Isa is the prophet ; Jesus is not
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Are you stating that the appearance of one man(isa) was placed on another(jesus)? I disagree. Instead, the God gave those before us the VERY SAME SIMILITUDE, that we must KILL our MINDS(nafs) so that he God's MIND can direct us.
In other words, we have to die from the base desires(shayteen).Idol, I understand you perfectly.
The reason for my posting is to identify between Isa and Jesus in accordance with 004 157. Do you mean to say ISA is not the name of a person, say a prophet's; but isa is just a word that carries some mystical analogy? BY that do you mean to say isa means having shyteen predominantly in one's mind which was killed and the soul rose to the level of malaika? Very weird! If so, tell me the analogies for maryam, Allah, musa, ibrahim and the rest of the names we find in the Book too! I am waiting to hear all your analogies of all the names which according to you are personified in The Book, Al Kitab!
drfazl
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Peace be upon you MQ,
wow man, you've got this Isaa system well under your thumb, it seems. Please tell me about Maryam and what she represents ?
Thanks bro, it works for me
Regarding Mary, the WOMB whch creates Isa, I understand her to represent the MIND(nafs) , which is a feminine word (unless I am mistaken). It is the MIND that concieves the "virgin birth" because the God's ruh(divine energy) impregnates it with the new idea/word(Isa). We have to leave tradition (Mary went to a place in the east and shielded herself from family). Once we remove the preconcieved ideas of tradition, the God's ruh can speak clearly to us. At first it is scary and one wishes that they could go back to life before they became concious(birthpains), but the God assures us that this state of "garden" is best because we have rivers flowing beneath us and fruit always on hand. When we return to our families, they ask us what is going on with us, we do not respond from our own accord, we let the new idea/word (isa) of the God speak. It is only the newly formed idea/word that can speak in infancy, not human babies.
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Peace be upon you Doctor,
BY that do you mean to say isa means having shyteen predominantly in one's mind which was killed and the soul rose to the level of malaika? Very weird!
Why do you ask me to clarify something, then call me wierd at the same time without having heard the clarification?
I hope you can muster a little more patience than that brother.
I have expained my position in the last post to brother MQ.
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Peace Idolfree
You denounce isa, maryam as man or woman; and likewise all other prophets too, as persons. Then enlighten me with your understranding from quran on the following
Allah, musa, ibrahim and the rest of the names we find in the Book. I am eagerly waiting to hear all your analogies of all the names which according to you, if I have understood you correct, are personified in The Book, Al Kitab! You can give your explanations on one at a time, though not about all in the same post.
drfazl
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Salaamun alaikum,
Regarding Mary, the WOMB whch creates Isa, I understand her to represent the MIND(nafs) , which is a feminine word (unless I am mistaken). It is the MIND that concieves the "virgin birth" because the God's ruh(divine energy) impregnates it with the new idea/word(Isa). We have to leave tradition (Mary went to a place in the east and shielded herself from family). Once we remove the preconcieved ideas of tradition, the God's ruh can speak clearly to us. At first it is scary and one wishes that they could go back to life before they became concious(birthpains), but the God assures us that this state of "garden" is best because we have rivers flowing beneath us and fruit always on hand. When we return to our families, they ask us what is going on with us, we do not respond from our own accord, we let the new idea/word (isa) of the God speak. It is only the newly formed idea/word that can speak in infancy, not human babies
Kyle, well done with this, brother. Remember also that 41/53 tells us that God's ayaat in the horizons and OUR SELVES will make clear that the Quran is ultimate truth. Maryam and Isa are 'ayaat' in the Quran and so therefore must reflect in our selves as well. Makes perfect sense.
Isa and Maryam DO achieve the garden in this life as well (23/50) and Isaa does overcome his enemies in Bani Israil (61/14)
Please also tell us what you think of Isa's 'ahmad' prophecy (61/6).
Well done, brother.
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Salaamun alaikum Dr,
You denounce isa, maryam as man or woman; and likewise all other prophets too, as persons. Then enlighten me with your understranding from quran on the following
Allah, musa, ibrahim and the rest of the names we find in the Book. I am eagerly waiting to hear all your analogies of all the names which according to you, if I have understood you correct, are personified in The Book, Al Kitab! You can give your explanations on one at a time, though not about all in the same post.DrFazl, remember that Allah says the stories in the Quraan are 'ibratun lil ulil albaab' (12/111). 'Ibraat' means 'archetypes', i.e. higher examples of living truths. All these personalities lived as human beings, no doubt, but Allah chose to capture them into a book which displays the highest truths about humankind.
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Salaamun alaikum Dr
DrFazl, remember that Allah says the stories in the Quraan are 'ibratun lil ulil albaab' (12/111). 'Ibraat' means 'archetypes', i.e. higher examples of living truths. All these personalities lived as human beings, no doubt, but Allah chose to capture them into a book which displays the highest truths about humankind.
mquran peace,
They are true news from Allah ; not stories as you say.
What is your understanding of the phrase "higher examples of living truths". You accept all those personalities lived as human beings without doubt. I agree with you. But bro idolfree does not accept them as humanbeings and has serious doubts regarding the same.012111
It is no invented story but a confirmation of the existing and a detailed explanation of everything, and a guidance and a mercy for folk who believe.drfazl
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Peace Dr. Fazl,
What does it matter if they really existed or not? Is it not the guidance that is most important? Here, Kyle has displayed a method of interpretation that reveals deeper guidance than a face-value historical account, yet you ridicule his approach. What is the goal of this position?
Peace,
Tay -
Peace
TayGuidance is all important I agree. I am not opposing anyone's interpretation; for each has his way, is what i believe. Coming to the point you raised "What does it matter if they(Isa and Jesus) really existed or not? Is it not the guidance that is most important? "
Isa if some abstract phenomenon, it is no guidance for the human knowledge which is largely worldly. For, they are a fallen society to whom a prophet is sent of their own form as the greatest sign from allah for real; their wisdom is at a low; for them to beleive in Allah's Wisdom, they need to see the reality of it through demonstration from their own kind for their enlightenment so that hey see the Light, Al Noor; it is essential guidance, a helping hand, for a society whose wisdom then was in a position that they can only believe in what they see through their eyes alone. So Isa can not be an abstract entity but a real person; his society spoken of in quran is real and not ghost society(it is not ridiculing anyone but a simple expression); but existed!
The real goal of my posting is to drive the point that we shall realize the reality of our existence as human beings in form and shape; not as an analogy to something mystic. You yourselves are believers in knowledge(visible part such as reading and writing) prinicipally to get at the wisdom(unseen, analogy)! Here I draw your attention to the fact that the quran is sent down on a people who are pagans and cannot understand a thing, unlike you and kyle, the most Bestowed with scientific excellence and mathematical precision; and with the best education standards of the highest degree. Brothers like you, if try explaining that we, human beings are not having any form and shape and declare some analogy to the same, still I will oppose it humbly, unless you satisfy me. Yet you might ask me what my inner aim is as to opposing to anything that you say? Simple! Satisfy me if you have substance free from conjecture! Let us march our way to Wisdom; We are Free Minds still. Not yet become Freak Minds(yet again, a reminder no offence intended)
drfazl
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Peace Dr. Fazl,
Thank you for the thoughtful reply. Just to be clear, I do not endorse nor deny the view in question. I do, however, see the wisdom in it.
Isa if some abstract phenomenon, it is no guidance for the human knowledge which is largely worldly.
I disagree. If Isa was in fact a man sent with a message, then let's think about the statistics of what it is you're implying. Of all the people who have ever heard of Isa ibn Maryam throught the ages, what percentage would you say had firsthand knowledge of his existence? How many people can a person living 2000 years ago reach? Yet his wisdom lives on in the hearts of billions. So the life of the man is not important, but the message is. The guidance has remained, whether or not the man ever existed.
The real goal of my posting is to drive the point that we shall realize the reality of our existence as human beings in form and shape; not an analogy to something mystic.
That's fine and noble. But no one is denying the reality of our own existence.
Here i draw your attention to the fact that the quran is sent down on a people who are pagans and cannot understand a thing, unlike you and kyle, the most Bestowed with scientific excellence and mathematical precision;
I do not understand what you're getting at. At first glance, it seems you're being sarcastic. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Brothers like you, if try explaining that we are not having any form and shape and declare some analogy, still i will oppose it humbly.
I'm not sure where you're drawing your assumptions from, but surely it is not from my posts. Please elaborate.
Yet you may ask what is my inner aim to opposing to anything that you say?
I would not. Opposition is fine, and it's refining. Tone is what I oppose.
Shed the pride is the way to Wisdom
Agreed, likewise.
We are Free Minds still! Not yet become Freak Minds(yet again, a reminder no offence intended)!
Insulting and then saying "no offense" is clever, but not humble.
May peace be upon you,
Tay -
drfazlIsa if some abstract phenomenon, it is no guidance for the human knowledge which is largely worldly.
Tay I disagree. If Isa was in fact a man sent with a message, then let's think about the statistics of what it is you're implying. Of all the people who have ever heard of Isa ibn Maryam throught the ages, what percentage would you say had firsthand knowledge of his existence? How many people can a person living 2000 years ago reach?
My point is not these at all. I am least interested in the statistics.
Tay Yet his wisdom lives on in the hearts of billions.
I disagree. If they, the billions have Wisdom in their hearts, they will not be carrying the cross about their necks. They are still on the knowledge-side. They are believing only in them as magics not as Wisdom of Allah; unable even to understand that they could perform too, the same signs Isa showed, or even more than what Isa showed. For, Wisdom has no boundaries that it shall make our lives eternally and unbelievably eventful.
Tay So the life of the man is not important, but the message is. The guidance has remained, whether or not the man ever existed.
Unless there is real life, the message shall not be believed; if not the man called isa existed there is no message either; for it is not a story but a history of Isa, the man that existed in the form and shape as you and me are existing today; allah hasn't lied when he was speaking about Isa being a man like you. Only if you believe Isa was a man, you can follow him and hope to seek more and more of wisdom from Allah than he, Isa s.a.w.
drfazl The real goal of my posting is to drive the point that we shall realize the reality of our existence as human beings in form and shape; not an analogy to something mystic.
Tay That's fine and noble. But no one is denying the reality of our own existence.
I am done as far this segment is concerned and I thank God.
drfazl Here i draw your attention to the fact that the quran is sent down on a people who are pagans and cannot understand a thing, unlike you and kyle, the most Bestowed with scientific excellence and mathematical precision;
Tay I do not understand what you're getting at. At first glance, it seems you're being sarcastic. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
You are highly knowledgeable trying to get a glance at wisdom; and are of some standard for high appreciation when compared to the pagans, no doubt at all. No sarcasm.
drfazl Brothers like you, if try explaining that we are not having any form and shape and declare some analogy, still i will oppose it humbly.
Tay I'm not sure where you're drawing your assumptions from, but surely it is not from my posts. Please elaborate.
Not from your posts
drfazl Yet you may ask what is my inner aim to opposing to anything that you say?
Tay I would not. Opposition is fine, and it's refining. Tone is what I oppose.
Have an analogy on the tone, please. It is not tone of emotion; but one of expression, simple
drfazl Shed the pride is the way to Wisdom
Tay Agreed, likewise.
Agreed, Likewise.
drfazl We are Free Minds still! Not yet become Freak Minds(yet again, a reminder no offence intended)!
Tay Insulting and then saying "no offense" is clever, but not humble.
Hmmmm... Sorry.
May peace be upon you,
drfazl -
Peace drfazl,
My point is not these at all. I am least interested in the statistics.
Let's backtrack a bit. You stated, "Isa if some abstract phenomenon, it is no guidance for the human knowledge which is largely worldly."
So if Isa was not a real person, the guidance attributed to him is irrelevant. But I ask you, how can you confirm that Jesus really existed? How can anyone who has lived the last 1900+ years? Yet here we are discussing his guidance.
I disagree. If they, the billions have Wisdom in their hearts, they will not be carrying the cross about their necks. They are still on the knowledge-side. They are believing only in them as magics not as Wisdom of Allah;
I agree to disagree, as I will not take the liberty in assuming the worst. Wearing a symbol, to me, does not denote a lack of wisdom. Wisdom is judged by it's results, and in general, these symbol carriers are taking care of their families, honoring their agreements, and living in fear of a recompense. The symbol is and has long been a cultural phenomenon.
Unless there is real life, the message shall not be believed;
I disagree. The message is believed if it is displayed well and sought. How else would you explain the phenomenon of mythology, fables, parables, etc.? The moral of the story is what is important, and the moral is always found by the seeking mind. The truth does not change.
You and I were not in the desert caves when Muhammad was granted Divine revelation. We were not there when he shared the message. We were not there when the Qur'an was compiled. We don't know the names of the compilers. We know very little, firsthand. Yet we believe the Qur'an is the word of Allah. Why is that? It is because the wisdom shines through the pages of the book. It does not need to be tied to any physical reality. The wisdom transcends physical reality.
Allah hasn't lied when he was speaking about Isa being a man like you.
Agreed.
You are highly knowledgeable trying to get a glance at wisdom; and are of some standard for high appreciation when compared to the pagans, no doubt at all. No sarcasm.
I thank you for the kind words, but I disagree. I am merely a humble student, trying to find the balance between logic and spirituality, mind and heart, reason and passion. These are the tools Allah granted us to find the truth.
Have an analogy on the tone, please. It is not tone of emotion; but one of expression, simple
How could I possibly differentiate between one's emotion and expression? Is expression not the representation of emotion?
Peace,
Tay -
Salams all,
Allow me to add my thoughts, if I may.
A basic belief in Islam is that Allah has created mankind and the laws to which it must abide in order to enjoy success in this life and the hereafter. He has sent a prophet to every nation with this guidance (obviously a physical human being, how else could the message be relayed to other human beings), and all of them either were killed or enjoyed temporary success until the message was corrupted, until finally the Prophet Muhammad (p) arrived.
Like any heroes, there is guidance to be gained at looking at how those individuals lived and fought (similar to our modern day heroes)... but to claim Maryam who has been described as a great woman, under the care of the Zakariyyah, bore a child named Isa... to claim despite all these verses that "Maryam is the mind" is absolute insanity (i.e. losing touch with reality). A person who can turn even maryam into just a "mind," their brains can possibly turn anything real into something surreal.
wassalam
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Salaam Shuaib,
Kyle and I are aware that people will not always grasp these archetypes. I was always of the idea that 'al-islam' was so patriarchal, but now I realize it is not with the feminine and masculine types described by Kyle. I would not say that these descriptions and depictions are surreal, rather another level of understanding that may or may not transcend the usual.
Joe
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salam (i wont take your name since i consider it to be a rather odd handle for a muslim),
by definition, those ideas are surreal (whether you call them that or not). the rejection of the physical for the immaterial. at every turn i have seen basic physical realities turned into surreal mockeries by certain people here. it's one thing to say that you are appreciating another level of understanding in ADDITION to what is understood... but the methods in which you and others have explained these beliefs demonstrate the REJECTION of one for the other.. it's not IN ADDITION. it's a rejection of reality for surreal concepts.
wassalam
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Peace All,
It's clear that some, or perhaps most, need to view the references to past personalties as literal, historical context. It is also clear that some do not need to see it that way.
To each his own, I say. Whether it is literal or symbolic, the guidance remains. The balanced way, I would think, is to look at both sides of the coin. That way, you get a double-dose of guidance.
But why must people insist that their view is the right view, or that any differing view is the wrong view? Tack on a bit of disguised patronism and you have the ingredients for a war.
Peace,
Tay -
salams,
i have seen this comment on the forum several times... to each his own. To you your belief and to me mine.
This is what Muslims say to non-believers.. not to each other! Muslims all need to be on the same page, at least on the very basic elements of our deen.
The fact of the matter is, brother Tay, whether you realize it or not.. that traditionalists have indeed done much harm to Islam. Their extreme literal interpretations and lack of reasoning are the direct reason why Muslims suffer today.
As a reaction, unfortunately, it seems some Muslims want to go to the other extreme... not taking anything literally, and believing EVERYTHING is an anology. EVERYTHING is an allegory.
The fact of the matter is that human beings received Allah's guidance through Prophets who ALSO happened to be human beings just like us except that they received wahi. This is a BASIC tenet of Islam that all Muslims are REQUIRED to believe. the Quran DOES refer to past individual human beings such as the Prophets, Maryam, Pharoah, etc... past nations aad thamood etc. The Quran was sent to people (us) through people (Prophets) in order to guide humankind.
AFTER acceptance of this fact, if someone thinks they have additional insights, then by all means they can provide them. But whatever "insights" I have seen, are not in addition... they are in rejection of these facts.
This extreme level of surrealism is not supported by the Quran, and is potentially damaging to Islam.
wassalam