Shahr/month in the light of the quran
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Salaams idolfree,
can you imagine Allah creating the moon for timing the Haj - this really blows me.The moon has been around billions of years ,before men i think ,and just think how many other moons are in the solar system???And may be marie and other guys think them may be for Haj as well,(just a silly joke).In translations a person can use ,if you was prificient, a given number of words to mean exactly the same meaning to the translation - I am not as proficient in the word usage but By god i may not be proficient but can see clearly ,usualy, the picture behind the context to an extent.
Which anyways most people can also , but may be some less then others.
Salaams.
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I think i do need may be to give you just a little lesson , a non arab to an arab lady.
Wa =And/Also/But/Whilst/At/Together/WHITH/ e.t.c and check the dictionary you may have dear and see how deceptive people like to be just so they may be right/mighty in front of others -not me.
Peace mz357
After examining your posts I see that neither Arabic nor English is your mother tongue or a language that you have mastered. My guess is that your origin is Pakistani (judging by your phrasing and errors).
Let me give you a lesson on Wa, and With.
Did you know "With" is a multiple meaning word - well over 30 different meanings. One of them being "And" shock shock .
For example
"burhan and benny wrote a book"
maybe written as
"burhan, with benny wrote a book" or
"burhan wrote a book with benny"It's for that reason that "with" is listed as a translation for Wa in some Arabic/English dictionaries.
In other words "Wa" can be translated as "With" as long as the meaning of "With" is understood to be "And".
To use "With" in the sense you did, Arabic has "Ba" as in Bismillah etc.
Also note that they are translations only, to understand truly what an arabic word means you have look in arabic lexicons and literature. You have to learn the grammar rules and apply them.
Not being an expert doesn't mean you are not entitled to a view or an opinion. It just means that you will look like a fool when you pretend to know something you don't.
Take care. wink
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Peace all,
some meanings for AHL
AHL Family
AHL be qualified for a grade or a job, to have enough qualifications for something.
AHLAN welcome
AHLOO ASHAYE? owners of something.Like in People of the book, or more precisly "those able(qualified) to writing".??
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Salaams burhan,
Thankyou! Your a master in arabic and may be english as well as no dought ,it seems only the arabs can have the arabic and english as their mother lingoes,i still see that it fits in my perception of the meaning of the sentance though as i saw.
No disrespects meant.Thanks.
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Salam mz,
Wa =And/Also/But/Whilst/At/Together/WHITH/ e.t.c and check the dictionary you may have dear and see how deceptive people like to be just so they may be right/mighty in front of others -not me.
The quran in arabic language is my only reference and I trust any dictionnary and lexicons. A perfect translation does not exist.
Allah is my only teacher and His perfect words are sufficient for me. my responses I find them in the quran itself. I need not no exterior source to explain it; it explains itself, all prise to Allah.
To you is your method, and to me is mine.
I leave you with peace
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Salaams marie,
Yes you are right to you be yours but me i always like to see other peoples views,it helps.And no the quran alone doesn't solve it ,each person has only a certain amounts of intellect to understand and percieve and even using lxicons you are looking into words /perceptions of/ into meanings,it will help for us to see a problem from many angles and thus be able to find better solutions.
Thanks and peace.
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Peace all,
"shahr/month" = a full-moon cycle is not supported by the quran.
When Allah speaks about the sun, it is a full sun and not a partial sun, in the same way for the moon (alqamar) which is a full moon and not a partial moon.
The full moon/alqamar in the light of the quran through stages becomes a crescent (3639).Allah speaks only about hilal/new moon as a mechanism timing for people and for Alhajj.
Alaqamar/the full moon and Hilal/new moon are not interchangeables but supplementary.
In arabic, the verb Halla / halla(n) means appear, to show itself to the horizon, begin.
- Initiator of morning and Maker of the night to reside in; and the sun and the moon for counting. Such is the measure of the Noble, the Knowledgeable.
2189 brings an additional information to 696, Allah specifies at which phase of the moon is a timing mechanism for the people and for the
- They ask you regarding the new moons/alahillat, Say ?They are a timing mechanism for the people and for the alhajj.? And piety is not that you would enter a home from its back, but piety is whomever is righteous and come to the homes from their main doors. And be aware of God that you may succeed.
The word "Hallatu(n)" means first rain
and
Hallatu alqamar (the moon) means the beginning of the moonAllah knows best
Peace
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Salaam to you.
it seems only the arabs can have the arabic and english as their mother lingoes
Anyone can learn arabic or english if they work hard and make an effort to learn it. I know plenty of people here who spend time learning and improving their language skills and you can see their hard work clearly.
i still see that it fits in my perception of the meaning of the sentance though as i saw.
In other words you will redfine english and arabic words as you see fit.
You will accpet falsehood even after you have seen the truth.No disrespects meant.
You should be worried about disrespecting God more. Don't you feel anything when you speak without knowledge.
What you do is far worse than hadith books.
You have arrived on the path to changing God's words by deception.
It's only small trivial things now but the seeds have been planted for greater distortion. I see a new science of word manipulation being born.This is not so different of the path christians took when they translated God as "I am", and thus when Jesus said, "God is your lord" they changed it to "I am your Lord".
This is such a sad for me to see. cry
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Salaams burhan,
sorry to say you are thinking that way as i don't aim to disrespect anyone ,especially God.But Br. look at your own history who has manipulated the peoples of this world ,frankly you and people like you should be shamsful .Mistranslating the quran and trying your level best to keep it that way ; you are responsible for your actions,but i wouldn't be heathen a follower of such i rather be dead.But whilst i am living i rather do my level best for Allah whether your kind like it or otherwise.Thanks.
And Br. you don't know my education level and i don't want to mention and look proud.Fear god.
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salams all,
fancy meeting you again mz357. you know this discussion is becoming painful to watch, and now are you beginning to have the gall to claim others are mistranslating the Quran?? Did i hear that right?
Aren't you the one who just a short while ago was claiming khinzeer doesn't mean pig? And despite my numerous efforts to convince you that you cannot break an arabic word into 2 roots, you were adamant and did not learn? And on top of it were also spelling Arabic words incorrectly?
Let me show you AGAIN how you commit yet another spelling mistake and start truly MIStranslating the Quran, and then trying to "guide" others and trying to "shame" them.
AHL and HALLA are TOTALLY separate roots. Yes hamza-ha-lam is a root that relates to a group of people, like ahl-al-kitaab. But ha-lam-LAM (two lams) is a TOTALLY different root with TOTALLY different derivative words like hilaal the PLURAL of which is ahilla (this is clearly stated in the lexicons but perhaps not in QD).
You can't just drop a lam and then start mistranslating the word and the verse to whatever meanings you want. You CLEARLY do need to spend a little more time learning basic Arabic for the sake of the Quran, as do we all... but you especially since you are jumping to conclusions without the proper knowledge AND when people try to confront you with the proper knowledge you refuse.
As far as moon-worship goes, Muslims no more worship the moon than Westerners worship the sun. Muslims happen to follow a lunar calendar, which comes into religious use for certain things such as timing of ramadan, hajj. That's all.
wassalam
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Salaam to you,
I hate it when a traditionalist comes along and tries convincing people here that the quran has not been tampered with ,That is mistranslated to you such a guy i cannot and am not prepared to waste my invaluable time with , because its incredibly the joke of this centuary and the most heinous claim existing in this world - the results are prevalent in your traditionalistic islamic countries.
May Allah bless me/ shuaib/all of us to see his real quran and may he give us the taufeeq to establish it.
God Bless all.
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what not that again!
I can't convince you ,but i now for a fact ,if you want to make a road,building or anything you don't have to become a civil engineer just get someone who knows the job.
Same if you want to know meanings of arabic words or of any lingo just get a translator/s and is as effective.
So Br. ,lets see how competent you have become in life - Salaams.
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- That was a nation that has passed away; to them is what they have earned, and to you is what you have earned; and you will not be asked regarding what they did.
Tilka ommatun qad khalat laha makasabat walakum ma kasabtum wala tus-aloona AAammakano yaAAmaloona
- Whoever is guided is guided for himself, and whoever is misguided is for his own loss. And no person shall carry the load of another, and We were not to punish until We send a messenger.
Mani ihtada fa-innama yahtadeelinafsihi waman dalla fa-innama yadilluAAalayha wala taziru waziratun wizra okhrawama kunna muAAaththibeena hattanabAAatha rasoolan
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Peace be upon you MZ,
can you imagine Allah creating the moon for timing the Haj - this really blows me.The moon has been around billions of years ,before men i think ,and just think how many other moons are in the solar system???
Why is that hard to imagine when the God says He has subjected all things in the skies and earth?
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As far as moon-worship goes, Muslims no more worship the moon than Westerners worship the sun. Muslims happen to follow a lunar calendar, which comes into religious use for certain things such as timing of ramadan, hajj. That's all.
Well they do worship the sun, but they just don?t know it.
God has not decreed a lunar calendar.Peace,
The so-called muslims have a problem with the word NOTHING in whatever language they are speaking. Associate/join/compare nothing with God, no holy months, no holy places, not the moon or the sunrise or any other physical manifestations of this world. He has not prescribed any symbolic rituals. When God enjoins a thing for mankind, it is for our benefit and when we do this thing, we serve FOR Him and He tells us why and the reason will be clear for those who use their sense. What does God tell us we do as a service for mankind or ourselves when we ?fast? during a (predetermined) holy month? What does God tell us we do as a service when we make a ritualistic pilgrimage (predetermined time & place)? When there is a challenge we can calculate using the moon, sun, stars and big a frigging telescope, from that time which are the forbidden months which He has decreed are 4 of 12. Decreeing 12 leaves no room for misunderstandings, that?s easy if you use your sense. They are not predetermined. It would be funny if it wasn?t so sad, watching the idolaters wait for the muslims while they argue among themselves about who saw the new moon to know if the forbidden months are over to fight. Maybe they will use the time to figure out how to send them to the moon. Will you not think?
A ?fast? of expiation serves a purpose when you allow yourself to admit that it?s not piety. Do not clothe the truth with falsehood. Do not be like those who called themselves ?Guided/Jews? but were not satisfied with clear, simple and easy instructions.
Deen al Islam is not a religion. If you can use that word, you haven?t gotten the picture.
God is the guide. Mz can?t guide, I can?t guide and neither can all the Arabic lessons on earth. Allow yourself to be guided by God through His forces, not by Arabic grammar or a dictionary or history or big egos. Use your sense that He gave you. Snap out of it!
BTW I am never embarrassed by being wrong. Who among us is always right besides those who think they know it ALL.
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Peace be upon you,
Woaw! Did a fight break out in here? Take it outside gentlemen!
Lets get back to a peaceful debate.
Marie, that was a pretty good argument (post before last).
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Salam brother Shuaib, all,
SCIENTIFIC
Up to this point, we both assumed a linear progression and the discussion was whether or not we could pick up a 7% difference in the full moon or 85% symmetry (50% on one side and 43% on the other side).
However, if you examine br David's link, not just the pretty pictures but the data of PERCENTAGE illumination, you will find that the day before and after full illumination there is at most a 3% different (94 % symmetry) and very often only a 1% difference (99% symmetry). Surely you don't claim that you can tell if something is 99% versus 100% symmetric?
I wanted to wait until I test the ability to discern if the moon is full or not before I reply. Last night (the 26th), the moon was visible despite some scattered clouds. By looking carefully at the moon for a couple of minutes, I was able to make out that it was not perfectly symmetric and hence not a full moon. I am hoping that others here tried the same experiment.
Unlike the full-moon this time of the year, the full moon of scorching heat/"ramadhan" occurs right after the summer solstice when the sun is at its highest point and the days are longest.
Now a very interesting point that brother Kyle (idolfree1) brought out is that the full moon that occurs close to the summer solstice is special because it follows the lowest path across the sky of all of the year's full moons. Hence, it is DIRECTLY in the line of sight of the observer and can be easily seen without even having to look up. Interestingly, for some reason the human brain perceives that such moon is larger than regular moons. Brother Shuaib might respond by saying that this is a coincidence but I don't think that this is a coincidence and I think that there is a message there.
Well I didn't refer to the Quran though did i? The discussion was whether or not the hilaal began the month.
If I wanted to know when any month begins, I can look at a calendar and I don't need to discuss anything here. Hence, this discussion is not about months or any calendar. It is about the timing for the abstension according to the GREAT READING/QURAN.
Now, as I said and as you agreed to, it does not specifically say in the lexicographal entry on shahr, that shahr refers to full moon. You do claim that the nuances suggest full moon.
However, in the SAME lexicon, if you check under the heading of hilaal, you find that the Arabs themselves felt that the HILAAL denotes the beginning of the shahr, and that was the purpose of my reference. That is why the hilaal is called the hilaal. It's linguistic evidence of what the month begins with.
It is not about how certain people "felt". It is about the consistent and coherent facts. Do the Lexicons claim to contain no contradictions?
As I said before, one must verify things many different ways. You seem to want a ready made answer. Think of putting a puzzle together. ALL the pieces have to fit. The most important piece that validates all the other pieces is the great reading. Verse 2185 talks about WITNESSING "al-shahr" NOT "al-hilal". So we use the following
- The great reading.
- Our own life experience (For example, seeing the full moon even on cloudy nights but hardly ever seeing the new moon even in ideal viewing conditions).
- The creator's design of the heavens and the earth that made the full moon of scorching heat much easier to see than any other full moon.
- Physical archeological evidence.
- Lastly, linguistic evidence from dictionaries where etymology and context are taken into account.
The best interpretation has the great reading as the criterion and reconciles all of the above accordingly.
BUT, as you underline and now I understand what you meant to imply, taareekh is the common word for history BUT very uncommonly (according to the lexicons) the word used is tAWreekh, with waw instead of hamza.. from this obviously you can also get the word warrakha instead of arrakha.
The lexicons claim that this is a peculiarity in the language that arises from a small minority changing the hamza for a waw when it comes to those particular words.
For you to pretend that it's a common sense conclusion and that this means warkh simply refers to month and is totally interchangeable to arkh is a gross oversimplification at best and misleading at worst. I did not comprehend that THIS is what you were trying to use to justify your meanings, and frankly it is a great stretch to claim that this implies warkh is used in Arabic to denote month. The meaning of warkh is clearly completely different and tawreekh is mentioned as a peculiarity of the language.
This is not about what is common or uncommon. If it is used even ONCE then it is a possible meaning. The inscription in the Southern Arabic dialect leaves no doubt that "warkh" at the time of the prophet meant "month" for Southern Arabs. The etymology from the dictionary confirms the inscription because according to dictionaries the meaning of "warkh" has to do with specifying a date. How do we specify dates? By using calendars that are composed of MONTHS. Again, please keep in mind that we are trying to put a puzzle together that has been affected by 1400 years of distortion. The answer will not be easy and it will not be presented to you on a silver platter by a dictionary. You have to look at ALL the evidence together intelligently and then make a conclusion.
Well, in my grammar book nahwa-al-wafi it describes this noon so apparently it's already established, but obviously in opposite usage compared to OSA.
Arabic grammar was first established by a Persian named Sibawah in the 9th century, long after OSA faded.
Rahman doesn't mean almighty, and merciful/compassionate meanings are completely unwarranted if you look at the lexicons, and as far as i can tell was taken from christians.
What do you think Rahman means if not Almighty and based on what?
Ok well finally, I do have ask if you take shahr to strictly mean full moon, then do you take 2185 to mean to only fast on the night of the full moon? Obviously you must intend by full-moon the month indicated by the moon.
At this stage, I take "shahr" to mean full-moon cycle.
The only way I am aware of that Allah has indicated months or amount of time shorter than a year is by shahr (warkh is not in the Quran in any form). Whether it was ramadan/fasting, the sacred months not to fight, or 936 where Allah explains there are 12 shahr in one year, and even 3412 where to translate shahr strictly as full-moon would lead to an absurd meaning (it's stride was a full-moon).
The God NEVER indicates months in the great reading. He uses natural cosmic phenonmena to serve as time markers so that people know the timing of the abstinance and the restricted full-moon cycles regardless of what man-made calendars anybody uses
Anyway, I don't mean to try your patience by this reply and I do respect your beliefs/thoughts. Hopefully we will be on the same side of the fence more often on other topics.
We are all on the same side of the fence when we are all serving the Truth.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman.
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Peace sister Marie,
If we believe that the month of ramadhan is one of the four restricted month, then the verse 2189 is clear, the new moons are a timing mechanism for the people and not full moon.
The new moons are timing mechanisms and so is the stop watch. Do we determine when "ramadan"/scorching heat starts based on a stop watch?
Clearly not.
Here the occurences of the word alqamara/the moon 677, 96, 754, 124, 132, 1433, 1612, 2133, 2218, 2961, 3129, 3513, 3639.
In all those verses, "qamar" simply means moon. A moon/"qamar" could appear as either full moon/"shahr" or new moon/"hilal" or anything in between.
Allah often speaks about the sun and the moon at the same time. I think the word 'alqamar' represents the full moon which appears in stages until it returns to being like an old curved sheath/date-stalk;it is a logical evolution
- Full moon----> 2)manazil (stages)----> 3)crescent like an old curved sheath.
- And the moon We have measured it to appear in stages, until it returns to being like an old curved sheath.
So if there is a partial or full solar eclipse, does the sun cease to exist?
In fact, if you read 3639 carefully in the translation that you quoted, you will see that it refers to none other than the moon/"al-qamar". Hence, it is "al-qamar" that appears in stages (i.e. not as a full moon). This completely demolishes the argument that "alqamar" is ONLY the full-moon. If you read further in 3639, you will see that it is none other than the moon/"alqamar" that looks like an "old curved sheath". Hence, even as an "old curved sheath", it is still "alqamar"/the moon and it refers back to "alqamar". The grammar of the Arabic original of 3639 makes this fact even clearer so please read it patiently.
I hope that this helps in clarifying any confusion.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman