I renounced my faith in the divinity of the Qur'an today
-
Peace Faithful-Jinn.
Quote
-You must think then that it is "correct" to own slaves and have sex with female war captives. Also you must think it was "correct" for a grown adult to marry a 6 year old child and marry her at age 9.Show where these are in Qoran? Quote the verses
Peace.
-
I see you chose to ignore the rest of my points. Why is that?
Peace Faithful-Jinn.
Quote
-You must think then that it is "correct" to own slaves and have sex with female war captives. Also you must think it was "correct" for a grown adult to marry a 6 year old child and marry her at age 9.Show where these are in Qoran? Quote the verses
Peace.
Sahih International Translation
O Prophet, indeed We have made lawful to you your wives to whom you have given their due compensation and those your right hand possesses from what Allah has returned to you and the daughters of your paternal uncles and the daughters of your paternal aunts and the daughters of your maternal uncles and the daughters of your maternal aunts who emigrated with you and a believing woman if she gives herself to the Prophet if the Prophet wishes to marry her, only for you, excluding the believers. We certainly know what We have made obligatory upon them concerning their wives and those their right hands possess, in order that there will be upon you no discomfort. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful. (3350)
Clearly we can see here that female war captives are lawful for sex.
I don't have a Qur'an verse to affirm the prophet's marriage to Aisha and her consummation but hadith can be recognized as historical documents if not as divine documents. Of course I'm sure as a Qur'an alone Muslim you will flat out deny anything to besmirch the character of your prophet so I won't even get into that and instead I'll focus on the sex with with female war captives.
In addition I also find it amusing that the Prophet receives special privileges in marriage rights excluding the other believers.
-
Peace Faithful-Jinn.
Sex with anyone is forbidden unless you are married to them. The prophet was allowed to marry from the list. ( Note the list does not mention 6 or 9 year old?)
Peace.
-
Peace Faithful-Jinn.
Sex with anyone is forbidden unless you are married to them.
Incorrect. You could have sex with those whom your right hands possess. There's even another verse explicitly telling you that you can have sex with a woman who is not married to you as long as she is your slave.
Yusuf Ali
Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess Thus hath Allah ordained (Prohibitions) against you Except for these, all others are lawful, provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property,- desiring chastity, not lust, seeing that ye derive benefit from them, give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if, after a dower is prescribed, agree Mutually (to vary it), there is no blame on you, and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise. (424)The prophet was allowed to marry from the list. ( Note the list does not mention 6 or 9 year old?)
Peace.
You do know the Prophet did many things not detailed in the Qur'an right? Historical evidence suggests that Prophet's marriage to Aisha was began at the age of 6 and consummated at the age of 9.
Though like I said in my previous post I'm sure you will disregard anything not in the Qur'an and ignore this information.
-
Peace Faithful-Jinn.
In that particular verse " What your right hand possess" means the one/s you are will marry. It does say " providing you seek them in marriage,"
You are right I do not comment on other sources.
Peace.
-
Peace Faithful-Jinn.
In that particular verse " What your right hand possess" means the one/s you are will marry. It does say " providing you seek them in marriage,"
You are right I do not comment on other sources.
Peace.
What your right hands possess does not mean the ones you will marry. It does not mean that in any other place in the Qur'an nor does it mean that here.
Those whom your right hands possess refers to slaves in every occurrence of the Qur'an and to suggest otherwise is to be intellectually dishonest and willfully ignorant.
Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess
Prohibited to you are women already married, EXCEPT for those whom your right hands possess! It could not be any more clear. And if you had the intellectually honesty to look at Islamic history and the history of Muhammad's own lifetime you would see that this is how the verse was interpreted.
-
Furthermore, you contradict yourself with your own explanations.
Peace Faithful-Jinn.
Sex with anyone is forbidden unless you are married to them.
Peace Faithful-Jinn.
In that particular verse " What your right hand possess" means the one/s you are will marry.
First you said all sex outside of marriage is unlawful which is false. I then provided a clear verse from the Qur'an showing this falsehood. You then say that sex is lawful if you are going to marry that person which is also false.
If you WILL get married to someone you aren't actually married yet which would make any sexual relations unlawful.
Otherwise premarital sex with your girlfriend or fiance' would all be lawful as long as you plan on marrying them.
-
Peace Faithful-Jinn.
I will clarify again what I said. Sex is lawful so long as you are married to each other
There are numerous definitions of " marriage" depending of what tradition/people/part of the world.... you belong.
The verse you provided does not allow sex outside marriage.
Peace.
-
Incorrect. You could have sex with those whom your right hands possess. There's even another verse explicitly telling you that you can have sex with a woman who is not married to you as long as she is your slave.
Yusuf Ali
Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess Thus hath Allah ordained (Prohibitions) against you Except for these, all others are lawful, provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property,- desiring chastity, not lust, seeing that ye derive benefit from them, give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if, after a dower is prescribed, agree Mutually (to vary it), there is no blame on you, and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise. (424)
You do know the Prophet did many things not detailed in the Qur'an right? Historical evidence suggests that Prophet's marriage to Aisha was began at the age of 6 and consummated at the age of 9.Though like I said in my previous post I'm sure you will disregard anything not in the Qur'an and ignore this information.
Salaam,
Do you remember when you got offended after I said that we all are still infected with hadith understanding, you replied with this
When did I ever say I use the sunnah or hadith to understand the Qur'an?! I've always been an outright opponent of hadith literature and the idolatry of the Sunnah. Why else do you think I've been a member of this for years? What an insane and inaccurate assumption about me...
Are you now using hadiths as historical evidence about an age? And hadiths to claim Quran allows sex with slaves ??? ?
Salaam,
Bender -
Peace Faithful-Jinn.
I will clarify again what I said. Sex is lawful so long as you are married to each other
There are numerous definitions of " marriage" depending of what tradition/people/part of the world.... you belong.
The verse you provided does not allow sex outside marriage.
Peace
Where is the evidence? Verses?
-
Peace nimnimak.
I will let you provide me with verses that say Otherwise.
Peace.
-
Failthful-Jinn
If the Qur'an is direct from God how can it be inconsistent?!
It cannot. This would lead us to either a) reject the whole book or b) think that it's been tampered with and there is some truth in there as well as falsehood
Surely if it is the direct word of God you must accept and follow every single letter as perfect and unchangeable wisdom for humanity.
Yes. But We have reason. Whether we accept/reject a scripture should be based on reason. Interpretation of scripture is not as consistent as reason could be IMO. Thus when a verse is read that does not make sense (and never does), then either the scripture is outright wrong thus not diving in inspiration at the particular point OR the interpretation/translation is wrong.
How do you decide which part is consistent and which part is inconsistent?
You use reason and logic.
-
We should allow for this possibility, while not favoring either for or against. This is hard.
You say this but I assume your a Muslim? Which means your belief is making the claim that God is real and then an even bigger leap that the Qur'an is the direct and infallible word of your God.
Don't assume I'm a Muslim. What is a Muslim according to you anyway? This should be clear first.
What is God? Personally, my idea about what God is, is not like the typical fatherly figure in the sky. It is more towards an aware, intelligent, life-force which is always at work, and the we are "tiny extensions" of. I really do not subscribe to the common religions of today, and would not like to identify myself with any one of them. Allah (which to me is a more neutral word, since I was not raised in a Muslim country) is way beyond what people can imagine. Allah is not some God figure full of wrath.
But, if the quran turnes out to be false (not from the creating intelligent force of everything/Allah), then that is good... because it is true. And if the quran turns out to be true, then that is also good, coz it is true.
We must let go of the FEAR of the possibility that the quran is false, and of the possibility that the quran is true. Fear resists truth, in any direction. Fear is created by the mind, our dear mind.cheers
The whole thing about fear you're writing is just your personal opinion. Fear is created by the mind and so is belief.
It is my personal opinion, but that doesn't mean it is not the reality of our minds' make up and characteristic. This opinion comes from observation and study, and I'm certainly not the only one who has this opinion. Have you ever looked into your mind and investigated how it works? I have.
In case you or anyone think they don't have fears in the mind, or that fears don't play a huge part in their minds, then those people are simply not aware enough about the workings of their mind to realize this.You are right. Fears and beliefs are indeed created by the mind, and also nurtured and kept alive there. They arise from personal experiences, up-bringing, interpretation of events etc etc. The key is to see the mind and its thoughts, beliefs, fears etc for what they are.... i.e. just a bunch of programs (often limiting) running in the mind. Our mind is a tool, we are not our minds, although loads of people think so, and are subsequently prisoners to the minds whims.
Peace FJ
-
Yes. But We have reason. Whether we accept/reject a scripture should be based on reason. Interpretation of scripture is not as consistent as reason could be IMO. Thus when a verse is read that does not make sense (and never does), then either the scripture is outright wrong thus not diving in inspiration at the particular point OR the interpretation/translation is wrong.
Whether one believes the scripture is correct or not, the common interpretations and translations of it is unfortunately many times uninspired, biased and simply without sense. That's for sure.
-
Peace Good logic
I will let you provide me with verses that say Otherwise.
Would it not be logical of me to say that the burden of proof is upon you? You are suggesting that something is prohibited in the Quran. I am saying that there is no such prohibition. I don't need to prove anything. You need to prove that there is this prohibition since nothing is prohibited unless specified/implied sufficiently via the Quran.
Please respond with the following in mind
- "Ungarding the furooj (private parts) does not mean to have sex."
- "Having sex is amongst the things that one does by ungarding their private parts."
- "The restriction of who we can unguard our private parts have been narrowed to the MMA (Ma Malekat Aymunkum) and the zawj."
- If it is your claim that we cannot engage in sexual activity with the MMA, then the burden of proof is upon you. You must show that there are restrictions conveying how much, in what way and when one can ungaurd their private parts to the MMA
With regards to the MMA
- Please bear in mind that at 424 we cannot marry the muhsinat women untill they are of MMA
- Also bear in mind that since we can only unguard our private parts to the zawj or the MMA, this means that we cannot allow doctors/surgeons to operate on our private parts or caretakers to look after us with regards to our private parts UNLESS the doctors/surgeons etc. are of either zawj or MMA. Thus if you understand MMA to exclusively mean wife, this causes problems.
My understanding is that the MMA are those whom your oaths possess. This is a literal translation of MMA and it encompass anything from doctors to girlfriends.
This makes sense with regards to the prohibition of the muhsinat at 424 and whether doctors can operate on our private parts.
The following links may be of interest to you
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604063.0
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9599777.750
Peace
-
Whether one believes the scripture is correct or not, the common interpretations and translations of it is unfortunately many times uninspired, biased and simply without sense. That's for sure.
Yes that is true.
Edited (I did not read the previous (zulf's) post properly. Really, really sorry zulf)
-
I see you chose to ignore the rest of my points. Why is that?
Sahih International Translation
O Prophet, indeed We have made lawful to you your wives to whom you have given their due compensation and those your right hand possesses from what Allah has returned to you and the daughters of your paternal uncles and the daughters of your paternal aunts and the daughters of your maternal uncles and the daughters of your maternal aunts who emigrated with you and a believing woman if she gives herself to the Prophet if the Prophet wishes to marry her, only for you, excluding the believers. We certainly know what We have made obligatory upon them concerning their wives and those their right hands possess, in order that there will be upon you no discomfort. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful. (3350)
Clearly we can see here that female war captives are lawful for sex.
I don't have a Qur'an verse to affirm the prophet's marriage to Aisha and her consummation but hadith can be recognized as historical documents if not as divine documents. Of course I'm sure as a Qur'an alone Muslim you will flat out deny anything to besmirch the character of your prophet so I won't even get into that and instead I'll focus on the sex with with female war captives.
In addition I also find it amusing that the Prophet receives special privileges in marriage rights excluding the other believers.
Not exactly, check my post to good logic
-
Peace nimnimak.
Is not the burden of proof also on the one that suggest differently also?
What you provided is your understanding of MMA, not mine. Your understanding of"sex" and your understanding of the points you mentioned.
I have read the links, they do not convince me otherwise either.
I suggest for everyone to study Qoran and make up their own mind on what MMA is and is not. It seems to mean different " what you are responsible for" in different verses with different contexts.
If you choose to have sex outside " marriage/oath...However it is taken" it is up to you.I am not your guardian.
Peace.
-
Peace good logic
Is not the burden of proof also on the one that suggest differently also?
Say you were to suggest....beef is prohibited and I say no it is not. What do I have to prove? Should you not be the one pointing to verses?
Hence I have no burden of proof. But if I am given proof, I either acknowledge it, or the burden of proving it's falseness will fall on me.
I have read the links, they do not convince me otherwise either.
I suggest for everyone to study Qoran and make up their own mind on what MMA is and is not. It seems to mean different " what you are responsible for" in different verses with different contexts.
If you choose to have sex outside " marriage/oath...However it is taken" it is up to you.I am not your guardian.
Fair enough, and I will not further debate with you regarding this as this is not the purpose of this thread.
But should you make assertions such as sex is exclusive to marriage, you should provide evidence or reason for this. Without this, beliefs become dogmas and truths may become buried.Peace
-
Peace nimnimak.
Nevertheless, I shall provide the verses that back up my understanding
You shall encourage those of you who are single to get married. They may marry the righteous among your male and female servants, if they are poor. God will enrich them from His grace. God is Bounteous, Knower.
Those who cannot afford to get married shall maintain morality/chastity until God provides for them from His grace. Those among your servants who wish to be freed in order to marry, you shall grant them their wish, once you realize that they are honest. And give them from God's money that He has bestowed upon you. You shall not force your girls to commit prostitution, seeking the materials of this world, if they wish to be chaste. If anyone forces them, then God, seeing that they are forced, is Forgiver, Merciful.
Like you said in another thread, it is a question of " morality" Quote
As far as I know, so long as he has a good character (is morally strong and beneficient and also rational) , he is a submitter. The Quran in my opinion aids in our understanding/speed of progress with regards to morality.Peace.