shahr ramadan - 3 or 10 days of abstention

Wakas

peace scared,

from http//www.free-minds.org/Old/articles/science/timing.htm

A common misconception is that the word "shahr" means month. However, the term "shahr" doesn't mean month. According to Classical Arabic dictionaries, the Arabs used to call the moon "shahr". But what phase of the moon does the word "shahr" imply?

Classical Arabic Dictionaries deal extensively with the etymology of the word "shahr". For instance in the discussion of "shahr", it gives "ash-harat", a derivative of "shahr", as meaning a pregnant woman whose belly is round. It also gives the meaning of "shahira(t)" as a big wide woman. It also gives the meaning of "ash-har" as the bright white color of flowers. The primary meaning of the word "shahr" is "something obvious", "something public", "something wide", and "something bright". Hence, all the etymology of the Arabic word "shahr" indisputably and clearly points to it being the obvious, wide, round, and bright full-moon and not the thin, unobvious, and dim new crescent moon.

You can look up lane's lexicon http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm

Shiin-ha-Ra = make it notable/known/manifest/public/infamous (in a bad or good sense), hire/contract for a month, stay a month, month old, month, new moon, moon, full moon, any evil thing that exposes its author to disgrace, a vice/fault or the like, big & bulky, reputable/eminent.

shahr n.m. (pl. shuhur and ashur) 2185, 2185, 2194, 2194, 2197, 2217, 2226, 2234, 492, 52, 597, 92, 95, 936, 936, 3412, 3412, 4615, 584, 654, 973

LL, V4, p 336, 337

unknownuser

peace scared,

from http//www.free-minds.org/Old/articles/science/timing.htm

You can look up lane's lexicon http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm

Oh my goodness...another hadith falsely attributed. I just don't get how some people actually learn Arabic and STILL believe what they were told.

Thank you Wakas...that is greatly appreciated.

noshirk

salam

I will try to traduce part of the french article found here (http//nawaat.org/portail/2012/07/24/ibadat-el-chouyoukhs-5-la-grande-utopie-de-la-reforme-et-le-bonus-dukhanus/)

Let begin with this verse

2187 It has been made lawful for you during the night of fasting to approach your women sexually. They are a garment for you and you are a garment for them. God knows that you used to betray your souls so He has accepted your repentance, and forgiven you; now you may approach them and seek what God has written for you. And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete the fast until night; and do not approach them while you are devoted in the temples. These are the boundaries of God, so do not transgress them. It is thus that God clarifies His revelations to the people who they may be righteous.

We can note that drinking and eating until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn doesn?t mean clearly that we can?t no more eat at all after. This kind of deduction would make the interdiction of approaching women redundant.

Now, the true definition of fasting is given here

1926 "So eat and drink and be happy. If you see any human being, then say 'I have vowed an abstinence for the Almighty, so I will not talk today to any of mankind.'"

Comparison between of two descriptions of the same miracle of God

1910 He said "My Lord, make for me a sign." He said "Your sign is that you will not speak to the people for three nights consecutively."

And
341 He said "My Lord, make for me a sign." He said "Your sign is not to speak to the people for three days except by symbol, and remember your Lord greatly, and glorify at dusk and dawn."

Leads to deduce that Zachariah was already fasting (not speaking) during day.

Comparaison of
2183 O you who believe, fasting has been decreed for you as it was decreed for those before you, perhaps you may be righteous.2184 A few number of days; however, if any of you is ill or traveling, then the same number from different days; and as for those who can do so but with difficulty, they may redeem by feeding the needy. And whoever does good voluntarily, then it is better for him. And if you fast it is better for you if only you knew.

and

2203 And remember God during a few number of days. Whoever hurries to two days, there is no sin upon him; and whoever delays, there is no sin upon him if he is being righteous. And be aware of God, and know that it is to Him that you will be gathered.

Using the marker ?few number of days? (Ayyamm maadoudat) leads to identify also remembering god few days with siyyam

So fasting is a spiritual retreat.
The rest of proofs comes from the meaning of Ramadan.

From Arabic dictionary, we found that
.
.

Ramadhyou means first rains after the summer.
So Shahr Ramadan can mean, according to ayman?s meaning of shar, the full moon of September.

The expression laylatou el Qadr can also mean the night of perfect measure between day and night, wich would be the autumn equinox. The expression Qadr is used many times to mean measure (54-49) and expressly use for measure between days and night length in verse

7320 Your Lord knows that you rise a little less than two thirds of the night, and half of it, and one third of it; and a group of those who are with you. And God measures (YOUKADDIROU) the night and the day??

We know that shahr Ramadan and laylatou el Qadr (night of decree ??) are the same since it is when quran was revealead and it is when angels and spirit descent.

Using dates and verse 19-25, we knows that rouh (spirit) descended on Issa on a day where dates are rutab. Also that period.
The announce of issa to meriem was done during a retreat (3-45 and 19-16 and 19-21). The birth of issa was during another retreat (19-22)

The annonce of Yahia to Zachariah was also, as we have seen, during the period of retreat.

The ten days of retreat are clearly emphasized for Moses during a period of revelation (7-142). (yom kippour ? is around this period)

The verse 2-196 seems to indicate that fasting and hajj are at the same period.
Hajj is here with the meaning of debate and a kind of festival where unbelievers are called to debate with muslims making the Hajj.

Another interesting coincidence is that there is a jewish festival during the full moon just after the equinox of autumn. And the more interesting is that this festival is called souccot and that souccout means silence in Arabic.

so Hajj and fasting are the ten days dedicated to god and to his message by spititual retreat or debating with unbelievers.

Peace

justamuslim

2184 A few number of days; however, if any of you is ill or traveling,
then the same number from different days;

But I do see where the idea of fasting the entire month came from
2185 A month of aspiration, in which the Qur?an was revealed; as a guide to the people and clarities from the guidance and the
Criterion. Therefore, whoever of you witnesses the month, then let him fast therein.

interesting that God says 'few' or 'certain' number of days but doesn't specify the exact number. Nothing stopped or prevented God from making clear 3, 10, 30, 40 days. So why didn't He? Didn't God most knowledgeable, know that we would be having this discussion?

What this tells me is that the number is not that important. Focus is on attaining piety. You can fast for 365 days which is fine but still at the end, you will have to stand account to how you lived your life, the good works you have done measured against the bad. God makes it clear what He loves and what He hates. Who the inmates of heaven are and who inmates of hell are.

Is there a separate heaven for those who fasted 3 days verses those who fasted 5 days vs 30 days vs 40 days, etc? Number of days for fasting is not the means to the end. It is just a tool to achieve the goal at the end.

when we get conversation like this, reminds me of the story when God commanded people to kill a cow. instead of just going and killing a cow, people wanted details about the age, color, etc. just the same, when God says to fast a certain number of days, why not just fast a number of days. for me, it could be 3 days. for you, it could be 10. for someone else it could be 20. if a group or community of people got together and decided ok - let's make it 13, would God not accept?

Ok - to make a point...let's say the correct translation is for x number of days but then you fast for only y days. So, you believe God is going to be upset with you for that? And what consequences does God say will be?

unknownuser

interesting that God says 'few' or 'certain' number of days but doesn't specify the exact number. Nothing stopped or prevented God from making clear 3, 10, 30, 40 days. So why didn't He? Didn't God most knowledgeable, know that we would be having this discussion?

What this tells me is that the number is not that important. Focus is on attaining piety. You can fast for 365 days which is fine but still at the end, you will have to stand account to how you lived your life, the good works you have done measured against the bad. God makes it clear what He loves and what He hates. Who the inmates of heaven are and who inmates of hell are.

Is there a separate heaven for those who fasted 3 days verses those who fasted 5 days vs 30 days vs 40 days, etc? Number of days for fasting is not the means to the end. It is just a tool to achieve the goal at the end.

when we get conversation like this, reminds me of the story when God commanded people to kill a cow. instead of just going and killing a cow, people wanted details about the age, color, etc. just the same, when God says to fast a certain number of days, why not just fast a number of days. for me, it could be 3 days. for you, it could be 10. for someone else it could be 20. if a group or community of people got together and decided ok - let's make it 13, would God not accept?

Ok - to make a point...let's say the correct translation is for x number of days but then you fast for only y days. So, you believe God is going to be upset with you for that? And what consequences does God say will be?

You make a valid point. I just read an article that pointed out places in the Qu'ran where specific numbers were given where needed. I also agree...there is no stated punishment for not observing a fast (although some would say that one has to fast for 60 days and feed the poor as expiation).

For the first time in my short life, I actually looked up a lunar calendar to see what the moon phases actually looked like.

With Peace,

Amina

farida

I intended to quote that along with my previous post...interesting how there is an interpretation of full moon, yet the hadith says "crescent moon." If anyone can prove that the word/phrase in the Qu'ran means full moon, then you have my undivided attention.

Salaam Amina

No one has been able to prove that Shar means full moon (what you usually see in the middle of the lunar cycle) Shar refers to the full moon cycle.
For the meaning of Ramadan see this link
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604078.msg302095#msg302095

If you do a search on the word by breaking it up into its vowels "Rama" & "Dan", you will find it has Hebrew meaning to it

Rama = Supreme
Dan = Judge

Month of "Supreme Judgement". .

As you confirm that you are very young to know lots of things, naturally people will throw you all sorts of misleading information, so seek refuge in Allah from satan the despised and ask for Allah's guidance when you have any suggestions specially from any forum where all sorts are hiding behind internet curtain

Peace

unknownuser

Salaam Amina

No one has been able to prove that Shar means full moon (what you usually see in the middle of the lunar cycle) Shar refers to the full moon cycle.
For the meaning of Ramadan see this link
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604078.msg302095#msg302095

If you do a search on the word by breaking it up into its vowels "Rama" & "Dan", you will find it has Hebrew meaning to it

Rama = Supreme
Dan = Judge

Month of "Supreme Judgement". .

As you confirm that you are very young to know lots of things, naturally people will throw you all sorts of misleading information, so seek refuge in Allah from satan the despised and ask for Allah's guidance when you have any suggestions specially from any forum where all sorts are hiding behind internet curtain

Peace

??? I am confused as the reference to the Hebrew meaning...the Qu'ran is in Arabic...and why has no one been able to prove that is what it means?

farida

??? I am confused as the reference to the Hebrew meaning...the Qu'ran is in Arabic...and why has no one been able to prove that is what it means?

Salaam Amina
I beleive that Ramadan is the name of the month which was know to people when the Qur'an was revealed, which could mean this month was already known to Jews and Arabs as the month of "Supreme Judgement.
There are lots of names and words in Hebrew which sound or mean same as it is in Arabic for eg Yaqob, Sarah, Ishaq, Shalom Aleikhem etc .
Peace

unknownuser

Wa Salaams Farida,

Got it! Thanks for breaking that down for me. )

justamuslim

As you confirm that you are very young to know lots of things, naturally people will throw you all sorts of misleading information, so seek refuge in Allah from satan the despised and ask for Allah's guidance when you have any suggestions specially from any forum where all sorts are hiding behind internet curtain

i sure wouldn't put down someone because of their age. there are 13 year olds on this forum who know a lot having a deep understanding of God's words. you can learn much from these youggins who are not corrupted unlike some older ones.

unknownuser

i sure wouldn't put down someone because of their age. there are 13 year olds on this forum who know a lot having a deep understanding of God's words. you can learn much from these youggins who are not corrupted unlike some older ones.

And maybe I should have clarified that I meant "inexeperienced" as far as my knowledge of Islam. I am 34 years old...not exactly old, but definitely old enough to know better

I am starting to figure out just who certain characters are on the forum...and I take with a grain of salt where I can.

Peace,

Amina

Wakas

w/salaam noshirk,

The verse 2-196 seems to indicate that fasting and hajj are at the same period.
Hajj is here with the meaning of debate and a kind of festival where unbelievers are called to debate with muslims making the Hajj.

Another interesting coincidence is that there is a jewish festival during the full moon just after the equinox of autumn. And the more interesting is that this festival is called souccot and that souccout means silence in Arabic.

so Hajj and fasting are the ten days dedicated to god and to his message by spititual retreat or debating with unbelievers.

You do realise on the one hand you imply fasting is silence yet on the other say hajj is about debate. A silent debate?

noshirk

to wakas

2-196 is clear.
People who make Hajj don't have to fast.
People who make omra to Hajj (for business for example) have to do it at return

in arabic imara is building for people. Omra is a presence in Hajj for a purpose other than debating

see
919 Have you made the watering of the pilgrim and the "imara" of the Restricted Temple the same as one who believes in God and the Last Day and he strives (jahada) in the cause of God? They are not the same with God. And God does not guide the wicked people.

peace

Wakas

to noshirk,

http//www.islam-and-muslims.com/articles/Quran-2196-critical-thinking.html

....then whoever benefited/enjoyed in/by/with the 3uMRa to the HaJJ then what is easy of the HaDY, so whoever couldn't find (singular) then an abstinence/fast three days during the HaJJ and seven when you (plural) returned, this is a complete ten......

peace

noshirk

to wakas

I agree.
HADY before and if no Hady then saoum of the 10 required days for people who make omra to the Hajj.

i gone too fast on this matter but i knew it.
Omra (for example as simple visitor) is better than staying at home.
A HADY can dispense from spiritual retreat. If no Hady, then spiritual retreat of 3 days is asked there and the seven last at return.

Notice that a person at Hajj who is not there for debating and can't do Hady is probabbly a simple visitor (not a buyer of something) and have to think on what he heard.

This explanation seems logical.

peace

Salam

noshirk

in verse 2197

yusuf ali

For Hajj are the ASHUHUR well known. If anyone undertakes that duty therein let there be no obscenity nor wickedness nor wrangling in the Hajj. And whatever good ye do (be sure) Allah knoweth it. And take a provision (with you) for the journey, but the best of provisions is right conduct. So fear Me, O ye that are wise.!

The question for me is what does Allah means by "Ashhur maaloumet (well known)"

does he mean ?

Make deductions using Koran
see hadiths
see my old books (torah for example)
something else ?

peace

ayman

Peace Noshirk,

The question for me is what does Allah means by "Ashhur maaloumet (well known)"
does he mean ?

Make deductions using Koran
see hadiths
see my old books (torah for example)
something else ?

With the correct translation of "hagg" as "harvest feast", the question answers itself. All people know when their harvest is and therefore when their harvest feast where they thank the god for the harvest and share food with the poor takes place. They also know that during the harvest time when food is plentiful, it is also the best time to restrict hunting so as to preserve wild life while at the same time have alternative source of food. They also know that this is the time where lifestock is most plentiful. On the other hand, no one on earth knows when those mysterious "debates" or "pilgrimages" might be ).

Peace,

Ayman