Are we going the wrong way ?
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Salaam all,
Firstly, this has been a great post full of insight and interesting perspectives.
So my apologies if this is going slightly off track. Is sunnah not distinct from hadith?
I always thought of sunnah as more the ritualistic aspect of faith. The way we pray, fast, go for haj and offer zakat is based on the practices of the Prophet. These were in place during his lifetime and I assume have not changed hugely in the interim.
While the hadith is basically sayings attributed to the Prophet by third party sources that really came into full force 200 or so years after his death and often contradicts both the sunnah and Quran.
So why are they conflated? Is it to shore up and make the hadith more legitimate?
In fact I recall being taught 6 or 7 hadith tops which were in harmony with the Quran (in my long ago school days in the 80's!) the focus was always more on the Quran. Even in my family the trend was more about the Quran and its value as a book of guidance and grace there was not even one book of hadith in the house and nor were we following the 4 juristic schools--though we did identify as sunni muslims!
Though this seems to have changed in the past 15+ years with the establishment of Al-Huda and other institutes which promote a certain ideological approach to Islam i.e uber conservative interpretations funded by Gulf money and this interpretation has crossed over to the mainstream as being the norm.
Peace.
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Do I take it ( also very kindly meant) That you do not believe in " code 19"?
Please do, because I don't believe in it. I just cannot and would never accept Rashad Khalifa and Edip Yuksel's preposterous claim that two verses weren't actually part of the Quranic revelation. I consider this outright kufr. Please do try to prove this.
P.S. I just saw that you said you have already opened the thread.
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Yes it is easy to understand and its not God's fault. It is our fault because we as quranist are trying to put our own logic on Quran (God's logic). We are not trying to find the theory of God but we are trying to change it. A hadithst is trying to change the facts (Quran) by using hadiths explanation. A Quranist is trying to change the facts by changing Qurans words meaning according to their own logic. Einstein said " If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts ". The problem is that we are creating the theory before searching the facts (Quran). And our theory is based on our own logic. People the problem is WE ARE HAVING TROUBLE ACCEPTING THE REALITY or we just dont like the reality. As I said if Qurans forbid sex before marriage we should not commit it. If we already have done sex before marriage we should ask forgiveness from God. Are we doing it ? No - instead asking forgiveness we are trying to change the facts to make our self feel more comfortable. This is why God mention many times word "forgive" in Quran. In science first step is searching for the facts and the second is creating theory. In Sunni and Shia (hadithists) first step is searching for facts in hadiths, the second is correcting facts in Quran according to hadiths and the third is creating the theory( law in islam). In Quranism the first step is creating the theory and the second is searching for the facts that "support" the theory and the third if there are no facts we change them- we create them. So instead of God's theory (true law) we have our own theory.
Peace!
Very nice comments indeed truthsearcher!
To get the right guidance from the Qur?an, our eyes should be focused, the comprehension should be blank, that is, there should be no preconception. The right path is that no matter what our hearts and minds lean towards, we should never digress from the Qur?an; whatever the Qur?an says is haq (the truth) not what our leanings are; any one who goes to the Qur?an with preconceived ideas with the intention of getting confirmation of those ideas from the Qur?an, can never find the right guidance from the Qur?an.
Quran says about the prophet in 5317; "your sight has neither moved away from the truth nor has it crossed the limit." Prophet's eyes were fully focused on the divine revelation. The word zhagha means "moved away/ distracted". Also in 615 Alamma Zaaghu azaghallahu qulubahum meaning when moved away from God?s path, then the law of God or nature made them lean towards that very path (to which they had deviated). Many of the Quranists (with their eyes distracted) approach the Quran to get confirmation for those ideas their hearts and minds lean towards. They will indeed get "confirmation" for such ideas satisfactory for them because they are the people whose hearts are sealed and distracted by Allah (law of returns) ? ?Have you noticed the one who chooses as his god his own lowly drives? He goes astray despite having knowledge (and reason). (Consequently,) Allah seals his ears and heart, and covers his eyes closed. He can?t find guidance anywhere but with Allah? ? (4523).
Peace!
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Peace!
Very nice comments indeed truthsearcher!
To get the right guidance from the Qur?an, our eyes should be focused, the comprehension should be blank, that is, there should be no preconception. The right path is that no matter what our hearts and minds lean towards, we should never digress from the Qur?an; whatever the Qur?an says is haq (the truth) not what our leanings are; any one who goes to the Qur?an with preconceived ideas with the intention of getting confirmation of those ideas from the Qur?an, can never find the right guidance from the Qur?an.
Quran says about the prophet in 5317; "your sight has neither moved away from the truth nor has it crossed the limit." Prophet's eyes were fully focused on the divine revelation. The word zhagha means "moved away/ distracted". Also in 615 Alamma Zaaghu azaghallahu qulubahum meaning when moved away from God?s path, then the law of God or nature made them lean towards that very path (to which they had deviated). Many of the Quranists (with their eyes distracted) approach the Quran to get confirmation for those ideas their hearts and minds lean towards. They will indeed get "confirmation" for such ideas satisfactory for them because they are the people whose hearts are sealed and distracted by Allah (law of returns) ? ?Have you noticed the one who chooses as his god his own lowly drives? He goes astray despite having knowledge (and reason). (Consequently,) Allah seals his ears and heart, and covers his eyes closed. He can?t find guidance anywhere but with Allah? ? (4523).
Peace!
Salaam,
Highlights from me.
The red highlighted part above contradicts the blue highlighted part. I did not see the mentioning of Prophet in that aayat. Please remember what you said in red part
mmKhan
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Salaam,
Highlights from me.
The red highlighted part above contradicts the blue highlighted part. I did not see the mentioning of Prophet in that aayat. Please remember what you said in red part )
mmKhan
Can you elaboraten more what is exactly the contradiction?
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Salaam all,
Firstly, this has been a great post full of insight and interesting perspectives.
So my apologies if this is going slightly off track. Is sunnah not distinct from hadith?
I always thought of sunnah as more the ritualistic aspect of faith. The way we pray, fast, go for haj and offer zakat is based on the practices of the Prophet. These were in place during his lifetime and I assume have not changed hugely in the interim.
While the hadith is basically sayings attributed to the Prophet by third party sources that really came into full force 200 or so years after his death and often contradicts both the sunnah and Quran.
So why are they conflated? Is it to shore up and make the hadith more legitimate?
In fact I recall being taught 6 or 7 hadith tops which were in harmony with the Quran (in my long ago school days in the 80's!) the focus was always more on the Quran. Even in my family the trend was more about the Quran and its value as a book of guidance and grace there was not even one book of hadith in the house and nor were we following the 4 juristic schools--though we did identify as sunni muslims!
Though this seems to have changed in the past 15+ years with the establishment of Al-Huda and other institutes which promote a certain ideological approach to Islam i.e uber conservative interpretations funded by Gulf money and this interpretation has crossed over to the mainstream as being the norm.
Peace.
I have posted this before
Quranist are either one of those parties
- they only accept the Quran as a religious source.
- They accept the Quran and previous scriptures.
- They accept the Quran and Islamic rituals but not hadiths.
- They accept the Quran and Islamic rituals and hadiths that does not contradict the Quran.
- Not necessarily among any but switch according to specific issues. Most Quranist tend to be in this category, at least the ones here are.
This category seperates the rituals from the hadith. They reason as you did. However there is no evidence that these rituals are prophetic or obligatory or that there was no variance in how they were practiced. In fact Sunni sources says that the early Muslims in mecca prayed twice a day. But you were right that many of these rituals were practiced by Muslims before hadith. But I am not sure how earlier than hadith. These rituals could have been formulated by the Ummayids.
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Please do, because I don't believe in it. I just cannot and would never accept Rashad Khalifa and Edip Yuksel's preposterous claim that two verses weren't actually part of the Quranic revelation. I consider this outright kufr. Please do try to prove this.
P.S. I just saw that you said you have already opened the thread.
Recluse,
Same here. Although I am currently reading some of Edip's stuff, I skip over anything that delves deeply into 19.
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Recluse,
Same here. Although I am currently reading some of Edip's stuff, I skip over anything that delves deeply into 19.
I read Edip's article about Hell not being eternal, which was good.
In fact, even some companions of the prophet like Omar didn't believe Hell was eternal. There is a seperate book about this subject alone, it's called Hadil Erwah. Most sunnis try to downplay such facts. There is also a book about predestination and free will by Hasan al Basri where he completely destroys the traditional sunni argument. A scholar in Turkey has recently translated this into Turkish, it's fantastic.
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Can you elaboraten more what is exactly the contradiction?
Salaam,
Answer was already given in my post. Here the quote again
Salaam,
Highlights from me.
The red highlighted part above contradicts the blue highlighted part. I did not see the mentioning of Prophet in that aayat. Please remember what you said in red part
mmKhan
mmKhan
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I have posted this before
Quranist are either one of those parties
- they only accept the Quran as a religious source.
- They accept the Quran and previous scriptures.
- They accept the Quran and Islamic rituals but not hadiths.
- They accept the Quran and Islamic rituals and hadiths that does not contradict the Quran.
- Not necessarily among any but switch according to specific issues. Most Quranist tend to be in this category, at least the ones here are.
This category seperates the rituals from the hadith. They reason as you did. However there is no evidence that these rituals are prophetic or obligatory or that there was no variance in how they were practiced. In fact Sunni sources says that the early Muslims in mecca prayed twice a day. But you were right that many of these rituals were practiced by Muslims before hadith. But I am not sure how earlier than hadith. These rituals could have been formulated by the Ummayids.
Salaam Bigmo,
Thank you for your reply.
I do agree with you that looking at early Sunni sources does suggest a variance. My cousin was reading a book that suggested that ramadan used to be fixed in February but was changed by the caliph Umar and I also read about their being 2 main prayers which then changed to 5 and then there is a whole host of stuff which can be construed very differently.
Would you be able to suggest books that explore this aspect of early Islam? I would like to read more about it and would appreciate your insights.
Many thanks!
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Salaam Bigmo,
Thank you for your reply.
I do agree with you that looking at early Sunni sources does suggest a variance. My cousin was reading a book that suggested that ramadan used to be fixed in February but was changed by the caliph Umar and I also read about their being 2 main prayers which then changed to 5 and then there is a whole host of stuff which can be construed very differently.
Would you be able to suggest books that explore this aspect of early Islam? I would like to read more about it and would appreciate your insights.
Many thanks!
Try starting with Juynboll, Schacht, Patricia Crone and other orientalist.
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I know that if we search hadiths everything would be "clear" but in a bad-corrupted way. But in other side if we follow Quran alone we have many many different rules contradicting each other and at the same time we are breaking 5417. So where are we wrong ? Anyone has any explanation ?
After watching QuranVsHadith on youtube, I've learned a lot more about the science and history of hadith. I have come to the conclusion that REGARDLESS of following hadith or Quran, people will always pick and choose and have their views. Everyone will personalize their own deen.
Why is that? Well for example, we are under the illusion that hadiths provide solid detailed instructions and information on how to live ourlives and carry out our deen. WRONG. If you open up the book of Sahih Bukhari, and look at the so called authentic hadiths on how to pray, you will find it impossible to even start the takbeer in the beginning of the prayer without some kind of personal view or picking which hadith you want to follow. The reason for that is there are MULTIPLE contradictions in the hadith. If one says prophet Muhammad did so and so, the next one negates it and so forth. So how can one pray according to hadith?
However, on the other hand, the Quran has NO CONTRADICTIONS. The only contradictions are among the people in how they CHOOSE/PERCIEVE/UNDERSTAND the verses in the Quran. This is why there are variations in islamic practices within the quran only community as well as all the muslims around the world.
The only reason why each sect has an established system is due to the early scholars/ullamah that LEAD/SPARKED their own consensus on how Islam should be practiced, by their OWN interpretation and understanding of the Quran and Hadith.
Humans are fallible. We are given a divine scripture and told to ponder on it, read it and apply it. We will never get it right 100%. I've come to conclusion that there is no perfect way of doing it. But just do it the best way that we can while being HONEST to ourselves (not read into the verses and try to see what we want to see).
Allah himself said there are verses that are basic and fundamental which are clear and others which are allegorical and only Allah knows what those allegorical verses mean.
I think TRUTH is SINGLE like you said. Don't forget that among Allah's 99 names is THE Truth!
Therefore Allah is the only TRUTH. So I guess you will only find your answers with Him. Allah Only knows. Allah forgive me for any mistakes I may have said.
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I think TRUTH is SINGLE like you said. Don't forget that among Allah's 99 names is THE Truth!
Therefore Allah is the only TRUTH. So I guess you will only find your answers with Him. Allah Only knows. Allah forgive me for any mistakes I may have said.
Salaam,
hypno
mmKhan
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Salaam,
hypno
mmKhan
Peace mmKhan...
She did ask for forgiveness for any mistakes she made...go easy )
Peace Madiha...
I think the 99 names of Allah is not something based on the teachings of the Qur'an...and that may be what brother mmKhan is getting at. No worries...I was the same way when I first started here...I found that most of what I knew was based on hadith. Just goes to show how corrupted the Sunni faith really is. )
-Amina
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Humans are fallible. We are given a divine scripture and told to ponder on it, read it and apply it. We will never get it right 100%. I've come to conclusion that there is no perfect way of doing it. But just do it the best way that we can while being HONEST to ourselves (not read into the verses and try to see what we want to see).
I like what you write in your post. I agree!
I also think that people often are to quick to demand uniformity in things where it is not needed. People forget that each and everyone is at a different level of understanding at different times in life. Not any one person's world is like any other's. We all have our own different worlds, which are how we perceive things, our past experiences, our perspectives and understandings... and it can never be the same for any two individuals. The things that should unite people, the common denominator, should be direction and intention they have... that is to strive to grow, understand more and better and only spread goodness - the sincere search for truth. In order to spread goodness, one must keep growing and developing as a person, and in one's understanding of self, life, reality. To stagnate in a mold/belief system/understanding is to invite an inevitable decay at every level of oneself.I find it quite interesting to ponder over the fact that if you think you "know it all" and have THE answers and know THE correct religion, then you are indirectly saying that you have the knowledge of God. If you agree that you don't have the knowledge of God, the you'd realize that there will ALWAYS be plenty of room for growth and new understanding. This can be humbling. But religion doesn't teach real humility, coz real humility would threaten the fixed system of religions. Religions only teache a "safe" kind of humility that's designed to make you feel good and proud about yourself.
Peace
Kind regards