Pork and it's by-products or just the meat?
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If you slaughter something in the name of God then the name of God is justice/mercy/goodliness. That's saying "this meat has been certified to be of such great quality that God himself has approved of it". So yes Emil has a very profound and important point.
One must take care with this entire issue as well because if you fall on the wrong side knowingly then you would be committing shirk. So what does 'lahm' include? Skin? Let's clarify that totally otherwise you will not be able to understand where gelatin fits into this.
Likewise with what Emil says about preservatives, etc, there is a growing trend of inserting genetically modified foodstuffs into everyday things. These are EXPLICITLY haram as per 4119 and I would recommend anyone in California to vote Yes for Proposition 37 (click for more info) which would ensure all food containing GM is explicitly labelled as so. And remember, "...The devils inspire their allies to argue with you; if you obey them, you will be idol worshipers. - 6119".
You must realise that there are two commands eat what is good AND lawful; do not destroy yourselves. The latter verse may have a context regarding spending but these two commands together mean we are certainly commanded to eat good food and good food ONLY. If food is evil/unhealthy/destructive we are prohibited from eating it. So Emil is totally correct here. As submitters to God we are responsible entirely for treating correctly the bodies that He has provided us with and one must remember that the body for you is leasehold, to God the freehold
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53 Forbidden to you is that which is already dead, and the blood, and
the meat of pig, and what was dedicated to other than God, and
that which has been strangled, and that which has been beaten
to death, and that which has fallen from a height, and that which
has been gored, and that which the wild animals have eaten from
except what you managed to rescue, and what has been slaughtered
on altars, and what you divide by the arrows of chance.This is getting a little too deep...I agree that we should eat things that are good for us...a healthy balance of vegetables, grains, meat and the like. We should not be eating up junk food all the time, and we should definitely take care of our bodies, as life is a gift.
When we get into things like genetically modified foods being unlawful or lawful, I see a line being crossed. Granted it is unhealthy for us, but that is an entirely different subject from what is stated in the Qu'ran. It has been made clear what is forbidden in the Qu'ran.
Just my opinion.
Peace,
Amina
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Peace,
By the way, fat and meat are two different things.
meats is the part of the animal that is infused with blood (red) and has a " fleshy" texture.
Bird flesh can be white or light in color.
Fat is the white part of the animal
(lipid, a constituent of fat a biological compound that is not soluble in water, e.g. a fat. The group also includes waxes, oils, sterols, triglycerides, phosphatides, and phospholipids.)
Geletin is the stuff that "Jello" is made from, you know the stuff that falls through your fingers
if you try to pick it up!Geletin is a semisolid protein a transparent protein material made from boiling animal hides, bone, and cartilage that forms a firm gel when mixed with water. Use foods, medicine, glue, photography.
Even on an experience level, I have never ordered a "fat" sandwich.
I have never went into a restaurant and asked, could I have a fat sandwich with fried onions,
peppers, mustard and ketchup please.meat is meat, fat is fat, bone is bone.
Peace O0
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Peace,
By the way, fat and meat are two different things.
meats is the part of the animal that is infused with blood (red) and has a " fleshy" texture.
Bird flesh can be white or light in color.
Fat is the white part of the animal
(lipid, a constituent of fat a biological compound that is not soluble in water, e.g. a fat. The group also includes waxes, oils, sterols, triglycerides, phosphatides, and phospholipids.)
Geletin is the stuff that "Jello" is made from, you know the stuff that falls through your fingers
if you try to pick it up!Geletin is a semisolid protein a transparent protein material made from boiling animal hides, bone, and cartilage that forms a firm gel when mixed with water. Use foods, medicine, glue, photography.
Even on an experience level, I have never ordered a "fat" sandwich.
I have never went into a restaurant and asked, could I have a fat sandwich with fried onions,
peppers, mustard and ketchup please.meat is meat, fat is fat, bone is bone.
Peace O0
LOL! This just reminds me of the days before I was Muslim. My family is from the southern U.S. and pork was a staple in our house. Pork chops, sausage, and on holidays we ate chitterlings, the intestines of the pig. Other times we would eat pigs feet (yup, boiled pigs feet), and often enjoyed pork rinds and cracklin'. The going joke was that we ate everything on the pig but the oink.
I just thought of that when you said that you have never ordered a fat sandwich.
Peace,
Amina
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I believe this topic has been discussed before, and in my view, established that 'khinzeer' does not mean 'pig/swine' at all. If it does, then there are internal contradictions in the Quran, and the Quran should not be interpreted in a manner which renders it as internally contradictory.
55-6 - They ask thee what is made lawful for them. Say, ?All good things have been made lawful for you; and what you have taught the beasts and birds of prey to catch for you, training them for hunting and teaching them of what Allah has taught you. So eat of that which they catch for you, and pronounce thereon the name of Allah. And fear Allah. Surely, Allah is quick in reckoning.? This day all good things have been made lawful for you. And the food of the People of the Book is lawful for you, and your food is lawful for them.
6147 - And to those who are Jews, We forbade all animals having claws, and of the oxen and the sheep and goats did We forbid them their fats, save that which their backs bear or the intestines, or that which is mixed with a bone. That is the reward We gave them for their rebellion. And most surely We are truthful.
394 - All food was lawful to the children of Israel, except what Israel forbade himself before the Torah was sent down. Say, ?Bring, then, the Torah and read it, if you are truthful.?
4161 - So, because of the transgression of the Jews, We forbade them pure things which had been allowed to them, and also because of their hindering many men from Allah?s way.
16119 - And to those also who are Jews, We forbade before this all that We have related to thee. And We wronged them not, but they used to wrong themselves.
Based on the verses above, whatever is lawful for Muslims is lawful for the People of the Book and vice versa. 55-6 are the sum total of what was forbidden to Jews. As pigs do not have claws, pigs are not on the list. While I have seen some fall into debate about what type of feet pigs have, such a debate is irrelevant since 55-6 also state that the sole reason for these prohibitions was rebellion. Unless Muslims wish to be a party to such rebellion, the above prohibitions do not apply to them.
As the word 'khinz' literally refers to something as 'foul', khinzeer may just be a reference to contaminated, rotting, decaying, unclean meat generally, and not to a specific animal which, later, came to be called 'khinzeer'. In Leviticus and Deuteronomy, the equivalent word is 'chizer', and the reason given for prohibiting it is because it chews the cud. Apparently, along with not flying, pigs do not chew the cud.
As interpretive methodology, we should be careful when interpreting the Quran's prohibitions.
588-89 - O ye who believe! make not unlawful the good things which Allah has made lawful for you, and do not transgress. Surely, Allah loves not the transgressors. And eat of that which Allah has provided for you of what is lawful and good. And fear Allah in Whom you believe.
1060 - Say, ?Have you considered that Allah sent down provision to you, then you made some of it unlawful and some lawful?? Say, ?Has Allah permitted you that or do you invent lies against Allah?
Based on these verses, out of caution and out of respect for these verses, I am loathe to prohibit more than I should.
Moreover, I will never follow an interpretation that renders the Quran as internally consistent, and, as noted above, if 'khinzeer' means 'pig/swine', the Quran is internally inconsistent.
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I believe this topic has been discussed before, and in my view, established that 'khinzeer' does not mean 'pig/swine' at all. If it does, then there are internal contradictions in the Quran, and the Quran should not be interpreted in a manner which renders it as internally contradictory.
55-6 - They ask thee what is made lawful for them. Say, ?All good things have been made lawful for you; and what you have taught the beasts and birds of prey to catch for you, training them for hunting and teaching them of what Allah has taught you. So eat of that which they catch for you, and pronounce thereon the name of Allah. And fear Allah. Surely, Allah is quick in reckoning.? This day all good things have been made lawful for you. And the food of the People of the Book is lawful for you, and your food is lawful for them.
6147 - And to those who are Jews, We forbade all animals having claws, and of the oxen and the sheep and goats did We forbid them their fats, save that which their backs bear or the intestines, or that which is mixed with a bone. That is the reward We gave them for their rebellion. And most surely We are truthful.
394 - All food was lawful to the children of Israel, except what Israel forbade himself before the Torah was sent down. Say, ?Bring, then, the Torah and read it, if you are truthful.?
4161 - So, because of the transgression of the Jews, We forbade them pure things which had been allowed to them, and also because of their hindering many men from Allah?s way.
16119 - And to those also who are Jews, We forbade before this all that We have related to thee. And We wronged them not, but they used to wrong themselves.
Based on the verses above, whatever is lawful for Muslims is lawful for the People of the Book and vice versa. 55-6 are the sum total of what was forbidden to Jews. As pigs do not have claws, pigs are not on the list. While I have seen some fall into debate about what type of feet pigs have, such a debate is irrelevant since 55-6 also state that the sole reason for these prohibitions was rebellion. Unless Muslims wish to be a party to such rebellion, the above prohibitions do not apply to them.
As the word 'khinz' literally refers to something as 'foul', khinzeer may just be a reference to contaminated, rotting, decaying, unclean meat generally, and not to a specific animal which, later, came to be called 'khinzeer'. In Leviticus and Deuteronomy, the equivalent word is 'chizer', and the reason given for prohibiting it is because it chews the cud. Apparently, along with not flying, pigs do not chew the cud.
As interpretive methodology, we should be careful when interpreting the Quran's prohibitions.
588-89 - O ye who believe! make not unlawful the good things which Allah has made lawful for you, and do not transgress. Surely, Allah loves not the transgressors. And eat of that which Allah has provided for you of what is lawful and good. And fear Allah in Whom you believe.
1060 - Say, ?Have you considered that Allah sent down provision to you, then you made some of it unlawful and some lawful?? Say, ?Has Allah permitted you that or do you invent lies against Allah?
Based on these verses, out of caution and out of respect for these verses, I am loathe to prohibit more than I should.
Moreover, I will never follow an interpretation that renders the Quran as internally consistent, and, as noted above, if 'khinzeer' means 'pig/swine', the Quran is internally inconsistent.
But swine was forbidden in the early books of the Bible, as you wrote.
Leviticus 117 states And the pig, though it has a split hoof completely divided, does not chew the cud; it is unclean for you.
Seems to me whether or not a reason is given, it states in the Bible that it is unclean period, no matter what category it falls into physically. They were not to eat it.
What I want to know is how in the world other knowledgeable Arabic speaking/reading people manage to interpret that as "pork is forbidden" yet a few have this uncanny ability to break a word down and come up with a totally different meaning.
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Peace redsulphur1229.
Yes you are right, we must not forbid what GOD has made lawful.
You are also right Qoran is consistent.
Let us then ask the following questions
Are we sure " Khinzir" does not mean pork? ( beyond any doubt)
Are we sure " Khinzir " is not forbidden in both books of " people of the book"?
Once one is sure , beyond any doubt, then you have a point.
Meantime , one should stay with their current understanding . Also we keep studying, improving our knowledge and trusting in GOD to guide us to HIS truth.
Peace.
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Greetings and Peace, all group
Whatever the meaning of , it also has to fit in 560.
560 Say "Shall I inform you of worse than this as a punishment from GOD? Those whom GOD cursed and became angry at them, and He made from them apes and pigs and servants of evil. Those have a worse place and are more astray from the right path."
It may be that there is a different meaning other than pig/swine. It remains to be persuasively demonstrated. I don't want to be pigheaded <snort> ) but it seems that "pigs" follows well in 560 after "apes" is mentioned.
May ALLAH see fit to Guide all seekers.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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I am not saying anyone "should" eat pork or anything else for that matter. What I am struggling with is whether "khinzeer" actually means pig/swine. To say that the Bible clearly prohibits pork is to fall into the same problem as the word is "chizer" who chew the cud - pigs don't chew the cud. As a result, the question is open as to whether the Bible also actually prohibits pork. If their rabbis say it does, it appears as if our imams have just followed course, but that does not make the rabbis or our imams correct necessarily. I certainly do not let other people's views dictate my faith.
Regardless of the Bible, if we believe in the Quran, we need to take it at its word regarding what was prohibited to the People of the Book, and strangely, pork is not on the list. If pork is not on the list, then how to explain the contradiction if "khinzeer" means pig/swine?
In the face of a contradiction, then one needs to investigate the particular Arabic word, which necessarily means breaking the word down. I have noticed that some are quite resistant to the exercise of actually trying to uncover the meaning of a Quranic word, and prefer to hold on to conventional interpretations/translations, even when such interpretations compromise the consistency of the Quran itself. If someone can show me that the Quran lists pig/swine as prohibited to the People of the Book, then I need not question the conventional translation of 'khinzeer.'
I merely note the apparent internal inconsistency and, therefore, honestly and in good faith, search for a way of solving that inconsistency. Isn't it a requirement that the Quran be interpreted as such?