The KAABA is not A Man-Made Structure

cleanfox5982

Salam ,

I believe there are many singes ( ayat &#1578 in the Quran in witch Allah will guide some to . for our topic one of the key to know the location of Al-Kaa'ba ( ) Al-Bayet Al-Haram ( &#1605 is mentioned in

3-96 Indeed, the first House established for people was that at Bakkah - blessed and a guidance for the worlds.
3-97 In it are clear signs the standing of Abrahim. And whoever enters it shall be safe. And to Allah from the people is a pilgrimage to the House - for whoever is able to find thereto a way. But whoever disbelieves - then indeed, Allah is free from need of the worlds.

The standing (Makam ) of Abraham was wrongly explained and associated to a foot print .

I understand from the verse two possibilities

that the the standing (Makam ) of Abrahim is one of the sign ( ayat &#1578 of Al-bayet (&#1578
That (Makam ) of Abrahim is the Al-Bayet Al-Haram ( &#1605 itslef

I most likely think of the second case that Al-Bayet (&#1578 itself is the (Makam )

The other important key is the place named Bakkah ( )

Abrahim was to stand there to make the system ( Al-deen &#1606 and Abrahim was King

2-258 Have you not considered the one who argued with Abraham about his Lord because Allah had given him kingship? When Abraham said, "Rabbi is the one who gives life and causes death," he said, "I give life and cause death." Abraham said, "Indeed, Allah brings up the sun from the east, so bring it up from the west." So the disbeliever was overwhelmed , and Allah does not guide the wrongdoing people.

4-54 Or do they envy people for what Allah has given them of His bounty? But we had already given the family of Abraham the Scripture and wisdom and conferred upon them a great kingdom.

Abrahim was a very known person in ancient history , and so the place of his kingship and where he used to make the system of Allah.

good_logic

Peace Alkitab .

Please double check

In The one given the kingship is not Abraham?

As the verse goes on to say" I give life and cause death" clarifies the one debating had the power" was the king" not Abraham.

Peace.

noshirk

Peace All

I accepted the interpretation of brother ayman that Hajj is a kind of debate.
It is all kind of people (Nass) and not only believers (moominin) who are asked to participate.

In each debate, there is a kind of podium where speakers can stand up (Kiyyam)
The kaab of the foot (verse 56) can help us to understand kaab as protuberance

So i think that kaaba is simply the podium where speakers can argue and where abraham stand up to give his speech.
I see no reason to consider that Kaaba cannot be fabricated if there is no natural elevated place where the bayt haram is built/arranged.

Notice that the expression "first bayt" in 3-96 shows that bayt haram is not unique.
it is logical since it is impossible to gather all participants of the world in only place.
The situation nowadays of quotas by country for the false kaaba shows the aberration of considering that bayt of haram should be unique

I think also that bayt haram should be in an easy reachable place. Why complicate things for participants ?
see 14-37 where quran speak of a valley with no vegetation near (or where there is ?) the sacred house.

Concerning the word nasb, i will only remark that nasba, nowadays, means a kind of exhibit where ambulant vendors display their products for sale.

Peace

ayman

Peace Noshirk,

I accepted the interpretation of brother ayman that Hajj is a kind of debate.
It is all kind of people (Nass) and not only believers (moominin) who are asked to participate.
In each debate, there is a kind of podium where speakers can stand up (Kiyyam)
The kaab of the foot (verse 56) can help us to understand kaab as protuberance
So i think that kaaba is simply the podium where speakers can argue and where abraham stand up to give his speech.
I see no reason to consider that Kaaba cannot be fabricated if there is no natural elevated place where the bayt haram is built/arranged.
Notice that the expression "first bayt" in 3-96 shows that bayt haram is not unique.
it is logical since it is impossible to gather all participants of the world in only place.
The situation nowadays of quotas by country for the false kaaba shows the aberration of considering that bayt of haram should be unique
I think also that bayt haram should be in an easy reachable place. Why complicate things for participants ?
see 14-37 where quran speak of a valley with no vegetation near (or where there is ?) the sacred house.
Concerning the word nasb, i will only remark that nasba, nowadays, means a kind of exhibit where ambulant vendors display their products for sale.

My view is that the word "hajj" means "feast". This is also the meaning in Hebrew and how the people of the book understood the word.

The "debate" meaning was my old view many years ago but now I acknowledge that it was wrong.

Peace,

Ayman

cleanfox5982

Peace Alkitab .

Please double check

In The one given the kingship is not Abraham?

As the verse goes on to say" I give life and cause death" clarifies the one debating had the power" was the king" not Abraham.

Peace.

Salam Member good logic ,

I know that the explanation that were given to that verse is that the kingship is given in that verse to the one who argued with Abrahim , but as per the context of the speech and connected to another verse (4-54 ) all this give me the understanding that is Abrahim who is meant to be the one being given the kingship in that verse , but that doesn't deny that possibly the other guy was king too or someone who hold power or simply a ordinary man not fearing to kill for no reason , why i understand it so

Have you not considered the one who argued with Abrahim about his Rabb(Lord) because Allah had given him kingship? When Abraham said, "My Lord is the one who gives life and causes death," he said, "I give life and cause death." Abraham said, "Indeed, Allah brings up the sun from the east, so bring it up from the west." So the disbeliever was overwhelmed , and Allah does not guide the wrongdoing people.

The guy was arguing with Abrahim about his Rabb ( lord), because Allah give the kingship to Abrahim , where we say that Abrahim was given Kingship

4-54 Or do they envy people for what Allah has given them of His bounty? But we had already given the family of Abrahim the Scripture and wisdom and conferred upon them a great kingdom.

Where we know that the family of Abrahim / where kings , from Jospeh/Yusus son Jacob/Yaa'kub son of Abrahim/

12-101 My Lord, You have given me from Kingship and taught me of the interpretation of dreams. Creator of the heavens and earth, You are my protector in this world and in the Hereafter. Cause me to die a Muslim and join me with the righteous."

good_logic

Peace Alkitab .

No, Sorry. " him" in the verse is the " one who argued with Abraham". It is not both.

You will have to find another verse where it says " Abraham was given the kingship" not his descendants, for your argument/view to hold.

Check again.
Peace.

noshirk

salam brother ayman

My view is that the word "hajj" means "feast". This is also the meaning in Hebrew and how the people of the book understood the word.

The "debate" meaning was my old view many years ago but now I acknowledge that it was wrong.

i think it is both. It is a feast or festival where debates are organized.
The main reason for the feast is the religious debate.

I don't know what Hajj mean in hebrew but this word is so clear in arabic (see 3-66,6-80,42-16,45-25).
Only debators are making Hajj. All other participants are making only omra.

salam

Wilson

Peace.

The main reason for the feast is the religious debate.

(Free-Minds translation but choose any translation you want)

And We have appointed to Abraham the location of the Dwelling ?Do not set up anyone with Me, and purify My Dwelling for those who visit, and those who are standing, and the kneeling, the prostrating.?
And call out to the people with the Pilgrimage, they will come to you walking and on every transport, they will come from every deep enclosure.
So that they may witness benefits for themselves and recall God?s name in the appointed days over what He has provided for them of the animal livestock. So eat from it and feed the needy and the poor.
Then let them complete their duties and fulfill their vows, and let them traverse at the ancient Dwelling.

There are simply two primary purposes

To witness benefits (as is normal in any large gathering of people from different places/cultures which provides benefits such as trade and exchange of ideas)
To remember the god's name on the livestock and eat from it and feed the poor.

I don't know what Hajj mean in hebrew but this word is so clear in arabic (see 3-66,6-80,42-16,45-25).
Only debators are making Hajj.

First and foremost the Hebrew meaning of "feast" clearly fits the context of hagg/hajj in the great reading where 80% of the passages talk about food.
The concept of "hajj/hagg" existed since the time of Abraham and must have been well known to the people of the book and all people for this matter. Certainly it was known to Moses who was most likely hired as a laborer for 8 harvest feasts and not 8 "debates".
Arabic is like any human language. It didn't descend from the sky and it is relatively young compared to other Semitic languages. So it borrows heavily from other older and contemporary languages. There are many Arabic words in the great reading borrowed from foreign languages, even ones that are not Semitic like Persian, Greek and Latin. Of course Arabic borrows more heavily from Semitic languages such as Hebrew, Syriac, Sabaic, and Ethiopic. For example

minsaah/staff (3414) from Hebrew
yatasannah/changed (2259) from the Hebrew root sh-n-y/?to change?
salaam/peace (extensively used) from Hebrew
katab/write (extensively used) from Hebrew
dars/study (379, etc.) from Hebrew
sabbah/praise (extensively used) from Syriac

One has to be careful because it is often that languages share common words that may have opposite meanings when transported between languages. A famous example is ?wathab?, which means ?jump? in Arabic and ?sit? in Hebrew.

For the purpose of this discussion, I will classify foreign borrowed words into three categories

Words that failed to be Arabized and so failed to become productive roots. Examples include istabraq/silk brocade, zanjabil/ginger, firdaws/paradise, etc.
Words that had no Arabic roots but became fully Arabized and produced productive roots. Examples include jund/soldiers, hizb/faction, etc.
Words for which there were Arabic roots but not in the foreign meaning. These easily assimilated into Arabic and became productive but we got very divergent and unrelated meanings. For example, the Arabic root ?sabah? means ?to swim? (793, 2133, 3640) but ?sabbah? (borrowed from Syriac) means ?to praise?.

I believe that ?hagg/hajj? falls under the third classification where there was already an Arabic root and therefore it was easily assimilated from Hebrew. However, like the ?sabah? example above, the Arabic root was in the meaning of ?argument? while the assimilated Hebrew word had the meaning of ?feast?. This is why we got those divergent and unrelated meanings.

All other participants are making only omra.

The word "umrah" is a common concept that can mean "prosperity" or "prospering", etc. So it is used in 918, for example, do indicate that the institutions of authority ("masajid&quot of the god "prosper" only with those who have faith.

I think that the "prosper" part of the feast has to do with the purpose of the feast of witnessing benefits (222. Naturally, because people are gathered from all over for the feast, this is an opportunity to conduct business and commerce, all of which would result in prosperity. So if one enjoys prosperity in the course of the feast then one should donate whatever you can of livestock to contribute to the feast.

Abdelilah

ayman

Peace.
Abdelilah

Thank you brother and peace be upon you.

noshirk

Salaam

919 Have you made the watering of the pilgrim (HAJJ) and the "IMARA" of the Restricted Temple the same as one who believes in God and the Last Day and he strives in the cause of God? They are not the same with God. And God does not guide the wicked people.

so HAJJ and IMARA occurs at the same time and are not equal. The Hajj is striving in name of GOD.

2158 Indeed, the stone and the rock outcropping are among the symbols of God. So whoever makes HAJJ to the Sanctuary, or IIATAMARA , commits no error should he traverse them. And whoever donates for goodness, then God is Thankful, Kn

HAJJ and IITIMAR are again opposed and put in the same context of Hajj "feast"

918 Rather, YAAMOUROU the temples of God who are believers in God and the Last Day, and he upholds the contact prayer, and he contributes towards purification, and is only concerned by God. It is these that will be of the guided ones.

YAAMOUROU is here with the sense of Filling. Notice also that IMARA means in arabic a building construction (to be filled with humans).

2196 And complete the HAJJ and OMRA for God. If you are prevented, then simply provide what offering is affordable; and do not shave your heads until the offering reaches its destination. Whoever of you is ill or has an affliction to his head, then he may redeem by fasting or giving a charity or a rite. If you are secure, then whoever goes to visit, but WHO BENEFICIATE FROM OMRA TO HAJJ, he shall provide what offering is affordable; but for he who cannot find anything, then he must fast for three days during the Pilgrimage and seven when he returns; this will make a complete ten; this is for those whose family is not resident at the Restricted Temple. And be aware of God, and know that God is severe in retribution.

Notice the expression OMRA TO THE HAJJ. Wich means, for me, simple presence to the HAJJ for other reason than debating (buying food or drink for example)
And notice also that, again who is making HAJJ is not equal to who is making OMRA and have to make gifts or Siyyam.

Notice also the use of word Nass in place of word believers or muslims in verses (22-27 and 2-125). So People who are in the Hajj feast are not only muslims. HAJJ is occasion to teach islam and respond to disbelievers arguments

notice the clarity of using the verb Hajj in these verse

4216 And those who debate (YOUHAJJOUN) about God, after they had been answered, their argument is nullified at their Lord. They have incurred a wrath, and will have a severe retribution.

4525 And when Our clear revelations are recited to them, their only argument "HOJJA" is to say ?Then bring back our forefathers, if you are truthful.?

680 And his people debated (HAJJAHOU) with him. He said "Do you debate (TOHAJJOUJANI) with me regarding God, when He has guided me? I do not fear that which you have set up except if my Lord wills; my Lord encompasses all things in knowledge; will you not remember?"

So HAJJ is clearly debating and arguig during a religious feast.
Nowadays, hojjaj is still used in debating and in tribunals to mean proofs.

I think that the better dictionnay for understanding meaning of arabic words in quran is quran itself.
For the word hajj, quran dictionnary is clear.

Peace