Shahr/month in the light of the quran
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Salam Brother Ayman,
Peace sister Marie,
If we believe that the month of ramadhan is one of the four restricted month, then the verse 2189 is clear, the new moons are a timing mechanism for the people and not full moon.
The new moons are timing mechanisms and so is the stop watch. Do we determine when "ramadan"/scorching heat starts based on a stop watch?
Clearly not.
I respect your view but I consider the new moon as the begining of the cycle and it seems logical for me.
Here the occurences of the word alqamara/the moon 677, 96, 754, 124, 132, 1433, 1612, 2133, 2218, 2961, 3129, 3513, 3639.
In all those verses, "qamar" simply means moon. A moon/"qamar" could appear as either full moon/"shahr" or new moon/"hilal" or anything in between.
Ok, this is why I consider that these two following verses are connected
- Initiator of morning and Maker of the night to reside in; and the sun and the moon for counting. Such is the measure of the Noble, the Knowledgeable.
2189 brings an additional information to 696, Allah specifies at which phase of the moon is a timing mechanism for the people and for the
- They ask you regarding the new moons/alahillat, Say ?They are a timing mechanism for the people and for the alhajj.? And piety is not that you would enter a home from its back, but piety is whomever is righteous and come to the homes from their main doors. And be aware of God that you may succeed.
Allah often speaks about the sun and the moon at the same time. I think the word 'alqamar' represents the full moon which appears in stages until it returns to being like an old curved sheath/date-stalk;it is a logical evolution
- Full moon----> 2)manazil (stages)----> 3)crescent like an old curved sheath.
- And the moon We have measured it to appear in stages, until it returns to being like an old curved sheath.
So if there is a partial or full solar eclipse, does the sun cease to exist?
In fact, if you read 3639 carefully in the translation that you quoted, you will see that it refers to none other than the moon/"al-qamar". Hence, it is "al-qamar" that appears in stages (i.e. not as a full moon). This completely demolishes the argument that "alqamar" is ONLY the full-moon. If you read further in 3639, you will see that it is none other than the moon/"alqamar" that looks like an "old curved sheath". Hence, even as an "old curved sheath", it is still "alqamar"/the moon and it refers back to "alqamar". The grammar of the Arabic original of 3639 makes this fact even clearer so please read it patiently.
I think you don't get what I mean because we read 3639 differently. Your sentence is not complete when you said Hence, it is "al-qamar" that appears in stages; we read the moon appears in stages until it returns to being like an old curved sheath.
In other words, the moon through its stages become a crescent like an old curved sheath.Before becoming a crescent , the moon is at 100% of its size. The moon/full moon and its phases are two distinct things and in the same time closely linked.
The moon/full moon is at 100 percent of its size----> then 80 % (phase1) ---->40% (phase 2) --------> until 5% which correponds to the size of a crescent (phase3)...etc.
qamar and hilal are not interchangeable.
Hilal (new moon) comes after the phase described at the end of the verse 3639; an old curved sheath.
full moon(alqamar)--------->an old curved sheath.----->new moon (hilal)----------fullmoon------->an old curved sheath.----->new moon...etc
Allah knows best
Peace
Marie -
Peace be upon you Ayman, Shuiab and all,
Ayman, good respose, it cleared up some of the doubts I had.
Shuiab said
Anyway, the other problem I see about keeping ramadan in a hot month and not keeping it a calendrical month is who determines which is the "hot month." On what basis? Sometimes July is hotter than August, sometimes vice versa. If would differ greatly in different parts of the world. Wouldn't it be utter chaos?Regarding differing in different parts of the world, so does the "salaat" times, but this does not cause utter chaos, everyone is confortable with "thier dawn" wherever they are.
Regarding the "Hot moon cycle", I do not think it is so much related to how we feel the heat, but more regarding the position of the earth with the sun and the star Sirius, which is the brightest star in the sky and is called "the scorcher". Here is a caption from an article about Sirius;
"This star according to Dogon mythology is composed of sagala, a form of metal unknown on earth (the root of Sagala meaning both "Strong" and "Heat"). "
http//www.chennaionline.com/science/dogstar.asp
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Salam sister Marie, all,
Ok, this is why I consider that these two following verses are connected
- Initiator of morning and Maker of the night to reside in; and the sun and the moon for counting. Such is the measure of the Noble, the Knowledgeable.
2189 brings an additional information to 696, Allah specifies at which phase of the moon is a timing mechanism for the people and for the
- They ask you regarding the new moons/alahillat, Say ?They are a timing mechanism for the people and for the alhajj.? And piety is not that you would enter a home from its back, but piety is whomever is righteous and come to the homes from their main doors. And be aware of God that you may succeed.
696 talks about "alqamar" being for counting. Since you claim the "qamar" means full moon, you are inadvertently refuting your OWN argument that "hilal"/new-moon is used for counting the months.
As for 2189, please read 7142 where Moussa is described as achieving/completing the "myqat". Hence, similar to 7142, "mawaqit" in 2189 is talking about the timing for completion of "7ajj" NOT the beginning of "7ajj". Note the relationship between the 10 extra nights in 7142 and the 10 days of "7ajj" in 2196. The fact is that 10 days is how long it takes for the full-moon to reach the crescent stage. Hence, the "ahila"/crescents provide timing for the completion of the "7ajj".
I think you don't get what I mean because we read 3639 differently. Your sentence is not complete when you said Hence, it is "al-qamar" that appears in stages; we read the moon appears in stages until it returns to being like an old curved sheath.
In other words, the moon through its stages become a crescent like an old curved sheath."Hilal" is also a "qamar" but it is a special case of "qamar". Or do you think that when The God says in 2133 that the "qamar" is floating in an orbit, He only means the "full-moon" and NOT the crescent!
Before becoming a crescent , the moon is at 100% of its size. The moon/full moon and its phases are two distinct things and in the same time closely linked.
The moon/full moon is at 100 percent of its size----> then 80 % (phase1) ---->40% (phase 2) --------> until 5% which correponds to the size of a crescent (phase3)...etc.
qamar and hilal are not interchangeable.
Sister, your logic is fallacious because it is like saying that when in Paris you are not in France. The crescent is like Paris and "alqamar"/the moon is like France. The crescent is a stage of the "alqamar" like Paris is a city in France.
I hope that this clarifies any remaining confusion.
Salam and all best wishes,
Ayman.
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Peace brother Kyle,
Regarding the "Hot moon cycle", I do not think it is so much related to how we feel the heat, but more regarding the position of the earth with the sun and the star Sirius, which is the brightest star in the sky and is called "the scorcher".
At this stage, I think that the etymology of the word "ramadhan" suggests that it is the time when the sun is at its highest point of the year (scorching/smallest shadow) and the days are longest and this happens on the summer solstice. Hence, the first full-moon after the summer solstice would be the full-moon of "ramadhan". There are other signs that talk about the relationship between the sun and the shadow as one of "guide". As for the "scorcher/bright/penetrating", it could describe many things other than Sirius.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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Salam brother Ayman, all,
696 talks about "alqamar" being for counting. Since you claim the "qamar" means full moon, you are inadvertently refuting your OWN argument that "hilal"/new-moon is used for counting the months.
I'm not sure if you get it. "alqamar" is for counting but at which phase? the response is in 2189 the new moon is a timing mechanism for the four restricted month. The month of ramadhan is a restcited month, consequently the new moon is a timing mechanism for the month of ramadhan.
Allah said that the new moons are a timing mechanism for the people and for Alhajj.? For Alhajj comes after for the people.
I deduce that the people use the new moons as a timing mechanism whatever the month; The count of the months with God is twelve months in God?s record the day He created the heavens and the Earth; four of them are restricted. (936)
The moon (alqamar) has several phases, the god deosn't let us to guess at which phase of the moon, these months started and ended (alshhurum maAAlumat/appointed months) (2197).
As for 2189, please read 7142 where Moussa is described as achieving/completing the "myqat". Hence, similar to 7142, "mawaqit" in 2189 is talking about the timing for completion of "7ajj" NOT the beginning of "7ajj".
I disagree because"mawaqit" doesn't imply only the end of an appointed time, notice that the god uses the verb "amma/he completes" before "meeqatu rabbihi/the appointed time of his Lord". This appointed time has a beginning and an end.
Another example, the same word is used in 4103
the salat for the believers is a book at the times appointed. These times are explained in the light of the reading; the begenning and the end for the salat at dawn and the salat at dusk.Brother, there is no problem if we diverge about our understanding.
Let us take time of reflexion before continuing this debate.
Peace
Marie
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Peace Ayman and Idolfree,
Prove that the change is not drastic for the southern hemisphere, then you have a point. One cannot equate salaat times with that because a fundamental change is the hot season in the northern hemisphere corresponds to winter from where I am i.e. the southern tropics. I am not buying your arguments for the time being.
Regards
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Peace be upon you Ayman,
At this stage, I think that the etymology of the word "ramadhan" suggests that it is the time when the sun is at its highest point of the year (scorching/smallest shadow) and the days are longest and this happens on the summer solstice. Hence, the first full-moon after the summer solstice would be the full-moon of "ramadhan". There are other signs that talk about the relationship between the sun and the shadow as one of "guide". As for the "scorcher/bright/penetrating", it could describe many things other than Sirius.
Yes, I agree that it is summer solstice, I only mention sirius because I was under the assumption that Sirius comes just before the summer solstice.
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Peace be upon you Mozmahe,
Prove that the change is not drastic for the southern hemisphere, then you have a point. One cannot equate salaat times with that because a fundamental change is the hot season in the northern hemisphere corresponds to winter from where I am i.e. the southern tropics. I am not buying your arguments for the time being.
Please elaborate on the drastic change, I am not sure what you mean. Are you saying that it is not so because it is not hot everywhere at the same time? I am not following, please clarify so I can try to answer.
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salams,
i think we're getting carried away here with the meaning of ramadan. the meaning of the word indicates severe heat, and here we are talking about solstices and sirius.
You would think that if such were the case, there would be some other detail in the Quran. Some mention of the sun or something other than the word ramadan that from every source I have seen, was the name of a calendrical month BEFORE Islam.
SPLITTING THE UMMAH
As far as the solstice goes... why on earth would the Muslim unified ummah be split up in such a way? With half fasting one part of the year, the other half fasting the other part of the year (as the solstice is different in the different hemispheres). Not only that, but god forbid you end up at the equator cuz then you're screwed.LEXICONS?
Now if you look at the lexicons where you found the meaning severe heat... you'll also find that ramadan was the name of a month even BEFORE Islam. And in fact there was another older name for that month, but all the months were renamed at one point... It was named ramadan because in those days the month occurred when there was severe heat. This is evident in some other names of the month, such as rabee' awwal and thaani (spring).So as far as the case for the "summer solstice" goes, it is definitely not clear cut and definitely not the ONLY way to interpret the verses. And since it would entail splitting the ummah into 2 for fasting, I say it's also unfavorable.
SUMMER SOLSTICE=SCORCHING HEAT?
Not only that, but ramadan's root is severe heat, but who says severe heat MUST mean the summer solstice? Is there evidence that the Arabs followed the summer solstice? And as far as the connection between summer solstice and heat"For those of us living in latitudes north of 45 degrees, it is natural to consider the Summer Solstice as the start of summer weather as well because the three warmest months of the year are usually June, July and August. The lag in air temperature behind the solar intensity peak is due to the use of much of the Spring solar energy to melt snow and ice, heat land surfaces and warm waters from their winter chill. In continental areas such as the Canadian Prairie Provinces and American Plains States, annual temperature cycle peaks from late July to early August, whereas in the Pacific Northwest, the warmest stretch of days annually occurs from late August to early September. That extra month is required to heat the cold Pacific waters offshore."
Why longest days aren't the hottest days
Each year on June 20 or 21, the sun reaches its highest point in the Northern Hemisphere sky ? the summer solstice. Days around the time of the summer solstice are the year's longest. Even with the year's longest days, however, the hottest weather arrives about a month later for most places. The graphic here uses Chicago as an example of how the hottest weather lags the longest days of the year. This happens because even as the days grow shorter, the amount of solar heat arriving at the ground is greater than the amount of heat leaving the earth. The days continue growing hotter as heat accumulates. Weather begins cooling when the balance shifts to more heat leaving than arriving. Temperature figures here are 30-year averages."
http//www.usatoday.com/weather/walm2.htm
wassalam
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Peace,
What I am implying is very simple. Assumptions Ramadhan was the month in which the reading was revealed and Jibril brings those revelations and Jibril is an unseen being. Let us take this simple scenario During the times of the messenger, it is Ramadhan and he is receiving the revelation and for some reason he was able to go to the southern hemisphere the next day, Are you implying then that he should wait a few months to receive the revelations again. Or Jibril can only accede to the northern hemisphere at certain times and not the other. This will also mean that the night of "destiny" is not fixed.
Regards
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Peace be upon you all,
I am not sure what the issue is regarding timing. Please consider again that everyone in the world establishes thier "salaat" at dawn. The Entire world does not have dawn at the same time, so why is there a problem with abstaining being a different time?
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salam br idolfree,
salat is not at the same EXACT time because obviously that would be very inconvenient for some people to wake up 3 times during their sleep to pray and then go the whole day without praying. Obviously DAILY schedules cannot coincide precisely...
but even despite this... an amazing fact is that the aathaan goes around the world. Ever thought about that? When it is time for salat and athaan is given in one location, earth continues to rotate, each zone calls its athaan until it goes around the world. I think that's amazing. A unified Muslim ummah with an athaan that can be heard around the world like a domino effect. Same goes for breaking fast (iftaar). The iftaar that goes around the world! )
Compare that to the bizarre notion of everyone above the equator fast one part of the year, everyone below fast another part. That IS splitting the ummah CLEARLY in half. That is an unacceptable policy. AND, in my opinion, it has little or no support from the Quran either.
wassalam
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Peace be upon you Shuiab,
That sounded very fancy, but the TRUTH is that salaat times ARE NOT the same, likewise, the timing for abstaining does not need to be the same either. The "dominoe effect" excuse you gave just does not work. Further, there is no ritualistic call to salaat, calling to salaat is simpy telling others to maintain thier salaat, not posing for the cameras and singing.
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salam idolfree,
so you dont believe in the physical aspect of salat? That is another discussion... i'm not going to follow your little red herrings you like to plant in every conversation.
the point is that you dont want to physically establish salat, and you want to split the ummah in half for fasting... i dont.
ANYONE, who purports ideas that split the ummah is damaging the ummah. Pure and simple.
- And hold fast, all together, by the rope which Allah (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves; and remember with gratitude Allah's favour on you; for ye were enemies and He joined your hearts in love, so that by His Grace, ye became brethren; and ye were on the brink of the pit of Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus doth Allah make His Signs clear to you That ye may be guided.
As I have pointed out, there is overwhelming evidence and reasons AGAINST using the summer solstice for ramadan... just ONE of them is the fact that ummah would be split into 2 for fasting (there are OTHER reasons too). There IS meaning to doing things together... physical salat (which you dont believe in) and fasting.
If you are going to be so narrow-minded that you can't understand why someone across the globe won't wake up 3 times at night to pray... then what else can i tell you. i am sure my points are well taken by those who are actually looking for the answer and not just sticking to their guns.
wassalam
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Peace be upon you Shuiab,
so you dont believe in the physical aspect of salat?
If you mean PHYSICALLY opening the book that has been called "Quran", and PHYSICALLY moving my eyes across the page, then yes, it is physical. But if you mean Physically getting on the ground, then no, that is not supported by this reading(quran).
That is another discussion... i'm not going to follow your little red herrings you like to plant in every conversation.
Let me know when you are ready to discuss it. Please let the red herring comments rest, they distract from the debate.
the point is that you dont want to physically establish salat, and you want to split the ummah in half for fasting... i dont.
Nonsense. Fisrt, PROVE the traditional salaat before you start slinging accusations.
ANYONE, who purports ideas that split the ummah is damaging the ummah. Pure and simple.
You act like the UMMAH is what the sunnis do!! It is THEY who devised the sect, and we are all trying to escape it, yet you want us to remain in that sect. So keep doing what your fathers did, that is up to you, I know better and can prove it.
- And hold fast, all together, by the rope which Allah (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves; and remember with gratitude Allah's favour on you; for ye were enemies and He joined your hearts in love, so that by His Grace, ye became brethren; and ye were on the brink of the pit of Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus doth Allah make His Signs clear to you That ye may be guided.
As I have pointed out, there is overwhelming evidence and reasons AGAINST using the summer solstice for ramadan... just ONE of them is the fact that ummah would be split into 2 for fasting (there are OTHER reasons too). There IS meaning to doing things together... physical salat (which you dont believe in) and fasting.
So is salaat split in 5? You need to have patience and do more studying and less "just believing".
If you are going to be so narrow-minded that you can't understand why someone across the globe won't wake up 3 times at night to pray... then what else can i tell you. i am sure my points are well taken by those who are actually looking for the answer and not just sticking to their guns.
Yes, it is only a matter of time before the insults come You will ALWAYS have doubt when you thinnk about how salaat times are different around tthe world, but you want abstaining to be the same.
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Peace brother Shuaib, all,
ANYONE, who purports ideas that split the ummah is damaging the ummah. Pure and simple.
- And hold fast, all together, by the rope which Allah (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves; and remember with gratitude Allah's favour on you; for ye were enemies and He joined your hearts in love, so that by His Grace, ye became brethren; and ye were on the brink of the pit of Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus doth Allah make His Signs clear to you That ye may be guided.
As I have pointed out, there is overwhelming evidence and reasons AGAINST using the summer solstice for ramadan... just ONE of them is the fact that ummah would be split into 2 for fasting (there are OTHER reasons too). There IS meaning to doing things together... physical salat (which you dont believe in) and fasting.
There is no doubt that we should not divide ourselves (for example into sects). However, unity is a natural outcome of holding to the rope of Allah NOT of holding to the fantasies and falsehoods of sectarians.
Despite abstaining in the same time every year, we see that the so-called "ummah" (whatever that means) that you refer to is FAR from united and hence abstaining on the same time didn't help anything. Similarly, sectarians can be seen bowing and putting their forehead on the floor at the same time and yet they are far from united and even if they stand on their head or do any other acrobatics at the same time, I doubt that it will unite them.
Therefore the only thing you prove by appealing to the unity of the so-called "ummah" is that you have been listening to such empty slogans for a long time and you are simply blindly repeating them.
The ONLY way to unity is to hold to the rope of The God, the Truth wherever that leads us and NOT by holding to sectrian false traditions.
Salam,
Ayman
