Pork and it's by-products or just the meat?

The_Chaste_Maid

What about the whole halal part?
Does gelatin and broth have to be halal?
Many soups consist of chicken broth, does the broth have to be halal? same goes with beef gelatin.

and if it is okay to eat pork gelatin does the pig have to be butchered the halal way? b/c this does not exist.. many muslims refuse to work with pig. There's no such thing as halal pork.

unknownuser

What about the whole halal part?
Does gelatin and broth have to be halal?
Many soups consist of chicken broth, does the broth have to be halal? same goes with beef gelatin.

and if it is okay to eat pork gelatin does the pig have to be butchered the halal way? b/c this does not exist.. many muslims refuse to work with pig. There's no such thing as halal pork.

This is the hadith I have often seen used to get past the "halal" issue

A group of people said to the Nabi (Sallallahu alayhi wa Sallam), "Some people brought us meat and we do not know whether or not they have mentioned Allah?s name on slaughtering the animal." He (Sallallahu alayhi wa Sallam) said, "Mention the Name of Allah over it and then eat it." Those people had embraced Al-Islam recently."

Not saying it is right...but I hear it often. When I question it, I get the reply "Well, it COULD have been slaughtered in the halal way...we weren't there so we don't know. Just say Bismillah and eat it."

Excuses abound through hadith....

hawk99

Peace,
basically select foods from the lawful categories and mention God's name before eating.
For me this religion is easy to follow and has a path that leads sound mind and happiness
all praise to the lord and sustainer of all things

Why should you not eat from that upon which GOD's name has been mentioned? He has detailed for you what is prohibited for you, unless you are forced. Indeed, many people mislead others with their personal opinions, without knowledge. Your Lord is fully aware of the transgressors.

You shall avoid obvious sins, as well as the hidden ones. Those who have earned sins will surely pay for their transgressions.

Do not eat from that upon which the name of GOD has not been mentioned, for it is an abomination. The devils inspire their allies to argue with you; if you obey them, you will be idol worshipers.

*6121 Dietary prohibitions instituted by other than God represent idolatry.

Today, all good food is made lawful for you. The food of the people of the scripture is lawful for you. Also, you may marry the chaste women among the believers, as well as the chaste women among the followers of previous scripture, provided you pay them their due dowries. You shall maintain chastity, not committing adultery, nor taking secret lovers. Anyone who rejects faith, all his work will be in vain, and in the Hereafter he will be with the losers.

Prohibited for you are animals that die of themselves, blood, the meat of pigs,* and animals dedicated to other than GOD. (Animals that die of themselves include those) strangled, struck with an object, fallen from a height, gored, attacked by a wild animal?unless you save your animal before it dies?and animals sacrificed on altars. Also prohibited is dividing the meat through a game of chance; this is an abomination. Today, the disbelievers have given up concerning (the eradication of) your religion; do not fear them and fear Me instead. Today, I have completed your religion, perfected My blessing upon you, and I have decreed Submission as the religion for you. If one is forced by famine (to eat prohibited food), without being deliberately sinful, then GOD is Forgiver, Merciful

Peace

Emil

What about the whole halal part?
Does gelatin and broth have to be halal?
Many soups consist of chicken broth, does the broth have to be halal? same goes with beef gelatin.

and if it is okay to eat pork gelatin does the pig have to be butchered the halal way? b/c this does not exist.. many muslims refuse to work with pig. There's no such thing as halal pork.

Salam Chaste Maid

I have written this before in some other thread, but it is a good story for opening the mind to what is halal and what is not.

I am a sailor, and one story you hear as one is that if you get lost on the ocean all you have to do is to follow the dead sheep, they will lead you to Mecca.........

Before the halal butchers started living overseas muslim countries used to import live animals by the numbers. They were shipped from the big producing countries, the biggest being New Zeeland and Australia. The exporters wanted of course to make profit so they would fill their ships to the brink, much like the slave ships from Africa to America back in the day.......Horrible conditions for the animals and many of the sheep would perish along the way. The sailors would dispose of the carcasses by throwing them overboard. Dead bodies float so there would be a trail of dead sheep towards any given muslim country.....

An animal that has suffered in horrible conditions before slaughtered according to islamic rituals........................................Halal meat?
An animal that has lived a good and wholesome life slaughtered according to rules set down for humane treatment..........Haram meat?

To me, the chicken broth is halal if it comes from a healthy chicken that has not been pedigreed to the point it is so large its legs cannot hold the weight of the body.
To me, any meat is haram where the animal has suffered, no matter if it has been slaughtered according to islamic rituals or not.

When it comes to gelatin.......well most of the products that contain gelatin also contain many other things that are haram (preservatives, modified starch, E-chemicals etc). So on the haram scale gelatin is not even in the top one hundred.

hawk99

Salam Chaste Maid

I have written this before in some other thread, but it is a good story for opening the mind to what is halal and what is not.

I am a sailor, and one story you hear as one is that if you get lost on the ocean all you have to do is to follow the dead sheep, they will lead you to Mecca.........

Before the halal butchers started living overseas muslim countries used to import live animals by the numbers. They were shipped from the big producing countries, the biggest being New Zeeland and Australia. The exporters wanted of course to make profit so they would fill their ships to the brink, much like the slave ships from Africa to America back in the day.......Horrible conditions for the animals and many of the sheep would perish along the way. The sailors would dispose of the carcasses by throwing them overboard. Dead bodies float so there would be a trail of dead sheep towards any given muslim country.....

An animal that has suffered in horrible conditions before slaughtered according to islamic rituals........................................Halal meat?
An animal that has lived a good and wholesome life slaughtered according to rules set down for humane treatment..........Haram meat?

To me, the chicken broth is halal if it comes from a healthy chicken that has not been pedigreed to the point it is so large its legs cannot hold the weight of the body.
To me, any meat is haram where the animal has suffered, no matter if it has been slaughtered according to islamic rituals or not.

When it comes to gelatin.......well most of the products that contain gelatin also contain many other things that are haram (preservatives, modified starch, E-chemicals etc). So on the haram scale gelatin is not even in the top one hundred.

Emil I don't see your Quran quotes, where do you get your infomation?

Peace

good_logic

Peace all.

Let us see what GOD says

Say, "I do not find in what was revealed to me anything prohibited for any eater unless it is (1) Dead (animals), (2) running blood, (3) the meat of pigs, for it is unclean, and (4) meat blasphemously dedicated to other than God." If one is forced to eat these without being malicious or deliberate, then your Lord is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

GOD tells us that HE is displeased with those who prohibit any food that HE has made lawful to us

You shall not utter lies with your own tongues stating "This is lawful, and this is unlawful," to fabricate lies and attribute them to God. Surely, those who fabricate lies and attribute them to God will never succeed.

Check what your Lord says and enjoy your food.
Peace.

Emil

Emil I don't see your Quran quotes, where do you get your infomation?

Peace

Salam hawkninetynine

treat the animal with the respect because in the eyes of Allah they are just as important as you and I
638
And there is not a creature on the earth, nor a bird that flies with its wings, except they belong to nations like you belong. We did not leave anything out of the record; then to their Lord they will be gathered.

Do not hurt yourself
2195
And spend in the cause of God, but do not throw your resources to disaster. And do good, for God loves those who do good.

Eat clean food
2168
O people, eat from what is on the earth as good and lawful, and do not follow in the footsteps of the devil. He is to you a clear enemy.

Of course it comes down a what you define as good food, respect for animals and what is hurting you. I do not particularly see chemicals as good food, I do not trust a food product that can stay in the cupboard for months without going bad. I do not see deliberately added chemicals to food as something good for my health and I do not see breeding of animals the way we do today as respect to Allah?s creation

hawk99

Peace Emil

Has nothing to do with Lawful and unlawful foods.

accept what our lord says regarding lawful foods

God did not say "oh you believe do not eat chemicals"
if that is your personal choice, fine but personal choices have no place in religious discussions.

from Quran Kareem is not refering to lawful and unlawful food. Here is the context
You may kill those who wage war against you, and you may evict them whence they evicted you. Oppression is worse than murder. Do not fight them at the Sacred Mosque (Masjid), unless they attack you therein. If they attack you, you may kill them. This is the just retribution for those disbelievers.

If they refrain, then GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

You may also fight them to eliminate oppression, and to worship GOD freely. If they refrain, you shall not aggress; aggression is permitted only against the aggressors.

During the Sacred Months, aggression may be met by an equivalent response. If they attack you, you may retaliate by inflicting an equitable retribution. You shall observe GOD and know that GOD is with the righteous.

You shall spend in the cause of GOD; do not throw yourselves with your own hands into destruction. You shall be charitable; GOD loves the charitable.

sorry, no mention of clean food in
O people, eat from what is on the earth as good and lawful, and do not follow in the footsteps of the devil. He is to you a clear enemy.

Allah has blessed the believers with an easy path to follow don't complicate it.

Peace

youssef4342

Peace be with you as well.
Please note that there is a difference between Meat and fat.
It is somewhat clear in that the Quran uses the word Lahm or meat. There is another word for fat, which is sha7m.
Notice that the Prohibition on the Jews in 6146 is the fat of some animals except in certain parts of their bodies. However, the MEAT of the same animals is not prohibited. Thus we could conclude upon this that the fat of pigs (lard), is not prohibited. Other parts including bones might not be prohibited as well, since 1) they are not meat, and 2) at least for human anatomy we know that God created the bones and then encased the bones with meat in 2314. This would simply mean, bones are not the same as meat.
Moreover, we are not prohibited from using pigs/pig products for other things (e.g cosmetics, medicine etc).

Now about Gelatin. Gelatin might be technically meat, since it is made of protein (i.e meat). well to be technical it is made from "collagen, the soft protein that connects our skin, bones, muscles, tendons."..... I am not really 100% sure, but for now, i guess it would be prohibited/haram, since skin might be considered as meat.... God knows better.

I suggest you read the articles on http//quransmessage.com/articles/food%20FM3.htm
Especially Food Permissibility and Prohibitions
"http//quransmessage.com/articles/food%20restrictions%20FM3.htm

Emil

Has nothing to do with Lawful and unlawful foods.

No sir, but it has to do with our relationship with animals and that we should regard all living creatures as God's creation. Therefore we should not pedigree animals to the point where they cease to be animals. We should not see livestock as a "product", they too demand respect as any of God's creature. We should not treat them the way we do. Whenever humans are torturing humans in slave ships or concentration camps we all react ...."oh, what horrible people" we say......but when an animals are treated the same only a handful react, the rest turn a blind eye or even worse, shrug their shoulders.

God did not say "oh you believe do not eat chemicals" from Quran Kareem is not refering to lawful and unlawful food. Here is the context

Yeah that is true. In my native tongue Quran 2195 can be paraphrased as "do not physically harm yourself" so we got bit of a translation problem here....
Some of the chemicals found in food nowadays can hardly be recognised as healthy, that you have to agree with.

sorry, no mention of clean food in
O people, eat from what is on the earth as good and lawful, and do not follow in the footsteps of the devil. He is to you a clear enemy.

So what does "good" imply? Tasty?

Allah has blessed the believers with an easy path to follow don't complicate it.

No, I guess you are right. Let's just focus on the ritual of halal slaughter and if gelatin is forbidden or not. Let's just ignore the belgian blues and American chicken farms and the dying oceans. It is better for our salvation to make sure the chicken is slaughtered facing Mecca, not that it grows twice as fast and gets twice as big as God intended a chicken to ever be.

Peace

Emil

hawk99

Peace Emil,

I only gave you my point of view, you can survive off boiled water if you like.

Peace O0

Emil

Peace Emil,

I only gave you my point of view, you can survive off boiled water if you like.

Peace O0

Salam Hawkninetynine

So sir, you didnt. You questioned mine. I know you are not one of "those" people I am getting annoyed at, if I am came across harshly I apologise.
You know the people that say we should not eat pork because pork is not clean and they use scientific research that states pork gives you cancer, stomach problems, kidney problems and whatnot to prove their point...............On the same time they are munching away on "halal" food stuffed with preservatives and other chemicals.....Or the ones who are completely dogmatic they refuse to look beyond the ritual slaughter. As long as they have that they think they are pleasing God.... In those countries where halal slaughter is forbidden because of cruelty to animals muslims proclaim the animal does not suffer during the slitting of the throat. This is probably true, but as believers that God is in everything they should also make sure the animal does not suffer when brought up in the farm/transported to the slaughter house. Unfortunately they do not......

I live in the country but in a community with a fairly large muslim group. There is a supermarket that sells halal food, most of the products are imported from.....Turkey I think it is......anyways, a country quite far away....
So in this supermarket you got turkey produced locally (literally around the corner) and halal turkey produced in Turkey...Turkey from Turkey confused
One turkey has literally walked by itself to the supermarket. The other has been transported via lorry/ship/airplane a good distance..........Am I to choose the turkey that the word bismillah has been uttered upon when slaughtered or should I choose the turkey with the smallest carbon footprint? Which turkey is more pleasing to God? The one that contributes to pollution or the one that is not slaughtered by islamic ritual?

unknownuser

I haven't read through the whole thread, but I wanted to share my views on Halal meat

The Quran forbids

Ma Uhilla bihi lighayrallah

Ma Uhilla lighayrallah bihi

They mean

What has been dedicated/announced/On which invocation has been made with it to other than Allah

What has been dedicated/announced/On which invocation has been made to other than Allah with it

So technically, what has been dedicated/announced to something/someone other than Allah/God is prohibited. Based on that, I conclude, that if something has not been dedicated/announced at all, then it is up to us to dedicate/announce it to Allah and eat it. However, one thing that keeps me from finalizing this understanding of mine, is the 'Bihi' or 'With it' that appears in the phrase. God could have simply said 'Ma Uhilla Lighayrallah' / 'What is dedicated/announced to other than Allah', however, in reality, He said 'What has been dedicated/announced to other than Allah with it'. So I was wondering, what does 'With it' refer to? If someone can help me find out, I'd be very happy.

The_Chaste_Maid

I agree Emil. i just wish there was some way we could have both.
Islamic ritual doesn't just mean under Gods name, is ALSO means the meat has to be clean. It is unlawful for someone to poison ones body.

peace

IAMOP

If you slaughter something in the name of God then the name of God is justice/mercy/goodliness. That's saying "this meat has been certified to be of such great quality that God himself has approved of it". So yes Emil has a very profound and important point.

One must take care with this entire issue as well because if you fall on the wrong side knowingly then you would be committing shirk. So what does 'lahm' include? Skin? Let's clarify that totally otherwise you will not be able to understand where gelatin fits into this.

Likewise with what Emil says about preservatives, etc, there is a growing trend of inserting genetically modified foodstuffs into everyday things. These are EXPLICITLY haram as per 4119 and I would recommend anyone in California to vote Yes for Proposition 37 (click for more info) which would ensure all food containing GM is explicitly labelled as so. And remember, "...The devils inspire their allies to argue with you; if you obey them, you will be idol worshipers. - 6119".

You must realise that there are two commands eat what is good AND lawful; do not destroy yourselves. The latter verse may have a context regarding spending but these two commands together mean we are certainly commanded to eat good food and good food ONLY. If food is evil/unhealthy/destructive we are prohibited from eating it. So Emil is totally correct here. As submitters to God we are responsible entirely for treating correctly the bodies that He has provided us with and one must remember that the body for you is leasehold, to God the freehold

unknownuser

53 Forbidden to you is that which is already dead, and the blood, and
the meat of pig, and what was dedicated to other than God, and
that which has been strangled, and that which has been beaten
to death, and that which has fallen from a height, and that which
has been gored, and that which the wild animals have eaten from
except what you managed to rescue, and what has been slaughtered
on altars, and what you divide by the arrows of chance.

This is getting a little too deep...I agree that we should eat things that are good for us...a healthy balance of vegetables, grains, meat and the like. We should not be eating up junk food all the time, and we should definitely take care of our bodies, as life is a gift.

When we get into things like genetically modified foods being unlawful or lawful, I see a line being crossed. Granted it is unhealthy for us, but that is an entirely different subject from what is stated in the Qu'ran. It has been made clear what is forbidden in the Qu'ran.

Just my opinion.

Peace,

Amina

hawk99

Peace,

By the way, fat and meat are two different things.
meats is the part of the animal that is infused with blood (red) and has a " fleshy" texture.
Bird flesh can be white or light in color.
Fat is the white part of the animal
(lipid, a constituent of fat a biological compound that is not soluble in water, e.g. a fat. The group also includes waxes, oils, sterols, triglycerides, phosphatides, and phospholipids.)
Geletin is the stuff that "Jello" is made from, you know the stuff that falls through your fingers
if you try to pick it up!

Geletin is a semisolid protein a transparent protein material made from boiling animal hides, bone, and cartilage that forms a firm gel when mixed with water. Use foods, medicine, glue, photography.

Even on an experience level, I have never ordered a "fat" sandwich.
I have never went into a restaurant and asked, could I have a fat sandwich with fried onions,
peppers, mustard and ketchup please.

meat is meat, fat is fat, bone is bone.

Peace O0

unknownuser

Peace,

By the way, fat and meat are two different things.
meats is the part of the animal that is infused with blood (red) and has a " fleshy" texture.
Bird flesh can be white or light in color.
Fat is the white part of the animal
(lipid, a constituent of fat a biological compound that is not soluble in water, e.g. a fat. The group also includes waxes, oils, sterols, triglycerides, phosphatides, and phospholipids.)
Geletin is the stuff that "Jello" is made from, you know the stuff that falls through your fingers
if you try to pick it up!

Geletin is a semisolid protein a transparent protein material made from boiling animal hides, bone, and cartilage that forms a firm gel when mixed with water. Use foods, medicine, glue, photography.

Even on an experience level, I have never ordered a "fat" sandwich.
I have never went into a restaurant and asked, could I have a fat sandwich with fried onions,
peppers, mustard and ketchup please.

meat is meat, fat is fat, bone is bone.

Peace O0

LOL! This just reminds me of the days before I was Muslim. My family is from the southern U.S. and pork was a staple in our house. Pork chops, sausage, and on holidays we ate chitterlings, the intestines of the pig. Other times we would eat pigs feet (yup, boiled pigs feet), and often enjoyed pork rinds and cracklin'. The going joke was that we ate everything on the pig but the oink.

I just thought of that when you said that you have never ordered a fat sandwich.

Peace,

Amina

redsulphur1229

I believe this topic has been discussed before, and in my view, established that 'khinzeer' does not mean 'pig/swine' at all. If it does, then there are internal contradictions in the Quran, and the Quran should not be interpreted in a manner which renders it as internally contradictory.

55-6 - They ask thee what is made lawful for them. Say, ?All good things have been made lawful for you; and what you have taught the beasts and birds of prey to catch for you, training them for hunting and teaching them of what Allah has taught you. So eat of that which they catch for you, and pronounce thereon the name of Allah. And fear Allah. Surely, Allah is quick in reckoning.? This day all good things have been made lawful for you. And the food of the People of the Book is lawful for you, and your food is lawful for them.

6147 - And to those who are Jews, We forbade all animals having claws, and of the oxen and the sheep and goats did We forbid them their fats, save that which their backs bear or the intestines, or that which is mixed with a bone. That is the reward We gave them for their rebellion. And most surely We are truthful.

394 - All food was lawful to the children of Israel, except what Israel forbade himself before the Torah was sent down. Say, ?Bring, then, the Torah and read it, if you are truthful.?

4161 - So, because of the transgression of the Jews, We forbade them pure things which had been allowed to them, and also because of their hindering many men from Allah?s way.

16119 - And to those also who are Jews, We forbade before this all that We have related to thee. And We wronged them not, but they used to wrong themselves.

Based on the verses above, whatever is lawful for Muslims is lawful for the People of the Book and vice versa. 55-6 are the sum total of what was forbidden to Jews. As pigs do not have claws, pigs are not on the list. While I have seen some fall into debate about what type of feet pigs have, such a debate is irrelevant since 55-6 also state that the sole reason for these prohibitions was rebellion. Unless Muslims wish to be a party to such rebellion, the above prohibitions do not apply to them.

As the word 'khinz' literally refers to something as 'foul', khinzeer may just be a reference to contaminated, rotting, decaying, unclean meat generally, and not to a specific animal which, later, came to be called 'khinzeer'. In Leviticus and Deuteronomy, the equivalent word is 'chizer', and the reason given for prohibiting it is because it chews the cud. Apparently, along with not flying, pigs do not chew the cud.

As interpretive methodology, we should be careful when interpreting the Quran's prohibitions.

588-89 - O ye who believe! make not unlawful the good things which Allah has made lawful for you, and do not transgress. Surely, Allah loves not the transgressors. And eat of that which Allah has provided for you of what is lawful and good. And fear Allah in Whom you believe.

1060 - Say, ?Have you considered that Allah sent down provision to you, then you made some of it unlawful and some lawful?? Say, ?Has Allah permitted you that or do you invent lies against Allah?

Based on these verses, out of caution and out of respect for these verses, I am loathe to prohibit more than I should.

Moreover, I will never follow an interpretation that renders the Quran as internally consistent, and, as noted above, if 'khinzeer' means 'pig/swine', the Quran is internally inconsistent.

unknownuser