quotes in his huge book (Revival of the Religion) that Muhammad said that Islam started with a few loners and will end with a few solitary true believers. )
You're taking it the wrong way. I don't subscribe to the 19 stuff btw, either.