The Challenge Yet To Be Met

Bodhisvasti

Peace Bodhisvasti.

You need to know about the " Original sin". GOD to start with ( Before this life) created beings that make up their own minds.

GOD s system( was/is and always will be ) is that HE Alone sustains HIS creation. HE requires total trust /loyalty and obedience.

We doubted that HE alone can be" The Only GOD". We were willing ( our own choice)to accept others of HIS creation as " gods/authority" ie we rebelled against HIS system. ( Original sin)

GOD also knew that some will redeem themselves back to HIS system, that is why HE created this universe to give them that chance.

The attributes of GOD indicates why HE creates, gives the choice and allows HIS creations to make their own decisions.

Even in our system , more than one leader leads to division/wars/chaos...

In GOD s system HE is the only GOD/ Authority... That allows unity/order/happiness...

This life is that test. That is why GOD created death. ( First death after the original sin " Heavenly feud", second death after this life then resurrection and offer of choice " GOD or not GOD&quot.

This is all in Qoran. ( Whether GOD knew all along does not affect the choice of HIS subjects/beings/creations.)

Peace.

None of this addresses the fact that God knew, even before Creation, when there was nothing, who would and would not go to Heaven and Hell. That means God knew that if he created in this way, this universe would happen, of if he created that way, that universe would happen. If he created this way, these people would go to hell, or if he created that way, those people would go to hell.

There can be no real test, when the answer to that test is already known before it is even handed out. It would be like writing myself a test, asking when I was born, I already know the answer, so why would I ask myself that?

good_logic

Peace Bodhisvasti.

Let me give you this example, in our system the exam board know the answers and grades to all the questions, (Also the teachers more or less know who is going to pass) .Does this mean do not bother to test the students?

I do not understand your way of reasoning? The two actions are " independent".

Peace.

Eve

Peace Bodhisvasti,

When I read that God knows our future, i understood it as God knows all our possible diferent future depending upon the choices we make. So this doesnt take away our free will. For example the choice whether I should be a believer or not is entirely on me, but God knows the end result of both the possible choices. Whether i choose to beleive or not is entirely on me & this shows that what I choose is not determined by God but God being God knows how my future would be if I a) I choose to be a beleiver b) I do not become a believer.

Hope I was able to explain my understanding.

Peace!

Bodhisvasti

Peace Bodhisvasti.

Let me give you this example, in our system the exam board know the answers and grades to all the questions, (Also the teachers more or less know who is going to pass) .Does this mean do not bother to test the students?

I do not understand your way of reasoning? The two actions are " independent".

Peace.

good logic,

The point of a test is to learn. For God, there is supposedly nothing to learn, for He knows all. Creation is the exam board, and God knows the answers to everything, before even handing out to the test. God knows before creating that exam board, what students will pass, and who will fail. God made those who would take the test, knowing if they would pass or fail, before even making those testers. So why bother testing?

Peace Bodhisvasti,

When I read that God knows our future, i understood it as God knows all our possible diferent future depending upon the choices we make. So this doesnt take away our free will. For example the choice whether I should be a believer or not is entirely on me, but God knows the end result of both the possible choices. Whether i choose to beleive or not is entirely on me & this shows that what I choose is not determined by God but God being God knows how my future would be if I a) I choose to be a beleiver b) I do not become a believer.

Hope I was able to explain my understanding.

Peace!

Eve,

I understand what you mean. But you still don't take into account that God knew before the moment of Creation, what you would think, say, and do, before even creating you. At least, this is the mainstream thought as to Gods omniscience.

So yes, God knows the outcome of your decision, but he also knew the decision you would make in the first place, everything that you would think, say, and do, even before your life began. Before your parents life began, He knew what you would think, say, and do. Before Adam and Eve, he knew what you would think, say, and do.

And to further expand this even more, even before you made it to Heaven, before God created the Universe, He knew all that you would think, say, and do, in Heaven, for all of eternity.

Essentially, this means that God destined people for Hell, and people for Heaven. The only way around this is that God does not know the future, other then what he will do, guarantee. He can't know what you will think, say, and do in the future, or else His very existence is madness. Our making, our having souls, would have to stop this all-knowing in someway, or Creation is pre-destined. God did not have to make this universe, knowing all of this would happen. He could have created that universe, knowing all of that would happen, where all made it to Heaven.

good_logic

Peace Bodhisvasti.

If GOD knew those HE was giving HIS gift to, but they had to deserve it. What is wrong with HIM knowing before hand?

It is for their benefit that HE created. Even though HE knew who deserves and who does not deserve.

It is the only way all the creations get to know" free will".
Peace.

Liha

Salaam Bodhisvasti,

"Essentially, this means that God destined people for Hell, and people for Heaven." I don't think it is quite so clear cut. I think God is aware of all outcomes but has given us the gift of free will to make what we can of our choices and lives. Plus, God has the clear advantage of being our Creator and knowing us, our strengths and weaknesses's and our motivations inside out. We sadly are not privy to the same insight into our Creator other than knowing God is merciful, compassionate and benevolent and does not like lying oppressors!

There are so many factors at play that influence, shape and determine the choices we make faith, personality, circumstances, surroundings, culture, ethnicity, gender and the influence and impact of society & other people and loads more I have not even mentioned. All I can think is how amazing that our Creator is able to factor all these and more before coming to any decision to decide who is worthy of heaven or hell.

I don't doubt that the end result will be just no matter how unjust and nuts the world itself can appear to be at present.

Peace.

Bender

There is no need to go into the Quran and pull out the multiple verses that say God knows everything.

Salaam Bodhisvasti

Then it is easy to give a ayaat if it's in almost every sura.

It's said in just about every Surah, I think.

That's what you think but as per my understanding it's not correct.
Or maybe I have to say that your understanding on those verses is not correct.
Please try to understand them with a clear mind (thus without the concept that you have now about it)

Creation is a pointless experiment, as there is nothing for God to learn. You do not 'test' to see something you already know will come to fruition. You already know the answer. No matter what.

Creation is evil, as God knew before the moment of its beginning, who would and would not go to hell, thus, pre-destination at its highest level.

Again you have a predestinated concept in your mind.

Tell me what do you understand about these verses
2116
2117
2118

Everything has a cause, even the Universe, this I will agree with. However...

Again. If God knows all, then what possible point could there be in creating? Unless there is something in our making that stops him from kinowing what we will do, then we were already destined for Heaven or Hell.

I have thought about it alot lately. And the only conclusion I can come up with is this...

In making us, God created the so called 'free will', that free will being our ability to contemplate, to think and understand a thing. But God can't know what we will think in the future, exactly what we will do, etc. Otherwise it is all for nothing, pointless, and evil.

You see. I can understand and agree with a God who created the Universe, and sentient beings such as ourselves, simply to worship Him. To give the good ever lasting bliss, and the bad ever lasting torture. A God who really loves his Creation, and wants nothing more then for us to earn Heaven.

But this can't exist with knowing everything that we will think, say, and do in the future, before the moment of Creation. Otherwise, that God would have pre-determined us for Heaven and Hell. It simply does not make sense. And it only an evil thing.

Yeah. I see alot of people replying with "Of course we have free will!", but if you believe in an all knowing God, one who knew BEFORE Creation, all that you would THINK, say, and do, then there is no real free will. It means that He destined some of us for Hell, and some of us for Heaven, period. Period. There is no getting around that. We do not have true free will if this was all going to be thought, said, and done in the first place, which it would, simply because God knew all before the moment of Creation.

Let me give you some verses to ponder on.
916
3140
5725

I know there are verses which on first sight you will find them contradicting, but read/study them very carefully and you will inshaAllah understand the concept better and better.

InshaAllah this will help you out a little.

I wanted to do open a thread on this but I have not so much time and I am little bit lazy, but inshaAllah when I have enough time and I am 100% confident on my understanding then inshaAllah I will try to open a thread on this.

Salaam,
Bender

Bodhisvasti

Salaam Bodhisvasti,

"Essentially, this means that God destined people for Hell, and people for Heaven." I don't think it is quite so clear cut. I think God is aware of all outcomes but has given us the gift of free will to make what we can of our choices and lives. Plus, God has the clear advantage of being our Creator and knowing us, our strengths and weaknesses's and our motivations inside out. We sadly are not privy to the same insight into our Creator other than knowing God is merciful, compassionate and benevolent and does not like lying oppressors!

There are so many factors at play that influence, shape and determine the choices we make faith, personality, circumstances, surroundings, culture, ethnicity, gender and the influence and impact of society & other people and loads more I have not even mentioned. All I can think is how amazing that our Creator is able to factor all these and more before coming to any decision to decide who is worthy of heaven or hell.

I don't doubt that the end result will be just no matter how unjust and nuts the world itself can appear to be at present.

Peace.

But it is that clear cut.

Does God know everything, past, present, and future, being that there is nothing at all hidden from God? (Yes or No) Yes.

If yes. Then did God not know before Creation, who would, and would not, go to Heaven or Hell? (Yes or No) Yes.

If yes. Then did God not pre-destine us for Heaven and Hell, when he knew that if he created the universe in this way, all of this would happen, and if he created in that way, all of that would happen? (Yes or No) Yes.

Salaam Bodhisvasti

Then it is easy to give a ayaat if it's in almost every sura.

That's what you think but as per my understanding it's not correct.
Or maybe I have to say that your understanding on those verses is not correct.
Please try to understand them with a clear mind (thus without the concept that you have now about it)

Again you have a predestinated concept in your mind.

Tell me what do you understand about these verses
2116
2117
2118

Let me give you some verses to ponder on.
916
3140
5725

I know there are verses which on first sight you will find them contradicting, but read/study them very carefully and you will inshaAllah understand the concept better and better.

InshaAllah this will help you out a little.

I wanted to do open a thread on this but I have not so much time and I am little bit lazy, but inshaAllah when I have enough time and I am 100% confident on my understanding then inshaAllah I will try to open a thread on this.

Salaam,
Bender

Bender. Next time please post an english translation of any verses you wish to use. No offense, but I feel as if you wasted my time on purpose with those verses. Because they are just more propaganda being pushed out, none of those really addresses God knowing everything. I am trying to find the truth. I want a clear cut answer, preferably from the Quran. All I want, is a logical and rational explanation for the verses saying he knows everything. Because as I have shown you, for that to be, would mean that billions were destined for Hell, eternal suffering, for God knew before making this universe, all who would go there, because he made the universe just so.

For future reference to anyone who replies to this post. Do not post verses that have nothing to do with this conundrum. Just answer the issue directly. Please, and thank you in advance.

"229 It was He who created all that is on the earth for you, then turned
to the sky and made the seven heavens; it is He who has knowledge
of all things."

That is just one verse of many, which say that God has "knowledge of all things".

To have knowledge of all things, this would mean, all things. The past, present, and future, and everything in it.

Do you deny that God knows everything? Or does he only know the past and present, all that is in it, and not the future?

Why don't you try answering the questions above. They are clear cut yes or no questions. You can't get around it.

Someone

Peace all,

612
654
6133

612 Say "To whom is all that is in the heavens and the earth?" Say "To the god." He has decreed mercy on Himself, that He will gather you to the Day of Resurrection in which there is no doubt. Those who have lost their souls, they do not trust.

654 And if those who trust in Our signs come to you, then say "Peace be upon you, our Lord has decreed mercy upon Himself, that any of you who commits a wrongdoing out of ignorance and then repents afterwards and amends, then He is Forgiving, Merciful."

6133 And your Lord is the Rich, possessor of Mercy. If He wished, He could remove all of you and bring after you whom He pleases, just as He established you from the seed of another people.

The all-knowing god decreed mercy upon himself, while endowing us with the ability to acquire knowledge to help ourselves avoid many pains and hardships. He also allows us to try and to commit errors, many times he is forgiving, not punishing for every wrongdoing - else nobody would still be alive.

By "imposing" mercy on himself, the creator wished to share some of his knowledge, control over the laws of nature, decision-making... with humans. It implies that human's future depends mostly (if not solely) on his own cumulative knowledge-decisions-results; Humans acquired some control over nature, contrary to other species. The god certainly knows the (our)past and the (our)present, he also knows our future as soon as we make a decision, only because he restricts himself and allows us a partial freedom of choice.

He knows also that because of our weaknesses, most will end up mis-using this ability and harming themselves and others, thus they would deserve their sufferings.

The creator knows all our possible futures, the list of these possible futures changes in real-time as soon as we make a decision. A trend can then be deduced.

All of this is easy for the creator, no thing is like him.

good_logic

Peace Bodhisvasti.

First, the answer to your questions is YES., YES and YES

So, GOD has got the " video tape" of every little minute detail of what is going to happen. In fact when GOD speaks about Resurrection day, sometimes HE uses the past tense ( in Qoran).

Second, You need to know the following

Who is GOD?

What is Heaven? and What is Hell?

What is Eternity as define by GOD?

Why does GOD create?

Why does GOD not create only the "Good"?

How much knowledge is available for us? Why?

Have we got the knowledge to answer some or all these questions?

Third, GOD asked few things from us among them the following

Trust.
Patience.
Seek HIM for more knowledge.

You are asking a very important question, you may not get your answer, what next?

Does it have to come to trust?

Good luck.

Peace.

mmkhan

Does God know everything, past, present, and future, being that there is nothing at all hidden from God? (Yes or No) Yes.

If yes. Then did God not know before Creation, who would, and would not, go to Heaven or Hell? (Yes or No) Yes.

If yes. Then did God not pre-destine us for Heaven and Hell, when he knew that if he created the universe in this way, all of this would happen, and if he created in that way, all of that would happen? (Yes or No) Yes.

For the red highlighted above, the answer is NO. Because knowing is different than predestining.

Lets say, its like a game, there are many doors to enter, each door has a message sticked on it saying where it takes you. One door's message also says that it may take you directly to the God. Now all participants are allowed to enter any door of their choice. So, what is predestine here? Allah knows that which door each participant will chose to enter, so? It is His knowledge.

Another example lets take a calculator, the maker of it knows that which keys displays what and he also know the results for multiplying, dividing numbers, etc. etc. The user got a choice to press any key and if a user press 2 + 2 the result will be 4 always, even if he loves much to get 5 as a result.

This is how the Creation is made, based on formulas, if you do this, then it will effect you like this and so on. The users are given free choice for what he wants to chose for himself/herself. If user wants to chose something bad, then the effect will surely be bad, that does not mean, TheCreator has predestined this for him.

And 7179 is wrongly quoted previously in this thread.

May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path pr
mmKhan

Liha

For the red highlighted above, the answer is NO. Because knowing is different than predestining.

Lets say, its like a game, there are many doors to enter, each door has a message sticked on it saying where it takes you. One door's message also says that it may take you directly to the God. Now all participants are allowed to enter any door of their choice. So, what is predestine here? Allah knows that which door each participant will chose to enter, so? It is His knowledge.

Another example lets take a calculator, the maker of it knows that which keys displays what and he also know the results for multiplying, dividing numbers, etc. etc. The user got a choice to press any key and if a user press 2 + 2 the result will be 4 always, even if he loves much to get 5 as a result.

This is how the Creation is made, based on formulas, if you do this, then it will effect you like this and so on. The users are given free choice for what he wants to chose for himself/herself. If user wants to chose something bad, then the effect will surely be bad, that does not mean, TheCreator has predestined this for him.

And 7179 is wrongly quoted previously in this thread.

May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path pr
mmKhan

Salaam mmkhan,

Thats a really good way of looking at it. I think its easy to confuse Gods knowledge of our actions as being our predestined fate. I agree that its our choices in life that will determine where we end up.

Peace.

Hoppean

For the red highlighted above, the answer is NO. Because knowing is different than predestining.

How does God know infallibly?

And 7179 is wrongly quoted previously in this thread.

I assume you mean "wrongly" translated? If so, then...

It is not, see Lane's entry; it is synoymous with "kha lam qaf" (to create/to make).
What would your translation of "tha ra alif" be?

mmkhan

How does God know infallibly?

Can you please elaborate your question more?

I assume you mean "wrongly" translated? If so, then...

It is not, see Lane's entry; it is synoymous with "kha lam qaf" (to create/to make).
What would your translation of "tha ra alif" be?

Yes, true brother, I mean wrongly translated not quoted, sorry for that.

I still believe strongly that there are no synonyms in AlQuraan. This Lane and other old books has been written to misguide I think.

"thara-a" means to "left".

7179
7179 And We have certainly left for Hell many of the jinn and mankind. They have hearts with which they do not understand, they have eyes with which they do not see, and they have ears with which they do not hear. Those are like livestock; rather, they are more astray. It is they who are the heedless.

"Left for Hell" does not mean "Created for Hell'. People wanted to go that way as per the detail given further in this aayat, so Allah left them to go that way. Simple as that.

May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path pr
mmKhan

Bender

Bender. Next time please post an english translation of any verses you wish to use. No offense, but I feel as if you wasted my time on purpose with those verses. Because they are just more propaganda being pushed out, none of those really addresses God knowing everything. I am trying to find the truth. I want a clear cut answer, preferably from the Quran. All I want, is a logical and rational explanation for the verses saying he knows everything. Because as I have shown you, for that to be, would mean that billions were destined for Hell, eternal suffering, for God knew before making this universe, all who would go there, because he made the universe just so.

For future reference to anyone who replies to this post. Do not post verses that have nothing to do with this conundrum. Just answer the issue directly. Please, and thank you in advance.

"229 It was He who created all that is on the earth for you, then turned
to the sky and made the seven heavens; it is He who has knowledge
of all things."

That is just one verse of many, which say that God has "knowledge of all things".

To have knowledge of all things, this would mean, all things. The past, present, and future, and everything in it.

Do you deny that God knows everything? Or does he only know the past and present, all that is in it, and not the future?

Why don't you try answering the questions above. They are clear cut yes or no questions. You can't get around it.

Salaam Bodhisvasti,

I am sorry for wasting your time.
Good luck with your research, inshaAllah soon you will find your answer.

Salaam,
Bender

Muddy

Salaam Brother,
You have a very literal linear mind and this causes you much difficulty.
You do question which is good.
like pouring water in to a vessel the water takes on the shape of that vessel.
Just so your logic construction gives a shape to the created and the almighty creator.

Do you think that Allah can be encapsulated by words?
Do you think his infinite wisdom and compassion can be comprehended through logic?
Do you think these limited man made finite vessels such as words and logic can reflect one tenth of his glory?

The Prophet (PBUH) gave us a path to follow, to let go, to surrender our words our logic our systems our con-straining vessels.
We had to caste out (Jihad) not just sin but attachment to all things except the Almighty and by so doing surrender to his will (Muslim)

This path of absolute surrendering to the will of the Almighty is called Islam.
To see what lies on this path one must walk it, not talk about, not debate, not make films about but really walk it!
One must smash apart ones constraing vessel, smash apart ones logic and smash apart ones attachment to limited dualistic logic to get a glimpse of the beloved or to comprehend such questions.

As it is at the moment you will never receive a satisfactory answer! No matter where you look!
Your Ideas and comprehension have taken on the shape of the vessel you transport them in, your words and logic.

Faithful-Jinn

Salaam Bodhisvasti,

I am sorry for wasting your time.
Good luck with your research, inshaAllah soon you will find your answer.

Salaam,
Bender

You're not going to answer his questions? ignore

Anyway the idea that God knows only past and present is ridiculous because that would mean God only experiences past and present.

This would mean that like human beings God is bound by time. We know only what we've already experienced and what we currently are experiencing.

The Abrahamic concept of God does not fit into this idea. God cannot experience time like a human being and still maintain all His attributes.

Bodhisvasti

For the red highlighted above, the answer is NO. Because knowing is different than predestining.

Lets say, its like a game, there are many doors to enter, each door has a message sticked on it saying where it takes you. One door's message also says that it may take you directly to the God. Now all participants are allowed to enter any door of their choice. So, what is predestine here? Allah knows that which door each participant will chose to enter, so? It is His knowledge.

Another example lets take a calculator, the maker of it knows that which keys displays what and he also know the results for multiplying, dividing numbers, etc. etc. The user got a choice to press any key and if a user press 2 + 2 the result will be 4 always, even if he loves much to get 5 as a result.

This is how the Creation is made, based on formulas, if you do this, then it will effect you like this and so on. The users are given free choice for what he wants to chose for himself/herself. If user wants to chose something bad, then the effect will surely be bad, that does not mean, TheCreator has predestined this for him.

And 7179 is wrongly quoted previously in this thread.

May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path pr
mmKhan

Knowing all is not different then predestination. How do you figure that logic?

God knew before making Satan, that he would rebel against him, and cause much suffering for mankind. So why make him?

God knew that he would make Muhammad his messenger, before the moment of the universes very creation. Hence, predestination.

God knew everything that would happen in His creation, before he created, because he would create in 'that way'.

Like I had said before, even this entire thread of this forum was known to God, before creation. I was predestined to start this thread, because this is how God created the universe, knowing all beforehand, that would happen. God did not have to make me, knowing before the very moment of creation, all that I would do. Instead, God could have made me as one of you, defending the irrational idea of an all-knowing God. He simply had to create the universe in a slighty different way.

Satan had no free will, if God had made him, knowing before making him, that he would rebel against his later creation.

Bodhisvasti

Salaam Brother,
You have a very literal linear mind and this causes you much difficulty.
You do question which is good.
like pouring water in to a vessel the water takes on the shape of that vessel.
Just so your logic construction gives a shape to the created and the almighty creator.

Do you think that Allah can be encapsulated by words?
Do you think his infinite wisdom and compassion can be comprehended through logic?
Do you think these limited man made finite vessels such as words and logic can reflect one tenth of his glory?

The Prophet (PBUH) gave us a path to follow, to let go, to surrender our words our logic our systems our con-straining vessels.
We had to caste out (Jihad) not just sin but attachment to all things except the Almighty and by so doing surrender to his will (Muslim)

This path of absolute surrendering to the will of the Almighty is called Islam.
To see what lies on this path one must walk it, not talk about, not debate, not make films about but really walk it!
One must smash apart ones constraing vessel, smash apart ones logic and smash apart ones attachment to limited dualistic logic to get a glimpse of the beloved or to comprehend such questions.

As it is at the moment you will never receive a satisfactory answer! No matter where you look!
Your Ideas and comprehension have taken on the shape of the vessel you transport them in, your words and logic.

"Do you think that Allah can be encapsulated by words?" Yes. We are obviously capable, right now, of figuring out this conundrum through todays language. It's really just that no one seems to be able to rationalise this idea of an all-knowing God without believing in predestination entirely.

"Do you think his infinite wisdom and compassion can be comprehended through logic?" Uhm. Yes? That is what we are doing right now. Isn't it?

"Do you think these limited man made finite vessels such as words and logic can reflect one tenth of his glory?" Yes. It just may take a very long time. But yes, logically, we can use our words to do all of these things.

And I agree. I really don't think I will recieve a satisfactory answer from you, no offense, because you did not help in this topic at all whatsoever.

It is actually you, who refuses to talk about this, because you know such a thing can't be rationalised, yet. At least i'd like to think there is a God, and an Afterlife. But for Him to be all-knowing, would mean our creation is indeed, a movie.

Please don't respond with the typical propaganda that I have gotten from so many that I have asked this question to. Either you know, you don't know, or you just can't believe other then what you have been told, because it may destroy your hope for an eternity after death.

Bodhisvasti

You're not going to answer his questions? ignore

Anyway the idea that God knows only past and present is ridiculous because that would mean God only experiences past and present.

This would mean that like human beings God is bound by time. We know only what we've already experienced and what we currently are experiencing.

The Abrahamic concept of God does not fit into this idea. God cannot experience time like a human being and still maintain all His attributes.

Exactly. But this same concept also makes our entire creation predestined, simply because god knew if he created in this way, all of this would happen, when he very well could have created that way, knowing all of that would happen.

Therefore making the Abrahamic concept of God, either very evil, or very wrong.