Why cant we scientifically prove god?
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I agree with you JewishDude,
and I also think, that apart from the limitations of our 5 senses, there is also a lack of cooperation between our conscience and some parts of our perception.
I mean there might be also some perception which is not covered with our conscience. -
I agree with you JewishDude,
and I also think, that apart from the limitations of our 5 senses, there is also a lack of cooperation between our conscience and some parts of our perception.
I mean there might be also some perception which is not covered with our conscience.The heart
Peace
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Yes, simple, from the nature surround you if you ask him proof he'll give you proof. I asked him for proof, suddenly i thought simply only about numbers.., but from there my faith about God existence is unbreakable.
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Thinking about proving God... it is often a thing a disbeliever would talk about being engaged in, coz he/she doesn't believe. Scientific proof are not needed to a believer... only to a person who thinks science of today is above all... sort of the religion of science.
I think we cannot prove God thru science partly because we have the wrong idea of what God is. What are we looking for? Some dude in the sky? Some other poster said that the quran seems to talk about that everyone and everything already knows God (or whatever word we should use not to get into a wrong idea)... and then goes on saying and putting emphasis on that God is one. So the quran is not mainly talking about the existance of God, but rather its oneness and how accurate our belief is. I really liked this observation, and I'm sure there are more great posts in the thread, but I really haven't gone thru the thread.
I think that it is not about to prove or fail to prove, rather everything is in plain view already... but it is WE how cannot see what is in front of us. Our vision is clouded. All creatures know their creator intimately, except for us poor human beings... coz we have minds... and our minds f**k it all up for us, as long as we are blinded by it. So the issue is not to find a single proof for all, but instead for each and every single person to clear one's own vision. Quite a different thing I must say. We are looking in the wrong place, as usual. We are looking outside, whether physically or philosophically/logically, when we should be looking inside ourselves. There are ways to do this, but little do people know. People serve the sect of science, which should be no more than a tool through which the mind handles everyday life. When did science become religion? When did it become a criterion for things it cannot handle, see or grasp?
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Peace all.
Is this not Science? Some might say where is the proof?
( GOD? Designer of the universe? Surely HE will leave some kind of proof? Sign?)
( Phi, ? constant- = 1.61803? is the creator s signature on all HIS designs i.e The golden ratio? Science has proved ? See Dr Steven Markout 25 year study- that the relative ratio 1.61803? relates to all created structure of our universe. Also the sequence 0,1,1,2,3,5,8,? ? The work of Fibonacci, also called the sequence of nature, has a connection with the golden ratio ? See science research on flowers, spirals, DNA, etc?- The golden ratio and Fibonacci sequence permeates throughout the universe in both organic and inorganic worlds and at all scales and levels to such a degree that the probability of this being chance/ coincidence is virtually impossible. Hence a Designer, Creator exist.
What is even more interesting is the connection of the natural sequence 0,1,1,2,3,5,8,? with 19 ? 19 is a special number that this Designer/ Creator uses as part of the code ? Remember the emphasis on ONE GOD- Well 19 is the geometrical value- number value- of ONE in most languages, Hebrew, Aramaic, Arabic etc..( check it, Google it.. ) Here is a table showing this connection
Sequence Sequence in reverse Answer
0 + 2584 = 2584 /19= (divided by 19)= 136
1 ? 1597 = -1596 /19= -84
1 + 987 = 988 /19 52
2 ? 610 = ? 608 /19= -32
3 + 377 = 380 /19 = 20
5 ? 233 = -228 /19 = -12
8 + 144 = 152 /19= 8
13 - 89 = -76 /19 = -4
21 + 55 = 76 /19 = 4
34 - 34 = 0 /19 0
55 + 21 = 76 /19= 4
89 ? 13 = 76 /19= 4
144 + 8 = 152 /19= 8
233 ? 5 = 228 /19= 12
377 + 3 = 380 /19 = 20
610 - 2 = 608 /19 = 32
987 + 1 = 988 /19 = 52
1597 - 1 = 1596 /19= 84
2584 + 0 = 2584 /19= 136.
( Notes. The sequence tends to 1.61803? Hence adding and taking away. Number 2584 is the 19th term of the sequence ( a coincidence?) also 2+5+8+4 = 19 !( another coincidence?) 2584 is the first number in the sequence divisible by 19, 19 x 136 = 2584 ! ( and yet another coincidence? also after this if you continue the pattern, every answer is divisible by 19 !)
3027 .. HE is the one who initiates the creation ( First creation before the heavenly feud?), then repeats it ( creation for the last chance- the test!-?); This is even easier for HIM ( to summon you on the day of judgement?). To him belongs the most similitude ( all the symmetry you see) in the heavens and the earth. HE is the ALMIGHTY, the Most WISE.?
( Look at the connection of the sequence and 19, especially 34-34 =0 -There is a symmetry from that initial point,up and down looking at the answers when we divided by 19! .Is GOD drawing the attention to it? Note this verse 3027 30 + 27 = 57 ( 19 x 3 = 57 !) also more importantly this verse is the 3434 th verse from the beginning of this scripture. Let s add all the verses from chapter 1 up to chapter 3027 (up to this verse) 7 + 286+ 200+176+120+165+206+75+127+109+123
+111+43+
52+99
+128+111+110+98+135+112
+78+118+64+77+227+93+88+69+27 = 3434 !) ( Yet another coincidence?)
61 Praise be to GOD who created the heavens and the earth and made darkness and light. Yet those who disbelieve in their Lord continue to deviate.?
Peace.
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Here is an excellent information of scientific proofs of the Torah and sientific possibility of proving God
http//www.divineinformation.com/featured-videos/torah-and-science-2/
http//www.divineinformation.com/videos-english/torah-and-science-part-2/
http//www.divineinformation.com/videos-english/torah-and-science-part-3/and general issues
http//www.divineinformation.com/videos-english/general-issues-2/
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Depends on how much proof you want, really, doesn't it?
I mean, if you look at the Qur'an, you can instantly recall events in your life or situations and feelings you've experienced that Allah has already put forward (some 1400 years before you were even born) as an example.
Science is covered in the scripture, to an extent, but it isn't really a pillar of belief, because when the reality reciprocates the Qur'an and vice versa, is there need for flawed human 'proof'? -
So the issue is not to find a single proof for all, but instead for each and every single person to clear one's own vision. Quite a different thing I must say. We are looking in the wrong place, as usual. We are looking outside, whether physically or philosophically/logically, when we should be looking inside ourselves.
Exactly! The ONLY thing you need to do is clear your vision. You can't see light through dark tinted eyes.
The problem with trying to prove God from the external is that God is the most subtle of subtlety. Because God is flawless, a single incorrect perception about reality is enough to lead you astray. The only way to recognise perfection is to clear your sight and see all the information without your desires clouding it.
All these paradoxes, the problem of evil, etc, have a resolution when you know the full data. But name a single disbeliever who will accept the narrative of Satan's turning back. To them it's a made up story. How when you hold a preconception that this is false, can you then accept the rest of reality? You can't ever have the whole truth if you intentionally miss out a part of it. And only by rejecting this narrative does the 'problem of evil' have any credence.
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To even start an attempt at proving God, we first need to know what God is...
Precisely. God cannot be approached scientifically without first defining God.
If you define God as the God of the Qur'an. As the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob then you must then answer the question if God is perceivable in reality.
Science proves things that are measurable, observable, and testable. If the God you define is not measurable, observable, and testable, then it can never be proven or disproven scientifically.
Is your God able to be observed or perceived in any way? Does He intervene in human affairs or with the natural laws in any way? Does He perform any actions on this plane of existence that we can first observe, and secondly, attribute to Him?
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I'll just say like this, according to my current view.
That which people commonly refer to as God cannot be understood by the mind and its thoughts and reasoning. It has to be felt and experienced. And I'm not talking about emotions. Emotions are just thoughts, conscious or not, coming from the mind. We will never be able to figure out God. Science will never prove God, or measure it, because science deal with the physical existence, and science and mind go hand in had. They will never find God.
I don't blame people for rejecting the idea of an "abrahamitic" god... as I myself find it rather off the mark. People try to understand God, but you can't do that... so naturally the religions become fairy tales of the physical world.
God (in lack of a better word) is not a 'He'. God doesn't intervene as in sitting waiting and then taking action when needed. That is such a materialistic and physical way of seeing it. God is not an object, or person, or spirit. God is not separate. It is our awareness that is separate from God, but God is inside us all, and all of creation. Our mind (which is part of this physical world) cannot grasp and figure out God. Of course people will reject the existence of God when they desperately try to find it using the mind and science, failing to find what they look for. They look for the wrong thing in the wrong place. It is not a thing away way, and it is everywhere... but even if you see it as a spirit or energy permeating everything, you are still limiting God and making it into something it is not. Even this understanding is physical and limited to the world of our minds.
Let's not trying to figure out God. It cannot be done. One must know God, not trying to understand it. Actually, I used very wrong words when saying 'define'. We can of course not define God. My mistake.
Cheers
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salam
We will never proove the existence of God because, i think, he don't want to
To be a believer is to believe in God without seeing him
594 O you who believe, God will test you with some of the game for hunting coming within reach of your hands and your spears, so that God will know who reverences Him while unseen. Whoever transgresses from now on, then he will have a painful retribution
1961 Gardens of delight; that the Almighty had promised His servants in the unseen. His promise must come to pass.
2149 Those who fear their Lord in "without seeing him", and who hold the Hour (of Judgment) in awe.
3518 And none can carry the load of another; and even if it calls on another to bear part of its load, no other can carry any part of it, even if they were related. You will only be able to warn those who are concerned towards their Lord while unseen, ....
3611 You can only warn him who follows the Reminder, and is concerned towards the Almighty while unseen. Give him good news of forgiveness and a generous reward.
5033 Who is concerned towards the Almighty while unseen, and came with a repenting heart
6712 As for those who are concerned towards their Lord while unseen, they have attained forgiveness and a great reward.In fact, even if i am not a Rashad khalifa follower, the idea that humans took part in a rebellion against the power of God has many arguments
3869 "I had no knowledge of the command up high, that they had quarreled."
672 The One who has created death and life, that He may test you, which of you will do better works? He is the Noble, the Forgiving.
7172 And your Lord took for the children of Adam from their backs, their progeny; and He made them witness over themselves "Am I not your Lord?" They said "Yes, we bear witness." Thus you cannot say on the Day of Resurrection that you were unaware of this.
3372 We have offered the trust to the heavens and the earth, and the mountains, but they refused to bear it, and were fearful of it. But man accepted it; he was transgressing, ignorant.
5156 I did not create the Jinn and mankind except to serve Me.
7179 And We have given to Hell many of the Jinn and mankind; they had hearts with which they did not understand, and they had eyes with which they did not see, and they had ears with which they did not hear. They are like livestock; no, they are even more astray. These are the unaware ones.So believing in GOD without seeing him or having a scientifc proof is central in faith.
However there numerous signs but never an incontestable proof.believing in GOD without seeing is "the contract" we made with GOD to obtain redemption and his forgiveness
Live is only a test were we tested on only one matter "to believe in Godn only one God, and do good thing in his name".
2175 These are the ones who have purchased straying with guidance, and retribution for forgiveness; they have no patience towards the Fire.If an incontestable proof existed, there would be no merit in believing
I think that this issue is so central in islam that it is the real meaning of the famous Rahman and Rahim
Rahim is the forgiver
Rahman is the powerful God that already expelled us from his Rahma.Salaam
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Peace!,
Personally I don't think faith, as in blind faith, is very reasonable... because you never know how accurate or astray that faith is.
I think that it has nothing to do with whether or not G-d wants us to be able to prove its existence scientifically or not... it is not like a chap (God) has decided for or against the proveability when creating everything. The impossibility of science to prove G-d lies in the very nature of science and all reality. I believe it is like when atheists ask whether God would be able to create a stone so heavy that even "He" cannot lift it, or whether God can delete "himself". These questions are not logical, clever or wise... they are impossible. They would only make sense a bit if you have a rather materialistic, limited and "scientific" image of God.This is my take on it atleast.
Cheers!
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Peace,
Why cant we scientifically prove god?
God is outside of science, God created science There is no encompassing God.There is only our relationship/dependecy on God. God has no need of us!
021.023
La yus-alu AAamma yafAAalu wahum yus-aloona
YUSUFALI He cannot be questioned for His acts, but they will be questioned (for theirs).
PICKTHAL He will not be questioned as to that which He doeth, but they will be questioned.
SHAKIR He cannot be questioned concerning what He does and they shall be questioned.
KHALIFA He is never to be asked about anything He does, while all others are questioned.Nontheless let's entertain the question.
If we prove the existence of God imperically, that would nullify the testAre they waiting until GOD Himself comes to them in dense clouds, together with the angels? When this happens, the whole matter will be terminated, and to GOD everything will be returned.
Those who possess no knowledge say, "If only GOD could speak to us, or some miracle could come to us!" Others before them have uttered similar utterances; their minds are similar. We do manifest the miracles for those who have attained certainty.
Some of us have been blessed with certainity while others need more proof while still others
have been blocked out altogetherWe showed Abraham the marvels of the heavens and the earth, and blessed him with certainty.
Are they waiting for the angels to come to them, or your Lord, or some physical manifestations of your Lord? The day this happens, no soul will benefit from believing if it did not believe before that, and did not reap the benefits of belief by leading a righteous life.* Say, "Keep on waiting; we too are waiting."
It does not matter to some if it were possible for science to prove the existence of God,
they would just think that science has betrayed or tricked them!They said, "No matter what kind of sign you show us, to dupe us with your magic, we will not believe."
The people of the scripture challenge you to bring down to them a book from the sky! They have asked Moses for more than that, saying, "Show us GOD, physically." Consequently, the lightning struck them, as a consequence of their audacity. Additionally, they worshiped the calf, after all the miracles they had seen. Yet, we pardoned all this. We supported Moses with profound miracles.
Peace O0
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Peace all.
For those who believe there is proof. They will attain certainty about GOD and HIS message.
For those that do not believe there is no proof.
As simple as that.
Peace.
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Why do we have a word explaining religion and god faith?
We also have a tool, just like a hammer is a tool, called science, which is responsible exclusively to observe, measure, experiment with, test and explain the natural environment we live in. Science in no way addresses or is in any way concerned with the super-natural.
Science is based on facts and reality, religion is not. To believe a god exists and test people requires faith, science requires anything but.Even after studying Islam for so long and living with Muslims on a daily basis, somehow I think I will never understand the obsession and common misunderstanding of science.
Those who believe and those who don't will have the ultimate proof - when they die. Why can't we all just wait until then and get along here on Earth in the meantime?
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The reason we cannot get along here meanwhile, has nothing to with religion. It has to do with the minds of human beings. Religion is just one of many reasons for not getting along, but it is a very large reason, simply because people invest lots and lots of identity into their religion (more than in nationality or sport team).
When you invest identity into religion, it means religion is part of your identity, and of course people get emotional when their identity gets questioned in different ways. People usually also never tend to question things they derive their identity from... so naturally we are up for trouble. The mind will furiously defend its identity, no matter what, but we almost never see this... the mechanics of the mind. -
Yes, science deals with theories, trial n error, reasoning, logic etc in systematic and structured ways. But to say that science is based on facts and reality is ignorant (sorry) and shows we don't understand what science is. Science attempts to find facts and reality. It is a systematic tool to get to facts and reality, but it is just a tool. And the tool is only as good as the people who use it. Science is not a living being who spits out information that is true! Someone has to use the tool of science, which is just an approach to understand the surrounding world. So whatever someone finds, after using scientific methods, can be true or false. Let's not make science an infallible religion. People have already done that with religion, and the results are anything but enlightening or freeing.
Please do not equate science with truth and reality, and religion with the opposite. This is just simplistic. Reality is reality whatever science or religion says. Science and religion is only as good as the sincerity of those who practise them. If religion shows itself to be rigid, ignorant and non-advancing, then so be it. Many things the religions say may then be taken as fairy tales, especially if they go against science. But science is also not exact. It's theories change, and science certainly doesn't know it all. Science can see some of reality, but not all. Some things it got wrong, due to people's limited comprehension. And of course, religion is many times not a deep well of facts, agreed, but to dismiss everything in religion, is simplistic, ignorant and un-wise.
There may be stories in religion that are not meant to be taken literally (like the members of the sect of science always do). Taking everything literally is very limiting. Just look into various sayings of Jesus, or Buddha, and see what these saying could actually mean. They are not meant to be taken literally. Then you miss the point.
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If religion to a large extent (whatever that means) is full of fairy tales and nonsense, it doesn't imply that there is no Creating Source. One may of course reject the various images of God in different religions, but this may be a good thing, as an image will only take you away from its reality. Allah says in AQ that we should not associate anything with it. It is because associating some image with it will result in an illusion, a mental construct, pointing away from reality.
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Like I said, Creative Source must be experienced, not figured out or understood. Our minds cannot grasp it, and we should not be so simplistic to think that God doesn't exist just because our minds, which are just thinking and feeling tools, cannot grasp it. Inability to see is not same as 'doesn't exist'. Let's at least be realistic enough to admit that since some people report having experienced Creative Source, then it just might be true, even if we haven't experienced it for ourselves as yet. We should not be over confident. Let's leave a window of opportunity open.
Peace, and warm regards
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