question about dress code

Wakas

http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/dress-code-women-veil.htm

truthsearcher

Hello

Well the verse says the beauty which should be guarded can be displayed to family mentioned later in the verse, so that which is not acceptable to be displayed in public as discussed above, would be okay to display to family.

So specifically what would be okay to display to family and at the same time would be wrong to display in public ?

I guess you could consider Yusuf Ali to be hadith influenced, especially the parenthesis, plus his translations implies headscarfs.
Hmm, i think i managed to cover that in the last question actually
Well, lets have a look at various other translations, and then the word in question.
http//www.islamawakened.com/quran/33/59/default.htm
draw their cloaks close round them
they should draw over themselves
they should let down upon them their wrapping garments
they should draw down their shawls over them.
It seems the majority of the translations say "over them", In fact i think Rashad is the only one who hasn't.
If we check this link http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=33&verse=59#(33591) we can see that there is indeed a specific word translated as "over them" which is "alayhinna", so Rashad is wrong to leave it out.

Are you trying to say that Rashad was trying to corrupt the verse ?

Thanks for answering

truthsearcher

http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/dress-code-women-veil.htm

I have read this a hundred times but I didn't get my answers from this link. This is why I joined "free-minds.org" - to discuss with people. Seems you didn't read carefully my questions

DaresBears

So specifically what would be okay to display to family and at the same time would be wrong to display in public ?

Well, technically anything can be displayed to the family members labeled in the verse, because there is no restriction given in the Qur'an, it just says it's okay to display to family what you would normally hide to non family. So whatever you are comfortable with i guess. I wouldn't recommend going naked in front of your family o but i don't see it forbidden in the Qur'an . And remember, it's bad to forbid what God has not forbidden.

Are you trying to say that Rashad was trying to corrupt the verse ?

No but his translation certainly isn't a literal word for word translation. It's like he rephrased it. In some cases i think that is acceptable because a word for word translation of Arabic to English often comes out confusing in English, but i don't think it's needed for that verse.

Wakas

You read it hundred times?

You asked

1.Which "beauty" they should not display and which "beauty" they should display (how to define "beauty&quot
a) To their father, housband...?
b) To strangers
2.Whats arabic word for "beauty" and is this verse translated correctly by Yusuf Ali (or does this translate has "hadiths" influence?
3. Is face of woman part of her beauty and should a woman cover her face as part of beauty ?

From
http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/dress-code-women-veil.htm

From the above verse it can be deduced that for the purposes of women's dress code two types of beauty are described

What is apparent (this can be revealed in public)
What is hidden (this type must be covered in public, but could be revealed by a striking of feet or walk/stride which is revealing)

Such a striking of feet or walk could only reveal a limited number of parts of the body, e.g. the private parts, buttocks, thighs, breasts, hips, thus any part not revealed by such an action should not be considered part of hidden beauty and therefore part of apparent beauty. Of course, this means such things as face, hair, hands, feet etc would not clearly fall into the category of beauty that is meant to be hidden. Furthermore, the verse clearly brackets what beauty it is referring to by saying "...the child who has not yet understood the composition of women" implying it is relating to what is specific to a woman (i.e. what is different between man and woman) nothing else.
This understanding would also fit with The Quran's instruction on the body parts that are to be cleansed during daily ablution (hands, arms, face, head and feet), see 56, 443.

You asked

Which arabic word is translated "persons" and what does this exactly mean ?
Which arabic words are translated "lengthen" and "garments" ?
What is the meaning of "lengthen their garments"?

At the bottom of http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/dress-code-women-veil.htm there is a link at the bottom "READ - click to look up verse references" which takes you to www.StudyQuran.org which will enable you to identify every word you wish to study, using http//corpus.quran.com which is linked to on the homepage.

You said

Is haram to go a woman in beach and if no what should be the "dress code" for a woman in beach?

Is the beach public? If so, see http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/dress-code-women-veil.htm for dress-code.

good_logic

Peace Wakas.

Is truthsearcher asking " What should a woman wear when she goes swimming in public?"

The link does not provide any information about "beach" or "Swimming in public" ?

truthsearcher is this what you are asking?
Peace.

truthsearcher

Well, technically anything can be displayed to the family members labeled in the verse, because there is no restriction given in the Qur'an, it just says it's okay to display to family what you would normally hide to non family. So whatever you are comfortable with i guess. I wouldn't recommend going naked in front of your family o but i don't see it forbidden in the Qur'an . And remember, it's bad to forbid what God has not forbidden.
No but his translation certainly isn't a literal word for word translation. It's like he rephrased it. In some cases i think that is acceptable because a word for word translation of Arabic to English often comes out confusing in English, but i don't think it's needed for that verse.

That was my point. According to

And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss.. (Quran 2431)

Now you can say that is not haram (sin) going naked in front of your family (remember except family there are "male servants free of physical needs&quot. You can see clearly that something is wrong there. I'm confused...

@good logic

"Peace Wakas.

Is truthsearcher asking " What should a woman wear when she goes swimming in public?"

The link does not provide any information about "beach" or "Swimming in public" ?

truthsearcher is this what you are asking?
Peace."

Yes this is what im asking and im finding no answer in http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/dress-code-women-veil.htm

unknownuser

Wa Salaams Truthsearcher.

.Which "beauty" they should not display and which "beauty" they should display (how to define "beauty&quot
a) To their father, housband...?
b) To strangers

That is a great question and I actually had it explained to me that "their" is referring to the woman. So I understood it as "her brothers, her fathers, her sons, etc." She is not forbidden to be revealed to men that she cannot marry, so then it makes even more sense, as if she divorced her husband, she could then legally marry his brother, father, etc. For the longest time I would be uncovered whenever my brother in law visited our home, but once I viewed it as I explained above, I began covering even when my step-son and husband's nephews came to visit. Technically, I COULD marry one of them..they are not my blood relatives!

Sorry I don't have any concrete proof for that...I received that from a young woman studying fiqh, and it was on a forum from long ago. I don't know any Arabic either. May Allah forgive me if I have told you anything incorrect.

DaresBears

Now you can say that is not haram (sin) going naked in front of your family (remember except family there are "male servants free of physical needs&quot. You can see clearly that something is wrong there. I'm confused...

It's not necessarily wrong, I wouldn't go fully naked in front of family and most people wouldn't, but it just allows you to, it doesn't command you to and you don't have to. I guess it's on the basis that family members are not attracted to each other, so that a woman who lives with her family doesn't have to be dressed in her public dress all the time, so it probably more applies to dressing casually around your family. There's no need to forbid being fully naked to family since most people aren't going to that anyway and even if someone did while i consider it weird it's not inherently bad because there wouldn't be attraction, probably disgust in fact at their own family. God is very fair, dress modest in public, dress how you like around family, because they won't be attracted to you.

unknownuser

Peace

I wrote a book on this. Here is a basic idea of what is my understanding

There are three verses that will help us grasp what the Quran says about dress code. First one is 726, second is 2431, and the last is 3359.

The first one goes

My own translation O Children of Adam, We have sent down/bestowed/revealed unto you garments, so that you conceal your shame, and as a plumage, and the garment of Taqwa (God cautiousness) - That is the best/is better. This is one of the signs of God that they may remember

This verse outlines that God has given us the knowledge of clothing, He has provided us with cotton, wool etc. so we may cover our shame, and we may look good. However, the clothing God cautiousness is the best.

The second one goes

Translation And say to the believing women to reduce from their gaze, and guard the places between their legs (Furuj), and not reveal/display their Zeenat except for what is apparent of it, and put forth their Khumur over their Juyub, and not reveal/display their Zeenat except to their husbands or fathers or husbands' fathers, or their sons or their husbands' sons, or their brothers or their brothers' sons or sisters' sons, or their women, or who they rightfully possess (I take this to refer to those taken under guardianship), or male helpers without a sexual drive, or children who have no sense of women's shame. And not strike their feet in a way to make known what they conceal/hide from their Zeenat

This verse gives the following orders

Women need to reduce from their gaze, this means, that they need to reduce what they look at, in other words, remove the concept of looking at inappropriate to look at things from their gaze
Women need to guard their Furuj, that specifically refers to an 'Open space', and in a human context, it refers to the place between one's legs. By guard, it can refer to physical guardian, like covering their private parts, and figurative guarding, that is abstaining from lewdness
Deleted from this point by request

unknownuser

Fallen Angel

Wa Salaams. Brilliant...that has to be the most comprehensive explanation of covering that I have ever read. bravo

truthsearcher

"Women need to reduce from their gaze, this means, that they need to reduce what they look at, in other words, remove the concept of looking at inappropriate to look at things from their gaze"

So lower your gaze doesn't mean to low your eyes or head while moving in public places ?

" This is further supported by 860, where God says, that we are supposed to use the best horses we can find to cast terror into the hearts of our enemy...."

That was one of the best explanation that I ever seen

" TIME TO THINK, which parts of a woman specifically move when she strikes her feet on the ground? The answer is obvious, Bosom, Thighs and Buttocks. These parts are what God Himself expects that women would always cover from their Zeenat."

So a woman should not display bosom, thighs and buttocks...Only in public places or always ?

Thanks for answer
Peace

unknownuser

"Women need to reduce from their gaze, this means, that they need to reduce what they look at, in other words, remove the concept of looking at inappropriate to look at things from their gaze"

So lower your gaze doesn't mean to low your eyes or head while moving in public places ?

Unfortunately...eh..no. The word God has used is 'Ghadd', it means 'Lower' and 'Restrain', but not the physical 'Low'. It means lower as in 'Lower the volume', 'Lower the price', get it? So in respect to 'Gaze', I'd go with the understanding that it means to lower the range of the things one looks at. As I don't think God would like it if people fall down the cliff just because they were obeying His law by literally lookking at the ground. Do you?

" This is further supported by 860, where God says, that we are supposed to use the best horses we can find to cast terror into the hearts of our enemy...."

That was one of the best explanation that I ever seen

Thanks

" TIME TO THINK, which parts of a woman specifically move when she strikes her feet on the ground? The answer is obvious, Bosom, Thighs and Buttocks. These parts are what God Himself expects that women would always cover from their Zeenat."

So a woman should not display bosom, thighs and buttocks...Only in public places or always ?

I'd go with public places, that 'Always' was my own word, the Quran says 'Not strike their feet as to make known what they hide from their Zeenat'. Since women may display their Zeenat in front of the people God mentioned , they have to hide it from the rest, that is the public. In front of the mentioned people, a woman does not have to observe any formal rules in matters of dressing, as for a woman's genitals, they maybe only uncovered in front of their husbands. As God doesn't include them in 'Zeenat' and uses the word 'Furuj' for them, which He in 235-6 and another place uses and says that they may only be uncovered in front of one's spouse, that is who they rightfully have a relationship with.

Peace

My answers in bold

unknownuser

Fallen Angel

Wa Salaams. Brilliant...that has to be the most comprehensive explanation of covering that I have ever read. bravo

Thank you for the encouragement.

truthsearcher

1.So practically what is the meaning of "lower their gaze " ?
2. Am I right There are "three kind of beauty"
a) Beauty which can be displayed in public
b) Beauty which can be displayed in front of family
c) Beauty only for husband
Correct me if I'm wrong

And thanks again for answer

unknownuser

1.So practically what is the meaning of "lower their gaze " ?
2. Am I right There are "three kind of beauty"
a) Beauty which can be displayed in public
b) Beauty which can be displayed in front of family
c) Beauty only for husband
Correct me if I'm wrong

And thanks again for answer

Practically reduction of gaze means not looking at inappropriate to look at things. It does not mean keeping your head down 24/7, it means casting down your looks if anything to inappropriate look at comes in front of your eyes or when you look at someone and lust enters your head.
It can also be extended to mean that one should not look at another's property and wealth out of jealousy*
You are right
a) Beauty that excludes Bosom Buttocks Thighs and everything else that is immodest to be revealed - Public Beauty - In my society, face, hands, hair, mid calves to feet, forearms and upper arms as long as shoulders are covered, necks
b) Beauty that is variable - It can be seen by those mentioned. The reason why I say 'Variable' is that it is a mere permission to not be so formal around these people. And what can be seen has been left open probably due to the fact that what a woman will see comfortable to uncover in front of her father is not necessary that what she would feel comfortable to uncover in front of her nephews. Simmilarly what a woman will see comfortable to uncover in front of little children is not necessary that what she will see comfortable to uncover in front of her male attendants/helpers no matter how old or homosexual or sexually disabled they be.
c) Full body beauty along with private parts - Something that can only be seen by their husbands. The reason why I mention private parts outside the fold of beauty has been explained in my last paragraph of my previous reply.

No need to thank me, thank God who I trust to be my guide. Don't follow me, but follow God. I'm just a mere human who hopes to be guided by the Lord God. I am not the one to correct, but it is He who corrected me, I pray that whatever I say is what He wants me to say and not what the misguided would say.

*This interpretation of not looking others' properties is coming from a Sunni site. I don't really agree with them but I kind of liked this interpretation so I included it.

unknownuser

Deleted by Request

Mazhar

My own translation O Children of Adam, We have sent down/bestowed/revealed unto you garments, so that you conceal your shame, and as a plumage, and the garment of Taqwa (God cautiousness) - That is the best/is better. This is one of the signs of God that they may remember

Good effort. However, care should be taken to associate the Verb with its Subject and not with others. Its subject is not "you" but Dress, and its Object is . The Verbal sentence is for dress the adjectival description-describing its pecularities.

"O You the posterity of Adam! We have indeed sent for you dress-clothing that covers-hides-conceals-secludes your bodies-contours, and additionally serves as integumentary/feathers like protection ."

is wrongly taken as "shame" or genitalia. Please see its recurrence where the brother is facing problem regarding burrial of the body of his brother.

Also read in conjunction 2547 and 7810 which will indicate the purpose of dress--it must blur-veil the contours of the body as happens when neight veils.

The bosoms of a woman-which are surfaced above the chest-ground are self evident even wearing dress. To make their contours and appearance blurred, a seperate unstiched sheet is asked to be placed on chests. The air coming in beween the chest clothes and extra sheet will blurr-veil the otherwise naturally emerged bossoms. Bossoms are the Zeenat. Zeenat refers only to such thing which has attraction for others.

unknownuser

Good effort. However, care should be taken to associate the Verb with its Subject and not with others. Its subject is not "you" but Dress, and its Object is . The Verbal sentence is for dress the adjectival description-describing its pecularities.

"O You the posterity of Adam! We have indeed sent for you dress-clothing that covers-hides-conceals-secludes your bodies-contours, and additionally serves as integumentary/feathers like protection ."

is wrongly taken as "shame" or genitalia. Please see its recurrence where the brother is facing problem regarding burrial of the body of his brother.

Also read in conjunction 2547 and 7810 which will indicate the purpose of dress--it must blur-veil the contours of the body as happens when neight veils.

The bosoms of a woman-which are surfaced above the chest-ground are self evident even wearing dress. To make their contours and appearance blurred, a seperate unstiched sheet is asked to be placed on chests. The air coming in beween the chest clothes and extra sheet will blurr-veil the otherwise naturally emerged bossoms. Bossoms are the Zeenat. Zeenat refers only to such thing which has attraction for others.

Ah, I see, thank you for the clarification of 726. As for 'Sauatikum', I read the brother incident, and classical Arabic dictionaries, it gives the impression that it refers to nakedness or body in general. And thanks for 2547 and 7810, I never realized that these two verses existed. Lemme re translate the verse

O Children of Adam, We have bestowed upon you raiment/clothing, it conceals your body, and it feathers (That can be used for beautification and protection)

truthsearcher

Wel... I have no more troubble understanding verse 726. Also I read carefully 860 and 3359 and I saw quranic logic. So I realized that Jilbab is talking about something that make a woman look respectable when she dress it. But what about "lower their gaze". If I say that it means you should low your head and your eyes while moving in public places - is there any argument from quran that doesn't approve it. Please don't tell me your Fatwa because if I would be interested in listening Fatwa I could ask a schoolar. I think that Quran ends when we start to check for hadiths or when we start to say our own comment (like you are saying) about Quran's verses and our comment doesn't have support from other Quran's verses but from own logic. So you can never say that your logic is better than a hadithist or scholar logic. And this create subjectivism while judging with the Law of God and in the Law of God there is no subjectivism.

It doesn't matter to me if you are quranist or hadithist when you give your own fatwa based on your own logic about one verse in quran. And if God says "lower their gaze" who can say that it doesn't mean to look down 24/7 ? If God say so we should respect it. According to "lower their gaze" we can have two results Those who think that "lower their gaze" means eyes down or physical meaning 24/7 and those who think that "lower their gaze" has a figuratively meaning (like you said for example "jealousy&quot. So if word "lower" in arabic (in this verse) is a word used for figuratively meaning which is the other word used for physical meaning of "low"? And if there are no other words how do you know that it is used for figuratively meaning - according to which verse (im not asking your own logic)?

And now I have few questions about (Quran 2431)

And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss..

Some Woman have an attractive face. So if I say that they should not display their face in public but only in front of family - which is the verse that make me know that I'm wrong (not your own logic - I'm asking for argument from Quran) or which is arabic word that make me know that Im wrong ?

Peace