Are we going the wrong way ?
-
w/salaam,
I disagree with you on your 1st paragraph.
I, in part, agree with you on the 2nd paragraph. The forum rule 2 was changed a while back resulting in more leeway when people discuss Quran. I disagreed with the rule change but I am only an admin/moderator not the forum owner. Since I have been a member of the forum for a long time, I do think standards have declined over the years but whether that is soley down to the rule change, I doubt it, but certainly it has a part to play.
-
w/salaam,
I disagree with you on your 1st paragraph.
I, in part, agree with you on the 2nd paragraph. The forum rule 2 was changed a while back resulting in more leeway when people discuss Quran. I disagreed with the rule change but I am only an admin/moderator not the forum owner. Since I have been a member of the forum for a long time, I do think standards have declined over the years but whether that is soley down to the rule change, I doubt it, but certainly it has a part to play.
Do you think that God (37) is talking about BASIC RULES ? If BASIC RULES (marriage, salat etc) are hard to understand then what is easy to understand ?
a) IF BASIC RULES = EASY TO UNDERSTAND then problem is within us or... I don't know
b) IF BASIC RULES = HARD TO UNDERSTAND then the same was for Muhamed. So Hadiths are word of God. But it cant be true because God says clearly QURAN ALONEWhen you said you disagree with 1st paragraph can you tell me exactly why do you disagree ? Which point ?
-
peace truthsearcher, all,
.Firstly, please bear in mind verse 37. This seems to be an under appreciated verse. It's message is very powerful. Please ponder upon it.
Secondly, please do not compare like with unlike. For example, you list quite a number of different views, but be careful you do not confuse the wheat with the chaff. If you ask yourself how many of those views actually have a detailed article behind them? You will suddenly find the number of variant views reducing dramatically.
Now, once the list of variance is reduced, ponder upon what the differences would be in a practical manner. Usually, the variance, whilst still there, is again reduced.Please ponder.
Thanks.
Salaam Wakas
I am glad you mentioned 37 I too feel that this is the basis of our understanding the Qur'an, and how we should evaluate interpretations of other; especially those who mainly seek discord and massage the text to produce an interpretation that suits their purpose.
However in your second point you remind me of some who claim that only Muslim scholars should be trusted with the interpretation of the Qur?an and who reject the views of all others. If you want to rely on 3;7 then there is no need to hold those as more reliable who write long articles. Also not everyone likes to write article as an authority, as there is always the risk of unintentionally misleading others.
The Qur?an warns us about those who with their eloquence impress many yet they are hypocrites and their aim is to cause discord. Take as an example the discussion of Ramadan on this forum where many, who profess knowledge, have been misleading others by their twisted take on Ramadan.
Easy to understand ayats elucidates the implication of the lunar month and only those who witness, it clarifies the meaning of days to be counted within this month for fasting. It also specifies when to eat and drink and when to stop and when having sex is allowed yet those in whose heart is a disease would follow that of it which is unspecific.
In addition there are those in this forum who want everyone to stop mentioning Muhammad and instead take them as the authority. Perhaps this kind of heedless speculation is what caused Bukhari and Muslim to dig out hadiths to stop people from blowing their own trumpets.Peace
-
Peace farida.
A forum is for all users to discuss/argue/express their view/opinion... There will inevitably be disagreements.
Now it is up to every user to argue their case using evidence/scripture/facts... to support their point of view.
I disagree with your view that some are misleading others. If that is the case ,why are you not misleading others also?
It is up to every individual to check the information and make their own decision.
Also remember it is GOD who guides those who choose to be guided.
Good debating to all.
Peace. -
Peace farida.
A forum is for all users to discuss/argue/express their view/opinion... There will inevitably be disagreements.
Now it is up to every user to argue their case using evidence/scripture/facts... to support their point of view.
I disagree with your view that some are misleading others. If that is the case ,why are you not misleading others also?
It is up to every individual to check the information and make their own decision.
Also remember it is GOD who guides those who choose to be guided.
Good debating to all.
Peace.Salaam
I agree with you that its good to exchange views and I along with others did debate on the subject of Hot Ramadan, I think it was back in 2009, after that I was banned from this forum for long time. Unfortunately that thread is now so long and wrapped around that most can not go through it anymore and many valuable arguments have been buried in this knot.
Peace -
Do you think Muhammad did the ritual prayer with raka and bowing and prostration?
This is unknowable, and therefore a fruitless question to pursuit. Why do you think this even matters? - let me rhetorically expand along the same line of thought without necessarily considering this question accusatory do you think that a person needs anything other than God's guidance and the Quran for learning how to practice Islam correctly?
A forum is for all users to discuss/argue/express their view/opinion... There will inevitably be disagreements.
Now it is up to every user to argue their case using evidence/scripture/facts... to support their point of view.
I disagree with your view that some are misleading others. If that is the case ,why are you not misleading others also?
It is up to every individual to check the information and make their own decision.
Peace.
Since there is only one Truth, if there is disagreement between two parties claiming to possess Truth, at least one side is wrong. Those who are wrong yet convince others they are right are misleading.
-
This is unknowable, and therefore a fruitless question to pursuit. Why do you think this even matters? - let me rhetorically expand along the same line of thought without necessarily considering this question accusatory do you think that a person needs anything other than God's guidance and the Quran for learning how to practice Islam correctly?
Yes. What if someone only understands a language that the Qur'an hasn't been translated into? They would not be able to practice Islam without guidance. God never personally instructed me on how to interpret Qur'an, understand the historical context of the revelation, or translated an Arabic Qur'an into my language.
Since there is only one Truth, if there is disagreement between two parties claiming to possess Truth, at least one side is wrong. Those who are wrong yet convince others they are right are misleading.
Agreed. But all sides have failed to be convinced so that means everyone is wrong by your logic.
Like I said. If every single group of Muslims was correct who claimed that a different group of Muslims weren't "true Muslims" or weren't getting the whole truth, and that each group accused by another group of not being "true Muslims" were to disappear off the face of the earth, then not a single Muslim would exist on this planet.
<b></b> -
Do you think that God (37) is talking about BASIC RULES ? If BASIC RULES (marriage, salat etc) are hard to understand then what is easy to understand ?
a) IF BASIC RULES = EASY TO UNDERSTAND then problem is within us or... I don't know
b) IF BASIC RULES = HARD TO UNDERSTAND then the same was for Muhamed. So Hadiths are word of God. But it cant be true because God says clearly QURAN ALONEWhen you said you disagree with 1st paragraph can you tell me exactly why do you disagree ? Which point ?
well maybe you need to define what is so basic about basic?
if you define marriage as basic, Allah SWT has questioned it when he revealed to the world the concept of 3eesa AS..
maybe you need to have a paradigm shift..wallahua3lam
-
well maybe you need to define what is so basic about basic?
if you define marriage as basic, Allah SWT has questioned it when he revealed to the world the concept of 3eesa AS..
maybe you need to have a paradigm shift..wallahua3lam
I define marriage as basic because it define our life in this life and in next life. With marriage you just start a new chapter of your life. God sent Quran to us to make a good life for us. Marriage, salat, dress code etc are basic elements of a good life. If God sent Quran and other scriptures to make a good life for us than why basic elements of a good life are not easy to understand ? If marriage is not basic what could be more basic than marriage ? Even a non-muslim would agree about it. If marriage is part of "not easy understanding" verses than what could be part of "easy understanding" verses ?
Peace to all
-
If marriage is not basic what could be more basic than marriage ? Even a non-muslim would agree about it.
IMO
Life is a basic necessity,
Freedom of choice is another basic necessityand those two are there for a reason to test our choices/decisions.
we are created to make choices, and if the choices we make are correct then we served our purpose.correct is defined by an absolute authority, that guides to the straight path
if choices are made because of external authority other than the absolute, then we are taking the rights of the absolute to guide that chooser..i have a hunch, that is closer to certainty. that the Quran emphasizes with clarity on those two fundamental notion.
i'm sure that the Quran deals quite clearly without any shadow of a doubt about the infringements of those two fundamentals rights and the actions that are needed to be taken against themother than that such as salat, marriages, are peripheral needs, it would serve to sharpen the fundamental ideas..
wallahua3lam
-
Peace Magnus.
Often people confuse "Truth" with -ways and means to serve/seek GOD-!
Of course there is only one truth " Following GOD Alone". Falsehood is " Following other...than GOD".
However there are many "ways" to GOD
2267 For each congregation/people, We have decreed a set of rites/rules that they must uphold. ( to test their loyalty to GOD ALONE!) Therefore, they should not dispute with you. You shall continue to invite everyone to your Lord ( GOD ALONE!) Surely , you are on the right path.? (If you invite to GOD Alone)
2268 If they argue with you , then say? GOD is fully aware of everything you do.? ?
2269 God will judge among you on the day of Resurrection regarding all your disputes.?
Just because believers disagree on certain matters, does not mean there are not following the truth, providing they uphold the "basic commandments". GOD has clearly set out a criteria for " submission= Islam" and " belief= Iman".
GOD knew there will be disagreements as long as we are " humans" that is why HE keeps saying HE is " Forgiver most Merciful".
Peace.
-
peace,
Do you think that God (37) is talking about BASIC RULES ? If BASIC RULES (marriage, salat etc) are hard to understand then what is easy to understand ?
a) IF BASIC RULES = EASY TO UNDERSTAND then problem is within us or... I don't know
b) IF BASIC RULES = HARD TO UNDERSTAND then the same was for Muhamed. So Hadiths are word of God. But it cant be true because God says clearly QURAN ALONEWhen you said you disagree with 1st paragraph can you tell me exactly why do you disagree ? Which point ?
Yes, 37 is talking about core principles and basic rules. Basically, all verses in which there is only one possible interpretation, e.g. "take care of the orphans..." no-one can interpret that to mean imprison unjustly them or do not give them any help etc.
In my view it is (a).
I disagreed with the specific things you cited as well as the gist. As I said, much of the opinions out there are unevidenced. If one wishes to take a post on a public forum as variance/problematic, that is up to them. Personally, I prefer to distinguish between the wheat from the chaff.
-
w/salaam,
However in your second point you remind me of some who claim that only Muslim scholars should be trusted with the interpretation of the Qur?an and who reject the views of all others. If you want to rely on 3;7 then there is no need to hold those as more reliable who write long articles. Also not everyone likes to write article as an authority, as there is always the risk of unintentionally misleading others.
The Qur?an warns us about those who with their eloquence impress many yet they are hypocrites and their aim is to cause discord. Take as an example the discussion of Ramadan on this forum where many, who profess knowledge, have been misleading others by their twisted take on Ramadan.
Easy to understand ayats elucidates the implication of the lunar month and only those who witness, it clarifies the meaning of days to be counted within this month for fasting. It also specifies when to eat and drink and when to stop and when having sex is allowed yet those in whose heart is a disease would follow that of it which is unspecific.
In addition there are those in this forum who want everyone to stop mentioning Muhammad and instead take them as the authority. Perhaps this kind of heedless speculation is what caused Bukhari and Muslim to dig out hadiths to stop people from blowing their own trumpets.Peace
In case I was not clear, by "detailed article" I was referring to "sufficient evidence" backing their claims, not necessarily an article as such.
And I agree that the likely scenario is that Hadith, in part, gained prominence to variance. This is discussed in various books, e.g. http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/Rethinking_Tradition_Modern_Islamic_Thought.htm
-
Hi all
First of all - the reason why i opened this topic is because I AM CONFUSED for everything. I thought that everything was clear to me until I became a Quranist. But now as a Quranist i realized that there are things in Quran that we are having trouble to understand. Yes Quran is the word of God and I guess that is OK not understanding 100% of Quran (for example I think that we never can understand the truth about spirit, jinn, seven heavens etc.) But there are rules about life that determine if we'll spend next life in heaven or hell or purgatory. And those rules that determine our next life are in Quran with no doubt and if we want to be in heaven we should follow these rules because these rules determine THE TRUTH. And my concept about TRUTH is TRUTH IS SINGLE. So there is just one truth - one rule to follow or one "stairway to heaven".And according to Quran 5417 we can learn that Quran is easy to understand and I guess that has e meaning and the meaning is RULES OF LIFE ARE CLEAR. When I'm saying "rules of life" I mean rules for marriage, divorce, sex (before or after marriage), pray, zaqat, punishment of thieves, adultery etc etc. So there are supposed to be clear to understand. But wait a minute. Now what we have ? We have Quranists that pray 2 times, 3 times, 4 times, 5 times a day and all of them have "Qurans arguments". We have those who think that sex before marriage is haram and those who think that sex before marriage is allowed and those who think that sex before marriage is adultery or fornication and the punishment is 100 lashes. We have Quranists who think that the verse 415-16 is talking about adultery or public sex or gay or even public gay sex or ... such different things. Those who think that woman should cover only private parts or cover hair or....quranists who give zekat in every different amount, those who pray according to "hadiths way", "rashad khalifas way", "qurans way" or "own way", those who agree with polygamy and those with arguments against it, those who agree to cut thief hands and those who think that it has figurative meaning, those who think that 4119 is talking about tattoo,cloning (physic meaning) and those who think that 4119 is talking about "mind changing" or some figurative meaning, those who are against wife beating and those who agree to beat wife if she doesn't fill Qurans order etc etc. And as you can see I'm not talking about "minor rules", I'm talking about "major rules" which determine our life. Lets check out
587
O ye who believe! make not unlawful the good things which Allah hath made lawful for you, but commit no excess for Allah loveth not those given to excess.Are we making unlawful the good thing that God made lawful for us (like reducing nr. of salat etc) ?
5417
And We have indeed made the Qur'an easy to understand and remember then is there any that will receive admonition?When we are finding "our own version" about a rule we should remember that there is just one version of truth - TRUTH IS SINGLE. And according to 5417, " our mission of finding the truth from Quran" is easy. So why are we having trouble determining MAJOR RULES ? I think that WE ARE WRONG. I don't know where is the defect but there is a hole in all of this and I'm pretty sure. That comes from me because I don't think that God's Plan was wrong projected. If God says in Quran that Quran is easy to understand and we are having trouble on it there are two options a)God is wrong; b)We are wrong. We cannot consider option a) as an option so we have just b). OK we can say that we're finding Quran easy to understand but it sounds hypocrite from us when we have so many different group of people with their own way of life and all of them with arguments from Quran. How can be truth easy to understand and at the same time it is interpreted in every possible different way. It seems contradict to me.
I'm 100% sure that We have the same Quran that Muhamed had about 1400 years ago with the same words. So now I'm thinking if Muhamed was like "one of us". I mean did he pray one day 5 time a day and than found out that he was wrong because in Quran are mention only 3 ? Did he know 100% sure number of salat, how to pray, definition of marriage, adultery or fornication etc. Did he know if 4119 is talking about figurative or physic meaning and the same for cut hands of thieves ? Did he know if anal sex is forbidden or he just studied Quran to find the truth in the same way that we are studying these days ? Or maybe there are hadiths that for hundred years corrupted arabic language, Quran and everything that has to do with islam ? And if that's true so how can this verse make sense in these days
159
We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption)I know that if we search hadiths everything would be "clear" but in a bad-corrupted way. But in other side if we follow Quran alone we have many many different rules contradicting each other and at the same time we are breaking 5417. So where are we wrong ? Anyone has any explanation ?
Thanks for reading and peace to all
You are trying to folow the Quran the same way you were following Sunni Islam or Shia Islam. You seem to think that rituals are a goal of their own when in fact its a means to an end. This is whay Paul in the Gospel struggled with the Law since he came from a Pharisaic background and assumed that everything had to be ritualistic and legalistic. Many Quranist who cme from Islamic or Judaic background find themselves looking for some form of ritualism which they assume is how religions should be understood. There is no evidence from the Quran that such should be the case. Rituals are a means to an end. A person can jog, swim, play tennis or do something else to excercise. He can do it everyday or every other day. He can spend half an hour or tow hours when he trains. He can even do a combination of excercising. The goal is to be fit. The same with rituals in the Quran. There is no right way or wrong way as how Muslims understand it.
-
You are trying to folow the Quran the same way you were following Sunni Islam or Shia Islam. You seem to think that rituals are a goal of their own when in fact its a means to an end. This is whay Paul in the Gospel struggled with the Law since he came from a Pharisaic background and assumed that everything had to be ritualistic and legalistic. Many Quranist who cme from Islamic or Judaic background find themselves looking for some form of ritualism which they assume is how religions should be understood. There is no evidence from the Quran that such should be the case. Rituals are a means to an end. A person can jog, swim, play tennis or do something else to excercise. He can do it everyday or every other day. He can spend half an hour or tow hours when he trains. He can even do a combination of excercising. The goal is to be fit. The same with rituals in the Quran. There is no right way or wrong way as how Muslims understand it.
Peace Bigmo...
Thank you for your explanation...I have been feeling the same way...like "How can I worship Allah (swt) if I have no guidelines on how to do it?" It is hard to leave the rituals behind when they have been a part of my life for the last 2 years.
-
Just because believers disagree on certain matters, does not mean there are not following the truth, providing they uphold the "basic commandments". GOD has clearly set out a criteria for " submission= Islam" and " belief= Iman".
I think you are wrong. Allah has defined in the Quran what our "deen" is, and He inspires some to understand it, at least in part. Anyone upholding anything else than what Allah means for us to follow is astray, the only question is to what degree. (Fortunately Allah sits in judgement over how far we are permitted to stray before we no longer will receive His forgiveness.) The Truth inherent in the correct opinions held by somebody does not in any way "rub off" onto the false ideas the very same person might simultaneously uphold. My point is that someone's claim to be a Quran-alone monotheist doesn't lend any validity to this person's false ideas/erroneous beliefs. Falsehood is falsehood no matter who spreads it.
-
Peace Magnus.
I also hapen to agree with Bigmo. Please read his post. Rituals are not the most important things in " Deen". Submission to the Creator is.
Peace.
-
You are trying to folow the Quran the same way you were following Sunni Islam or Shia Islam. You seem to think that rituals are a goal of their own when in fact its a means to an end. This is whay Paul in the Gospel struggled with the Law since he came from a Pharisaic background and assumed that everything had to be ritualistic and legalistic. Many Quranist who cme from Islamic or Judaic background find themselves looking for some form of ritualism which they assume is how religions should be understood. There is no evidence from the Quran that such should be the case. Rituals are a means to an end. A person can jog, swim, play tennis or do something else to excercise. He can do it everyday or every other day. He can spend half an hour or tow hours when he trains. He can even do a combination of excercising. The goal is to be fit. The same with rituals in the Quran. There is no right way or wrong way as how Muslims understand it.
It's not my point ! I'm not saying we should follow hadiths because God says clearly that The Quran is the only book we must follow. But when we follow Quran Alone we are having problems for understanding "easy understanding" words. I'm just trying to find where is the defect or the hole in our situation. Maybe is influence of hadiths for more than 1000 years and arabic language is corrupted but in this case we are breaking 159 - it does not make sense to me. If arabic language is not corrupted how could Muhamed understand Quran without hadiths ?? He was in the same situation like us today (salat 5 times, 4 times ,3 times). I think Muhamed had an answer for everything but I don't know how ??
-
I also hapen to agree with Bigmo. Please read his post. Rituals are not the most important things in " Deen". Submission to the Creator is.
I have read Bigmo's post, but I'm not necessarily talking about rituals though. As you yourself pointed out, submission to the Creator is central. Anyone who falsely make things up about the Lord, or perpetuates lies others have made up about Him(*), is surely in error and not in submission to the expressed will of Allah at all, despite all claims to the contrary.
(* or His prescribed deen, or His books, prophets, messengers etc...)
-
Peace Magnus.
I also hapen to agree with Bigmo. Please read his post. Rituals are not the most important things in " Deen". Submission to the Creator is.
Peace.
Peace Good logic
Maybe rituals are not the most important things "in deen" but ritual are IMPORTANT. I know that the most important things are God alone, Quran alone, not killing etc, but come on... Rituals, marriage are our elements of good/bad life. And God sent Quran to make a good life for us. How can be our life good if we don't understand Quran words about elements of a good life ? Do you understand that we are missing the point ? According to Quran there is only one truth - only one way of good life. Yes we can commit pornography or fornication and we can say we are happy and we have a good life. But for God this is not good life. Every possible path is wrong except the right path and the right path is written in Quran. Thats all
