Sex before Marriage is not haram (prohibited) according to the Quran (Summary)
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Peace Wakas
I prefer this summary http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9599518.msg236459#msg236459
Do you mean this summary?
peace David, all,
I'm surprised you say this is a controversial topic.See reply #45 for my view.
I agree with your conclusions. The view for sex before marriage is laughable, e.g. 3349, 425, not to mention making a mockery of all the waiting period verses in AQ post talaq/divorce.
I have not been paying attention to this thread, but if someone has explained away and/or refuted the above two verses, please link me to the post
The equivalent approach and consideration would yield the following result
See reply 1 for my view
I'm surprised you say this is a controversial topic. The view for sex being exclusive to marriage is laughable, e.g. 235-6, 423-25 not to mention making a mockery of what it is to unguard one's private parts.I have not been paying attention to this thread titled (sex is exclusive to marriage), but if someone has explained away and/or refuted the above verses, please link me to the post.
Surely such an approach is inadequate and inappropriate in particular when reply 45 is nothing more than
peace Sarah, all,There has been huge amounts of discussion on muhsinat and MMA. I personally have not studied it in detail. From my studies however, MMA can mean ANYONE who is committed to you by oath/contract/agreement, and could include adopted children, servants, doctor, surgeon, engaged partner etc.
ALL the evidence I have seen for a physical relationship prior to marriage has been invalid, and weak at best.
Also, we must remember when AQ was revealed, there would have been many people with MMA and engagements already in place, perhaps even with several wives. As far as I'm aware, AQ does not terminate these EXISTING commitments, but provides guidelines and restricts such situations for the future, eventually fading out such practices as multiple wives etc.
Inadequate in that it is missing so much from a deep topic and inappropriate in that it claims a) to have "not studied it in detail" and makes use of inappropriate words in a peaceful and serious discussion such as "laughable" with regards to the opposing views
Perhaps you've posted the wrong link with regards to your preferred summary.
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And the muhsinat except the MMA I think the first part is a continuation of the previous verse. I dont think its saying the muhsinat except the MMA. The muhsinat here I think is continuing the prohibition form the previous verse than it talks about MMA. An MMA can be a muhsina. The and here is a changing of subject.
Ok but then wouldn't this imply
That the muhsinat women are prohibited for marriage under all circumstances?
Also consider the following verses
55 Today, the good things have been made lawful to you, and the food of those who have been given the Book is lawful for you, and your food is lawful for them; and the independent (muhsinat) females from those who are believers, and the independent (muhsinat) females from those who have been given the Book before you, if you have given them their dowries, to be independent (muhsin), not for illicit sex or taking lovers.
If the muhsinat women are always prohibited for marriage, wouldn't this clash with 55?
Also 425 And whoever of you cannot afford to marry the independent female believers, then...
Given these two verses, I think that in 424 the part "except MMA" is strictly referring to the muhsinat women. If this was not strictly referring to the muhsinat women, the implication of this would be that it also applies to all those stated in 423 Forbidden for you are your mothers, and your daughters...
For these reasons I think that in 424 the "except MMA" MUST necessarily be referring to only Muhsinat women and given that in 425 marriage to the fatayat is only permissible if they are MMA, I think it stands that marriage to either fatayat or muhsinat is only permissible if they are first one's MMAs.
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Salam Mazhar
Women are made permissible only for purpose. People ignore this basic and fundamental fact while interpreting this issue.
I'm not sure what you mean here.
Moreover, amongst women those are also forbidden/sanctified who are protected/are already a wedded pearl
Am I to take here that your understanding of the muhsinat women is that they married? If so, based on what verses?
They are made permissible solely for the purpose that you might sincerely seek them with your wealth in the manner of those who seek women to take them in the protective fold of Nikah/to make them a pearl of their life/home;
and not for seeking them with wealth in the manner of debauch men for sexual lust/merely for flowing out the "water". [Refer 424I've checked the verse out and have commented on it to Sarah
Here is what i wrote to her "I'm assuming that your referring to 425. 425 is only with regards to the fatayat. not everyone. They (the fatayat) should seek to be muhsin not sin-fa-ha. And of course they should seek not to be masfan lewd, or have impermissible sex. No one should, whatever their status"
The point I'm making is that sex with MMAs is permissible for whatever reason pleasure, fun, love whatever. However in the case of nikah, this is not the case and is not acceptable as made clear by verses such as 425
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Quote
Moreover, amongst women those are also forbidden/sanctified who are protected/are already a wedded pearlAm I to take here that your understanding of the muhsinat women is that they married? If so, based on what verses?
The first step in "reading" a text is to identify the word. Please identify the word as to what it is, thereby it will signify the meanings. Thereafter, please determine its role in the sentence, it will further expose all its aspects.
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The first step in "reading" a text is to identify the word. Please identify the word as to what it is, thereby it will signify the meanings. Thereafter, please determine its role in the sentence, it will further expose all its aspects.
I'm pretty sure this has already been done in the other thread. I should have added it to the summary. I was curious to find out what you took it as. In my opinion it is independent which contrasts nicely with fatayat which I take to mean dependent.
Addition to the summary
The root of muhsinat
Ha-Sad-Nun = To be guarded, be inaccessible/unapproachable, be chaste, be strongly fortified, difficult to access, be preserved, be protected (against attack), abstain from what is not lawful nor decorous, preserve or guard a thing in places inaccessible/unapproachable, make or render a thing inaccessible or unapproachable or difficult to access, make/render a thing unattainable by reason of its height, to fortify oneself.
For verification of this root
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume2/00000222.pdf
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume2/00000223.pdfThe root of fatayat
Fa-Ta-Ya = to be young, full-grown, brave, generous, manly qualities, bold, courageous, fine fellow, gallant, young comrade, young slave, servant.
afta - to advise, give an opinion/instruction, decision, judgement or decision in a matter of law, give a formal legal decree, announce of inform a legal order, issue a (divine) decree or sacred law, explain the meaning, pronounce, furnish explanation.For verification of this root
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume6/00000120.pdf
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume6/00000121.pdf -
You have correctly got the Root. But what I said was identify the word. It is Passive Participle. And now go back to Root and see what happens when an action signified therein has since been carried upon these feminines. The second thing is to recognize their state indicated by the last vowel to know what is their role in the sentence.
Lane did not confuse things. However, the present day "scholars" of Qur'aan read his entire page and start thinking as if each word could have all those meanings narrated by him against many words, ignoring all particularities of Arabic language. People naively forget that for reading Arabic to understand the text the last step for consultation is the lexicon.
Participles are derived from the Verbs. When women are sought for marriage they are required to be Active Participles of the same Root and same verb. When they act like that their wives become the above Passive Participle.
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You have correctly got the Root. But what I said was identify the word. It is Passive Participle. And now go back to Root and see what happens when an action signified therein has since been carried upon these feminines. The second thing is to recognize their state indicated by the last vowel to know what is their role in the sentence.
Lane did not confuse things. However, the present day "scholars" of Qur'aan read his entire page and start thinking as if each word could have all those meanings narrated by him against many words, ignoring all particularities of Arabic language. People naively forget that for reading Arabic to understand the text the last step for consultation is the lexicon.
Participles are derived from the Verbs. When women are sought for marriage they are required to be Active Participles of the same Root and same verb. When they act like that their wives become the above Passive Participle.
To clarify, are you only referring to 424 specifically or also other verses with the usage of that root, or the usage of that root in that shape and form?
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Women are made permissible only for purpose. People ignore this basic and fundamental fact while interpreting this issue.
Moreover, amongst women those are also forbidden/sanctified who are protected/are already a wedded pearl
except such married believing women who have since become under your control and authority.
his is the Mandatory prescription of Allah, the Exalted for you people to follow in letter and spirit.
However, women other than those identified ones have been made permissible-knot/restriction removed for you.
They are made permissible solely for the purpose that you might sincerely seek them with your wealth in the manner of those who seek women to take them in the protective fold of Nikah/to make them a pearl of their life/home;
and not for seeking them with wealth in the manner of debauch men for sexual lust/merely for flowing out the "water".It appears to me that a comparison of 424 and 425 shows that the muhsinat cannot mean married women in those verses
424 And wal-mu'antu from the women...
425...And whoever of you cannot afford to marry mu'anti believersIn both 424 and 425, passive participles are used. Thus it appears that they both mean the same thing. Given the content of 424-25 and context, it appears to me that understanding the mushinat women (at least in these verses) in relation to being married, is highly unlikely.
To be guarded or strongly fortified in my opinion sounds like being independent or mature enough mentally and physically to decide for oneself on important matters of life. Which is why I think this contrasts with fatayat because in the case of the fatayat, permission of their parents are required which implies that the fatayat are dependent which in turn implies that they lack mental knowledge, experience or wisdom in life implying their inadequacy to decide for themselves and thus the need to request the permission of the parents.
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To clarify, are you only referring to 424 specifically or also other verses with the usage of that root, or the usage of that root in that shape and form?
Yes, we were talking about with ref to 424.
In Arabic text each word is to be identified and its association with the preceding and following word as well its role in the entire sentence has to be determined first to know the meanings of individual word alongwith connotations and modifications effected because of relationship with other words, and then the perception and thought conveyed in the entire sentence that can be of any length.
The first 11 words of 424 are the continuing clauses of the first Word of 423 the Passive Verb. Here the passive participle is in nominate state showing it to be the Ergative/Proxy Subject of Passive Word like the first prohibited women "your mothers" in 423.
The exceptive particle "Illa" excludes those "Muhsenaat" from the list of prohibited women who are in the protective custody and responsibility of Muslim state they having migrated and are not to be returned-deported to their husbands who are Kaafir.
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I'd appreciate it if you'd correct me if I'm wrong.
As far as I can tell, wal-mu'antu clearly links the muhsinat women to the list of those women who were prohibited in 423. How else would we account for wa?
Secondly (if this is your point), I agree that only the muhsinat women are the exception that can be of Ma malekat aymunkum from the list in 423-24. For example the mothers, cannot be Ma malekat aymunkum. However my way of reaching that conclusion was different to yours. I appreciate the arabic input.
Given that 423 starts with a list of prohibition within which the muhsinat are added to that list in 424 as suggested by the word wa, then it is the case that the muhsinat women are prohibited unless they are of Ma malekat aymunkum.
Also a look at 425 conveys that the fatayat are also prohibited unless they are of Ma malekat aymunkum. Which is why I was arguing that both the muhsinat and the fatayat are forbidden for nikah unless they are of Ma malekat Aymunkum.
What I disagree with you on is that your understanding of what a Ma malekat Aymunkum is.
In my opinion an oath with say my girlfriend would suffice in he being my malekat aymunkum. I think you take it as thosewho are in the protective custody and responsibility of Muslim state they having migrated and are not to be returned-deported to their husbands who are Kaafir
What has lead you to understand Ma malekat aymunkum in this manner? Also If that is all you think that an MMA entails, would that not cause problems with regards to the necessary requirement of the muhsinat and the fatayat women being of ma malekat aymunkum?
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And the muhsinat except the MMA I think the first part is a continuation of the previous verse. I dont think its saying the muhsinat except the MMA. The muhsinat here I think is continuing the prohibition form the previous verse than it talks about MMA. An MMA can be a muhsina. The and here is a changing of subject.
I may have misunderstood you. When you say continuation of the previous verse that means that the muhsinat are part of that list of prohibited women. Except MMA which implies that only when a muhsinat is MMA are they permissible for marriage.
If i've misunderstood your point of view, correct me if i'm wrong.
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you should have left it in one thread, now i'm not sure where you want replies..
anyway i've been thinking
I said
Then it talks about being chaste not unchaste. And the word used is ghayr masafaheen. Sin-fa-ha is the root of that word which denotes fornication/ touch
you said
I'm assuming that your referring to 425. 425 is only with regards to the fatayat. not everyone. They (the fatayat) should seek to be muhsin not sin-fa-ha. And of course they should seek not to be masfan lewd, or have impermissible sex. No one should, whatever their status
My thoughts and comments
Refer to 424-25 and 55.
You made fatayat the exception not everyone. But take a look at 55 you must make women of other scriptures the exception too.
So in other words you?ve degraded the believing women into having sex not the fatyat nor believers of other scriptures. yet nothing is wrong with believers of other scriptures you can marry them according to 55. So how is that you can?t have sex with them?
Masafuhan means fornication/ sex outside of wedlock/ acts of fornication. Look on the link i gave about lanes. In the middle column, Here it is again
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume4/00000093.pdf
why marry the muhsineen who are ?masafuhan? it says not to. So the logic of having sexual acts with them pre-marriage makes no sense at all.
Let me explain again if it is not clear, masafuhan does not mean sex out of ill will, it does not exclusively mean "lewd" it can mean fornication i.e. pre-marital sex.
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you should have left it in one thread, now i'm not sure where you want replies..
Your right. Can everyone please reply in the other thread. Quote via copying from this thread if need be and paste in the other thread.
Sarah I'l reply to you in the other thread. I prefer replies in that thread. At two pages, this won't put people off, whereas 51 pages might put some people off and i don't want this to turn into anything more than just summaries.
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as suggested by the word wa,
It is not the word Wa that suggests like that. It is the Ir'ab of Passive Participle that suggests this whereby we take Wa as conjunction. The grammar of Arabic is basically the Ir'ab--sometimes called heart of Arabic grammar. And how easy they are! There are just 22 points to remember. Similarly exception particle relates only to the persons who are the subject of discussion.
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Also a look at 425 conveys that the fatayat are also prohibited unless they are of Ma malekat aymunkum. Which is why I was arguing that both the muhsinat and the fatayat are forbidden for nikah unless they are of Ma malekat Aymunkum.
This is the Apodosis clause responding to the preceding conditional situation. is the Prepositional + Possessive Phrase relating to circumstance of Relative Pronoun. And Relative Pronoun is explained by the Relative Clause . So it is clear that this type have one category house-maids, women without the protection of family and self earning-self employed. The other category is those wives of non believers who run away from their homeland to migrate to Muslim state where they become their responsibility, obligation and liability. Since they are house-maids and are the responsibility and in protection of a certain family, the permission of that household is required for marriage with them as stated afterwards.
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Mazhar, I hope you don't mind but I've replied to you in this thread
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9599777.510