Mushu's thoughts on siyam/fasting
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Wakas, firstly, we have to HAVE a rigorous methodology. Then we can start to apply it.
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peace,
mushu, I appreciate its a work in progress, but as i said, taking it one part at a time should be more beneficial in terms of accuracy.
Sure. I actually did start one part at a time, so that post is an accumulation of that process.
You could start with 2/183-187 if you like? What's your understanding of that passage? What did you think of mine?
Shall I kick Wakky-boy's arse for you, Mush?
laugh
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just skimmed through some parts
I?m not sure how abstaining and fighting corruption in society correlate.
your interpretation of 'Rafathu' kinda seems odd.
?According to LL, rafathu has a root meaning of obscene behaviour, which fits better in this verse as well as 2/197.?
Explain Obscene behaviour? It's ok? It?s not sex? But obscene behaviour? You lost me.'Permitted for you' doesn't seem to mean the permission came from Allah. It seems the deviance of the people made the rafathu of nisa permissible. Allah describes this as a betrayal.
What is betrayal? Rafathu of nisa? rafthu to nisa is permissible in the night of siyam.
Anyone who has witnessed dawn and sunrise will know that there is no black thread nor white thread.
Is that fact?we know sawm isn?t something new. 2183 it was written before us and is now written for us.
2184 it?s a certain number of days however it?s not explicit for how long. If you?re sick or on a journey then you?re to do it another time. Or if you can?t do it feed a poor person yet sawn is better.
Now a new concept is introduced
2185 If you witness the shahr Ramadan than you are to sawm it. And it explains again if sick or on a journey repeat the sawm a different time.
2186 calling onto god
I didn?t read all your analysis but did you interpret ?? from 2187?
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Mushu,
I am still digesting your post. God only knows what He meant but here are some of my thoughts....
2/183 in this verse, God is telling the believers that siyyam is enjoined on them as it has been in the past and the reason being to attain righteousness. Now, going without food, drinks or sex will not necessarily lead to righteousness. So in this sense, your metaphorical understanding that siyyam referring to fighting corruption does makes sense in a way.
but here is where your understanding fails me which is in the next verse 2/184 if you are ill or travelling, or find it hard to abstain then feed the poor or do it on other days. if siyyam refers to abstaining from corruption or fighting corruption, then this verse doesn't make sense.
My understanding based on 2/184 and 2/185 is that fasting is a personal thing with the purpose of attaining righteousness. It is about self improvement and betterment. By the way, fighting corruption in society may not lead to me becoming more righteous. I can bring down a corrupt government but yet go home get drunk and engage in lewd sexual acts.
Being righteous is the goal and siyyam is way of attaining it. In the eyes of God, the most honorable are those believers who are righteous. Over and over again, this is made clear in the Koran (refer to ayat 7/26). So, what is siyyam - just going without food, water, sex?
In verse 2/185. God says that he wishes ease and not hardship for us by prescribing fasting. It is hard to go without food and water all day. God knows as it is He who designed us and knows what happens if you go 8-12+ hours without water and food. in some can trigger migraine, hypoglycemic episodes, decrease in concentration, causing irritability, lethargy...one can seriously get sick from abstaining from water and food. In turn, this can lead to adverse affects.
In my mind, I don't think that fasting refers to abstaining from food, water from sunrise to sunset for 30 days. As there are parts of the world (greenland as an example where for 2-3 months, there is continuous sunlight) and so how can this verse be applicable if you are living in greenland? Remember God wishes ease, not hardship and the purpose of fasting is to attain righteousness.
Personally, fasting is not a big deal to me as God didn't make it a big deal like people have. It is something that God had prescribed to all believers - not just the muslims. Jews fast also. It is not a pillar of my faith. It is not something that makes me a "muslim".
I have done fasting the traditional way and have gotten really sick from doing so. Also going without food, water and then pigging out at iftar parties just isn't something that made me a better person or lead me to becoming more righteous. I do a "modified" fasting but not for 30 days straight. It is a spiritual time for quite reflection of the life that I have lead, being grateful that I am a muslim having Koran as my source of guidance, looking at the society, the world that we live in - I am grateful to not only have the Koran but the wisdom also. This month in particular, I am mindful of those who go hungry and children swifting through garbage for meals. anyhow, i have a lot of things to be grateful for.When people ask me about fasting and why I don't fast, I refer them to the ayats in the Koran letting them know of what God says and what it is all about - attaining righteousness. God doesn't say that fasting is 'requirement' or that you will go to heaven if you go without food, water, sex from sunrise to sunset.
I am used to traditional muslims looking me down on me. The holier-than-thou attitude and hypocrisy used to bother me when I was young but now....when an obese person tells me how I am weak and lack self control, I just smile. If you 'fast' and then have sex outside of marriage, or watch pornography, or mistreat your wife....sorry but what is the point?
Anyhow, those are just my thoughts and understanding.
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Beautiful and interesting posts. sun
I am grateful to you all who give us the opportunity to learn more and more, thanks to your sharing of your insights, thoughts, and opinions!
Peace
peace -
Mushu,
I am still digesting your post. God only knows what He meant but here are some of my thoughts....
2/183 in this verse, God is telling the believers that siyyam is enjoined on them as it has been in the past and the reason being to attain righteousness. Now, going without food, drinks or sex will not necessarily lead to righteousness. So in this sense, your metaphorical understanding that siyyam referring to fighting corruption does makes sense in a way.
but here is where your understanding fails me which is in the next verse 2/184 if you are ill or travelling, or find it hard to abstain then feed the poor or do it on other days. if siyyam refers to abstaining from corruption or fighting corruption, then this verse doesn't make sense.
My understanding based on 2/184 and 2/185 is that fasting is a personal thing with the purpose of attaining righteousness. It is about self improvement and betterment. By the way, fighting corruption in society may not lead to me becoming more righteous. I can bring down a corrupt government but yet go home get drunk and engage in lewd sexual acts.
Being righteous is the goal and siyyam is way of attaining it. In the eyes of God, the most honorable are those believers who are righteous. Over and over again, this is made clear in the Koran (refer to ayat 7/26). So, what is siyyam - just going without food, water, sex?
In verse 2/185. God says that he wishes ease and not hardship for us by prescribing fasting. It is hard to go without food and water all day. God knows as it is He who designed us and knows what happens if you go 8-12+ hours without water and food. in some can trigger migraine, hypoglycemic episodes, decrease in concentration, causing irritability, lethargy...one can seriously get sick from abstaining from water and food. In turn, this can lead to adverse affects.
In my mind, I don't think that fasting refers to abstaining from food, water from sunrise to sunset for 30 days. As there are parts of the world (greenland as an example where for 2-3 months, there is continuous sunlight) and so how can this verse be applicable if you are living in greenland? Remember God wishes ease, not hardship and the purpose of fasting is to attain righteousness.
Personally, fasting is not a big deal to me as God didn't make it a big deal like people have. It is something that God had prescribed to all believers - not just the muslims. Jews fast also. It is not a pillar of my faith. It is not something that makes me a "muslim".
I have done fasting the traditional way and have gotten really sick from doing so. Also going without food, water and then pigging out at iftar parties just isn't something that made me a better person or lead me to becoming more righteous. I do a "modified" fasting but not for 30 days straight. It is a spiritual time for quite reflection of the life that I have lead, being grateful that I am a muslim having Koran as my source of guidance, looking at the society, the world that we live in - I am grateful to not only have the Koran but the wisdom also. This month in particular, I am mindful of those who go hungry and children swifting through garbage for meals. anyhow, i have a lot of things to be grateful for.When people ask me about fasting and why I don't fast, I refer them to the ayats in the Koran letting them know of what God says and what it is all about - attaining righteousness. God doesn't say that fasting is 'requirement' or that you will go to heaven if you go without food, water, sex from sunrise to sunset.
I am used to traditional muslims looking me down on me. The holier-than-thou attitude and hypocrisy used to bother me when I was young but now....when an obese person tells me how I am weak and lack self control, I just smile. If you 'fast' and then have sex outside of marriage, or watch pornography, or mistreat your wife....sorry but what is the point?
Anyhow, those are just my thoughts and understanding.
Salaam and thank you for your post. I have been struggling to understand this subject for sometime now. I found your comment not only to be uplifting, but true, in the sense that the Ramadan of today, for me at least, is not about those less fortunate, or helping the frail old lady next door, by mowing her lawn. The Ramadan of today has lost it's meaning. It can be a torturous month for some. I only fasted the 10 days, as I felt that was what is required. Unfortunately, I was told that I was missing out on half of my religion.
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The Ramadan of today has lost it's meaning. It can be a torturous month for some. I only fasted the 10 days, as I felt that was what is required. Unfortunately, I was told that I was missing out on half of my religion.
Salaam
I am posting this for all those who feel that Ramadan is a torturous month;
The aim of fasting may be reduction of weight, improvement of health or to remove a certain ailment of the body. Signs of special improvements on account of fasting are seen in every situation, though, in case of reduction of weight, the signs observed are fewer.
The physical excitement during the fasting, creates a feeling of joy in most parts of the body. A person feels more pleasure in fasting than in taking food. He starts feeling a natural dislike for food. Therefore, these types of patients appear calm, contented and cheerful from the start of their fasts, because they feel very restful. Most people feel very little pain during the fasts.
The blame for the normal excitement, trouble, pain or agony felt in the body during the fasts, is passed on to the fasts. To a certain extent this is true also, but as the fasts are continued for a longer period, all these troubles start vanishing. Such troubles start in the beginning of the fasts due to the special condition of our body cells, but as the cells get cleansed, the troubles too, end.
The people who are addicted to alcoholic drinks or smoking and those who always take very spicy foods, feel much more trouble in the early days of fasting. In the absence of such things which they have to skip, they feel nervous, angry, etc. and they vomit and do not sleep well. Uneasiness and pain is felt in the body. They suffer from severe head?ache. This painful situation does exist for some days. Therefore, it is not proper to be apprehensive about it and break the fast. After some days the situation changes and the patient returns to his normal condition.
Sometimes, the fasting person is given fruits and rest of mind to save him from such a situation. According to me this is not proper. This creates hindrance in fasting because after a light diet for two or three days, the same troubles repeat. On account of this trouble, sometimes, persons who want to have a long fast have to give up the fasts and the period of the fasts has to be lengthened. It is better for a person to fight out the troubles. If the first five days of the fasts are observed courageously as per rules, later on all the painful signs vanish for ever.
In the beginning of the fasts, some physical changes do occur, depending in each individual. Some times a heaviness in tongue is felt, bad smell may be given out from the mouth or breathing, teeth may be sticky. Symptoms of fever may be felt in the mouth, tongue, breathing, etc. There is nothing to fear from such physical signs or changes. When a person is fasting for the removal of some chronic disease, these signs continue for a few days. The patient surely feels uneasy due to these changes, but it informs us that the inner cleansing of the body organs is going on. All harmful substances - all debris, excreta, urine, perspiration, etc. - slowly leave the body. Later, the tongue becomes clean, mouth fresh and breathing clean, after ejection of the unwanted, polluting substances. At last, at the proper time, the patient feels really well and hungry.
Urination during the fasts is regular but the color of the urine changes after a few hours and some difficulty is alto felt in passing the urine. The urine of some patients is dark in color and stinking. But after a week or two of fasting according to the condition of the patient, the urine is regular, clean, odorless, natural and is passed without any trouble. From this change in urination, it can be concluded that the kidneys have to overwork for cleansing the accumulated waste. This waste is being thrown out through the urine. When the cleansing is complete, the urine assumes its normal color and form. Important cells of the body have to utilize the nutritive substances stored in advance. They get energized from these substances only and cleanse the body quickly. As the unwanted cells are destroyed, the excess weight of the body, is reduced quickly. This weight loss is also considered as a cleansing programme. At the same time symptoms of health improvement are also observed.
In the early days of fasting, the weight reduces very quickly. Obese persons lose more weight, more quickly than the lean persons. Sometimes, even lean persons also lose more weight, more quickly, just as the obese ones, on account of more waste substances accumulated in the body. This loss remains only during the early days of fasting. A normal person loses up to about 3-4 kg. everyday and an obese one loses 2-3 kg. But after some days, the rate of weight loss is slower. During the end days of long fasts, the daily loss is even less than 1/8 kg.
Weak persons should not be afraid of fasting, because their weight will increase rather than decrease. The weight of such persons can be increased by giving them a little food during the fasts. Therefore, it is wrong to believe that fasting benefits only the obese persons.
Sometimes, weakness is experienced during the fasts, because the routine processes of the body are slightly obstructed. The organs and the tissues of the body have an opportunity to rest during the fasting. Therefore they, too, work slowly. The heart throbs at a slower rate, blood circulation is slower, breathing is less, and the muscles of the body reduce their work. Especially the tired, sick body feels relief and rests. This is the desired condition. The body regains its full strength, after it is cleansed. The feeling of energy is experienced after the fasts, long before the food intake is started. This is why, a little weakness for a few days should not be considered when compared with the physical advantages accrued through the fasts.
Some people start worrying about fasting in advance. Such people imagine the pain, produced during the cleansing of the body during the fast, to be far greater than the real one. But all these troubles do not occur in all the stages of fasting. Very few such examples of pain are seen. There is no rule about it. Most of the people are not found suffering from such little troubles. Sometimes, the cleansing process of the body is completed without any trouble. If some painful situation arises sometime, it should be welcomed warmly, because it is surely for the well-being of the patient.
Sometimes, some boils or pimples are seen on the skin during fasting, but it should also be considered as a result of the cleansing process. Sometimes giddiness is felt and may result in swooning. The heart-throbs increase and other such symptoms are seen but we should not be frightened. There is no danger in this situation.
Severe feeling of uneasiness and vomiting show the worst situation during fasting. This is a testing time and an effect of physical weakness is also felt but it is very beneficial to the body. Sometimes, on the first day of fasting or later the feeling of uneasiness is experienced. The patient may vomit also. Generally, this happens due to the abstinence from food for a few days. Sometimes, vomiting takes place after a fast of about four weeks.
Why does vomiting start? Generally, phlegm and bile increase in the liver along with water. The liver has to work for a long time to cleanse these substances. They are thrown in the stomach for many days which, later on, are thrown out of the body in the form of vomiting. Whatever the troubles of the person on fast in this tough test, he is compensated in another way. The vomiting situation lasts from one to seven days. As soon as it stops, the body regains enough energy.
If continuous vomiting lasts for more days and even water is thrown out, it must be realized that the health of the patient is not in good shape. This happens because of dehydration. This should be considered a serious condition and the fasts must be discontinued immediately. Much water is lost by the body due to continuous vomiting and the patient becomes very weak. In such a situation, the patient regains his energy after many days. If the patient suffers from diarrhoea along with vomiting, it should be taken very seriously. Such situations however, are seen on very rare occasions.
If the vomiting does not stop after a short time, the fasts should be terminated. When even water is not retained, how can food be digested? In such a condition, various fruit juices should be given, which the patient can digest. Only later on, the food should be given. Generally, it rarely happens that a patient suffers from both, the vomitting and the diarrhoea. But it does occur sometimes. This may occur at any time during fasting. During that time the phlegm, bile and other waste material accumulated are thrown out. This should be considered as a part of the body cleansing process.
http//www.healthguidance.org/entry/4803/1/Benefits-of-Fasting.html
English (Yusuf Ali) (Recite)
2184 (Fasting) for a fixed number of days; but if any of you is ill, or on a journey, the prescribed number (Should be made up) from days later. For those who can do it (With hardship), is a ransom, the feeding of one that is indigent. But he that will give more, of his own free will,- it is better for him. And it is better for you that ye fast, if ye only knew.Salaam
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Salaam to all of you sun
Nice start bro please keep going, bravo
check this books wich are a compilation of this subjects, http//www.aastana.com/URDU/default.asp 4 english books, altought not 100%correct IMO , i think is close to this post, its very important to see AlQuran not as a book of rituals and animal secrifice,etc , but instead a regulation Book wich is the Creterion the furqan for all mankind with fair rules for all and each one of us as individuals.Its the sistem, The Deen, not religion or cult.Salaam
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Salaam Farida.
Sorry, but I would have to disagree. Speaking personally, I have always found the first 2 weeks to be the easiest, and then it's gone slowly downhill from there. The last 2 weeks, I found myself forgetful, unaware of dangers like crossing roads. Toward the end of my fast I felt like I hadn't had much sleep, I was in a daze most of the time. This is just my own personal experience. Other friends and family have felt more or less the same way, none of which smoke. -
Salaam Farida.
Sorry, but I would have to disagree. Speaking personally, I have always found the first 2 weeks to be the easiest, and then it's gone slowly downhill from there. The last 2 weeks, I found myself forgetful, unaware of dangers like crossing roads. Toward the end of my fast I felt like I hadn't had much sleep, I was in a daze most of the time. This is just my own personal experience. Other friends and family have felt more or less the same way, none of which smoke.Salaam
Of course everyone has a right to disagree, as we all have different metabolism. If you read my post above you'll see that I mentioned surah 2;184, at the bottom of this Health Guidance, as a reminder that Allah has given us the option to abstain ..."For those who can do it (With hardship), is a ransom, the feeding of one that is indigent. But he that will give more, of his own free will,- it is better for him. And it is better for you that ye fast, if ye only knew" The bold section does not imply any compulsion but provides a clue to the many benefits of fasting which are by no means limited to health.
BTW in my family not everyone has seen the same effect of fasting; some feel dazed whereas others feel fine as time goes on. Only the other week one of my family member was fasting while feeling ill and I reminded him that this amounts to ingratitude for not availing himself of the concession given us in 2;184
I do hope you recover soon.
Peace.
